A lot of people are criticizing Massa for not "playing the team game" and allowing Hamilton to pass without much effort.
I think its clearly not true. If you look at the replay, you'll see that Massa played it tough but fair againt Hamilton. He went to the left, tried to squeeze Lewis, but then had to take the right lane to make the turn, and that's wehn LH took advantage of his light car and out-braked Felipe, leaving no room for a come-back move by the Ferrari.
The way both shook hands after the race seemed to me there guys know they had a good and clean battle, as it should be.
Those who think Massa was playing his own game against Kimi are wrong, imo, because it was very difficult for Massa to know how fast the McLaren could go, which could jeopardize his own win.
Hamilton's pass on Massa
Started by
molive
, May 12 2008 15:32
86 replies to this topic
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#2
wingwalker
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:46
Massa definitely dropped the ball there. Just look at the way Glock was trying to save his position from Kova, in the same place of the track, with a much lesser car.
#3
as65p
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:46
I'd have chosen #4 except that it wasn't a pass for the lead in the true sense. Certainly Lewis knew that and the Ferrari crew, and maybe even Felipe.;)
It's a bit like shouting "Wow! Fisichella goes fastest!" when the Force Indias do the first timed laps in a practice session.
All courtesy of sprint-racing and mandatory fuel stops (to get that off my chest once again).
It's a bit like shouting "Wow! Fisichella goes fastest!" when the Force Indias do the first timed laps in a practice session.
All courtesy of sprint-racing and mandatory fuel stops (to get that off my chest once again).
#4
Gareth
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:46
I think Massa defended as well as he could against a good move by Hamilton. Good to see overtaking at the sharp end!
I don't agree with suggestions that Massa played it easy, trying to take no risk as he new fuel loads would see him back at the front. Nor do I agree with suggestions that Massa was trying to play a cute game by putting Hamilton between him and Kimi. Certainly Massa's race engineer's comments post race appear to discredit those two theories - see discussion here:
I don't agree with suggestions that Massa played it easy, trying to take no risk as he new fuel loads would see him back at the front. Nor do I agree with suggestions that Massa was trying to play a cute game by putting Hamilton between him and Kimi. Certainly Massa's race engineer's comments post race appear to discredit those two theories - see discussion here:
Originally posted by Gareth
Massa's race engineer's comments to ITV post race don't really fit with the scenario above. He seemed to be saying (with references to "calming Mass down") that Massa was annoyed at being overtaken and needed to be reminded that, with the differing stratergies, the race would still come back to him. It certainly didn't sound like Massa was a guy who was cool with yielding the corner.
Originally posted by Buttoneer
He [also] specifically said that if he had been Hamiltons race engineer he would have been pretty pleased. I'd hazard a guess that means Massa wasn't.
#5
pingu666
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:54
good clean fight 
if you wanna talk about pretty much letting someone by then theres the alonso/kimi pass...
if you wanna talk about pretty much letting someone by then theres the alonso/kimi pass...
#6
F1Fanatic.co.uk
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 15:57
I think Massa believed he hadn't left Hamilton enough room to get down the inside and expected Hamilton would go to the outside. Had Hamilton not passed Massa he wouldn't have finished ahead of Raikkonen.
Of course, it was probably more useful for Massa's championship hopes to have Hamilton between him and Raikkonen. I don't think playing the team game is an issue because with the car advantage they have Ferrari should win the constructors' championship.
Me, I was just glad to see a pass for the lead, even if fuel strategy had a role to play.
Of course, it was probably more useful for Massa's championship hopes to have Hamilton between him and Raikkonen. I don't think playing the team game is an issue because with the car advantage they have Ferrari should win the constructors' championship.
Me, I was just glad to see a pass for the lead, even if fuel strategy had a role to play.
#7
howardt
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:03
The approach of this new generation seems to be towards clean racing rather than car contact. Don't focus on the battle, focus on the war.
The duel last year between (Kubica & Massa ?) was absolutely fantastic, and we've not seen the like since Dijon'79.
