Is it unfair to penalise a car for a pit crew error?

Edited by redreni, 16 July 2014 - 18:41.

How we didn't lose a life the other year when Wibbah's wheel went bouncing down the pitlane I really don't know.

The penalties are harsh to slow down the stops, even as a huge Lewis fan I've been very happy with the 3-4sec pitstops he's been getting this year, it's much better than 2.3 and a retirement or stop/go penalty!!

Summary: Bring back refuelling

I do think they should be a bit more lenient when the driver/team realises and stops immediately, before leaving the pit lane.

Don't agree with the logic.  Driver and team form a single entry together.  They win, lose and are penalised together.

If a driver gets a 5s penalty for causing a collision, the team suffers.  If a team gets a penalty for unsafe release, the driver suffers.

IMO, if you remove any sporting penalty for unsafe release, we'll see a lot more of them.

Yeah, I feel the double penalty of a stop go and and a 10 place grid drop is a bit harsh, but, there does have to be a punishment and it has to be one that matters. Maybe just the stop go will suffice, that could be what they suggest at this upcoming meeting. Or maybe FP time denial?

They should continue to punish drivers for unsafe release, they should do so through a drive-through if the car got going again, or a start from the pit in following race.

I do think they should be a bit more lenient when the driver/team realises and stops immediately, before leaving the pit lane.

But normally, if you leave the box without all your wheels on, you lose so much time being collected and pushed back by your mechanics that a stop-go wouldn't make any difference, and if you leave the pit lane without all your wheels on, you're out of the race.
They could do away with the stop-go and keep the 10-place grid penalty, but not the other way around.

A minimum pit stop time would stop the risk of incorrectly fitted wheels... like when we had refuelling, no rush to fit the wheels, in fact the car used to sit on the jacks waiting for the refueller... But some how I can not see refueling coming back...

If a car leaves the box with a wheel incorrectly the danger starts the minute the car starts to turn a wheel...

Now that we've got fly by wire throttles, they could have a system where the throttle pedal is automatically deactivated until all four wheelnuts are torqued up to the required amount. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement - just have the wheelnuts complete a circuit when they are properly in place.

The driver has to get a penalty that hurts / threatens to hurt his points tally, there's no way around it. A team that likes to use the rules to the fullest to get their driver an advantage would abuse it otherwise to increase the chance of winning the WDC, it doesn't make sense at all.

I'm with you on this redreni. It's tough on the driver yes, but it's equally tough on the team when a driver gets a penalty for speeding in the pit lane. If the team loses out on points when a driver makes an error, I hardly think it's unfair if the driver suffers if the pit crew carries out a bad stop.

I like your logic, I can hear the team managers rants "Why should just the team get punished, can't they punish our driver too for once?!?"

Edited by Briz, 16 July 2014 - 19:27.

My issue with the 10 place penalty is that it doesn't work as a deterrent. It's completely ineffective in making stops safer.

I think there are a few situations that need to be stamped out. Unsafe releases are one such. It will, of course, be impossible to stop things happening, but if you can reduce them as much as possible. Teams are racing and, therefore, will always take risks if there is a perceived advantage. So the only way to address this is to remove this perception.

In the case of the unsafe release, that comes down to either enforcing a minimum stop time or adopting such harsh penalties as to make teams act more carefully (so the perceived advantage is not there anymore). As has been pointed out before, the driver wins out when the pit crew do a good job and so must also lose out when they don't. So no, it's not unfair at all.

Agree with most in this thread - just tough luck on the drivers I'm afraid, the punishment needs to be large enough to ensure the teams take enough care to make sure all wheels are attached - its not that difficult, even if it delays the stop by half a second that is much better than the alternative. It does seem harsh that 2 races are affected especially if they realise and stop, but it can't be a different punishment even in that situation because, as with Marks wheel, it was as he left the box the wheel came off anyway.

Pit stops are an important part of the race stratagy (hence all these extremely quick stops) - the crews are incredibly important in this aspect (you only have to read the Lewis v Nico thread to see how critical the times of the stops are) and there has to be enough of a deterrent to make sure the teams secure the wheels, and it does work, Williams had some issues last year and as a result they had to slow down their stops.

