South African GP

I know its unlikely to return to the calander unless SA produces an F1 superstar but, in theory, can Kyalami still be used as an F1 circuit?

Originally posted by Dunc
I know its unlikely to return to the calander unless SA produces an F1 superstar but, in theory, can Kyalami still be used as an F1 circuit?

In theory, I see no reason why not. It might need to be updated in certain areas, but the infrastructure is basically all in place.
I doubt, however, that SA will ever be given another shot at hosting a GP, or at least I hope not, as I wouldn´t want to travel there. From being the powerhouse of Africa, it has descended into a 3rd world country in 14 short years, where even the most basic institutions are falling apart. The ruling ANC government has killed the goose that laid the golden egg as they grab the countries assets for themselves. Unemployment is at an all time high of 40%. Government sponsored crime, mostly violent, resulting in over 50 murders daily, has left the country in ruins. It is the rape capital of the world, where a woman is raped, on average, every 11 seconds. Reverse racism is openly practiced by the government, and land grabs are the order of the day. White farmers who won´t leave their farms are simply murdered. The country has descended into chaos. Anything that is not nailed down is stolen. Hijacking´s, where the victims are often indiscriminately killed, occur on a daily basis. Corruption in out of control. Law and order has broken down. The medical and education systems have collapsed, and the economy is in a rapidly increasing downward spiral. The president elect, Zuma, is facing corruption charges, and has just been aquitted of rape, claiming it was consensual sex, for which he got the benefit of the doubt. He has had six wives and has 18 children, as well as a few out of wedlock, apparently. The present president, Mbeki, supports Robert Mugabe!!! Enough said.
Over a million South Africans of all colours have fled the country, while 12 million illegal immigrants from the even poorer and more chaotic countries to the north have flooded into the South Africa, bringing with them even more poverty, crime and desease. Civil unrest is only years away. Predictably though, this information is not reported by the media, the same media that is directly responsible for creating the situation that now exists. It was afterall (what else?) all apartheid´s fault.
Would you want to travel to a GP in SA?

ex-rhodie, unfortunately i think your are right. a pity because kayalami is a great track.

ex Rhodie, I know exactly where you are (coming) from - I am also from that part of the world. But all the bitterness aside, there is one very simple reason why no SAGP can happen for the next ten years at least, even if a fairy godmother miraculously wipes away all the ciuntry's ills: there simply is no money in the government's coffers to support a race, and BCE presently demands that governements get involved, certainly in terms of issuing financial guarantees and infrastructure.

With the multi-billion cost (in any currency) of the 2010 FIFA extravaganza, housing and school and hospital shortages galore, constant electricity blackouts due to insufficient capacity and a currency which has dropped almost 50% in 6 months, the harsh reality is that there simply is no spare cash even if a circuit could be upgraded (which Kyalami certainly can't) or a new one built (which was just last week blown off the Cape Town/West Cape political agendas).

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Would you want to travel to a GP in SA?

I know that all is not well in SA ex Rhodie racer but to answer your question, yes I would travel to a GP in SA.
I just spend two wonderfull weeks there last December and I would love to see a GP at Kyalami.

but as you said it's all in theory because it won't happen any time soon.

Originally posted by Felix
ex Rhodie, I know exactly where you are (coming) from - I am also from that part of the world. But all the bitterness aside, there is one very simple reason why no SAGP can happen for the next ten years at least, even if a fairy godmother miraculously wipes away all the ciuntry's ills: there simply is no money in the government's coffers to support a race, and BCE presently demands that governements get involved, certainly in terms of issuing financial guarantees and infrastructure.

With the multi-billion cost (in any currency) of the 2010 FIFA extravaganza, housing and school and hospital shortages galore, constant electricity blackouts due to insufficient capacity and a currency which has dropped almost 50% in 6 months, the harsh reality is that there simply is no spare cash even if a circuit could be upgraded (which Kyalami certainly can't) or a new one built (which was just last week blown off the Cape Town/West Cape political agendas).

