Alonso has a reputation of being very difficult to overtake, ask Hamilton, however it didn't take long for Kimi to get past him this time.
Any thoughts?
Kimi's pass on Alonso
Started by
Jamelon
, May 13 2008 14:38
48 replies to this topic
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#2
Owen
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:46
Who knows?
But in my opinion Alonso let him through as he thought there was no point in fighting him
- there may have been an accident
- battling him would have resulted in more time being lost and is a hopeless fight anyway due to Kimi's car advantage
But in my opinion Alonso let him through as he thought there was no point in fighting him
- there may have been an accident
- battling him would have resulted in more time being lost and is a hopeless fight anyway due to Kimi's car advantage
#3
as65p
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:46
What else can it be than #6? Surely the pass of the century. 
#4
Evenstar
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:47
Hahahahaha @ the third option in the poll!
But it has to be the fourth - Kimi overtook him without any help, his car was faster. However, Alonso clearly braked much earlier, and that would contradict any defense on his part. He knew there was no point.
But it has to be the fourth - Kimi overtook him without any help, his car was faster. However, Alonso clearly braked much earlier, and that would contradict any defense on his part. He knew there was no point.
#5
Gareth
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:49
No point in driving a defensive line to keep someone who will undoubtably pass (whether on track or in the pits) behnind - in the process you lose time to your real competitors whilst gaining nothing.
Reminded me of KR's less than aggressive defence against MS at Austria one year (Kimi was in the Sauber) - of course that one was put down to the fact Sauber had a Ferrari engine by the conspiracy theorists, rather than accepting the more obvious explanation above. No doubt this move will generate its fair share of conspiracy theories ...
Reminded me of KR's less than aggressive defence against MS at Austria one year (Kimi was in the Sauber) - of course that one was put down to the fact Sauber had a Ferrari engine by the conspiracy theorists, rather than accepting the more obvious explanation above. No doubt this move will generate its fair share of conspiracy theories ...
#6
Jamelon
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:51
Originally posted by Evenstar
Kimi overtook him without any help, his car was faster. However, Alonso clearly braked much earlier, and that would contradict any defense on his part. He knew there was no point.
Braking earlier than usual sounds to me as letting him through. After the pass Kimi was not pulling away at all.
#7
noikeee
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:53
I voted the fourth option as it's the one that makes most sense, but it could've also been a slight Alonso mistake on the exit of the chicane at the end of the straight coming from T8, I'd like an onboard video from Kimi's point of view to get a better idea.
The rest of the options are nonsense fanboy crap.
The rest of the options are nonsense fanboy crap.
#8
kar
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:53
I couldn't help myself, I voted no. 3 :-)
#9
pingu666
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 14:55
when did alonso and kimi pit ?
#10
Mika Mika
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:01
Originally posted by pingu666
when did alonso and kimi pit ?
I think alonso was lap 14 and kimi was lap 21
#11
lukywill
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:05
15, 20.Originally posted by Mika Mika
I think alonso was lap 14 and kimi was lap 21
#12
Mika Mika
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:07
Originally posted by lukywill
15, 20.
Nice one, i knew it was around there...
#13
UreaBorealis
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:07
Third attempt (backed by Forix) :
15, 21
15, 21
#14
as65p
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:11
Wow, two people have already voted #6, for real.
Would you please stand up!
Would you please stand up!
#15
DoubleWDC
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:31
Originally posted by as65p
Wow, two people have already voted #6, for real.
Would you please stand up!
I bet some people are tired of the endless bashing KR gets on these forums and have voted #6 just because they're irritated. Please don't take this as an admission of guilt however.
#16
DoubleWDC
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:33
Originally posted by Gareth
Reminded me of KR's less than aggressive defence against MS at Austria one year (Kimi was in the Sauber) - of course that one was put down to the fact Sauber had a Ferrari engine by the conspiracy theorists, rather than accepting the more obvious explanation above.
What conspiracy? Do you consider Jerez and Fontana a conspiracy theory? Sauber and Ferrari had a very special relationship still back in 2001 (and nothing wrong with that).
#17
prxty
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:34
Many people like to cheat in the polls. It makes them more interesting for people who don't care about it.Originally posted by as65p
Wow, two people have already voted #6, for real.
Would you please stand up!
