Kovalainen's Crash

I think a better question than barrier design is run-off design. I can't remember where I read this (I'm pretty sure it was in an older book) but someone suggested deep mud is the best substance to slow down a moving car. It wouldn't be visually attractive, but perhaps it could be the last component of a multi-stage run-off area.

Bahrain was atrocious--Hamilton shouldn't have made impact with that much run off.

Joe: I think your estimates were remarkably accurate.

I don't know whether to be pleased to hear that a lot of research work has gone into the tyre barriers, or disappointed that it seems to have had so little effect. Single-seaters have had pointy noses for a long long time, but still the barriers aren't resistant to them.

And 5 tyres of depth makes a total of about 3.5 metres depth? If the car only indents that by 1m (if the belt stays intact) then it's not very efficient. OK if higher speeds are being designed for but it seems too stiff. From your earlier post it looks like if the belt hadn't split it would have been 48g -ish? And that's critical injury range?

I have to agree with Joe. People under estimate what efforts and science have gone into not only the safety barriers but the medical response.

And to those comments that it took too long to get to Heikki:
0:00 - Heikki impacts barrier
0:09 - at 9 seconds 4 marshalls standing within the car with more approaching.
0:19 - Call from marshalls for the tractor to help with extrication of vehicle
0:39 - Marshalls attempting to use man power to lift the conveyor belt and tyres off of Heikki (without luck)
1:07 - Intervention Vehicle is dispatched from pitlane to attend the scene immedietly.
2:34 - Intervential Vehicle arrives on scene and Heikki's car has been removed from the barriers.


I cant rememer exactly off the top of my head but i think the rule in a critical incident is that you have 2 mins? I cant remember but i know i have seen it somewhere.

Anyway, every situation can be improved upon but that does not mean that something was done incorrectly or too slowly.

Originally posted by Mat
I have to agree with Joe. People under estimate what efforts and science have gone into not only the safety barriers but the medical response.

And to those comments that it took too long to get to Heikki:
0:00 - Heikki impacts barrier
0:09 - at 9 seconds 4 marshalls standing within the car with more approaching.
0:19 - Call from marshalls for the tractor to help with extrication of vehicle
0:39 - Marshalls attempting to use man power to lift the conveyor belt and tyres off of Heikki (without luck)
1:07 - Intervention Vehicle is dispatched from pitlane to attend the scene immedietly.
2:34 - Intervential Vehicle arrives on scene and Heikki's car has been removed from the barriers.


I cant rememer exactly off the top of my head but i think the rule in a critical incident is that you have 2 mins? I cant remember but i know i have seen it somewhere.

Anyway, every situation can be improved upon but that does not mean that something was done incorrectly or too slowly.

2-3 minutes if the person is not breathing.

saw this vid posted in another thread



amazing. its kinda weird how the camera zooms out from TV to track just when kova goes off.

Something that came to my mind and I don't think anyone ever considered it before (I might be wrong). You all know that there's a drink button on the steering wheel which driver presses to activate the electrical pump to push the drinking fluid trough the tube into his helmet. It just occurred to me how dangerous this system is.

What would happen if drink button got activated due to crash and pumped fluid into Heikki's open mouth for 2 or 3 minutes?!!!

I know that drivers don't keep the tube in their mouth all the time but when unconscious it would be deadly enough if pump would small amount of fluid that would reach driver's throat.

I'm not an influential person and I'm not trying to be a smart ass but only for the sake of driver's safety I appeal on those who can pass a word to point this out to FIA, GPDA, teams...!

If Heikki's drink button got activated he'd be dead since he'd drown before marshals came to deactivate electrical circuit on his car!

In theory, but wouldn't the impact probably have knocked the plastic tube out of his mouth?

Originally posted by jdanton
In theory, but wouldn't the impact probably have knocked the plastic tube out of his mouth?

i guess the chances of the above happening are very small, but it CAN happen. if, god forbid, something like that were to happen i cant imagine what the public reaction would be for overlooking such a basic thing.
however, its entirely possible that power is automatically cut to the pump in the event of a crash. only an F1 engineer would be able to shed light on that.

Originally posted by manchild
Something that came to my mind and I don't think anyone ever considered it before (I might be wrong). You all know that there's a drink button on the steering wheel which driver presses to activate the electrical pump to push the drinking fluid trough the tube into his helmet. It just occurred to me how dangerous this system is.

