Period materials that are unobtainable?

I think the US of A is gradually inching towards the metric system.

The good ole Metric system, good for some and not for others, you will struggle to find a metric bricklayer though, the brick is 9" long and 4 1/2 " wide by 3" tall everywhere on the planet with a 3/8" perp joint.

 

That may well be the case in Oz but in the UK we have metric bricks now.

When repairing older brickwork we (or our builders) have to hunt around to find a matching colour in the traditional size, but it can be done.

As you write, the feet and inch system is good for subdivisions,. but we really should have then divided the inch into 48, not 64, to get the thirds!

What you may not know is that there were feet and inches both France and Germany - slightly larger than the British equivalents - and that French plumbing connections used BSP threads until quite recently (and may still do so).

What you may not know is that there were feet and inches both France and Germany - slightly larger than the British equivalents - and that French plumbing connections used BSP threads until quite recently (and may still do so).

re. the reluctance to metricate...

Donald Hammond of "The Dozenal Society" wrote the following ode to the humble house-brick:

The writing on the wall.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I am a brick: a house-proud brick –
   My proportions are six-three-two.
In English, plain or Flemish Bond
   I'll build a home for you.
Four courses to the foot I lay
   And four lengths to a yard;
A wall at the back? A chimney stack?
   Nothing is too hard.
The secret lies in my handy size
   And my ratio of two-three-six;
Set me on edge, or even on end -
   I still fit with the other bricks.
Metricate me? They can't, you see
   To metres I pay no regard:
Four courses to the foot I lay
   And four lengths to the yard!


http://www.dozenalsociety.org.uk/

I seem to remember being told that the Imperial to metric conversion caught out the Russians when they copied a grounded B29 bomber, the Russian version being "out" all over the place?

I suppose it depends on which measuring system you were either brought up with, or trust. One based on finites, such as the weight or diameter of an atom, or ones based on the width of a horses rear or the distance between a Kings nose and the end of his outstretched arm!!

My old boss had a replica, a  from the drawings replica built, and the first thing he picked up on were the fixings, he said they looked wrong, new and "too perfect", plus the originals had a the makers trade mark on ALL the bolt heads. So he had a set of those made too. I think the bottom line to the thread is, anything, absolutly ANYTHING is possible, if you throw enough money at it!

Edited by f1steveuk, 05 August 2014 - 14:01.

 

My old boss had a replica, from the drawings replica, built, and the first thing he picked up on were the fixings, he said they looked wrong, new and "too perfect", plus the originals had a the makes trade mark ion ALL the bold heads. So he had a set of those made too. I think the bottom line to the thread is, anything, absolutly ANYTHING is possible, if you throw enough money at it!

That's certainly true, the theory even works in a court of law...

Having just crawled under and over many dozens of such beasties in wrecking yards in America, I can say this is not the case...

There are metric threads in use and there have been for some years.

I should have pointed out the last time I worked on an American car was roughly 20 years ago

any materials that did exist are still available - it is dependent on cost. we use a steel plate of a specific grade from WW2, I'm fairly confident that we are the only users in the world and as such it is made for us (then again for trace ability we need to know the hole in the ground the ore was dug from).

I cannot comment on the US cars but for boats they still use imperial fasteners.

 

My old boss had a replica, from the drawings replica, built, and the first thing he picked up on were the fixings, he said they looked wrong, new and "too perfect", plus the originals had a the makes trade mark ion ALL the bold heads. So he had a set of those made too. I think the bottom line to the thread is, anything, absolutely ANYTHING is possible, if you throw enough money at it!

And another thing, your old boss Mr E is so fussy that he had some special fixings made to replicate the originals?

If he's so particular, and has such an eye for small details, how come his Lancia D50 replica featured rivets with painted shadowing around them? A lovely car viewed from 30 feet away, but close-up that completely ruined the appearance, tackiest replica I've ever seen.

Are we talking about the same car by any chance ?

No. The D50 appeared before I left, and there was a HUGE snag list, but if that included these rivets, I would not know. He could/can be fussy, but other times, like wanting VW10 fully restored, even though it was so original, left me puzzled.

Ray

I just got off the pot at my son's house in Grover, Mo.

In your post #49 you said, "3.8 litres for US gallons, 4.546 for Imperial. There may be decimal places on the US one too, but they're not printed on the top of urinals."

