Info on some secondary US drivers

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wark611
I'm looking for infos on some US drivers that, even marginally, were involved in F.1 during that period (1950-1960)./QUOTE]
Away from your main list, don't forget that Indy driver Troy Ruttmann and Carroll Shelby raced in the 1958 French GP in Centro Sud Coopers, duly painted white and blue, as they were still in Europe after the Monza 500 mile Race
Roger Lund.

I spotted your deliberate mistake, Roger
The Centro-Sud cars were of course Maseratis that year

Absolutely right, David, perhaps it was the colour scheme which confused me....... I should have checked.
RL

Originally posted by fines
- Ben Zukor

... was entered in 1950 as the driver of #76 "Pioneer Auto Repair Special", owned by John Lorenz. I don't know if Mr. Zukor ever appeared at the track (or any of his personal "data", for that matter), but the car was eventually qualified by Jim Rathmann, and finished 24th and last. It was a Schoof/Offenhauser, apparently built in 1939.

I have some info about Ben Zukor!
Real name was Ben Zukas(perhaps Lithuanian???),he ran UARA midget in Hanson Park in 1947.Won june 20 and August1,8 with an Reichenbach Brother built V8 Nr#45
He passed away 2/24/57 age 39(perhaps he was born in 1918)
Listed Hometown:Chicago
These infos send me Stan Kalwasinski

Originally posted by Wark611
Hello,
my name is Davide Marchi, I'm an Italian journalist, I'm looking for infos on some US drivers that, even marginally, were involved in F.1 during that period (1950-1960).

- Joe Giba
Did not qualify at 1958 Indianapolis 500
- I need his date of death (I only now is October 1986 but I don't know on which day)

- Bill Doster
I only know he tried to qualify for Indy 1953 on a Volker-Offenhauser by Olszeswki. I also know he tried twice to race at Detroit in 1951 and 1953.
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.

- Jim Mayes
DId not qualify a Kurtis-Offy by Dr. Morris at the 1953 Indianapolis 500
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.

- Dick Page
Did not qualify a car that probably was a Kurtis-Offy by Bardahl/Page (probably is own team in part) at the 1951 Indisnapolis 500. I say "probably" because on the same year he drove that car at a race at San Jose.
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.
I also need confermation of the car he drove at Indy

- Roscoe Rann
Did not qualify at 1951 Indianapolis 500.
I don't know on what chassis-engine and team

- Albert Scully
Did not arrive, but was entered, at 1952 Indianapolis 500 on a car entered by Ellen Automic team. I need to know the chassis and the engine.
I also know he was from Chicago but I don't know his birthdate and (eventually) his deathdate and place

- Roy Sherman, born Roy Scheuermann
Did not qualify at the 1951 Indianapolis 500.
I don't know on what chassis-engine and team even if that year he drove at Langhorne and Darlington on a Silnes/Sherman-Offy by Leitenberge, so probably he was driving the same car at Indy too

and finally

- Ben Zukor
Was entered but then declined due to phisical problems at 1950 Indianapolis 500.
I don't know on what chassis-engine and team
I also need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.

Hello Davide!

I have a new list:

-George Armstrong did not arrived at 1952 "500" He came from Dallas,TX andentered R.E.Moore.Chassis-engine-number i don't know

_Edgar Elmer #49 Crawford Kurtis500B-Offy and he failed the rookie orientation
http://www.champcars...aces/195301.htm and http://www.champcars...aces/195201.htm
"You don't have to be a World Champion to do that. I could have done that!"
Paco Godia on J.M. Fangio returning to the pits on a badly damaged Maserati 300S Sportcar

At the Hoosier 100 in 1955 Elder was unable to start because he crashed on his second hot qualifying lap. Drivers needed to complete 2 laps in qualifying and his first was fast enough for pole...he went on to build ChampCars.

Originally posted by sramoa
Hello Davide!

