Please do not post about this subject here as there are other threads on this subject on going. I was just wondering what the percentages would be on Hamilton's drive thru in France.
Hamilton penalty in France. Correct call?
Started by
SlateGray
, Jun 23 2008 19:37
161 replies to this topic
#3
stevvy1986
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 16:06
impossible to say due to the fact we only got 1 view,and that was the onboard view
#4
jesee
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 17:31
Originally posted by SlateGray
Please do not post about this subject here as there are other threads on this subject on going. I was just wondering what the percentages would be on Hamilton's drive thru in France.
Iam sure you will get the percentages you want to massage your lewis hate egos. Another useless thread
#5
SlateGray
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 17:41
Originally posted by jesee
Iam sure you will get the percentages you want to massage your lewis hate egos. Another useless thread
Is there some bias evident in the poll questions?
Perhaps we should have a poll to see if the bb found this poll useful or useless
Please use the other threads that are currently ongoing to discuss the many and varied failings of Lewis Hamilton
#6
Craven Morehead
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 17:59
What amazes me is how Ricardo got to vote 35 times
#7
mmmcurry
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 18:09
Well, Hamilton said that if he'd have taken the corer properly, then they'd have collided, so he would not have made the corner. If that'd have been Monaco this would have been a poll about whether the manouver was ever gonna stick.
If Hamilton had of just let him back again, then that would have been enough in my opinion.
Steve.
If Hamilton had of just let him back again, then that would have been enough in my opinion.
Steve.
#8
Buttoneer
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 18:47
No, the questioner. Only a little bit, mind.Originally posted by SlateGray
Is there some bias evident in the poll questions?
#9
tifosi
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 18:51
Originally posted by jesee
Iam sure you will get the percentages you want to massage your lewis hate egos. Another useless thread
Well, I'm a Lewis-hater and I voted no
#10
imaginesix
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 18:52
Thanks for the poll, I was wondering about what most people thought too. I voted that it was the correct call.
#11
bankoq
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 18:58
Originally posted by Craven Morehead
What amazes me is how Ricardo got to vote 35 times
Already 40, he must be very busy registering new accounts all the time...
#12
Craven Morehead
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 19:16
yeah must be a slow work day 
#13
Risil
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 19:26
Maybe if there were fewer chicanes we wouldn't have this silly debate.
I mean, how stupid is that? This isn't Super Mario Kart, so why should there be such readily-usable shortcuts left around the track?
I mean, how stupid is that? This isn't Super Mario Kart, so why should there be such readily-usable shortcuts left around the track?
#14
panzani
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 19:28
Wouldn't a poll "what's your fav driver?" lead to almost the same results?
Options would be then:
1. Anyone but Hamilton;
2. Hamilton;
3. Not sure.
Options would be then:
1. Anyone but Hamilton;
2. Hamilton;
3. Not sure.
#15
Crazy Ninja
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 20:02
No - Mclaren should have told Lewis to let Vettel back just to be sure or the race stewards should have told them it would be best to let Vettel back through. I dont know why it took them 12 laps to come to a decision. Another example i can think of is Alonso at Suzuka 05. He passed Klien (iirc) somewhat dubiously so just to play it safe he let Klien back through on the main straight (and then again ). Mclaren are an experienced enough team so i was surprised to see them not tell Lewis to let him by, especially in the current climate when it seems Mclaren are the only team eligible for penalties.
). Mclaren are an experienced enough team so i was surprised to see them not tell Lewis to let him by, especially in the current climate when it seems Mclaren are the only team eligible for penalties.
#16
BMW_F1
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 20:06
I think they didn't because they though they would get a freebie like it happened many times last year when Lewis was behind the wheel.. Remember the crane.. ?
#17
bankoq
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 20:08
Yeah, the were two fundamental mistakes: one from Lewis and one from McLaren team.