What would happen if drink button got activated due to crash and pumped fluid into Heikki's open mouth for 2 or 3 minutes?!!!

I know that drivers don't keep the tube in their mouth all the time but when unconscious it would be deadly enough if pump would small amount of fluid that would reach driver's throat.

I'm not an influential person and I'm not trying to be a smart ass but only for the sake of driver's safety I appeal on those who can pass a word to point this out to FIA, GPDA, teams...!

If Heikki's drink button got activated he'd be dead since he'd drown before marshals came to deactivate electrical circuit on his car!

Its possible. I am sure that does happen with much of the car - the fuel system would be turned off for instance. But not having first hand experience with today's F1 cars I don't know to what extent the electronics are isolated during and after a crash. In fact I don't even know if an F1 car has a battery, or if it uses capacitors instead.

luckly (well not for some) those friendly chaps that interrigation for the americans would known.... water boarding :

http://en.wikipedia....i/Waterboarding

F1 cars do have battery and the power isn't automatically cut off. There are two switches (marked with red lightning stickers*) for that purpose, one in the cockpit at the reach of the driver and the other behind driver's head, outside to be operated by marshals. Even if the tube is out of mouth several drops reaching mouth would be enough to cause drowning! Open mouth are quite large target for a pipe and head doesn't move inside the helmet.

*


There is even worse scenario. Since the drink tank is located on the floor of the cockpit when the car flips upside down the fluid from the tube draining down to driver's mouth could cause drowning even if the pump isn't running!

Originally posted by manchild
F1 cars do have battery and the power isn't automatically cut off. There are two switches (marked with red lightning stickers*) for that purpose, one in the cockpit at the reach of the driver and the other behind driver's head, outside to be operated by marshals. Even if the tube is out of mouth several drops reaching mouth would be enough to cause drowning! Open mouth are quite large target for a pipe and head doesn't move inside the helmet.

*

You have a point. As simple solution would be a pressure valve in the tube, requiring the driver to squeeze the tube in order to open the valve in the tube. Hence a slack jaw would stop any fluid. Also electrical method would work. This could be actuated by many devices, even the speed of the car, if the car goes less than 20 kmh, then it might not work. Its easy to fix - but that should be measured against probability. Maybe no one is worried about it?

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Maybe no one is worried about it?

No one was worried about Tamburello despite Piquet's and Berger's horrible crashes from 1987 and 1989. They get worried when someone dies or gets seriously injured.





Anyway, I agree that drinking in cockpit can be easily made safe but I wonder is it safe now?

Originally posted by manchild

No one was worried about Tamburello despite Piquet's and Berger's horrible crashes from 1987 and 1989. They get worried when someone dies or gets seriously injured.

Email Webber - he's a director of the drivers body, or email them direct. Really if a combined pressure switch activated by your mouth squeezing the tube, with the water delivered by the wheel button, that would be easy to make.

But Webber might not worry about it - he has complained about the water he gets in his RBR4. He says it is literally boiling water, and very difficult to drink! So for RBR, such an extra technology might take a long time coming!

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Email Webber - he's a director of the drivers body, or email them direct.

I'd email GPDA but they don't have an email address known to me nor a site. Webber has a site but that's not his private email there but webmasters.

Perhaps I should email FIA but I'm not giving my email to them while that Nazi pervert is still on top (I got a reputation to maintain ).

Originally posted by manchild

I'd email GPDA but they don't have an email address known to me nor a site. Webber has a site but that's not his private email there but webmasters.

Write a letter. they will write back. You could frame it. If Webber signs it, you could auction it. I'll bid for it too!

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


You have a point. As simple solution would be a pressure valve in the tube, requiring the driver to squeeze the tube in order to open the valve in the tube. Hence a slack jaw would stop any fluid. Also electrical method would work. This could be actuated by many devices, even the speed of the car, if the car goes less than 20 kmh, then it might not work. Its easy to fix - but that should be measured against probability. Maybe no one is worried about it?