I have a new list:

-George Armstrong did not arrived at 1952 "500" He came from Dallas,TX andentered R.E.Moore.Chassis-engine-number i don't know

_Edgar Elmer #49 Crawford Kurtis500B-Offy and he failed the rookie orientation
http://www.champcars...aces/195301.htm and http://www.champcars...aces/195201.htm

Vivid imagination? I have the entry list of the 1952 Indy 500 and I can assure you there is no "R. E. Moore Special" entered, and no sign of a Mr. Armstrong in the drivers nor the entrant names lists! I also have a VERY extensive database of US open-wheel drivers of the 20th century and the only Mr. Armstrong even remotely fitting the criteriae to be involved in such a scenario would be Art Armstrong from California. Neither Art Armstrong, nor George Armstrong, nor Louis Armstrong or even Neil Armstrong arrived at Indy in '52 to practise and/or race, and I'm pretty sure none of them ever returned an entry blank, or even received one for that matter...

As for "Edgar Elmer", might that be a typo for Edgar Elder who was chief mechanic for Crawford many years later? He was an accomplished Midget racing driver, and the son of the famous Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder, US motorcycle racing pioneer. He was also the father of racing driver Eddie Elder.

"Sprouts"? I bet he went like the wind.

Originally posted by fines
the only Mr. Armstrong even remotely fitting the criteriae to be involved in such a scenario would be Art Armstrong from California. Neither Art Armstrong, nor George Armstrong, nor Louis Armstrong or even Neil Armstrong arrived at Indy in '52 to practise and/or race, and I'm pretty sure none of them ever returned an entry blank, or even received one for that matter...

It wasn't me either, as that was over three years before I was born ;) And my father was in Egypt, waiting to be evacuated ....

Originally posted by fines

Vivid imagination? I have the entry list of the 1952 Indy 500 and I can assure you there is no "R. E. Moore Special" entered, and no sign of a Mr. Armstrong in the drivers nor the entrant names lists! I also have a VERY extensive database of US open-wheel drivers of the 20th century and the only Mr. Armstrong even remotely fitting the criteriae to be involved in such a scenario would be Art Armstrong from California. Neither Art Armstrong, nor George Armstrong, nor Louis Armstrong or even Neil Armstrong arrived at Indy in '52 to practise and/or race, and I'm pretty sure none of them ever returned an entry blank, or even received one for that matter...

As for "Edgar Elmer", might that be a typo for Edgar Elder who was chief mechanic for Crawford many years later? He was an accomplished Midget racing driver, and the son of the famous Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder, US motorcycle racing pioneer. He was also the father of racing driver Eddie Elder.

...this is a very satisfactory answer !Thank you very much!Do you have all official entry lists like this database?Would you be able to send it to me?

Thanks

In the immortal words of Lee Corso, "Not so fast, my friend!" Here's a press service article that appeared in a number of newspapers in April of 1952:



I think it is clear that Armstrong and company never showed up. They certainly wouldn't be the first batch of dreamers to realize they bit off more than they could chew and bailed out. An early withdrawal could explain why they didn't show up on a later entry list. But they did indeed file an entry.

THANK YOU so much!
These ghost drivers are getting me crazy...


So now we have an Armstrong...

Davide

And tonight I found another one.

Bruce Jacobi who's entry was declined in 1960 because he wasn't experienced enaugh...

But if Jacobi and Elder have no secrets the Armstrong question is really complex... as I don't remember any other R. E. Moore sponsored/entered driver. So it's difficult (if not impossible) try to imaginate what car he was to drive.
We obviously don't know his bio datas too...

I think I'll dream of George tonight...

Davide

Catching up a bit here...

Good job on Zukor, sramoa

Michael, good bio on Edgar Elder, but Eddie?...I never heard an announcer call him anything other than Edgar Elder Jr.

Dick Page apparently was from the San Jose area and raced on the California Stock Car Racing Association circuit (like Johnny Key), though the jump from CSCRA to AAA seems odd. Key did it, but in the Midwest. Thanks to Jim Lowe for sending me a scan of the cover of a regional racing publication that featured a head shot photo of Page.