If Lewis was smarter he would just give back the position to Vettel and try again on the next lap (it happend many times in the past, e.g. mentioned Alonso's case). Also guys on the radio could just remind immediately Lewis to give back the position just to be sure everything is OK.
I guess both Lewis & McLaren team were just too greedy.
If Lewis was smarter he would just give back the position to Vettel and try again on the next lap (it happend many times in the past, e.g. mentioned Alonso's case). Also guys on the radio could just remind immediately Lewis to give back the position just to be sure everything is OK.
I guess both Lewis & McLaren team were just too greedy.
#18
BunnyK
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 20:10
It is interesting to notice Alonso took advantage of the slipstream after jumping the chicane, that's why he was called by the stewards, in this case Lewis did the same but never did an attemp to let Vettel ahead, but I recognize the stewards should have notified him he had to let Vettel back ahead.Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
No - Mclaren should have told Lewis to let Vettel back just to be sure or the race stewards should have told them it would be best to let Vettel back through. I dont know why it took them 12 laps to come to a decision. Another example i can think of is Alonso at Suzuka 05. He passed Klien (iirc) somewhat dubiously so just to play it safe he let Klien back through on the main straight (and then again
s!
#19
rye&ginger
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 04:53
I saw it as LH was going in too hot, and was able to stay in front by jumping the chicane. Correct penalty IMO.
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#20
Fatgadget
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 06:01
This poll has been lost in translation...It should read:
Did Lewis press the wrong button!
Did Lewis press the wrong button!
#21
Mat Rempit
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 07:42
Originally posted by mmmcurry
Well, Hamilton said that if he'd have taken the corer properly, then they'd have collided, so he would not have made the corner. If that'd have been Monaco this would have been a poll about whether the manouver was ever gonna stick.
If Hamilton had of just let him back again, then that would have been enough in my opinion.
Steve.
Lewis is lying here,...who can blame a man under pressure and crack under pressure to lie?
Well, the penalty would be -
1. UNFAIR if, Hamilton cut the chicane because Vettel on the inside line overshot his braking point, and going to T-Bone him, Hamilton saw it coming, thus have to take avoid action.
2. FAIR if, Hamilton cut the chicane because in order to be ahead of Vettel on the outside line, he has to brake much later but then lost control of his car.
Vettel as I can see was on the inside line, and maintain the inside line throughout the corner, not losing control.
So it was entirely fair to penalise Hamilton.
To be honest, Hamilton had made a stupid and greedy mistake under pressure, yet he refused to accept the penalty.
Hamilton is painting a fake Mr. Nice Guy face....thats bollocks.,....whatever he tells the press are fake and cannot be trusted.
#22
SB
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 07:52
I feel this is a similar case of a "handball" case inside penalty area in a football match, which the defender did deflected the ball with his hand but he did not raise his arm nor did that intentionally.
It could be * correct * for the referee to give out the penalty as the player's hand did touched and deflected the ball. However it could be also * correct * for not giving te penalty as the player did not do so intentionally.
So for me it is a 50-50 case and whether the penalty is correct or not depending on which team (driver) you are supporting ....
*****
In fact what is most "incorrect" or annoying me would be the inconsistance of judgment standard in between teams ( or they did consistenly pay close close attention to one certain driver ) ... any action ( warning ) from the offical to warn about Kimi's hot exhaust pipe if they run the rules such strictly ?
It could be * correct * for the referee to give out the penalty as the player's hand did touched and deflected the ball. However it could be also * correct * for not giving te penalty as the player did not do so intentionally.
So for me it is a 50-50 case and whether the penalty is correct or not depending on which team (driver) you are supporting ....
*****
In fact what is most "incorrect" or annoying me would be the inconsistance of judgment standard in between teams ( or they did consistenly pay close close attention to one certain driver ) ... any action ( warning ) from the offical to warn about Kimi's hot exhaust pipe if they run the rules such strictly ?