This was what the Tilke designed track was to be like....

Originally posted by Felix
...there simply is no money in the government's coffers to support a race, and BCE presently demands that governements get involved, certainly in terms of issuing financial guarantees and infrastructure.

There's plenty of money. There just isn't the political mandate to spend taxpayer funds on something that appeals almost exclusively to the white elite. Mbeki and Co already stand accused of being coconuts. They're not going to give overt credence to those claims by funding a GP.

For the same reason, SABC was happy to let DSTV take over F1 broadcasts. SABC's demographic would rather see soccer or boxing.

How is Lewis Hamilton viewed in South Africa? Though personally I think of him as British and not black.

None of my black colleagues have even heard of him. F1 isn't very big in the .za black community.

SA whites have the same dichotomy of views that you will see here in RC. Everything from God to Satan, and anything in between.

Quite. Bernie has managed to convince much of the world that they should pay HIM, rather than him pay THEM to host races, and various governments have been suckered into believing that F1 will bring massive economical direct and indirect benefits. I believe the reality is somewhat different though. We already know where Malaysia and China and Bahrain (and South Africa) are on the map, and in reality 150,000 (and you can fraudulently call that 450,000 if you want, but they won't be buying merchandising etc every day) coming to a 3 day event is likely to swell the coffers of a few local (prob. multinational) hotels, and do very little for local people and the local economy. Sure, it brings some benefits, but I believe these are far outweighed by the cost of hosting the event.

Even in the UK, "the home of motorsports" as we (accurately or inaccurately) like to think of it, the government know that the idea of pumping millions of pounds of taxpayers' money into a sport indulged in largely by the rich/very rich and mega-rich would provoke a public outcry. I am sure many, or even most, South African citizens, black and white, would love to have a GP, but when it is going to COST them, rather than benefit them, I doubt many would be so enamoured by the idea.

Bernie is no doubt a genius for convincing various governments of the benefits, but it does mean limiting new circuits on the F1 calander to countries where they are all so rich the local population don't care, or where the governement don't give a damn whether the population mind paying for it or not.

And that ain't Britain or South Africa.

Ross: B]How is Lewis Hamilton viewed in South Africa? Though personally I think of him as British and not black.[/B]

Why would he be viewed as anything as a racing driver by South Africans? The Portuguese don't place Kimi on a pedestal simply because he's classed as white as they are. And, forget not that Lisbon is closer to Helsinki than Soweto is to the Grenada or Stevenage.

Well just going with Rich's comments about F1 being seen as a 'white sport'

Rich: There's plenty of money.

Well, if there is, I and all my mates in SA motorsport would love to see it. Taxes and the cost of essential services have shot up, service delivery has sunk to rock-bottom, standard of living is a tenth of what it used to be, and if there is money for a grand prix I would sure like to know who is hoarding it.

Yes, F1 is viewed as white elite sport in SA (although, strangely, the Gauteng govt - which controls Johannesburg - is sinking millions of dollars into a Renault F1 'initiative'), and yes, SABC dropped F1 and let DSTV take it over fully - but that is not unrelated to the de facto demise of Concorde, which no enables BCE to bypass free-to-air broadcasts, which is why SABC had delayed transmission rights (FOC) - but ultimately every right-thinking South African, and I speak to many from all walks every day, knows money down there is in very short supply.

I remember somebody asking David Coulthard (during an audience Q&A) at the Autosport International about six years ago if he wanted F1 to return to SA, as a world championship should be on all continents.

He launched into some absolutely ridiculous tirade about why on earth should F1 ever go back to venues it has left in the past, irrespective of the apartheid issues that face/d SA. It was quite embarrasing really as this poor woman had asked the question more on a basis of did he wish to return to a classic track that would represent a true world championship.