Well, guess what? Fired into the ware is:

       KOHLER

 1.6 gallons/6 liters

   per flush or less

You must not be hanging out in the right places,  :-)

Regards

Slightly off topic, but I hope interesting to TNFers (old units!) is that when magazine contributor Colin Goodwin and I visited Airframe Assemblies on the Isle of Wight to see their wonderful Spitfire restorations and recreations, we were shown bought-in components made today by the firms that made them in 1940. Two examples that stuck in my mind were the early Spitfire flare-chute hinges and cockpit map boxes. Airframe was able to match the hinge recesses and rotting hinge components recovered from decades of salt-water immersion with a US kitchen catalogue item, still produced by the firm established by the designer, an immigrant who fled Europe in the 1930s. The riveted-construction map boxes were made by a British company still making fibre suitcases - and they retooled to make some fresh ones. So; original company manufacture, if not original parts... 

On metal specs, the answer to some extent depends on the age of the car and hence the material specs it was built from. A small part of my day job includes work on historic aircraft, including advising and approving alternative materials for the BBMF when they're doing repairs and/or rebuilds. 

I've assumed that some materials for aircraft are still available in the exact composition and dimensions as from the 1960s onwards, in order for repairs to popular planes to be 'correct by the book'. Thus cars using the same materials could be fixed up using period authentic materials -- or as you experience, a slight rethink and recalculation may be required in order to use an alternative. 

What was the story regarding the Hurricane main spar.  As I understand it: the grade of steel originally used is no longer made and some of its properties  (i don't know which) cannot be matched with currently available grades. One reason for the lack of airworthy Hurricanes compared to Spitfires, Mustangs etc.  So, when one of the preserved aircraft required a replacement main spar for C of A reasons they had to have a special batch of steel made up. Or is this story apocryphal?

The good ole Metric system, good for some and not for others, you will struggle to find a metric bricklayer though, the brick is 9" long and 4 1/2 " wide by 3" tall everywhere on the planet with a 3/8" perp joint.

 

Ummm, not in Cheshire (UK). Our house was built less than 40 years ago but was constructed from "reclaimed Cheshire brick". Approximately 80% (I got fed up with counting rivets) are hand made, dating from about 1750. They are anything between 9 1/2" to 7" long, generally 4-5" wide and 2 3/4" to 3 1/4"  tall. Even I can make a matching alteration.  I reckon that maybe four of these bricks are showing signs of distress since our house was built- so they knew what they were doing back then.

Evidently the manufacture of bricks was becoming somewhat automated by 1780 (wire-cut) because, in 1784, the Prime Minister, William Pitt the Younger (what a complete bastard he was) introduced a brick tax.

As to plumbing- a month ago, at the Le Mans Classic, I happened to find myself in an Eric Leclerc hypermarket looking for food and Mobil 1 oil but, as one does, sauntered along the plumbing aisle and grabbed a bag of mixed brass compression fittings, because I'll possibly need some of them in the next 30 years, at that price. They are all marked in Imperial sizes.

Such a shame this forum seems to be in the Doldrums.

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
Ray
 
I just got off the pot at my son's house in Grover, Mo.
 
In your post #49 you said, "3.8 litres for US gallons, 4.546 for Imperial. There may be decimal places on the US one too, but they're not printed on the top of urinals."
 
Well, guess what? Fired into the ware is:
       KOHLER
 1.6 gallons/6 liters
   per flush or less
 
You must not be hanging out in the right places.

What was the story regarding the Hurricane main spar. 

Try the Haynes book which has some restoration stories. A further concern for Hurricane restorers is the quantity of welding. If you needed to repair a small bit of Hurricane in wartime, you might have been able to do it in the yard. Not today.

What was the story regarding the Hurricane main spar.  As I understand it: the grade of steel originally used is no longer made and some of its properties  (i don't know which) cannot be matched with currently available grades. One reason for the lack of airworthy Hurricanes compared to Spitfires, Mustangs etc.  So, when one of the preserved aircraft required a replacement main spar for C of A reasons they had to have a special batch of steel made up. Or is this story apocryphal?

I don't know about the grade of steel, but a Hurricane spar is a very unusual shape. It's a lot like an I beam but made up from three parts - the top and bottom of the I and a central portion. The top and bottom sections are rolled into tubes which aren't actually circular but formed from a series of flats.
It's a very, very complicated shape.