It is a team sport. The mechanics spend hours building the cars for the drivers - if they make a mistake at that point then the driver will probably suffer a reliability problem and have to stop - or for example if the driver crashes in FP2 the team may have to stay up all night rebuilding the car, or if they crash in the race then its ruined as well - and if its due to a collision that's deemed to be the drivers fault then they will collect a grid penalty for the next race so not that dissimilar really.

Ruining 2 races for a driver for these "unsafe pit releases" which other than looking dangerous pass without incident has always seemed like overkill.

Punishing the drivers if there is a actual crash in the pits or if a car is released and driven around the track on 3 wheels is fine, but handing out the same levels of punishment because "woah that was a bit close mate" or because the car drove forward 6ft with a lose wheel nut is just dumb. The penalty needs to be proportional to the crime.

In general I think both stop and go and grid penalties are just arbitrary punishments that have never done anything to improve safety.

As long as you have 2-3 sec pitstops, and a good one might yield 1-2 or even more position gains, loose wheels will happen. The severity of the penalty will not act as a deterrent.

Edited by DaddyCool, 16 July 2014 - 20:15.

My issue with the 10 place penalty is that it doesn't work as a deterrent. It's completely ineffective in making stops safer.

Yeah, I have my doubts about this as well. From the team's perspective, letting your car go without putting all the wheels on properly is pretty disastrous for your race whether it attracts additional sanctions from the FIA or not. But in the end you're in a race in a very close and highly competitive formula, so there's also an imperative to be quick. I'm not sure the penalties we have change the risk/reward ratio enough to make the teams change their processes. Mistakes are already pretty rare. Not as rare as we'd all like, but rare enough that it would be difficult for the teams to get their unsafe releases-per-season rate down any further without costing themselves so much time that it wouldn't be worth it.

So I think the FIA could regulate to make the teams adopt a slower process that gives a window of time between the completion of the fitting of the wheels, and the release of the car. Because if a wheel isn't on properly, the wheelgun man will know that. The unsafe releases occur because the wheelgun man raises his arm or presses his button (or gives whatever signal he is supposed to give to tell the lights or lollipop man that he's done) momentarily too early, and then when he realises he isn't done, the car has already been released.

But if you say that all crewmen have to retreat behind a line that separates the slow lane from the garages before the car can be released, it's unlikely that a wheelman would stand up and move behind the line if he wasn't done. So that's a safer process. But heavy sanctions won't make the teams adopt it, only regulation will.

How about something like this? Minus the driver change, obviously, and maybe more than two crewmen allowed for the wheel changing to make it a bit faster, but the same basic idea of having to take the used wheels away ans stand clear of the car, behind the line, before it can be released.

Edited by redreni, 16 July 2014 - 20:32.

Most sensible thread about rules in a long while. Congrats to all involved.

I can think of 4scenarios for an "unsafe release":

1. Released into the path of another car - if there's only one lane available, with the number of unprotected personnel around that's not a great situation.  We haven't yet seen anything serious occur because of this, and long may that last, but I don't think we should be blase about it.  A loss of 2s to let another car go through, in the interests of safety, is not IMO "nanny state F1".  I think a meaningful penalty is important for this.  Whether both the time penalty and the grid drop are needed, I don't know - I think just the one may be sufficient here.

2. Released with a loose tyre but instantly informed and halted - I'm more relaxed on this one.  Less opportunity for injury, and the mistake kind of penalises itself.  I would be inclined to let this go.

3. Released with a loose tyre and not informed because the team does not realise its happened.  I think something similar to scenario 1 is appropriate.

4. Released with a loose tyre, informed late and decision taken to limp back to the pits.  Worst of the four IMO and at least appropriate for the "double" penalty (if not more).

I can think of 4scenarios for an "unsafe release":

 

1. Released into the path of another car - if there's only one lane available, with the number of unprotected personnel around that's not a great situation.  We haven't yet seen anything serious occur because of this, and long may that last, but I don't think we should be blase about it.  A loss of 2s to let another car go through, in the interests of safety, is not IMO "nanny state F1".  I think a meaningful penalty is important for this.  Whether both the time penalty and the grid drop are needed, I don't know - I think just the one may be sufficient here.

 

2. Released with a loose tyre but instantly informed and halted - I'm more relaxed on this one.  Less opportunity for injury, and the mistake kind of penalises itself.  I would be inclined to let this go.