Originally posted by Imperial
I remember somebody asking David Coulthard (during an audience Q&A) at the Autosport International about six years ago if he wanted F1 to return to SA, as a world championship should be on all continents.

He launched into some absolutely ridiculous tirade about why on earth should F1 ever go back to venues it has left in the past, irrespective of the apartheid issues that face/d SA. It was quite embarrasing really as this poor woman had asked the question more on a basis of did he wish to return to a classic track that would represent a true world championship.

He's not called Crazy Dave for nuthin'!

Originally posted by Felix
Well, if there is, I and all my mates in SA motorsport would love to see it. Taxes and the cost of essential services have shot up, service delivery has sunk to rock-bottom, standard of living is a tenth of what it used to be, and if there is money for a grand prix I would sure like to know who is hoarding it.

So because your standard of living is not what it used to be, then nobody's is?

Next time you're stuck in a traffic jam, look at the drivers around you. Note what colour they are and what cars they are driving. Then think back to the 70s and 80s, and try to remember how many black South Africans drove SUVs, Mercs, Beemers and Volvos back then.

When I moved into my house in 1996, there was a huge open stretch of veld nearby, spanning some five kilometres on both sides of the road. Today, every square inch of that veld has been developed into townhouse complexes, in just ten years. I get cards in my postbox every week from local estate agents, begging me to let them know first should I ever decide to sell. They are desperate for properties to sell.

I attended a bid-by-SMS TV auction for a new 200 unit townhouse complex recently. Bids opened at exactly 9pm. One hundred seconds later, all 200 units were sold.

Why do you think we're having load shedding at the moment? Why do you think we're having such severe traffic jams? It's because of all the new buildings, malls and factories that are going up, and all the new/extra cars on the road. Building booms generally aren't indicative of a depressed economy. There's plenty of money around.

It'll slow now with the rising oil price and global credit crunch. But that applies to everywhere, not just SA.

afaik Kyalami is not suitable for a F1 race without major modifications and the company that was behind the Cape Town proposal is about to fold.

The Hamilton perspective: I have two friends who follow F1 quite closely and are black and coloured and they have the same attitude to Hamilton as they do to guys like Zaugg. They don't see them as black because they dont have black parents and are merely cashing in on the "black" ticket - these are their views. To them Hamilton is just another driver in f1.

They see the SA A1GP entry as a huge slap in the face as its the perfect vehicle to support black South African drivers, not someone like Zaugg. It would probably raise awareness of motorsport among blacks if they had a proper black driver to support like Gugu Zulu - born and bred African.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


In theory, I see no reason why not. It might need to be updated in certain areas, but the infrastructure is basically all in place.
I doubt, however, that SA will ever be given another shot at hosting a GP, or at least I hope not, as I wouldn´t want to travel there. From being the powerhouse of Africa, it has descended into a 3rd world country in 14 short years, where even the most basic institutions are falling apart. The ruling ANC government has killed the goose that laid the golden egg as they grab the countries assets for themselves. Unemployment is at an all time high of 40%. Government sponsored crime, mostly violent, resulting in over 50 murders daily, has left the country in ruins. It is the rape capital of the world, where a woman is raped, on average, every 11 seconds. Reverse racism is openly practiced by the government, and land grabs are the order of the day. White farmers who won´t leave their farms are simply murdered. The country has descended into chaos. Anything that is not nailed down is stolen. Hijacking´s, where the victims are often indiscriminately killed, occur on a daily basis. Corruption in out of control. Law and order has broken down. The medical and education systems have collapsed, and the economy is in a rapidly increasing downward spiral. The president elect, Zuma, is facing corruption charges, and has just been aquitted of rape, claiming it was consensual sex, for which he got the benefit of the doubt. He has had six wives and has 18 children, as well as a few out of wedlock, apparently. The present president, Mbeki, supports Robert Mugabe!!! Enough said.
Over a million South Africans of all colours have fled the country, while 12 million illegal immigrants from the even poorer and more chaotic countries to the north have flooded into the South Africa, bringing with them even more poverty, crime and desease. Civil unrest is only years away. Predictably though, this information is not reported by the media, the same media that is directly responsible for creating the situation that now exists. It was afterall (what else?) all apartheid´s fault.
Would you want to travel to a GP in SA?