I'm just guessing but I reckon it was done that way so Hawker didn't need to use an expensive grade of steel. Could be that it was cheaper, given the huge amount of metalworking expertise around at the time and the relatively low labour costs ?

To make one nowadays would probably be a very challenging project - I found a link - take a look here http://www.jneaircra...m/am274/2010-2/

I think the lack of airworthy Hurricanes is mainly down to the fact that it just didn't have the growth potential of the Spit or the Mustang, which got faster and more capable as the war progressed. So the poor old Hurri's went to wherever combat aircraft go when they can't cut it anymore. Destroyed to train airframe fitters in repairing battle damage and airfield fire crews maybe ?

3.8 litres for US gallons, 4.546 for Imperial. There may be decimal places on the US one too, but they're not printed on the top of urinals.
 

The problem to which you refer, or at least a large segment of the coarse/fine problem in Australia, is the Australian standards for threads. There are plenty of fine and coarse threads, for instance, for a 12mm bolt. 1mm, 1.25mm, 1.5mm, 1.75mm and even 2mm pitch. There are probably special-order items with 0.75mm pitch. But the standards here ignore most options and the one most sadly lacking for automotive use is 1.5mm... 1.75 is our standard.

As mentioned, 7mm bolts have been used in European cars for decades.

Hey, all the cars I have worked with with milliwhatsits threads have been Japanese and the occasional Anglo, Euro Auussie abortions such as Cortinas and Escorts! Those cars really have a problem. With Whitworth , SAE, Euro metric and what could be called pommy metric. Cortina 6 has metric bolts one end the SAE the other end on the front shocks! And some WW in the body fasteners.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 06 August 2014 - 11:29.

3.8 litres for US gallons, 4.546 for Imperial. There may be decimal places on the US one too, but they're not printed on the top of urinals.
 

The problem to which you refer, or at least a large segment of the coarse/fine problem in Australia, is the Australian standards for threads. There are plenty of fine and coarse threads, for instance, for a 12mm bolt. 1mm, 1.25mm, 1.5mm, 1.75mm and even 2mm pitch. There are probably special-order items with 0.75mm pitch. But the standards here ignore most options and the one most sadly lacking for automotive use is 1.5mm... 1.75 is our standard.

As mentioned, 7mm bolts have been used in European cars for decades.

Yes, but you plat with froggie cars! Though these days they seem to be made everywhere. Spain, UK even France!

What was the story regarding the Hurricane main spar.  As I understand it: the grade of steel originally used is no longer made and some of its properties  (i don't know which) cannot be matched with currently available grades. One reason for the lack of airworthy Hurricanes compared to Spitfires, Mustangs etc.  So, when one of the preserved aircraft required a replacement main spar for C of A reasons they had to have a special batch of steel made up. Or is this story apocryphal?

Sadly just an apocryphal story (if its the aircraft I'm thinking of). The nearest equivalent material was chosen and stress analysis of the resulting structure done in order to show that the structural integrity was at least as good as the original.

You mightt have trouble getting asbestos brake linings and fuel pipe lagging....

Edited by Terry Walker, 06 August 2014 - 12:48.

The Hurricane spar story is true - I got it first-hand from Hurricane restorer, latterday historic racer and Archie Scott-Brown nephew Tony Ditheridge. Tony and Guy Black - who'd discovered period tube-forming machines vital to remanufacturing the bolted-together(!) fuselage - ended up going to a Swedish steel manufacturer for the spring-like sheet metal stock required. 

Hawkers essentially made a wooden structure in metal, using nested, many-sided tube sections as the top and bottom of an I-section spar. If you imagine a wing spar to function like a cantilver leaf spring - as it kind of does - this makes sense. (James Martin insisted on steel spars for his MB5 fighter, asking his critics if they'd be happy to own a car with aluminium springs.) Of course, the problem with nested sections is that water can track between them...

Edited by Philip Whiteman, 06 August 2014 - 14:06.

The Hurricane spar story is true

 

Fascinating, thanks.
It wasn't about an expedient\cheap manufacturing technique then. I know that a lot of pilots who were initially disappointed to be posted to Hurricanes were won over by its strength and resistance to battle damage.

OT, but when I was doing my apprenticeship, Austin Rover brought out the 'O' series engine, to replace the 'A'. The first installations being the Ital (Marina) and the Sherpa Van. Of course these vehicles were imperial, but the engine was ALL metric, which was interesting when attaching the gearbox to it, they were some very odd studs....................................