 

3. Released with a loose tyre and not informed because the team does not realise its happened.  I think something similar to scenario 1 is appropriate.

 

4. Released with a loose tyre, informed late and decision taken to limp back to the pits.  Worst of the four IMO and at least appropriate for the "double" penalty (if not more).

I should have made it clear in my opening post, I think the debate is only really about loose-wheel releases, rather than releasing a car into another car's path. That's what currently carries the double penalty which has apparently upset some unnamed drivers. If all the wheels are on and you just release into another car's path, you don't get the grid penalty.

Here are the relevant regulations:

2014 F1 Sporting Regulations

23.12
a) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car from his garage or pit stop position only when it is safe to do so. The competitor must also provide a means of clearly establishing, when being viewed from the front of the car, when that car was released.
b) If a car is deemed to have been released in an unsafe condition during any practice session, the stewards may drop the driver such number of grid positions as they consider appropriate.
c) If a car is deemed to have been released in an unsafe condition during a race the driver concerned will receive a ten grid place penalty at the driver’s next Event. However, if any car released in an unsafe condition is able to resume the race a penalty under Article 16.3© will also be imposed on the driver concerned.

Edited by redreni, 16 July 2014 - 21:03.

So I think the FIA could regulate to make the teams adopt a slower process that gives a window of time between the completion of the fitting of the wheels, and the release of the car. Because if a wheel isn't on properly, the wheelgun man will know that. The unsafe releases occur because the wheelgun man raises his arm or presses his button (or gives whatever signal he is supposed to give to tell the lights or lollipop man that he's done) momentarily too early, and then when he realises he isn't done, the car has already been released.
 But if you say that all crewmen have to retreat behind a line that separates the slow lane from the garages before the car can be released, it's unlikely that a wheelman would stand up and move behind the line if he wasn't done. So that's a safer process. But heavy sanctions won't make the teams adopt it, only regulation will.
 How about something like this? Minus the driver change, obviously, and maybe more than two crewmen allowed for the wheel changing to make it a bit faster, but the same basic idea of having to take the used wheels away ans stand clear of the car, behind the line, before it can be released.

Edited by Exb, 16 July 2014 - 21:08.

I think 10-place grid penalty is fine if the wheel really bounces off the car like it did with Webber last year. But when team realizes quickly that wheel is not well attached and asks driver to stop (and driver does so) then the penalty should be smaller. Maybe like 5 grid spots and no penalty for that race.

Edited by Bleu, 16 July 2014 - 21:13.

Is it fair that one driver gets an advantage over another driver because his pit crew is better?

It's a TEAM!

I should have made it clear in my opening post, I think the debate is only really about loose-wheel releases, rather than releasing a car into another car's path. That's what currently carries the double penalty which has apparently upset some unnamed drivers. If all the wheels are on and you just release into another car's path, you don't get the grid penalty.

 

Here are the relevant regulations:

 

2014 F1 Sporting Regulations

23.12
a) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car from his garage or pit stop position only when it is safe to do so. The competitor must also provide a means of clearly establishing, when being viewed from the front of the car, when that car was released.
b) If a car is deemed to have been released in an unsafe condition during any practice session, the stewards may drop the driver such number of grid positions as they consider appropriate.
c) If a car is deemed to have been released in an unsafe condition during a race the driver concerned will receive a ten grid place penalty at the driver’s next Event. However, if any car released in an unsafe condition is able to resume the race a penalty under Article 16.3© will also be imposed on the driver concerned.

Cheers redreni - shows how much I know! 

I would say, though, that in my view that rule is almost back to front.  If a car can continue in the race, that's likely because the driver's stopped in the pitlane and been wheeled back.  That means the team identified the issue quickly and informed the driver immediately, or the driver spotted it quickly.  That's safer, surely?  So I don't get the double penalty.

Whatever the penalty should be, as per my first post IMO it affecting the driver and the team is right.  If you make this a financial thing by fining teams (the only way I can think you impact the team only - other than a loss of constructor points), teams will just view it the same way as they do developing a new front wing - spend $[X] gain 0.[Y]s.