Eddie Elder, Billy Cantrell... one finds those names quite often in print, even if announcers apparently refused to use them!;)

About Dick Page, odd yes, but don't forget the car owner he was driving for: Ross Page! I am guessing at a family relation here...;)

About George Armstrong and R. E. Moore (how long will it take till somebody makes a connection to the Oldfield/Marmon and the Rounds/Offy? ), the number of nutcases that tried to get their name into print in connection with Indy is astounding. These two apparently didn't even have the decency to come up with the entry fee, so they're not even a footnote in racing history.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Jay Abney. Richie and I came up with Jay Oliver Abney (b. 26 Aug 1931 Anaheim, California, d. 10 Jun 1958 Sutter, California). I recently received the newspaper items on Abney that appeared in the Yuba City Appeal-Democrat. An item on his fatal truck accident in Sutter County and his obituary. He was listed as a commercial truck driver employed by his stepfather, a resident of Linda, California at the time, and was listed as a native of Santa Ana, California (conflicting with the state death index records, but they are adjacent cities). Among survivors listed, father, Jay, of Sacramento.

That's it, no other biographical data in his obit :

So, nothing conclusive. I have a feeling this may not be the right fellow, but as Richie noted, there aren't a lot of candidates.

Right, as Jim & Michael are aware, I am sifting through a long list of (mostly) Indianapolis "mysteries" and "am I sure they're the right man"?

This has gone reasonably well - with some new mysteries solved (all to be revealed soon), some mysteries still mysteries but different ones (also to be revealed) & a lot of... yep they're correct.


As you will see with Abney, I'm doing it alphabetically, and hence, I'm at the start of that list. And it's going wrong already


As Jim had feared, the Jay Abney above is NOT the man. He's not even from California.

THE Jay Abney was from Mesa, Arizona, although he also resided in Phoenix. He raced motorcycles, as previously mentioned, from just after WW2, before switching to stock-cars in the early 1950's, and later serving as regional president of the discipline. He was still racing cars in 1960 & 1961, according to reports in the Tucson papers, so it cannot possibly be the above.
And in none of the reports is he listed from California.

So... who is our man then?

Well, this unfortunately, is where the trail runs cold. The problem with Ancestry is it only covers a certain census period, which is why obscure 50's racers are not as easy to find out as obscure 20's ones.

As said before, the only male Abney at all in Arizona in the 1930 census is a Jay Abney, but he's a miner, and I don't think he would be racing at 60 years old - there's no mention of age. There's no sound-a-likes too, so at the moment, it's a complete blank and sadly, despite solving numerous mysteries lately, I have to add one more back on the list.

Sorry for the erronous dates, but this is why I am trying once & for all to sort everybody out so we are safe in the knowledge who we have "complete" is right, and then we can focus on the mysteries. Which each of those that end up wrong, there's been good reason to choose them based on what we had at the time, but there's continuing new biographical & supporting information, plus many more newspaper articles, so I am sure we'll get there in the end - maybe soon, I'll do a separate thread devoted to this research finding in more detail. When mysteries are solved, it's great! When mysteries are added, it's not.....

:

While you're at it, Richie, could you please check Leslie Allen once more? You have him born in 1904, which would make him quite young in 1924 when he first appears in my records, already a winner at a fair level! Also, I have a Les Allen listed without hometown in 1917 already, I have a feeling it is the same man, which would make him thirteen with your birth date!

Originally posted by fines
Eddie Elder, Billy Cantrell... one finds those names quite often in print, even if announcers apparently refused to use them!;)

About Dick Page, odd yes, but don't forget the car owner he was driving for: Ross Page! I am guessing at a family relation here...;)

Yes, but the announcers were right, the newspaper writers were not ;)

fines, do you know where Ross Page was from?

Originally posted by fines
While you're at it, Richie, could you please check Leslie Allen once more? You have him born in 1904, which would make him quite young in 1924 when he first appears in my records, already a winner at a fair level! Also, I have a Les Allen listed without hometown in 1917 already, I have a feeling it is the same man, which would make him thirteen with your birth date!

He's on the list, along with many others.

I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more mysteries added to my table, but I think I'd rather have that than the "wrong" man. :

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
fines, do you know where Ross Page was from?

San Jose, CA.;)

There was also a Bill Page, or possibly Paige, active in Southern California Big Cars in the twenties and thirties, hometown once (1927) listed as Reno (NV, presumably?), and once (1931) as Modesto. Not sure if it helps, or rather confuses the issue.