Jesus, are things really that bad . I spent some of my childhood in the 80's growing up in SA and have many fond memories of the place. The first GP I remember watching as a kid was in 83' at Kyalami. I had heard that the Cape is still relatively calm compared to the rest of the country but I am aware of the car-jackings and as for Jo'burg, it is a travesty what has happened to that place. We were all planning as a family to go back out there for 2010 World Cup but from what I hear the project is in a mess. I suspect that FIFA will have to bite the bullet and admit it is failure and look for an alternative host country.......

My standard of living is fine, thank you very much, Rich: I no longer live in South Africa, and have not for almost 20 years having left even before Nelson Mandela was released - although I speak to busness partners on a daily basis, return to SA regularly, still own property there and the majority of my family reside in the country. (Although I don't see what my standard of living - in a place 10 000 kms north of Johannesburg - has, Rich, to do with a debate on a South African Grand Prix ...).

But, go do some research: car repos have hit 16% in SA, higher than ever before; house repos are at record levels; the Rand is (much) softer than at any time in the last six years; unemployment is well on the up and business confidence is down. Just because your standard of living is by all accounts excellent, certainly does not mean that everbody else's is, too...

I suggest any interested party reads this, posted two hours ago:

http://www.fin24.com...1518-25_2306215

But, for whatever reason (political, economic, social), there is no money in SA for a grand prix, and that is, and remains, the thrust.

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
They see the SA A1GP entry as a huge slap in the face as its the perfect vehicle to support black South African drivers, not someone like Zaugg. It would probably raise awareness of motorsport among blacks if they had a proper black driver to support like Gugu Zulu - born and bred African.

That reminds me of the madness of posh English boy Ralph Firman racing for Ireland when there was plenty of Irish drivers who could have done the job just as well.

Originally posted by Hames Junt


This was what the Tilke designed track was to be like....

Looks nothing but fantastic, IMO.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


In theory, I see no reason why not. It might need to be updated in certain areas, but the infrastructure is basically all in place.
I doubt, however, that SA will ever be given another shot at hosting a GP, or at least I hope not, as I wouldn´t want to travel there. From being the powerhouse of Africa, it has descended into a 3rd world country in 14 short years, where even the most basic institutions are falling apart. The ruling ANC government has killed the goose that laid the golden egg as they grab the countries assets for themselves. Unemployment is at an all time high of 40%. Government sponsored crime, mostly violent, resulting in over 50 murders daily, has left the country in ruins. It is the rape capital of the world, where a woman is raped, on average, every 11 seconds. Reverse racism is openly practiced by the government, and land grabs are the order of the day. White farmers who won´t leave their farms are simply murdered. The country has descended into chaos. Anything that is not nailed down is stolen. Hijacking´s, where the victims are often indiscriminately killed, occur on a daily basis. Corruption in out of control. Law and order has broken down. The medical and education systems have collapsed, and the economy is in a rapidly increasing downward spiral. The president elect, Zuma, is facing corruption charges, and has just been aquitted of rape, claiming it was consensual sex, for which he got the benefit of the doubt. He has had six wives and has 18 children, as well as a few out of wedlock, apparently. The present president, Mbeki, supports Robert Mugabe!!! Enough said.
Over a million South Africans of all colours have fled the country, while 12 million illegal immigrants from the even poorer and more chaotic countries to the north have flooded into the South Africa, bringing with them even more poverty, crime and desease. Civil unrest is only years away. Predictably though, this information is not reported by the media, the same media that is directly responsible for creating the situation that now exists. It was afterall (what else?) all apartheid´s fault.
Would you want to travel to a GP in SA?