I think there was a long period influenced by the 'hard racing' school populated by Senna, Schumacher, Montoya who would rather collide than yield a position. The legacy of this can be seen in the driving style of DC and Fisi, as that was the F1 environment in which they cut their teeth - it means they have more collisions than most, and it shows that they don't fit in with the current generation of clean drivers.
I applaud Massa for realising that it would harm both LH and himself to try to defend, and letting the position go so that he could get on with the race.
The duel last year between (Kubica & Massa ?) was absolutely fantastic, and we've not seen the like since Dijon'79.
I think there was a long period influenced by the 'hard racing' school populated by Senna, Schumacher, Montoya who would rather collide than yield a position. The legacy of this can be seen in the driving style of DC and Fisi, as that was the F1 environment in which they cut their teeth - it means they have more collisions than most, and it shows that they don't fit in with the current generation of clean drivers.
I applaud Massa for realising that it would harm both LH and himself to try to defend, and letting the position go so that he could get on with the race.
#8
Clatter
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:05
I thought it was just good clean racing. LH had to take his chances, and he did. Made a huge change to actually see some action at the front.
As far as those complaining, I'll bet they would be the first ones to complain if it were their driver that was held up.
As far as those complaining, I'll bet they would be the first ones to complain if it were their driver that was held up.
#9
noikeee
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:10
I don't think it's a conspiracy. There's some quote around that his engineer informed him that LH was in another strategy and as such he shouldn't try to defend that hard, but I doubt Massa thought "yeah, I'm going to let him pass me, so he can rob points from Kimi". That's the sort of thing you can only see in hindsight, or looking at a live timing board with a calculator, not in a F1 cockpit in the heat of the moment. You can't assume anything like that while racing, you just have to trust what they tell you on the radio.
#10
undersquare
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:16
Felipe did not really leave a car's width but Lewis forced the issue, having got a great run out of turn 10. If Felipe had moved left again with Lewis partly off the edge of the track and so close they'd have touched, who knows how the front wing/rear tyre contact would have worked out but Felipe did the smart thing and kept his race intact. Hope DC was watching... 
.
I'm disappointed for Felipe that some in Ferrari seem to think he didn't do enough. They're being wise after the event I'd say - if he'd damaged his car and handed Lewis the win they'd be singing a different tune.
.I'm disappointed for Felipe that some in Ferrari seem to think he didn't do enough. They're being wise after the event I'd say - if he'd damaged his car and handed Lewis the win they'd be singing a different tune.
#11
kar
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:18
I think Massa tried to hold on, but not _too_ hard. He almost certainly could have made it much more difficult.
Either way, Hamilton's execution was pretty good. Have to, sadly admit, he had the faster car at that point in the race, and he made best use of it there. He wasn't in the perfect braking area and he still outbraked Massa, all without overcooking it.
It was a good move, combined with a 3/4 defensive effort, and that was that.
Made the race a lot more interesting that it might have otherwise been anyway.
Either way, Hamilton's execution was pretty good. Have to, sadly admit, he had the faster car at that point in the race, and he made best use of it there. He wasn't in the perfect braking area and he still outbraked Massa, all without overcooking it.
It was a good move, combined with a 3/4 defensive effort, and that was that.
Made the race a lot more interesting that it might have otherwise been anyway.
#12
pingu666
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:19
montoya was really hard, stubborn and brilliant with the ontrack action
some of you guys would **** bricks if you ever watched a superbike race
some of you guys would **** bricks if you ever watched a superbike race
#13
DoubleWDC
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:22
Massa did it on purpose. Now he's two points closer to KR than he would otherwise have been.
#14
Mauseri
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:27
I hope Hamilton beats Massa in the final standings with these 2 points 
#15
SeanValen
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:28
Actually I think Lewis was just better on the breaking there, he held it very well, and he did it on Kimi at Monza last year, he's passed more ferrrari's on track I think in a duel then most.
One of the best breakers out there with Schumi gone. Racing is one thing he's a ace at. While I can nitpick on other things, Hamilton is a solid racer.
One of the best breakers out there with Schumi gone. Racing is one thing he's a ace at. While I can nitpick on other things, Hamilton is a solid racer.