Hello wark611!

I have a new member:Bill Johnson 1951 Indy 500 dnq.He was from San Bernardino,CA.Raced in Pike's Peak at 1950

I cannot comment on Bill Johnson practising at Indy (many owners and chief mechanics did that), but all my sources show Don Padia driving (and non-starting) his car at Pikes Peak in 1950! What's your source, sramoa?

Hi fines!

http://www.inliners....y/pt_three.html
I found it here Bill Johnson-t concerned the champcarstats site(www.champcarstats.com)
This is my source

Originally posted by fines
Wally Campbell

... took the rookie test in Charlie Marant's 1948 Moore/Offenhauser. Marant had been a former associate of Lou Moore and bought the car after the 1950 Indianapolis race, in which George Connor finished 8th with it. Marant later became friendly with Campbell, and helped him with his Hillegass Sprint Car while running NASCAR. When Campbell was turned down by the Speedway officials, Marant sold the car to Bob Christie of Oregon, who in turn sold it to fellow Oregonian [help, Jim!] Rolla Vollstedt.

I have never heard of Campbell practicing in the Salemi car, but I haven't read the Andy Dunlop book yet. But, Campbell was definietly entered in the #66 for Marant; Salemi's car was entered as #42 without a driver, it eventually kept its former #81, and this became Salemi's standard number for next two decades.

Re. Wally Campbell - lots of material here.

http://wallycampbell.com/index.html

Regarding his '54 ride, was this the first time it appeared at the Speedway following its 1950 run? I can't see any mention of Charlie Marant at Indy in 51-53, but find it hard to believe that a top-10 car would have been mothballed for 4 years.

1948 #58
1949 #22
1950 #5
1951 #22
1952 #47
1953 #39
1954 #66

Afterwards, many more years on the dirt tracks (mainly #71).

I have a new Indy 500 driver in my list.Eddie Jackson in 1960 passed a rookie test.
He was a RMMRA champion inearly 1960s years and the oldest winner in Belleville Midgets National Championship in 1978(47 years old)
Listed Hometown:Denver,Colorado

Yes, a six-time Rocky Mountain Midget Champ - do you know which car he drove at Indy?

Yes he was.I don't have any infos this gay.(Possible he died in 1982?)Now I don't know which car raced Jackson.

While you're at it, Richie, could you please check Leslie Allen once more? You have him born in 1904, which would make him quite young in 1924 when he first appears in my records, already a winner at a fair level! Also, I have a Les Allen listed without hometown in 1917 already, I have a feeling it is the same man, which would make him thirteen with your birth date!

Michael,
I'm finally going through this list as best I can - I have done the A's at least!!! Only 9 months on

The Leslie Allen that I have is clearly wrong.
I have seen him listed, almost exclusively throughout 12 years of racing as being from Chicago. However, bizarrely, the Hartford Courant (CT) in 1930 lists him as coming from Pasadena & "not having much racing experience" - but there is no doubt the Leslie Allen who competed in 1930 was the same man who started off in motorcycles around 1914-1915.

He built his own cars & was often referred to as "Bugs" Allen - does the Bugs mean anything I wonder? Seemed very adept, especially around the Illinois tracks.

As to the dates - well, I reckon he was probably born around 1892-1895 at latest. There is a auto mechanic Leslie Allen b 5 mar 1892, but it's a leap from there to the actual answer - the censuses don't really help much. The problem is trying to remember where I got the death information from.... (i.e. was it separate or was it linked to a date?)

Again, any help would be appreciated as this looks like going to a "Indy Mystery" otherwise....

I will try to dig up all I can find on the man, but not today it's about bedtime!

Suffice it to say that he was most certainly a Chicago man, maybe not born there but clearly reared in the surroundings of the Windy City. In the early thirties, he was closely connected to one somewhat elusive figure called McCarthy, a man about whom I am trying to find particulars for ages already! I suspect a mob connection, too. The mention of Pasadena must be seen in connection with this, I gather, as this McCarthy appears to be the money man behind a racing team with Chicago connections that branched out into the Ascot Speedway scene in 1930. More anon!

Edited by fines, 20 June 2009 - 20:35.