#23
Mat Rempit
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 07:56
The main reason Hamilton cuts the chicane is because he is braking so much later,..on the marbles,...nearly lost the backend,...thus has to straightline the chicane..
Hamilton was right in saying that he needs to cut the chicane to avoid taking out Vettel when his backend steps out and spins,....BUT,...he also gained position by doing overtaking in unfair manner.
If Hamilton's reason is to be agreed upon,....then every time every driver is allowed to straighline the chicane with the reason that they have to go straight instead of turning to avoid taking out the car the driver wants to overtake.
what a stupid excuses from Hamilton. He is sulking.
Hamilton was right in saying that he needs to cut the chicane to avoid taking out Vettel when his backend steps out and spins,....BUT,...he also gained position by doing overtaking in unfair manner.
If Hamilton's reason is to be agreed upon,....then every time every driver is allowed to straighline the chicane with the reason that they have to go straight instead of turning to avoid taking out the car the driver wants to overtake.
what a stupid excuses from Hamilton. He is sulking.
#24
Mat Rempit
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 07:57
Originally posted by SB
I feel this is a similar case of a "handball" case inside penalty area in a football match, which the defender did deflected the ball with his hand but he did not raise his arm nor did that intentionally.
It could be * correct * for the referee to give out the penalty as the player's hand did touched and deflected the ball. However it could be also * correct * for not giving te penalty as the player did not do so intentionally.
So for me it is a 50-50 case and whether the penalty is correct or not depending on which team (driver) you are supporting ....
Its not 50-50....Its a 100% penalty
#25
Mat Rempit
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 08:03
Looking at the poll as at 25th June 2008. It is overwhelming 67% who thinks this is a FAIR penalty.
Lewis Hamilton, the message for you is unfortunately nearly all of the F1 fans worldwide thinks you are wrong and you are under pressure.
Lewis Hamilton, the message for you is unfortunately nearly all of the F1 fans worldwide thinks you are wrong and you are under pressure.
#26
Buttoneer
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 08:56
How can Slategray get away with having 160 separate nicks?
#27
Nitropower
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 09:13
Cutting a chicane to overtake an opponent or prevent him from overtaking you is illegal and so the driver cutting must concede his position. There's no conspiracy, others have been punished too, Ferrari have. Just follow the rules and you won't be punished. End of.
#28
barteks
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 09:15
Of course it was correct. Don't know how people may think differently... 
#29
F1Fanatic.co.uk
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 09:18
Hear, hear.Originally posted by Nitropower
Cutting a chicane to overtake an opponent or prevent him from overtaking you is illegal and so the driver cutting must concede his position. There's no conspiracy, others have been punished too, Ferrari have. Just follow the rules and you won't be punished. End of.
#30
Hames Junt
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 09:31
Where is the option that it was 50/50 but because it was McLaren the penalty was given? :
#31
potmotr
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 09:31
I think the fundamental issue here is that unilateral TV feed was switched to Lewis's onboard camera at the time. There is always plenty of dare-devil driving at the start, but Lewis's mistake was amplified because it was shown live, then replayed dozens of times. Other drivers get away with things away from the TV spotlight IMO.
#32
coyoteBR
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 10:03
I am honestly not sure. The lack of call on Kimi on the same race I am sure it was wrong. But regarding Hamilton case, in the position the cars were, I can see how subjectiveness can play a role of deciding it was/was not an illegal move.
#33
Nitropower
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 10:51
Originally posted by potmotr
I think the fundamental issue here is that unilateral TV feed was switched to Lewis's onboard camera at the time. There is always plenty of dare-devil driving at the start, but Lewis's mistake was amplified because it was shown live, then replayed dozens of times. Other drivers get away with things away from the TV spotlight IMO.
May influence, but there are no excuses, no matter if an onboard camera or a normal camera, if the "referee" sees the foul he has to blow the whistle.
I hope no one's suggesting this kind of actions shouldn't be on TV or something like that...