#18
DoubleWDC
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:39
What's surprising about KR's overtaking manoeuvre? Ferrari is a better car than Renault and KR is not any worse driver than FA. In addition one of KR's strengths at least used to be driving on cold tyres which would have been the case immediately after the SC. In F1 of today most passing is done on first lap anyways.
#19
pingu666
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:41
Originally posted by UreaBorealis
Third attempt (backed by Forix) :
15, 21
kimi woulda jumped him anyways, but then again, this isnt track mania
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#20
postajegenye
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 15:50
I guess Alonso knew Kimi was much faster and didn't want to risk a contact (remember Hamilton in Bahrain)
#21
StefanV
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 16:00
I guess it proves in what sad state F1 is in when each pass in the points area results in a poll at Atlas...Originally posted by Evenstar
However, Alonso clearly braked much earlier
But regarding "braked much earlier", have you seen the replay?
Yes, Alonso let Kimi go because it was clear that he would beat him to the corner anyway, but he did not give up the fight. Alonso simply got behind Kimi to get a good line if Kimi braked a tad too late so that he could take the position back. In fact, the in car replay shows that Alonso himself brakes a tad bit too late, locks up the front wheels a drifts out from the apex, exactly what he had hoped that Kimi would do.
So my take of it is that Alonso really did his best to keep Kimi behind, but the Ferrari simply had so much speed through T9 that it was an impossible task. Much as it was fro Massa when Hamilton got T9 prefect.
T9 is actually a tricky corner, it does not look much for the world and everybody speaks about T8 , but T9 is the corner where you lose time. Or positions.
#22
Orrelto
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 19:38
I'm surprised #5 has got only one vote (from me). It seems likely that Alonso made some kind of a mistake earlier because
- Kimi passed so early on the straight
- After the pass he didn't pull away
But who cares, really.
- Kimi passed so early on the straight
- After the pass he didn't pull away
But who cares, really.
#23
Atreiu
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 19:44
It certainly seemed as the easiest pass of the race. But Hamilton was also incredibly quicker than Alonso at the start of the Bahrain GP, so maybe a Renault with 10 laps of fuel or more is a total dog.
Anyhow, I doubt Alonso was even the least bothered that he was unable to hold Kimi and indirectly aid McLaren.
Anyhow, I doubt Alonso was even the least bothered that he was unable to hold Kimi and indirectly aid McLaren.
#24
molive
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 19:47
Alonso obviously let Kimi pass as if he was a backmarker.
Why? Only Alonso knows.
Why? Only Alonso knows.
#25
ex Rhodie racer
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 20:14
The Ferrari obviously exits better than the Renault and as such carries more speed onto the straights, particularly if they are uphill. The corner up the hill (Is that turn 9 ?) is flat out so one would say the straight starts on the exit of the previous corner. By the time Kimi reached Alonso he was easily able to go past before the braking point, as besides the previous points, he also had the benefit of Alonso´s slipstream up the hill. All these factors made for an easy pass, especially as Fred didnt try to block him in any way, and correctly so.
#26
Fatgadget
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 20:21
Poor Fred. From being a front runner in a top team to an also ran in one fell swoop. What went wrong?
#27
StefanV
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 20:23
No, T9 is the pinchy left that, if you brake a tad too late, throws completely off line and heavy on the curbs in T10. A mistake in T9 will kill your T10 and that will hurt you all the way up to the full throttle T11. Alonso probably went in a bit too hard into T9.Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
The Ferrari obviously exits better than the Renault and as such carries more speed onto the straights, particularly if they are uphill. The corner up the hill (Is that turn 9 ?) is flat out so one would say the straight starts on the exit of the previous corner. By the time Kimi reached Alonso he was easily able to go past before the braking point, as besides the previous points, he also had the benefit of Alonso´s slipstream up the hill. All these factors made for an easy pass, especially as Fred didnt try to block him in any way, and correctly so.
http://www.formula1....it_diagram.html
#28
as65p
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 20:29
Originally posted by molive
Alonso obviously let Kimi pass as if he was a backmarker.
Why? Only Alonso knows.
I takes only very basic knowledge of the human psyche to have an educated guess at the reason. I mean very, very basic.
I remember t-shirts from the early nineties which read "anyone... but Senna" at the back. I bet if they re-issued those, replacing "Senna" with "Hamilton", Fernando would buy a few dozen.