Something similar could work - if after the pit stop all crew have to get back behind the line - most of the time it seems the mechanic who hasn't fitted the wheel knows instantly and the cars are released in error (and hence the car stops pretty quickly) so this idea would stop that issue (and it still means quick crews would keep an advantage) BUT how would it work say if a team was double stopping their cars - or would the crew only be able to come out once the car has stopped?? (also preventing the situations that occasionally happen when a driver misjudges there box and hits the mechanics)

In FIA GT the wheelmen had to wait behind the line until the car was stopped, as you can see in the video. I'd be in favour of that rule for F1 as well. It always makes me cringe when it rains and drivers have to come in on worn, cold slicks to pick up wets, and the pit lane is soaked. There's often also a change of surface from aspahlt to concrete. And the crewmen are kneeling on the floor with all their heavy gear on and wheels and equipment next to them, hampering them if they have to get out of the way, so if the driver messes it up, they're just going to get hit.

The way I'd do it, I'd allow them four crewmen and two airguns for the wheels, and they would be required to change the wheels on the garage side first, then the wheels on the other side, because that way they'd have to walk/run several paces to get back behind the line after the wheels were fitted, just to make sure they'd have plenty of time to realise their mistake if the job wasn't finished. And they'd have to stay on their feet, too, no diving over the line allowed.

I used to think it was a too harsh but now I've changed my mind. I think the driver should be penalised. That way it is more of an incentive for the team to get it right. If the team were only fined for an unsafe release.

I would like to see the FIA standardise the hub, wheel nut and wheel gun design. I think that might reduce some of the problems with getting wheels on and could save a lot of money.

I also like the idea of having all the mechanics return behind a line in the pit lane before the car can be released.

Cheers redreni - shows how much I know! 

 

 

I would say, though, that in my view that rule is almost back to front.  If a car can continue in the race, that's likely because the driver's stopped in the pitlane and been wheeled back.  That means the team identified the issue quickly and informed the driver immediately, or the driver spotted it quickly.  That's safer, surely?  So I don't get the double penalty.

 

Whatever the penalty should be, as per my first post IMO it affecting the driver and the team is right.  If you make this a financial thing by fining teams (the only way I can think you impact the team only - other than a loss of constructor points), teams will just view it the same way as they do developing a new front wing - spend $[X] gain 0.[Y]s.

Well as I say, I think the worry with the immediate penalty is that it doesn't mean anything a lot of the time, because you're likely to be stone last and lapped by the time you rejoin the race in any event, so if there isn't a SC after that, you're not going to recover, penalty or not, and if there is a SC you're going to be waved by onto the lead lap and could still get a decent result, a la Red Bull/Webber when they knocked down that cameraman, penalty or not (since the SC procedure will wipe out the additional time lost from serving the penalty).

I agree that it's not right that the penalty is intended to deter the team from releasing the car in an unsafe condition, which is something they're already trying pretty hard to avoid and certainly wouldn't do on purpose, and yet once the unsafe release has occurred and the team knows it will be penalised the same come what may, there is no further deterrant, if they've left the pits, from continuing to drive around in the hopes of making it back to the pits before the wheel comes off. A deterrant at that stage, aimed at ensuring the teams know it's better to park immediately than to try to limp home, would be more effective. It's true that the danger starts as soon as the car is released without all its wheels on, but the danger ends as soon as the car stops (unless the wheel comes off first), and the quicker the car stops, the less chance of the wheel coming off and causing any mischief, so we want to incentivise teams to react prudently if an unsafe release occurs. To use a criminological analogy, if the punishment for kidnap is the same as for murder, it's a problem, because as much as you don't want offenders to kidnap people, if they do kidnap somebody and are then surrounded by police, you want them to release the victim unharmed and surrender, rather than to kill the victim. So you have to incentivise that.

I'd say just black flag anyone that tries to complete a lap and come back to the pits having been released from a pitstop in an unsafe condition would do it. That removes the temptation. Might as well park if you know the alternative is exclusion.

Edited by redreni, 16 July 2014 - 21:48.

My issue with the 10 place penalty is that it doesn't work as a deterrent. It's completely ineffective in making stops safer.

Exactly.