#16
Mauseri
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:38
But good for Hamilton for managing to do it. It seems McLaren wasevery bit as fast as Ferrari last weekend. Even faster. And in the moment when Leiws passed Massa, he got 0.8 sec speed advantage from fuel load alone. Plus that McLaren was better out of the slow corners again. I except Lewis to win in Monaco, with Kimi second.
#17
Risil
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:42
I think Massa did defend his position. But there comes a point where defending any harder would risk a collision, as Massa found out in Australia. He's not going to risk another 10 points just to possibly save his teammate 2.
#18
rodlamas
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:46
Originally posted by micra_k10
I hope Hamilton beats Massa in the final standings with these 2 points
Imagine that at the end of the year Hamilton is crowned WDC 1 point ahead of Kimi, with Massa a further point behind.
Gosh, this BB will collapse.
#19
Frank Booth
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:51
The way Lewis smashed into Alonso in Bahrain I would have let him pass as well. Same way I let a suspected drunk driver ahead of me so I can keep an eye on them
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#20
Ivanoff
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:54
If Kimi was in Massa's position he would have held Lewis longer, for sure.
If Schumi was in Massa's position he would have held Lewis to the finish, for sure.
#21
Risil
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 16:59
Originally posted by Ivanoff
If Schumi was in Massa's position he would have held Lewis to the finish, for sure.
Heh. Just look at the 1995 Belgian GP.
#22
macoran
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:00
Originally posted by wingwalker
Massa definitely dropped the ball there. Just look at the way Glock was trying to save his position from Kova, in the same place of the track, with a much lesser car.
C'mon Louie was so effing light it shouldn't be considered a real pass !
Those guys can't make passes like that without some sort of advantage ! wake bloody up !!!
#23
rolf123
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:23
It was an excellent overtake for the lead. Albeit not a pure one, due to strategy (yet another reason to ban stupid refuelling in F1).
As for being more conservative than the days of Senna et al, I think this is rubbish to say. In fact, this overtake was very reminiscent of the era - hard racing, defending as much as possible, late braking etc. Most of Senna's moves did not involve contact, we just remember the incredible ones like those at Suzuka.
Plus it was not 100% clear of Hamilton's strategy during their dice. It was possible that it could still be tires or some other reason. I felt the same way as Felipe - don't let Hamilton through...and not for reasons of delaying him as much as possible in terms of fuel strategy.
As for people suggesting that Massa did this on purpose to punish Kimi - what a load of dross! People who say such things clearly have not been watching F1 for more than 10 years!
As for being more conservative than the days of Senna et al, I think this is rubbish to say. In fact, this overtake was very reminiscent of the era - hard racing, defending as much as possible, late braking etc. Most of Senna's moves did not involve contact, we just remember the incredible ones like those at Suzuka.
Plus it was not 100% clear of Hamilton's strategy during their dice. It was possible that it could still be tires or some other reason. I felt the same way as Felipe - don't let Hamilton through...and not for reasons of delaying him as much as possible in terms of fuel strategy.
As for people suggesting that Massa did this on purpose to punish Kimi - what a load of dross! People who say such things clearly have not been watching F1 for more than 10 years!
#24
Ivanoff
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:35
Originally posted by Risil
Heh. Just look at the 1995 Belgian GP.
No need to go so far. Remember Imola 2006 ;)
#25
CWeil
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:36
Originally posted by wingwalker
Massa definitely dropped the ball there. Just look at the way Glock was trying to save his position from Kova, in the same place of the track, with a much lesser car.
Quoted for emphasis.
#26
Anomnader
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:42
Massa might have being able to enter the corner defending his position better, but once Lewis had got there is was all over, it was either let Lewis through or crash, Lewis was carrying a lot of speed at that time.
Lewis has always being an exceptional overtaker as evidenced in his GP2 days.
Lewis has always being an exceptional overtaker as evidenced in his GP2 days.
#27
marcg
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 17:49
It was a good pass by Hamilton. Obviously Massa thought he'd already covered the inside line and thus had forced Lewis to take the outside line, but instead Hamilton still went for the inside, which was pretty brave. Nevertheless, having seen Lewis's passing abilities, I guess he would've still nailed him around the outside, even if Felipe had covered the inside completely.