That's more or less how it works: there's a pressure valve in the tube which allows water to run when the driver press a button. I remember some years ago when Alonso explained how it worked in a documentary. The week earlier (I think it was Malaysia 2003? or some race in 2005, when he was in the podium and he was struggling to stand on his feet), the pressure valve of his car failed and Alonso couldn't drink any water in the whole race. He finnished almost deshidratated in that race.

Originally posted by Nadsat


That's more or less how it works: there's a pressure valve in the tube which allows water to run when the driver press a button. I remember some years ago when Alonso explained how it worked in a documentary. The week earlier (I think it was Malaysia 2003? or some race in 2005, when he was in the podium and he was struggling to stand on his feet), the pressure valve of his car failed and Alonso couldn't drink any water in the whole race. He finnished almost deshidratated in that race.

I remember that too.

I still am bemused about the RBR4 system providing boiling water! I guess Newey saved some weight by placing the water bladder in a better aero spot.

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I remember that too.

I still am bemused about the RBR4 system providing boiling water! I guess Newey saved some weight by placing the water bladder in a better aero spot.

I dont think anyone is getting cold water though, to be honest..

i'm sure i've heard before that cold drinks in warm weather dehydrate you quicker,or something like that anyway

Originally posted by stevvy1986
i'm sure i've heard before that cold drinks in warm weather dehydrate you quicker,or something like that anyway

Yeah, you're right. That's the reason in the Sahara desert tuaregs drink the tea almost boiling. If you put in your body drinks with higher temperature than the environment, you feel that the environment is a little bit colder.

PD: The Alonso trouble with the bottle of water happened in Malaysia 2005.

'Doctor: Heikki may not race in Turkey'
Friday 2nd May 2008

McLaren driver Heikki Kovalainen could miss next weekend's Turkish GP on advise from his personal doctor.

During last Sunday's Spanish GP, the Finn suffered a huge shunt, which saw him hit a tyre wall head-on while traveling at 140mph. Kovalainen was knocked unconscious in the accident and kept in hospital overnight as a precautionary measure.


It later emerged that he had suffered nothing more than a concussion with McLaren declaring that he should be fit to race in next weekend's Turkish GP.


However, according to Spanish newspaper Marca, Kovalainen's personal doctor Aki Hintsa believes McLaren may have been premature in announcing that the Finn will race next weekend.


The recovery time for a concussion varies depending on the severity, however, the fear is that a second knock could result in irreparable brain damage or even death.


Based on that Kovalainen will have to pass a FIA medical test on the Thursday prior to the Turkish GP before being cleared to race.


And should he not be allowed to race McLaren will most likely call up Pedro de la Rosa as his replacement.


http://www.planetf1....3509498,00.html


Anyway, I wouldn't trust so much in 'Marca'...

Originally posted by Slowinfastout


I dont think anyone is getting cold water though, to be honest..

In NASCAR drivers actually do. The one system I have seen was "co-developed between Rousch racing and the Gatorade Performance Lab." It's basically a flat silvered bladder that's about the shape and size of the passenger side window opening. Supposedly keeps the drink noticeably cooler than ambient 3 hours.

Originally posted by Nadsat
'Doctor: Heikki may not race in Turkey'
Friday 2nd May 2008

McLaren driver Heikki Kovalainen could miss next weekend's Turkish GP on advise from his personal doctor.

During last Sunday's Spanish GP, the Finn suffered a huge shunt, which saw him hit a tyre wall head-on while traveling at 140mph. Kovalainen was knocked unconscious in the accident and kept in hospital overnight as a precautionary measure.


It later emerged that he had suffered nothing more than a concussion with McLaren declaring that he should be fit to race in next weekend's Turkish GP.


However, according to Spanish newspaper Marca, Kovalainen's personal doctor Aki Hintsa believes McLaren may have been premature in announcing that the Finn will race next weekend.


The recovery time for a concussion varies depending on the severity, however, the fear is that a second knock could result in irreparable brain damage or even death.


Based on that Kovalainen will have to pass a FIA medical test on the Thursday prior to the Turkish GP before being cleared to race.


And should he not be allowed to race McLaren will most likely call up Pedro de la Rosa as his replacement.


http://www.planetf1....3509498,00.html


Anyway, I wouldn't trust so much in 'Marca'...