He ho! A Rhodie extolling the virtues of apartheid! Tell me again ex-Rhodie.What was Rhodesia really like back in the day you lived there? How did you treat your black folk before abandoning the country to Robert Mugabe? Out of interest, where are you living now?

Hello,

Me again.

Take discussions about politics into the Paddock Club please. They'll be delighted to see you.

thanks,

mel

With all due respect mel, I think it's nigh on impossible to have a disscussion about anything to do with Sarf Africa or Rhodesia without politics rearing it's head in some shape or form.

That may be largely true, but I trust you will try. The topic is about the circuit .....

They dont need goverment money for the race (so they claim) but the local government does not appear to be prepared to play ball.

http://www.wheels24....2302097,00.html

G4E: I can assure you the Cape Town project most definitely did need government support - I spoke to David Gant at length on many occassions, and part of the funding drive was persuading the government that all taxes raised by the event should accrue to the project. (Predictably, a method of quantifying and purifying the tax income taxes did not exist at that time...) In addition, FOM needed guarantees issued either by the national or provoincial governments (Cape Town would not do) and finally the project was looking for investor tax breaks - all in, govt money was being sought all along the way, either directly or indirectly.

Originally posted by Felix
Although I don't see what my standard of living - in a place 10 000 kms north of Johannesburg - has, Rich, to do with a debate on a South African Grand Prix ...).

I didn't realise that you were living 10 000km north of Johannesburg when I posted. I was merely reacting to your comment:

I and all my mates in SA motorsport would love to see it. Taxes and the cost of essential services have shot up, service delivery has sunk to rock-bottom, standard of living is a tenth of what it used to be,...

That gave me the impression that you were unhappy with the SOL in South Africa.

Originally posted by Felix
But, go do some research: car repos have hit 16% in SA, higher than ever before; house repos are at record levels; the Rand is (much) softer than at any time in the last six years; unemployment is well on the up and business confidence is down.

Yes, many black yuppies are over-extending themselves, hence the repos. What else would you expect from a new generation that never even had access to financial credit before? Of course they're going to stretch themselves to the max and lose everything when the economy hits a dip. It's human nature.

The Rand is softer than it was during the recent boom economy. However, it's not softer than it was during the times before that. What both you and ex-Rhodie racer are NOT saying is how magnificently the Rand rallied, the economy grew and the business investor confidence shot up, from shortly after the end of apartheid until very recently. A year or two ago, business investor confidence was at its highest levels since the late 1940s. The economy had grown at record levels for something like fourteen straight quarters.

Then the oil price went South, the international credit crunch hit and the ANC/Eskom realised that economic growth and energy demand had outstripped electricity supply capacity. And, all along, we've had to deal with a growing influx of Zimbos fleeing the situation up north, along with Mozambicans and Nigerians flooding in. So, yes, of course unemployment and crime are up, and the economy has slowed. EVERY major economy has slowed - and will slow a lot more before this is over. It's a world problem, not an ANC problem.

Edit: Sorry mel, only saw your note about staying on topic after I'd hit Submit. I guess you'll have to get out the Ms Whiplash outfit now.

Sounds more logical, I was just going by the line in the article that siad they didn't, which was a surprise to me.

All of which brings me back to my point above (although nmowhere did I mention the word ANC):

But, for whatever reason (political, economic, social), there is no money in SA for a grand prix, and that is, and remains, the thrust.

Originally posted by Felix
All of which brings me back to my point above (although nmowhere did I mention the word ANC):

But, for whatever reason (political, economic, social), there is no money in SA for a grand prix, and that is, and remains, the thrust.

I dont think there is a shortage of money from the investors and the private sector, but they can't do it alone. I think the biggest problem is the perception that motorsport is a rich mans game and therefore a "white sport" and hence local and national government not getting involved.

There has been massive support for A1GP because its perceived to be for the people and has been kept well away from any other forms of motorsport in South Africa. I don't think South African motorsport has gained anything from our involvement in A1GP and the races that have been held here.