They should think about limiting how many people can work on a car during pit stops, for starters. The less people going on and around, the less likely anyone will be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If they want to make pit stops safer, simply adopt a mandatory minimum stationary time. For example, any car that comes in for a tyre change must spend at least 10 seconds in place without leaving. Mechanics would be under no pressure to perform miraculously quick pit stops. It would even give more exposure to the sponsors of the stationary cars.

And before anyone complains, it's in the exact same nature of limiting pit speeds; keeping one performance aspect under controle in the pit lane in the name of safety.

Being penalised twice for the one offence is never good.

I tend to agree with the people saying that the deterrent isn't working. Having your wheel come off is a pretty big deterrent as well, but doesn't always seem to work! So yes, I think we do need to look at what happens in a pitstop and what procedures are required to be followed before a car is released. If a pitstop takes a few seconds longer as a result, I don't think it matters.

On punishing the driver/team, how would people feel if both drivers from the team had a grid penalty for the next race? After all, it's a team sport...

What? That would be tripling the penalty? Why would anyone want that?

If this is all about improving pitlane safety and stopping accidents from happening they need to change the rules of the pit stops, not give out random grid penalties after the damage has been done.

Pushing drivers down the grid does nothing to prevent pitlane accidents, if anything it only makes the chances of them happening greater by giving those drivers/teams more reason to stress about making up time during a race in order to get a good finish.

Edited by johnmhinds, 16 July 2014 - 23:22.

Fines IMO should only be handed out for wilfulness, gross neglect, etc. But not for honest mistakes. Otherwise they don't serve the intent.

At the same time I think fines are reactionary b******* and make the wrong people rich. They need to be proactive and put a system in place that avoids unsafe releases, because if someone gets hurt, it's meaningless for any victim if it was intentional or not. And if the FIA collects a fine of lets say € 20000, who pays the bills for hospitalisation or worse?

Now that we've got fly by wire throttles, they could have a system where the throttle pedal is automatically deactivated until all four wheelnuts are torqued up to the required amount. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement - just have the wheelnuts complete a circuit when they are properly in place.

Like you said I prefer any technical solution above penalties.

If the issue is to get engineers find a viable solution that would improve racing across all series, and if the authorities can't see beyond the let's hand out fines mantra, then they might continue to fine the team and hold them liable for any damage caused. Or instead of a fine. why not dock WCC points from the team? Even if a team has zero points, take 5 points away, in case of repetition another 10 points. I am pretty convinced that teams will find a solution pretty quickly, as loss in WCC points means less money for the teams.

After all it seems that according the Q&A with Charlie Whiting, the fine is there to put pressure on the team to avoid such dangerous situations. But again, don't wield the rule book to punish, but to make teams proactive

A solution I propose, put 4 holes with pressure sensors that match with 4 bolts on the wheel that need to fit. Force the drive train into idle as long as there isn't enough pressure (which also kicks in when a car is losing one or more tires because of an accident). Yes it will slow down pit stops, and it may lead to slight delays if not properly fitted (with holes that are cut out like a cone - including the matching bolts - that might be a non issue though). And I dare teams to see the upside. The faster the pit stops, the more sponsors are unhappy, because the cars are not long enough stationary. It also may make us viewers happier, because it doesn't require the camera team to show us tons of replays, just so sponsors get enough air time, and instead of just being able to follow the stop watch, we have more time to enjoy and potentially discuss pit stop procedures.

To me that would be win, win & win.

Edited by HP, 17 July 2014 - 00:04.

I agree that the 10 place grid penalty is overly harsh, it just serves to make sure a driver has 2 races destroyed through no fault of their own, and the second one pointlessly. I suggest doing away with the stop go and 10 place drop and have a sliding scale of fines and constructor point deductions for the team, increasing through the year every time the team gets it wrong and resetting for the next year.

The driver has to get a penalty that hurts / threatens to hurt his points tally, there's no way around it. A team that likes to use the rules to the fullest to get their driver an advantage would abuse it otherwise to increase the chance of winning the WDC, it doesn't make sense at all.

Deduct points from the WCC. 

Minimum pit stop time is a terrible idea, as well as trying to accurately determine what penalty would be correct.

The big problem is that pit stops are so quick. There is enormous pressure on the tire changers and on the lollipop guy to make things as fast as possible. The solution is to drastically cut down on the amount of people allowed to change tires. Indycar/nascar has nailed it pretty well. The stops typically take over 10 seconds, and since the amount of people working on tires is limited, if something goes wrong, the guy getting it wrong will notice it, stop the car from being released and fix the problem.