Found this on the front page.... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/67083

Have to say I'm a bit alarmed that less than a week after a head trauma he is already taking part in physical training with the approval of his team. Usually following a classic concussion with unconsciousness doctors will advise plenty of bed rest and refraining from physical exertion to allow things to settle down in the brain.

The thing is with concussion new symptoms can appear anywhere upto approximately 10 days after the head trauma occurred, so its a little bit early for McLaren to be declaring he will definitely be taking part in the next Grand Prix.

One positive is that Gary Hartstein the FIA medical delegate (who replaced Sid Watkins) is a professor in Emergency Medicine so he will be **** hot in this speciality, so if there is any doubt whatsoever he won't let Kovy race.

Right soon after crash when Dennis said something that Heikki will "surely" drive in next race, Hintsa was critical about that comment in TS. So Marca might be telling that story as delayed.

TS says now that Heikki will have FIA's memory and reaction tests. He will be asked same questions as before the season and he has to answer them surely as back then.

Kubica could not manage these questions 4 days after his Canada crash.

Heikki is now in Finland training and will have full medical check.

I hope so. Although I'd love to see Pedro de la Rosa driving a McLaren in this season as a driver (I'm a Pedro de la Rosa fan since 1999) I would prefer that Heikki is 100% recovered. Kovalainen is one of the most nice drivers in F1. He never had a bad word against any of the other drivers in the grid and he's always in good mood and good style. I hope he's good, because I felt that his crash was really really serious after seeing that his helmet was under the tyre barrier. If De la Rosa is the official driver in Turkey I'll be very pleased in both ways: De la Rosa is driving again and Kovalainen is recovering himself for a best personal security.

But my first option is that Kovalainen is OK 100%. Go Heikki!!!

On reading Autosport's report, since there are no secondary issues accrding to Kova, although Whitmarsh refers to secondary issues not getting worse ("development of") , and Kova's neck pain is gone, he seems to be quite OK.

The team's F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh said: "Our team doctor has kept an eye on him during the week both in Spain and then at the Kuortane Sports Institute in Finland and there has been no development of any secondary symptoms so everything is positive on that front.

"Before travelling to Istanbul, we will organise a full neurological examination for Heikki with our specialists in Finland as a matter of course. He will then have the mandatory FIA evaluation on Thursday at the circuit, which is a routine neuro and physiological test completed after any concussion.

"Of course we have a plan in place should the FIA request Heikki sits this race out, as at all Grands Prix, but we have a race driver who is naturally impatient to get back out there and this is the aim of the team. That said, we will fully respect the decision of the medical professionals, they are the specialists."

Kovalainen Unfazed by Barcelona Crash

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
although Whitmarsh refers to secondary issues not getting worse ("development of")

I would think "there has been no development of secondary issues" means no secondary issues have appeared!?

Could be my bad English, though...McLaren/Ron-style complex sentences are tough for me to understand

Originally posted by AFCA
Massa: Post-Spanish Grand Prix

.......

........

I was very pleased to hear that Heikki was okay after his accident. For sure, if you have a failure on the car, there is nothing you can do as a driver. Given how hard the impact was and the fact that he escaped injury means the track safety features were generally the way they should be. And the car stood up very well too. The only unusual feature was that the car went under and through the tyre barrier and so did his head. That is a bit scary and I think the FIA should look into the construction of the whole barrier system. One other element of the race weekend that the FIA could look at is the new rule about the pit lane remaining closed for some laps under Safety Car conditions. ...... ......

This AFCA translation comes from the F2008 thread. Interesting about Massa's comments on the barrier.

Concerning McLaren's comments, I thought they were quite conditional, because Dennis was saying 'from what he's been told'. I think when a crash looks bad and then the driver's body is untouched, there is a lot of relief. The unseen damage of course can be quite serious. But if he's training, that is a good sign. If he still has headaches though, then I would be concerned about him racing. Still the doc will check out all that I guess.

Originally posted by Spunout


I would think "there has been no development of secondary issues" means no secondary issues have appeared!?

Could be my bad English, though...McLaren/Ron-style complex sentences are tough for me to understand

I think that would refer to the headaches and the neck soreness. Such a sore neck can be related the headaches, due to nerve damage, and the headaches can be but one effect. Loss of concentration, light sensitiveness, lack of appetite, fatigue are other symptons that can be related to the neck, or due to the brain itself. I am no a medico though, although I know a bit about concussions and post concussive traumas, but Chiara is a medico.