If you only knew how much Tokyo Sexwale has directly and indirectly lost on A1GP...

You have a PM

Regardless of the financial and political considerations, we can only hope that any new Kyalami circuit is half as good as the glorious circuit which staged the GP until 1985....

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
How is Lewis Hamilton viewed in South Africa? Though personally I think of him as British and not black.

British - nationality
Black - generalisation of skin colour

How are the two comparable? Or are you lumping everybody that is of vaguely African descent into one group?

i remmber in 2007 when itv interviewed hamilton, id forgotten he was black, so i was quite surprised... (in a good way)

Id love to goto south africa sometime, and other african nations..

how about the congo for a GP? something about that area that can makes people go crazy, could be fun to watch from the armchair...

Originally posted by pingu666


how about the congo for a GP? something about that area that can makes people go crazy, could be fun to watch from the armchair...

You are causing sudden flashbacks of a somewhat terrifying University interview I had a couple of months ago!

If anyone could return from Mr Kurtz's enclave intact, with a multi-year race contract in his briefcase, it would be Bernie, though.

Originally posted by Fatgadget


He ho! A Rhodie extolling the virtues of apartheid! Tell me again ex-Rhodie.What was Rhodesia really like back in the day you lived there? How did you treat your black folk before abandoning the country to Robert Mugabe? Out of interest, where are you living now?

Mel, I think it´s only fair you allow me to answer this one, then no more, I promise.

1) Fatgadget, extolling the virtues of apartheid? However did you arrive at that conclusion? Just because the country (SA) is a mess now, has absolutely nothing to do with apartheid. It has everything to do with the ANC. If they are making the apartheid period look good, then that´s their problem.
2) In my time Rhodesia was a beacon of hope in Africa, for ALL her people.
3) I treated all people, irrespective of their colour, with respect.
4) Just for your information, we never "abandoned" our country to Mugabe. I fought alongside my fellow white and black countrymen for three years in the bush war, until the international community, and Britain in particular, stabbed us in the back. But that´s another story.
5) I am retired and live in Switzerland.

Hope that answers your questions.

Darting back to the subject for a moment, South Africa has no more chance of having an F1 GP than, say, Papua New Guinea, and for the same reason: it's a waste of money paying Bernie cubic dollars for something that has little if any benefit to the host nation apart from a shortlived influx of tourists, and which leaves behind a costly white elephant in the shape of a circuit which will inevitable lose even more money the rest of the year. Be damned if I can see why any country would waste the taxpayers money.

And yes, I live in a country was has a fantastically subsidised F1 GP. I like F1, but I can't see why my modest wallet should be milked by the tax office to enrich Bernie. And no, I haven't been to Melbourne to see the race, nor even Adelaide, which was a better venue.

Bernie is rapidly pricing F1 out of the market. All it will take is a world wide recession, or worse depression, to sink the whole thing.

Mumble mumble rhubarb grumble mumble. (Grumpy old man impersonation).

A GP does help to boost the country's international profile. However, this is an area in which SA is already doing exceptionally well.

Despite ex Rhodie racer's doom and gloom about travel prospects, growing numbers of international travellers are choosing to visit SA. In 1994, even with the hundreds of thousands who streamed in for the elections and to experience the freedom gig in the flesh, SA recorded only 3.9 million foreign arrivals - a huge increase on the apartheid-era numbers, but still nowhere near our full potential.

By last year, the arrivals figures had topped 10 million for the first time, and tourism receipts have also ousted gold exports as SA's top foreign revenue earner. We're figuring on 12 million or so for 2010, and steady growth after that until we peak out at our max potential.

That success is not happenstance, but the result of a very carefully crafted campaign to sell the country internationally. It includes aspects such as lobbying globally for greater airlift capacity (our greatest limitation currently), and extensive advertising in foreign travel markets. Conde Nast rated SA in fifth place on its Best Marketed Destinations listing.