But anyway, I'm really happy to see some action at the sharp end!
But anyway, I'm really happy to see some action at the sharp end!
#28
wrighty
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:00
Originally posted by marcg
It was a good pass by Hamilton. Obviously Massa thought he'd already covered the inside line and thus had forced Lewis to take the outside line, but instead Hamilton still went for the inside, which was pretty brave. Nevertheless, having seen Lewis's passing abilities, I guess he would've still nailed him around the outside, even if Felipe had covered the inside completely.
But anyway, I'm really happy to see some action at the sharp end!
couldn't agree more and, while I take on board macoran's comment about the advantage required to nail a pass at the front, I thought it was a pretty brave job....when he jinked left (ITV showed the replay onboard iirc) i thought i was gonna see lots of sky again
he cut it a bit fine 
.While we talk about it wasn't a 'true' pass because of the strategy, for me the fact that it was within a strategy didn't change the essence of the action.....we all knew the score, Massa did too, but wasn't it nice to see someone reeling in a gap at the front and attacking the pass to try and get away, rather than the same old pitstop shuffle and lets see who can nail one or two 'good laps' to try and 'maximise' two laps of ****ing fuel.......watching the footage we got here, they showed Hamilton just throwing it into turn 1 several laps on the trot and it was cracking viewing
reminded me of his line through the new Barca chicane last season where he was tipping the car on its nose to change direction and flicking it through.......almost 'old skool' and yes, he ruined the tyres but guess what.....I dont care!!!! it was a joy to watch.....I aint the tyre guy, i'm the viewer i'll get me coat now
#29
Kimiraikkonen
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:20
Fantastic HAM this boy is really good!!!!!!
Go HAM GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Go HAM GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
#30
Atreiu
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:27
Hamilton was faster and more aggressive, Massa made the pass become as hard as possible wthout doing anything foolish and stupid. That's it.
Or perhaps people wanted some stubborn resistence like Schumacher at Hungaroring '06.
Or perhaps people wanted some stubborn resistence like Schumacher at Hungaroring '06.
#31
Motormedia
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:32
I don't think Massa let Hamilton through. He just made a mistake in defending his position but having said that, if Massa knew Hamilton was on a three stopper, then there was a limit to how hard he was going to defend his position anyways. Massa's role is not to play second fiddle to Raikkonen - yet. Raikkonens problem was not Massa. He was driving to slowly (partly due to his incident with Kovalainen which in turn could have been avoided had he qualified better). Of course, Massa could have defended his position harder but he would have risked a certain win and that would have compromised his chances in the championship severly.
Motormedia
Motormedia
#32
Anomnader
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:37
Shouldn't the question also be asked about Kimi's pass on Alonso and how easy it was, atleast Massa put up some type of defence, but Alonso practically waved Kimi through, whilst I don't believe it made any difference in the end, but such antics could have decided whether Kimi came 2nd or 5th or so in other races, the commentators thought it was due to Kimi being faster and he would get past eventually that Alonso probably let him go, but surly this is racing and people are here to see a race, would Alonso have being so helpful if he had being in spain? Could it also be due to Alonso he circumstances last year when he didn't get on with McLaren and so prefering to help ferrari.
#33
pingu666
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:38
massa did have 10kph~ topspeed advantage/potential too... sure he was no glock, but still did a pretty decent job of defending, and he was fair
#34
Rabbit123
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:38
Massa could have done more to block Hamilton on the way into the corner, but once LH was there, on the inside, Massa had to let him through to avoid a collision.
#35
Tenmantaylor
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:42
Silly poll options once again.
Massa did the sensible thing knowing he was on a longer more competetive strategy. Had he stayed left down to the end of the straight he would have dirtied his tyres and risked going off like he's done a few times when under pressure. It was also a great outbraking manouvre from lewis.
Massa did the sensible thing knowing he was on a longer more competetive strategy. Had he stayed left down to the end of the straight he would have dirtied his tyres and risked going off like he's done a few times when under pressure. It was also a great outbraking manouvre from lewis.