Nova said he no longer has the headache and his neck is fine, so he would appear to be fine, but the doctor will ensure he really is. Its great news IMO.

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


I think that would refer to the headaches and the neck soreness. Such a sore neck can be related the headaches, due to nerve damage, and the headaches can be but one effect. Loss of concentration, light sensitiveness, lack of appetite, fatigue are other symptons that can be related to the neck, or due to the brain itself. I am no a medico though, although I know a bit about concussions and post concussive traumas, but Chiara is a medico.

Nova said he no longer has the headache and his neck is fine, so he would appear to be fine, but the doctor will ensure he really is. Its great news IMO.

I asked somebody who has worked with pro athletes about this; he said majority of headaches are related to the neck/shoulder area (his expertise...relieving muscle cramps and stuff like that). Especially many of the mysterious cases where local hospitals prescribe big pile of pills and off you go. He even showed me few typical spots to look for, including the one that made my head sore after minor crash in Sunday race. Neat tips for my office worker friends, too!!! It is easy to figure out stopping from high speed causes muscles to cramp. Whether "stiff neck" was connected to Kovy´s headache, I don´t know. Either way, the fact that it went away so fast suggests there was no long-term/permanent damage.

Obviously, this is all guessing. Head injury stuff goes way over my head

All in the hands of Docs now, I guess

Originally posted by Spunout


I asked somebody who has worked with pro athletes about this; he said majority of headaches are related to the neck/shoulder area (his expertise...relieving muscle cramps and stuff like that). Especially many of the mysterious cases where local hospitals prescribe big pile of pills and off you go. He even showed me few typical spots to look for, including the one that made my head sore after minor crash in Sunday race. Neat tips for my office worker friends, too!!! It is easy to figure out stopping from high speed causes muscles to cramp. Whether "stiff neck" was connected to Kovy´s headache, I don´t know. Either way, the fact that it went away so fast suggests there was no long-term/permanent damage.

Obviously, this is all guessing. Head injury stuff goes way over my head

All in the hands of Docs now, I guess

Interesting. I think one thing that would have assisted Kova was his strength. His body would have been in 100% defence mode, so would yours.

Its true that many headaches are best fixed at source rather than through pills. Diet for instance with many. Obviously not yours or Kova's!

Do F1 drivers train neck? They must, but only slow twitch by default. He used fast twitch, thus the soreness.

How many people have been in a good road car accident? Sometimes your whole body hurts. Kovi could very well have (some very cool and F1 driver variety of) whiplash.

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
Do F1 drivers train neck? They must, but only slow twitch by default. He used fast twitch, thus the soreness.

How many people have been in a good road car accident? Sometimes your whole body hurts. Kovi could very well have (some very cool and F1 driver variety of) whiplash.

Without physically assessing the patient oneself we can only surmise what it is, the most obvious cause of Kovy's neck pain would be whiplash from the initial impact of the crash. Doctors would usually only make a diagnosis of (PCS) post concussive syndrome if the physical and psychological after effects of the initial head trauma did not go away within a few weeks after onset of symptoms.

Incidentally you can get a concussion from whiplash itself without actually physically hitting the head if the brain is forced at high impact against the side of the skull. I haven't actually seen the video yet, is there evidence of his head hitting anything? side of the car for instance?

Thus far from what's been reported the signs are encouraging enough for Kovy, so far he hasn't developed any further symptoms that we know of and his initial headache/neck pain seems to have resolved within a few days which is very encouraging. We won't know any more until he is assessed by a Neurologist to check his cognitive functions.

Obviously much depends on how serious the concussion was in the first place, thought you might find this interesting from the American Academy of Neurology:

Grades of concussion

Concussion is classified into five grades

1. The mildest, grade I, involves only confusion.
2. Grade II involves anterograde amnesia that lasts less than five minutes as well as confusion.
3. Grade III involves the symptoms above, as well as retrograde amnesia and unconsciousness for less than five minutes.
4. Grade IV involves all of the above symptoms, as well as unconsciousness that lasts between 5 and 10 minutes.
5. Grade V is the same as grade IV, with unconsciousness lasting longer than ten minutes.