However, travel marketing is segment-driven, no destination can be all things to all people. SA's top three drawcards are:
1) Ecotourism and biodiversity
2) Affordability
3) Terrorism-free

It's questionable whether a GP would appeal greatly to that segment. And, even if it did, one has to look at Return On Investment.

For the $$$$ that F1 wants, I doubt that our tourism marketing planners would consider it worthwhile. Too esoteric, too expensive, not enough bang for the buck.

Rich:


By last year, the arrivals figures had topped 10 million for the first time, and tourism receipts have also ousted gold exports as SA's top foreign revenue earner. We're figuring on 12 million or so for 2010, and steady growth after that until we peak out at our max potential.

Here is the counterview, widely published last late last month, and to date not disputed by SA Tourism (certainly not that I have seen and I read five SA publications daily, and two major SA internet sites):

The SA regime's claims of 'overwhelming growth in tourism' are grossly misleading.

The February issue of 'Tourism Update' magazine said the 'celebration of the 8.3 million tourists to the country in 2006 and the 13.9% growth was not so impressive for the industry when it was explored.'

The report said that in the past year, of the 6.6 million 'visitors' to South Africa:

1.6 million came from Lesotho, (population: 2,6-m!)
820,921 from Mozambique, (mostly mine-workers)
774,026 from Swaziland, (population: 1,2-m !)
599,421 from Botswana and
700,439 from Zimbabwe. (cross-border food-shoppers mostly...)

"Seventy-nine percent came from near neighbours" said the SA stats...
Cape Town-based tourism expert Peter Koblmiller, editor of the German tourist magazine Kaapstadt.com, said most of these '8.3-million tourists' were refugees from neighbouring countries, yet were automatically included in SA national tourism statistics.

"79% of all the 'tourists' to South Africa are jobseekers and refugees from neighbouring countries. The 'real tourists' (who bring cash into the economy) from Europe, Asia and the Americas are declining."



Not many grand prix punters in that lot as far as I can see.

I think, as with most claims, you will find the truth somewhere in between the two figures. No doubt there are refugee figures included in the official stats, but there is also no doubt that legitimate international tourism is growing apace.

The figures I've read break the arrivals down by market segment. And, while Africa did show big growth, so did other key markets. Asia, South America, Europe, North America all up substantially. So unless those Zimbo refugees are flying in from Bogota, Kuwait, Ottawa or Paris, I would doubt the alternative figures as well.

For starters, I find it extremely unlikely that more than 50% of all Swazis became refugees in South Africa during a single calendar year. If that was the case, then Swaziland would be entirely depopulated within two years. Has this happened? Not to my knowledge, it hasn't.

Could it be that many of those Swazis were not in fact refugees, but people who took holidays in SA, or came for shopping? In which case, they're not really refugees, are they?

Latest SA Tourism figures available here.

Originally posted by Rich
Latest SA Tourism figures available here.

Spin doctor stuff put out by the Marxist inspired ANC communist regime. What a lot of BS. I saw a lovely cartoon the other day depicting a destitute Zimbabwean scrambling through rolls of barbed wire on top of the boarder fence, with the following caption. "Another happy tourist to boost our booming economy".
Just about sums it up I thought.

Rich:

For starters, I find it extremely unlikely that more than 50% of all Swazis became refugees in South Africa during a single calendar year. If that was the case, then Swaziland would be entirely depopulated within two years. Has this happened? Not to my knowledge, it hasn't.

People are actually allowed to cross borders into neighbouring states more than once per year - in fact many Swazis do it once per month after payday, so that would effectively divide your number by twelve. Plus, a quick stroll down a street in city centre tells you hom many foreigners there are trying to hawk stuff, and just this week the Red Cross had to intervene in some 'ethnic cleansing' in Mamelodi because of the number of foreigners. Either way they are hardly grand prix punters.