New infos for "US secondary drivers":

Dick Page:Ross Page's son and raced some stock car event and build one-two cars.Every time:Listed Hometown:San José,CA

Jim Mayes:raced in TSRA(Tri State Racing Assotiation) -I think this serie is a big car (???)-and he had number is:JW10,and more three infos:he had five son,Listed Hometown:Rockport,IN and he raced in 1953 Raresportfilms Indy 500 video-not Eddie Sachs!

Albert Scully:maybe relation for Lou Scally???Lou Scally(Lou Scaramuzzo) raced this time in Chicago area(UARA midget)

and I have a new member this time:Joe Adas.I don't know more for him,only I have a news in 1950 where list of entry Indy 500 .

Yes, a six-time Rocky Mountain Midget Champ - do you know which car he drove at Indy?

Eddie Jackson tried to qualify at 1960 Indy 500 #62 Bob Jones car,Entered:Myron E. "Ozzie" Osborn

Source:From the great book, "The Roadster of Indianapolis...The Glory Days 1952-1966" by Greg Littleton, and Bill Enoch.

"car owner Myron Osborn of Denver entered the bright purple car with Foster Campbell listed as the driver.He was rejected for lack of experience so Ozzie quickly named Eddie Jackson as his replacement.Both were Colorado midget drivers and both were turned down for lack of experience."

I cannot comment on Bill Johnson practising at Indy (many owners and chief mechanics did that), but all my sources show Don Padia driving (and non-starting) his car at Pikes Peak in 1950! What's your source, sramoa?

Hi fines!

http://www.inliners....y/pt_three.html
I found it here Bill Johnson-t concerned the champcarstats site(www.champcarstats.com)
This is my source

I find in a Hot Rod magazine 1951:
Bill Johnson entered at 1951 Indy 500 #15.
I think he was her car owner,because the photo desribed:car and owner...

New infos for "US secondary drivers":

Jim Mayes:raced in TSRA(Tri State Racing Assotiation) -I think this serie is a big car (???)-and he had number is:JW10,and more three infos:he had five son,Listed Hometown:Rockport,IN and he raced in 1953 Raresportfilms Indy 500 video-not Eddie Sachs!

I believe it might be spelt Mays. He was based in Tampa, Florida and raced a lot of sprint, midget & dirt cars, but I don't know much more than that.

I remember I saw a newspaper from 1950(St.Petersburg Times????)-there red a big car race:In entry list was on Jim Mayes of Indianapolis,IN-I think he was same man.
Ludson Morris(mMayes' owner) was from Indiana and he had a car in TSRA

New infos for "US secondary drivers":

Dick Page:Ross Page's son and raced some stock car event and build one-two cars.Every time:Listed Hometown:San José,CA

Jim Mayes:raced in TSRA(Tri State Racing Assotiation) -I think this serie is a big car (???)-and he had number is:JW10,and more three infos:he had five son,Listed Hometown:Rockport,IN and he raced in 1953 Raresportfilms Indy 500 video-not Eddie Sachs!

Albert Scully:maybe relation for Lou Scally???Lou Scally(Lou Scaramuzzo) raced this time in Chicago area(UARA midget)

and I have a new member this time:Joe Adas.I don't know more for him,only I have a news in 1950 where list of entry Indy 500 .

Hi guys, I'm back from Bahrain and the most boring first race of the year ever...

I saw you progressed very well on these Indy Misteries...

Well, we have some more misteries to solve...

As Sramoa writes there's Joe Adas that entered Indy 500 1950 on an unknown car (obviously also his personal datas are unknown), but there's more

I saw you already know Foster Campbell and Eddie Jackson (what car Bob Jones's #62 was?) but what about Leon Clum? I have his bios but I don't know what car was supposed to drive before being ousted due to lack of experience.

Then I have C.L. "Puffy" Puffer that entered Indy 500 in 1952 but DNQ. Don't know bios neither the car he wasn't able to qualify...

Edited by Wark611, 16 March 2010 - 10:18.

Then I have a non Indy US driver that is misterious for me. It's Steve Wilder that entered 1959 US F.1 GP at Sebring on a Lotus-Climax that never arrived to the circuit and obliged him to watch the race as a spectator. Do you know something about this man?