;)
#29
ex Rhodie racer
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:00
Originally posted by StefanV
No, T9 is the pinchy left that, if you brake a tad too late, throws completely off line and heavy on the curbs in T10. A mistake in T9 will kill your T10 and that will hurt you all the way up to the full throttle T11. Alonso probably went in a bit too hard into T9.
http://www.formula1....it_diagram.html
Thanks Stefan.
#30
Evenstar
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:01
Yes I noticed that live while I was watching it. Alonso gave way so he could have a better line coming out but he didn't do so very well, yes. But the point was, he gave Kimi way because it was safer that way.Originally posted by StefanV
In fact, the in car replay shows that Alonso himself brakes a tad bit too late, locks up the front wheels a drifts out from the apex, exactly what he had hoped that Kimi would do.
Also, I don't see the need of a thread of these kind of overtakings which are pretty straightforward, text book stuff you might say. Why aren't there threads on a greater battle likes Heikki VS Glock.
Meh...obviously this thread is to feed meaningless speculation
#31
Suntrek
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:10
Originally posted by as65p
I takes only very basic knowledge of the human psyche to have an educated guess at the reason. I mean very, very basic.
I remember t-shirts from the early nineties which read "anyone... but Senna" at the back. I bet if they re-issued those, replacing "Senna" with "Hamilton", Fernando would buy a few dozen.
;)
Are they for sale anywhere?
#32
rolf123
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:15
What annoys me is that this never used to happen in any form of racing until last few years in F1 (letting someone by). It goes against the spirit of racing.
Very similar to accepting 2nd place and not going all out for the win. Totally against pure racing.
Very similar to accepting 2nd place and not going all out for the win. Totally against pure racing.
#33
Beyond
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:24
These are the threads we all wait for
#34
DiStefano
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:25
Originally posted by rolf123
What annoys me is that this never used to happen in any form of racing until last few years in F1 (letting someone by). It goes against the spirit of racing.
Very similar to accepting 2nd place and not going all out for the win. Totally against pure racing.
Yeah Fernando should have tried to hold Kimi and risk being overtaken by Mark in the pits
#35
as65p
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:32
Originally posted by Suntrek
Are they for sale anywhere?
Doesn't take much cash these days to print your own custom shirts... and hereby I grant you full rights to use that brilliant marketing idea as you see fit.
;)
#36
Mauseri
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:39
Kimi went for overtake (skill/fast car) and Alonso didnt block because his race was against Webber etc... He made the sensible thing to not lose any precious seconds.
Alonso wont throw away a single point for McLaren/Hamilton consiparices.
Alonso wont throw away a single point for McLaren/Hamilton consiparices.
#37
Hellenic tifosi
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:52
I think that it is a combination of Kimi's car being much quicker and Alonso being sensible. Alonso would be willing to keep Kimi behind only as long as he knew that it would be no harm to his own pace. As soon as the Ferrari got the tow, Fernando just showed a touch of the skill that won him two championships: the ability to grasp the bigger picture.
Yes, it may not be the best thing for the fans, but if I was racing I would have done the exact same thing. Bernoldi had gained his 30 minutes under the spotlight, but at the same time he completely destroyed his own Monaco race.
Yes, it may not be the best thing for the fans, but if I was racing I would have done the exact same thing. Bernoldi had gained his 30 minutes under the spotlight, but at the same time he completely destroyed his own Monaco race.
#38
Fatgadget
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 22:04
Good call by Massa IMO.
Why risk a potential accident that would more than likely resulted in him having nill points?
Why risk a potential accident that would more than likely resulted in him having nill points?
#39
F575 GTC
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 22:08
Originally posted by micra_k10
Kimi went for overtake (skill/fast car) and Alonso didnt block because his race was against Webber etc... He made the sensible thing to not lose any precious seconds.
Yep. As far as i can see with it, why waste the time fighting against Kimi; eventually he would have got past him - if not at that corner, down on the run to the first turn in the next couple of laps at the very latest.
#41
Fatgadget
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 22:21
Originally posted by StefanV
But he did fight.
So? It's points that count at the end of the season.
#42
pingu666
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 01:45
dang that brave alonso fights hard, as hard as i fight
and he misses the F1 car sized hole kimi left, and webber is right on his tail after...