OT again, still on threads. I recently came across a thread that was new to me, on my 1924 Minerva. It was 1/4" UNS....24 TPI. Fortunately Tracy Tools Ltd [UK] were able to suply a die and taps.

OT again, still on threads. I recently came across a thread that was new to me, on my 1924 Minerva. It was 1/4" UNS....24 TPI. Fortunately Tracy Tools Ltd [UK] were able to suply a die and taps.

Good old Tracy Tools. They can supply a tap or die for just about any threadform known to engineering...

Lee, what you play with is irrelevant...

The 7mm bolts are there in automotive use, 7mm bolts have 11mm heads generally and I'm sure I've seen them on Japanese cars as well.

I don't think you'll find Whitworth threads on anything, even Pommie stuff, made since 1950. You will find, however, metric stuff on very early Morris cars.

The Weirdest individual bolt size I've found was, I think, an 11.5mm bolt with 1mm pitch in the diff of late Peugeot 404s.

Normal Jap car is 6mm with either 10 or 11mm spanner. That is weird in itself.

The last time I came across Whitworth threads as original equipment was 1 inch bolts on a Japanese rubber ship's dock fender in about 1982.  Heaven alone knows why they used Whitworth.

At the risk of starting a diplomatic incident, possibly because the original bolt that provided the 'inspiration' may have started life in a country where Whitworth threads were quite common at the time of its manufacture...

When i worked for 'Tom's GB' - which was by then Japanese owned -one of my jobs was to install the Toyota DOHC  3SG engine in a school single seater. This was pre CAD, and none of the dimensions (to 3 decimal places) on the hand drawn engine blueprints made any sense - until i divided the lot by 25.4 . Suddenly the engine made a whole lot more sense and looked a whole lot more 'familiar'...

Peter

Well Mr Honda did borrow the forked rocker arm from Bentley....

Just noticed the avatar.....'Armstrong' Siddley ?

Well Mr Honda did borrow the forked rocker arm from Bentley....

This was Toyota...

Since the very first Datsun was a license-built Austin Seven, wouldn't that have been mostly Imperial, and what about the BMW Dixi, also an Austin Seven copy?

For those whose nostalgia only goes back as far as the introduction carbon fibre and autoclaves an acquaintance of mine is building a hillclimb car out of the new fangled stuff, he informs me that since the autoclaves at Airbus in Bristol are part public funded they are obliged to fit in work from the public as and when.

Since the very first Datsun was a license-built Austin Seven, wouldn't that have been mostly Imperial, and what about the BMW Dixi, also an Austin Seven copy?

Yes Rob, that was more the lines i was thinking of - but do we know where did the inspiration for the 3 SG Toyota come from  ?

The smaller 4AG  was likewise imperial in its architecture, and although you will read on the web that it was inspired by the Ford BD series, it certainly isn't a straight copy.

Peter

Just noticed the avatar.....'Armstrong' Siddley ?

Signs of a miss spent youth 

Back to the Japanese, one of Kawasaki's early entries into the bike market was what appears to be a replica of the BSA A10 - at least it looks the same externally. I wonder what the dimensions work out at and if they copied that awful plain bush timing side main bearing ?

Since the very first Datsun was a license-built Austin Seven, wouldn't that have been mostly Imperial, and what about the BMW Dixi, also an Austin Seven copy?

Actually, the first 'D.A.T.' / 'Datson' / 'Datsun' cars were nothing directly to do with the Austin Seven, and 'D.A.T. Jidosha' / Nissan Jidosha never built the Austin Seven under license.

In fact, 'D.A.T. Jidosha' (which eventually became Nissan Jidosha in 1933) was in direct competition with the official Japanese Austin importer, and lobbied the Japanese government to bring in new laws that would give them an advantage, and make problems for the Austin importer. One such law - a cap on the overall length and width for the Japanese 'Light Car' class in 1934 - forced the Austin importer to ship in short wheelbase van chassis from Longbridge and build (narrow) bodies for them in Japan.

It wasn't until 1952 that Nissan signed an agreement with Austin to import CKD kits, and eventually - a few years later - Nissan was building '100% Japanese' Austins under license. 