Then I have C.L. "Puffy" Puffer that entered Indy 500 in 1952 but DNQ. Don't know bios neither the car he wasn't able to qualify...

Puffy gets a brief mention here:
http://www.inliners....ory/pt_two.html

Then I have a non Indy US driver that is misterious for me. It's Steve Wilder that entered 1959 US F.1 GP at Sebring on a Lotus-Climax that never arrived to the circuit and obliged him to watch the race as a spectator. Do you know something about this man?

All I know about him is that he raced the car in at least one libre race in Britain before taking it to the US

Then I have C.L. "Puffy" Puffer that entered Indy 500 in 1952 but DNQ. Don't know bios neither the car he wasn't able to qualify...

Clayton "Puffy" Puffer was born in Williston, North Dakota on December 22, 1921. He was an early member of CRA - California Roadster Association, and primarily raced hot rods/track roadsters. He died July 12, 1979. About the only other item I can add is Puffer was small of stature. Far from a tall man.

Perfect, Jim!

Neither Joe Ada nor Puffy Puffer were ever entered in the Indy 500.

Then I have a non Indy US driver that is misterious for me. It's Steve Wilder that entered 1959 US F.1 GP at Sebring on a Lotus-Climax that never arrived to the circuit and obliged him to watch the race as a spectator. Do you know something about this man?

Some info for him:

http://www.hemmings...._feature14.html

Then I have a non Indy US driver that is misterious for me. It's Steve Wilder that entered 1959 US F.1 GP at Sebring on a Lotus-Climax that never arrived to the circuit and obliged him to watch the race as a spectator. Do you know something about this man?

Some results here:

http://www.racingspo...-Wilder-GB.html

http://www.racingspo...Wilder-USA.html

Vince H.

Thank you!

Some info for him:

http://www.hemmings...._feature14.html

Anybody knows when he was born?

24 December 1927 - 27 October 2005

Death notice from the New York Times, 06 Nov 2005:

WILDER--Stephen F. 77, of New York City, died peacefully on October 27, after a long struggle with cancer. An urban transit advocate as well as environmental and community activist, he is survived by his wife, Miriam Fond, with whom he shared 35 years of that rarest of phenomena, a truly happy marriage. He attended Noble and Greenough School and was a graduate of Phillips Andover and MIT. Steve served on the Public Citizens Advisory Committee of the MTA for almost two decades and was a member of Manhattan's Community Board 5 for 15 years. Earlier in his career he served as a Technical Editor of ''Car & Driver'' magazine, built the Omega sports car, directed NYC's Vehicle Emissions Lab, and established safety standards for NYC's taxi industry. (Whenever you see a taxi's roof-mounted turn signal, thank Steve Wilder's inventive mind.) Nothing was sacred to Steve, who was able to find humor even in the most challenging situations. He was kind and generous to a fault. Idealistic, iconoclastic: one of a kind. We'll miss you, Steve. He is also survived by his sister Elizabeth W. Cady, a nephew Brian Cady, and nieces, Suzanne Cady Stapleton, Pamela Cady, and Shosha Fond Spivack.

Edited by ReWind, 24 July 2010 - 17:25.

He was from Princeton, Indiana but that's about all I (and others) have found so far.

he is my grandfather, legal name James B. Maines, used Jim Mayes for racing. Born March 5, 1920- died at 50 years old May 10, 1970 in Tarpon Springs FL, have a lot of pictures of him in different cars, would like to know if he ever raced this race. My uncle has an invitation from the Indy 500 in 1950?(not sure) qualifying him to race. http://www.facebook....100000502058153

I believe it might be spelt Mays. He was based in Tampa, Florida and raced a lot of sprint, midget & dirt cars, but I don't know much more than that.

Name spelled, Jim Mayes, legal name James Maines, born Princeton, Indiana 3/5/1920- died in Tarpon Springs FL (near tampa) May 1970. several pictures I have posted on facebook and would like to know more about him myself. He had 9 children all are living and live in Clearwater, Tarpon Springs, Holiday and Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
http://www.facebook....100000502058153