#43
HoldenRT
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 04:04
It was obvious, Alonso was racing against Webber not the Ferraris. Any type of fighting or battling, risked both the car or the chance for him to run wide and let Webber through. Letting Kimi through was the safe sensible approach.
Of course, if Alonso was driving a BMW and not a Renault (or if the Renault was closer to BMW's pace) he probably would not have let him go. And it would of been alot harder for Kimi for try and pressure him. But as it was, trying to fight to keep him behind would of done nothing but delay the inevitable.
Of course, if Alonso was driving a BMW and not a Renault (or if the Renault was closer to BMW's pace) he probably would not have let him go. And it would of been alot harder for Kimi for try and pressure him. But as it was, trying to fight to keep him behind would of done nothing but delay the inevitable.
#44
Digitaldrug
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 05:39
In two pages no ones mentioned the ferrari had 10kph top speed than the Renault? Alonso couldnt defend against that speed advantage.
#45
Buttoneer
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:40
I don't think there's anything suspicious about Alonso letting Kimi through, but do think he let him through too easily. Stefan - Alonso's little puff of tyre smoke could easily just be over-doing it into the corner while being too close to the car in front so he had no downforce. Not really evidence of a 'fight' IMO.
Either way, the gap to Webber is much less at the end of the pit straight than it was at the start, even taking into account the concertina effect. The gap before (Alonso-Raikkonen-Webber) was about 1.3s and after (Alonso-Webber) it was 0.7s but then increases by 0.1 to 0.2 per lap.
Either way, the gap to Webber is much less at the end of the pit straight than it was at the start, even taking into account the concertina effect. The gap before (Alonso-Raikkonen-Webber) was about 1.3s and after (Alonso-Webber) it was 0.7s but then increases by 0.1 to 0.2 per lap.
#46
StefanV
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:52
No, the lock up is not evidence of a fight, but it counters the popular argument that Alonso braked early to let Kimi through. He lifted to get behind Kimi but he braked very late. That is, if you have followed Alonso, a common technique that he uses. The guy passing often brakes a bit too late and opens up on the inside. There is no EVIDENCE of a fight, but there is enough indications that he did try to keep, or regain, his position to keep the conspiracy theories a bit further away.Originally posted by Buttoneer
I don't think there's anything suspicious about Alonso letting Kimi through, but do think he let him through too easily. Stefan - Alonso's little puff of tyre smoke could easily just be over-doing it into the corner while being too close to the car in front so he had no downforce. Not really evidence of a 'fight' IMO.
Had Alonso stayed on the inside, trying to outbrake Kimi, he would probably have failed. Had he failed he would have had, at best, a terrible line through last complex and fallen into the clutches of Webber. Smart and calculated driving I would say. Best he could do after making a small mistake in T9/T10.
#47
Anomnader
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:47
Originally posted by HoldenRT
It was obvious, Alonso was racing against Webber not the Ferraris. Any type of fighting or battling, risked both the car or the chance for him to run wide and let Webber through. Letting Kimi through was the safe sensible approach.
Of course, if Alonso was driving a BMW and not a Renault (or if the Renault was closer to BMW's pace) he probably would not have let him go. And it would of been alot harder for Kimi for try and pressure him. But as it was, trying to fight to keep him behind would of done nothing but delay the inevitable.
lets reverse the situation thou, say it was a McLaren behind a Williams who made such a move as alonso did, sorry but the Ferrari fans would be up in arms. OK, lets go back a few weeks, Alonso was infront of Lewis, I didn't see Alonso move out of the way as he wasn't really battaling the McLaren, I didn't see anyone saying Alonso should make way, why was it right for Alonso to fight then, but not now, we should expect racing, other teams should not be making way, they didn't for Lewis, they dam well shouldn't have done for Kimi
sorry, I hear excuses.
#48
Anomnader
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 22:42
eh? No one answering what the difference between this race and the one previously, how it is good tactics to let Kimi go, but a few races before it wasn't for Lewis?
#49
as65p
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 23:35
Originally posted by Anomnader
eh? No one answering what the difference between this race and the one previously, how it is good tactics to let Kimi go, but a few races before it wasn't for Lewis?
Have a deep think about it, I'm sure the solution will come to you finally.;)
Hint: they are all humans just like the rest of us, not robots.