Finally, believing any numbers put out by the South African statistics board is dangerous - just last year the CEO admitted to major failings in all sorts of stats, incl inflation.

But whatever the situation, I said earlier in this post that there is no money for a grand prix, and all these stats do, inflated as they may be, is go a long way towards proving it. Thanks for that.

Interestingly enough I recently had this very same discussion on a South African forum. And most people believed that a Grand Prix would actually be a better prospect then the socker world cup. And the reasoning is simple, both would probably cost about the same amount of money. However, the socker world cup is an once off, the government are selling the idea in the disguise of "job creation", but how much permanent jobs will it really offer being a once off? A Grand prix while also costing a lot of money is at least once a year.

Like some member has already mentioned by the route in which thing are developing, the socker world cup might be taken away in any case. Because some of the stadiums hasn't even started with the construction yet.

The problem is definitely not money! The problem lies more in the application of money. I have a few family members that works for the government, specifically with budgets and with prestige budgets (all the funds for the top level government officials like ministers and parliament members). And 90% of these budgets are never even spent, many departments struggle to spent and allocate even as little as 10% of their budgets because of unproductively and corruption, or there is just plainly not enough skilled people to do all the work. But at the same time the prestige equivalent of these budgets are sometimes overspended by up to 400%. So where is the money going that is not utilized?

To those who said that the economy is growing and blooming, I would say there aren't really any facts to support that suggestions, it is more of the "propaganda" sort of news that gets distributed from time to time. The economy is actually in a steep recession. Interest rates are going up, inflation is rising and unemployment is at a all time high (46% last time checked). And because of the laws (monetary policy) instituted by the government; most recently the new credit act, many spheres of the private sector are "punished" even harder (most recently the motor and property industries). And to finish it off more and more skilled people are leaving the country. For example the recent blackout or "loadshedding" are partly attributed to not enough skilled professionals. But because of this some mine workers has already been retrenched, but at the same time that we don't have any electricity, we are providing power, free of charge to Zimbabwe and Botswana. The same with petrol, while we have to pay more and more we are proving other African countries petrol free of charge. And all the while the ministers receive wage increases of 62%. I personally feel we definitely have the money.;)

And it is exactly because of all these situations that I feel a Grand prix might actually have positive effect on the country, and there is some advantages for all. For a start the government will be forced deal with some of these issue (like the crime problems), especially because there is an international audience involved. And for the tourist who wants to visit the Grand pix it will be an advantage that the Rand isn't worth much these days, and of course tourism is always good for any country.

Originally posted by intelligentsia


So where is the money going that is not utilized?

We can all sing along to this one together.

Where has all the money gone?
Long time asking
Where has all the money gone?
Long time ago
Where has all the money gone?
It must be very plain
It´s all aboard, the gravy train.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Mel, I think it´s only fair you allow me to answer this one, then no more, I promise.

1) Fatgadget, extolling the virtues of apartheid? However did you arrive at that conclusion? Just because the country (SA) is a mess now, has absolutely nothing to do with apartheid. It has everything to do with the ANC. If they are making the apartheid period look good, then that´s their problem.
2) In my time Rhodesia was a beacon of hope in Africa, for ALL her people.
3) I treated all people, irrespective of their colour, with respect.
4) Just for your information, we never "abandoned" our country to Mugabe. I fought alongside my fellow white and black countrymen for three years in the bush war, until the international community, and Britain in particular, stabbed us in the back. But that´s another story.
5) I am retired and live in Switzerland.

Hope that answers your questions.

Now this I got to hear LOL

What were you fighting for? And who were you fighting?

I will tell you shall I. You were fighting for white supremacy same as Apartheid South Africa was. Full stop.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


It´s all aboard, the gravy train.

...and that about sums it up.

This thread seem to continue here:

http://forums.autosp...152#post3192152

Originally posted by Felix
This thread seem to continue here:

http://forums.autosp...152#post3192152

Thanks