#36
dawg_7529
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:49
massa simply sucks. He should be sacked. If kimi has 2 or 3 m ore bad weekends i want him also gone from my beloved ferrari team. I want di montezemolo hire alonso and kubica. They both have brains, know how to engage them, and can drive around setup issues.
#37
pRy
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 18:50
Massa couldn't win really. Let him pass and be accused of being too easy.. block him and tangle and be accused of throwing away a certain victory. Massa did the right thing.
#38
Arion
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 19:18
I think Massa defended as best as he could manage, he was never very good at defence. Alonso used to pass Massa easy when Scuhmacher was fighting for WDC, nothing unusual there.
#39
Hippo
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 19:24
Gosh that was an awesome move by Hamilton. Of all cars in the grid i did not expect a Ferrari to be overtaken there. Sure Massa could have blocked more which would have helped Räikkönen. But i think he was kinda stunned by the move Hamilton pulled there. In my opinion it's absolutly fantastic to see maneuvers like that for P1. Before this race i would have sworn this is impossible. Great stuff!
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#40
molive
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 19:27
Originally posted by dawg_7529
massa simply sucks. He should be sacked. If kimi has 2 or 3 m ore bad weekends i want him also gone from my beloved ferrari team. I want di montezemolo hire alonso and kubica. They both have brains, know how to engage them, and can drive around setup issues.
Welcome to my ignore list!
Just kidding! But, hey, learn to engage yours too...;)
#41
AlexS
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 19:42
I think Massa didnt expected that, so he didnt defended very well.
#42
giacomo
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 20:00
Hadn't Raikkonen messed his start, Massas defending against Hamilton wouldn't have had any effect for him at all.
#43
Risil
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 20:37
Do you think it's possible that if Massa had wasted a bunch of time blocking and holding up Hamilton for a number of laps, Raikkonen could've closed up on the both of them and won the race? I smell ulterior motives from Kimi-fans here. 
#44
giacomo
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 20:59
Also a collison FM - LH would have been very welcome among the Kimi-fans.Originally posted by Risil
Do you think it's possible that if Massa had wasted a bunch of time blocking and holding up Hamilton for a number of laps, Raikkonen could've closed up on the both of them and won the race? I smell ulterior motives from Kimi-fans here.
It would have handed the Turkey win to KR, and it would have given plenty of material for bashing against FM and LH.
#45
kar
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 21:00
Originally posted by giacomo
Hadn't Raikkonen messed his start, Massas defending against Hamilton wouldn't have had any effect for him at all.
I really don't think Raikkonen messed his start. There was nothing he could really do given the situation he was in. He pulled right up behind Kovaleinen and would of passed him had Kovaleinen not pushing him off the circuit.
#46
Ricardo F1
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 21:30
It was a great move by Hamilton.
#47
DoubleWDC
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 21:49
Originally posted by giacomo
Hadn't Raikkonen messed his start, Massas defending against Hamilton wouldn't have had any effect for him at all.
Wow you haters are truely funny. KR made a good start from dirty side and almost made it past Kovalainen but had to back off to not be taken out by the crazy McLaren driver.
#48
molive
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 22:02
Originally posted by Ricardo F1
It was a great move by Hamilton.
I think it was a "very good" move.
Great? I dunno, if only the cars were on the same fuel level...
#49
giacomo
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 22:11
KR himself rated his start as not being very good.Originally posted by DoubleWDC
Wow you haters are truely funny. KR made a good start from dirty side and almost made it past Kovalainen but had to back off to not be taken out by the crazy McLaren driver.
According to your logic this makes him a hater of himself.
#50
as65p
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 22:20
Originally posted by DoubleWDC
Wow you haters are truely funny. KR made a good start from dirty side and almost made it past Kovalainen but had to back off to not be taken out by the crazy McLaren driver.
There was nothing crazy going on. In fact it was completely ordinary, KR trying to take advantage and HK defending his position. They came a bit too close, so what? There's a simple measure to avoid that: qualify on pole.
One of the things I truly appreciate about Kimi is that he would never make a big fuss about such things. Some of his supporters should take note...;)