The American Academy of Neurology (AAN) guidelines make it clear that permanent brain injury can occur with either Grade 2 or Grade 3 concussion. Thus, it is clear that subtle brain injury can have permanent consequences if the acute symptoms of the concussion continue for more than 15 minutes.

Each grade comes with different recommendations for patients who play sports:

* In grade I, the patient may return to contact sports in 20 minutes.
* A patient with a second time grade I concussion may return to play contact sports in 2 weeks after being asymptomatic for a week.
* In grade II, the patient may return to contact sports in 1 week of being asymptomatic.
* A second time grade II may return to play contact sports 1 month after being asymptomatic for a week.
* In grade III, the patient may return to contact sports in 1 month.
* For a patient with a second time grade III concussion, the season is over.

Originally posted by Chiara


Without physically assessing the patient oneself we can only surmise what it is, the most obvious cause of Kovy's neck pain would be whiplash from the initial impact of the crash. Doctors would usually only make a diagnosis of (PCS) post concussive syndrome if the physical and psychological after effects of the initial head trauma did not go away within a few weeks after onset of symptoms.

Incidentally you can get a concussion from whiplash itself without actually physically hitting the head if the brain is forced at high impact against the side of the skull. I haven't actually seen the video yet, is there evidence of his head hitting anything? side of the car for instance?

Thus far from what's been reported the signs are encouraging enough for Kovy, so far he hasn't developed any further symptoms that we know of and his initial headache/neck pain seems to have resolved within a few days which is very encouraging. We won't know any more until he is assessed by a Neurologist to check his cognitive functions.

Obviously much depends on how serious the concussion was in the first place, thought you might find this interesting from the American Academy of Neurology:


Grades of concussion

Concussion is classified into five grades

1. The mildest, grade I, involves only confusion.
2. Grade II involves anterograde amnesia that lasts less than five minutes as well as confusion.
3. Grade III involves the symptoms above, as well as retrograde amnesia and unconsciousness for less than five minutes.
4. Grade IV involves all of the above symptoms, as well as unconsciousness that lasts between 5 and 10 minutes.
5. Grade V is the same as grade IV, with unconsciousness lasting longer than ten minutes.

The American Academy of Neurology (AAN) guidelines make it clear that permanent brain injury can occur with either Grade 2 or Grade 3 concussion. Thus, it is clear that subtle brain injury can have permanent consequences if the acute symptoms of the concussion continue for more than 15 minutes.

Each grade comes with different recommendations for patients who play sports:

* In grade I, the patient may return to contact sports in 20 minutes.
* A patient with a second time grade I concussion may return to play contact sports in 2 weeks after being asymptomatic for a week.
* In grade II, the patient may return to contact sports in 1 week of being asymptomatic.
* A second time grade II may return to play contact sports 1 month after being asymptomatic for a week.
* In grade III, the patient may return to contact sports in 1 month.
* For a patient with a second time grade III concussion, the season is over.

I wonder about the time frame? When they say second time, does that mean last year, but 5 years ago is OK?

I often think of Ralf with this type of thing, IMO he seemed not quite the same when he came back in I think late 2005.

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I wonder about the time frame? When they say second time, does that mean last year, but 5 years ago is OK?

I often think of Ralf with this type of thing, IMO he seemed not quite the same when he came back in I think late 2005.

I don't know exactly MP : I would imagine they mean within a short time frame where the brain has not had ample opportunity to recover from the first concussion, but I'm by no means an expert in the field of Neurology unfortunately. Sorry.

This article has a bit more on the guidelines for physicians about the assessment and management of concussion within the sports arena....

http://www.aafp.org/...0901ap/887.html

Originally posted by Chiara

Incidentally you can get a concussion from whiplash itself without actually physically hitting the head if the brain is forced at high impact against the side of the skull. I haven't actually seen the video yet, is there evidence of his head hitting anything? side of the car for instance?

Apparently the hit his head on the conveyor belt, with the car going through it, the marshalls found red paint on his helmet. I think Martin Whitmarsh mentioned this too.

Also you can get a rotational brain injury where the skull rotates around the neck and brain lags behind giving shear injuries, though the Hans device should have prevented/limited this.

But from what MW said I think his head was pushed right back into the headrest by the tyrewall.