Actually, the first 'D.A.T.' / 'Datson' / 'Datsun' cars were nothing directly to do with the Austin Seven, and 'D.A.T. Jidosha' / Nissan Jidosha never built the Austin Seven under license.

 

In fact, 'D.A.T. Jidosha' (which eventually became Nissan Jidosha in 1933) was in direct competition with the official Japanese Austin importer, and lobbied the Japanese government to bring in new laws that would give them an advantage, and make problems for the Austin importer. One such law - a cap on the overall length and width for the Japanese 'Light Car' class in 1934 - forced the Austin importer to ship in short wheelbase van chassis from Longbridge and build (narrow) bodies for them in Japan.

 

It wasn't until 1952 that Nissan signed an agreement with Austin to import CKD kits, and eventually - a few years later - Nissan was building '100% Japanese' Austins under license. 

Thanks, PZR, for the contrary contribution which is off topic but of interest to all who follow UK car history. Tell us more. Please. 

Did the Japs actually ever invent an engine up to the 70s at least. So many Jap engines are copies/ clones of others. Generally improved, especially the pommy ones. A series BMC,Nissan A series!  An improvement. Hillman, Bellett a minor improvement. Landcruiser 6, Chevy 6. and the list goes on.

Some of those engines are so similar many parts interchange and even if not I am sure an English A series mechanic could strip an A12 blindfolded. Except for spanners ofcourse.

As an aside with Ford 6s over the 80s until 01 they were an abomination of bolts and spanner heads. All imperial threads but many had metric heads. In 01 the metricised the engine fully. But crak dia is still the same, as is the bore size,,, in inches effectivly but all metric fasteners and a different rods length. Flywheel interchanges, sort of. One is 7/16 and one 12mm thread. Most gaskets interchange.

The Buick V6/ Holden VN VR Commodore V6 too is a bit the same. Its origins are Buick V8 and a few items still interchange, as well as the Leyland V8. Even the ecotech engine is still a similar engine.

Edit. I am referring to mainstream road car equip. Not limited run Sports engines. Though reputedly [I am told] many of those are adaptions of existing designs. Though by the 60s and 70s most engines were ofcourse.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 12 August 2014 - 10:23.

I would have thought that Mr Honda might have qualified as having unique design engines, sure he learned a trick or two from others but a 4 cylinder, transverse mounted, air cooled, dry sumped,  OHC with multiple carburation was very unusual in the 1960's when planted in a full size road car.

The rest of the car wasn't exactly traditional either. The F1 engine definitely a new way of thinking.V12 transverse?

Did the Japs actually ever invent an engine up to the 70s at least. So many Jap engines are copies/ clones of others. Generally improved, especially the pommy ones. A series BMC,Nissan A series!  An improvement. Hillman, Bellett a minor improvement. Landcruiser 6, Chevy 6. and the list goes on.

Some of those engines are so similar many parts interchange and even if not I am sure an English A series mechanic could strip an A12 blindfolded. Except for spanners ofcourse.

 

The Honda S600 engine springs to mind.

The Honda S600 engine springs to mind.

Did the Japs actually ever invent an engine up to the 70s at least. So many Jap engines are copies/ clones of others.

Do you mean 'invent' in the sense of Otto, Diesel, Hesselman et al? Or do you mean design from scratch, engineer, produce and sell?

If the second, then yes, most certainly. 

Was the Honda car engine effectively a modified/developed motorcycle engine or was it a new design?

The afore-mentioned Honda S600 was powered by the AS285E engine, which was descended (via the AK280E, AS250E and AS280E) from the 356cc AK250E twin cam engine of the Honda T360 light truck. It wasn't a modified/developed motorcycle engine. 

Slightly off topic, but I hope interesting to TNFers (old units!) is that when magazine contributor Colin Goodwin and I visited Airframe Assemblies on the Isle of Wight to see their wonderful Spitfire restorations and recreations, we were shown bought-in components made today by the firms that made them in 1940. Two examples that stuck in my mind were the early Spitfire flare-chute hinges and cockpit map boxes. Airframe was able to match the hinge recesses and rotting hinge components recovered from decades of salt-water immersion with a US kitchen catalogue item, still produced by the firm established by the designer, an immigrant who fled Europe in the 1930s. The riveted-construction map boxes were made by a British company still making fibre suitcases - and they retooled to make some fresh ones. So; original company manufacture, if not original parts...

'Globe-Trotter' in Hoddesdon, Herts. by any chance?