 

 

How about something like this? Minus the driver change, obviously, and maybe more than two crewmen allowed for the wheel changing to make it a bit faster, but the same basic idea of having to take the used wheels away ans stand clear of the car, behind the line, before it can be released.

 

Something like that would be better than a minimum stop time. It keeps the pitstops competitive but makes things safer.

Is it fair that one driver gets an advantage over another driver because his pit crew is better?

 

It's a TEAM!

Indeed.

What people often fail to realise is that the teams - not the drivers - are the actual entrants to the Formula One series. The drivers are simply one component of the teams' staff.

The teams should be forced to pay me 10 million € every time they send a guy out with a lose wheel.

In FIA GT the wheelmen had to wait behind the line until the car was stopped, as you can see in the video. I'd be in favour of that rule for F1 as well. It always makes me cringe when it rains and drivers have to come in on worn, cold slicks to pick up wets, and the pit lane is soaked. There's often also a change of surface from aspahlt to concrete. And the crewmen are kneeling on the floor with all their heavy gear on and wheels and equipment next to them, hampering them if they have to get out of the way, so if the driver messes it up, they're just going to get hit.

 

The way I'd do it, I'd allow them four crewmen and two airguns for the wheels, and they would be required to change the wheels on the garage side first, then the wheels on the other side, because that way they'd have to walk/run several paces to get back behind the line after the wheels were fitted, just to make sure they'd have plenty of time to realise their mistake if the job wasn't finished. And they'd have to stay on their feet, too, no diving over the line allowed.

Sounds fairly sensible. Mandating a system where all pit crew had to bang a button 6 foot off the ground before the car could be released would stop them diving over the line.

Although it could end up looking like a bit like a Saturday evening game show.

What? That would be tripling the penalty? Why would anyone want that?
 
If this is all about improving pitlane safety and stopping accidents from happening they need to change the rules of the pit stops, not give out random grid penalties after the damage has been done.
 
Pushing drivers down the grid does nothing to prevent pitlane accidents, if anything it only makes the chances of them happening greater by giving those drivers/teams more reason to stress about making up time during a race in order to get a good finish.

I think there are a few situations that need to be stamped out. Unsafe releases are one such. It will, of course, be impossible to stop things happening, but if you can reduce them as much as possible. Teams are racing and, therefore, will always take risks if there is a perceived advantage. So the only way to address this is to remove this perception.

 

In the case of the unsafe release, that comes down to either enforcing a minimum stop time or adopting such harsh penalties as to make teams act more carefully (so the perceived advantage is not there anymore). As has been pointed out before, the driver wins out when the pit crew do a good job and so must also lose out when they don't. So no, it's not unfair at all.

exactly. the teams don't intentionally send drivers out with a dangerous car, so the form of punishment does very little to address the actual danger. only a minimum pit stop time will actually prevent these errors, so the correct checks can be made in enough time before the car goes out.

The 10s stop/go is kind of a moot penalty IMO. Their race is already ruined by the loose wheel, the 10 place grid penalty is fine though, you win together and lose together as a team.

Maybe the drivers could forgo the grid penalty if they got out of the car in the pits and fitted their own wheels

I think you missed the point of my post. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I said in the first part of my post that it should be about changing pitstop procedures rather than handing out penalties.

The second part was just to say to those that want to punish the team and that you can't separate team from driver, why does it just have to be the affected river that gets a punishment? The fact that I was tripling the penalty wasn't the point. It could be, for example, that you hand out one punishment but to the team-mate of the driver whose pitstop was messed up. The team has committed a "culpable offence" so the team needs to be punished. You can punish the team by punishing either driver.

Not sure if you're serious....

Why would you penalise a driver that had nothing to do with the incident? And how would that do anything to stop an accident happening?

--

Like i've already said I don't think any kind of penalty implemented after the fact has ever made the sport safer (the fact the incidents still happen proves the threat of a penalty does nothing to change the drivers/teams behaviour), so if unsafe pit releases are still a huge issue then pit stop procedures themselves have to be changed.

Edited by johnmhinds, 17 July 2014 - 11:58.