#34
potmotr
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 10:56
Originally posted by Nitropower
I hope no one's suggesting this kind of actions shouldn't be on TV or something like that...
No no, not at all. But I think there are plenty of incidents that are not caught by the stewards.
For instance, at Bareclona this year we were standing on the straight following the corner where Timo Glock rammed David Coulthard. As they both came out of that corner immediately after that incident Coulthard turned hard left and drove Glock right off the road and onto the grass. This wasn't caught on TV or was never investigated but it was clearly quite a dirty red mist moment from DC.
#35
Nitropower
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:02
So maybe the point is they should improve control on drivers and not depend on certain TV cameras, it's not professional to rely on a cameraman, they should have the means, they pretend they are an ultraprofessional sporting body so they MUST see every action.
#36
MickyD
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:07
Originally posted by potmotr
I think the fundamental issue here is that unilateral TV feed was switched to Lewis's onboard camera at the time. There is always plenty of dare-devil driving at the start, but Lewis's mistake was amplified because it was shown live, then replayed dozens of times. Other drivers get away with things away from the TV spotlight IMO.
The stewards studied the circuit's own CCTV camera's, as well as the TV feed to make their decision.
However, I do not understand why the TV producer did not show an outside shot of the whole thing in a replay, they would surely have had it covered. This particualr race was produced by FOM TV themselves - they are the best, but one wonders whether they were "discouraged" to show another angle? Despite all the current public clap trap FOM/FIA are still joined at the hip!
Intersting to note also that the chief steward at this event was none other than Alan Donnoly of the FIA, Max Mosley's main man. I have to wonder whether another chief steward might have given Mclaren the benefit of the doubt under these "very close to call" circumstances.
#37
wonk123
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:08
Originally posted by Risil
Maybe if there were fewer chicanes we wouldn't have this silly debate.
I mean, how stupid is that? This isn't Super Mario Kart, so why should there be such readily-usable shortcuts left around the track?
lets git rid of corners too.. sorry they are not really designed for drag racing, well how about an oval then no one can cut a corner
#38
The Lonely
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:09
of course Vettel cut the chicane at Montreal many times to prevent Heikki overtaking him and was never penalised.
#39
potmotr
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:14
Originally posted by MickyD
However, I do not understand why the TV producer did not show an outside shot of the whole thing in a replay, they would surely have had it covered.
They would have missed the shot. The first lap is the toughest to film. The whole 20 car field is pouring through and the cameramen have to decide which car to pan with as the pack comes through. Quite often they go with the leaders, or else wait until 8th or so in the pack. But they almost always pan before the full field has gone through. Chances are, the cameras which normally catch that chicane had already panned off by the time Lewis arrived.
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#40
Tigershark
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:18
I'd say it was quite clear, perhaps especially on the onboard view, that Hamilton seemed to carry so much more speed into that corner and that Vettel's assasement of the situation was correct: "[Lewis] kept going. For me it was clear that he was going to cut the chicane."Originally posted by stevvy1986
impossible to say due to the fact we only got 1 view,and that was the onboard view
#41
HP
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:31
I voted correct call, and I would have do that had any other driver pulled the same stunt.
What good does a chicane? The German verb for it means "to harass". I think that says it all.Originally posted by wonk123
lets git rid of corners too.. sorry they are not really designed for drag racing, well how about an oval then no one can cut a corner
#42
Mat
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:19
It's a shame the FIA dont mandate a working onboard camera on every car, similar to what V8 Supercars do.
It would stop alot of this **** about right or wrong decision.
It would stop alot of this **** about right or wrong decision.
#43
BMW_F1
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Posted 25 June 2008 - 23:58
Heikki
"I don't think it's too many penalties," he told Autosport. "We get a penalty whenever we do something wrong.
"And I don't think we should read into it too much. We need to make sure we don't make mistakes and then we won't receive any penalties. I don't think there are more penalties for McLaren than for others.
"I think we have made some mistakes, I have made some mistakes and we need to make sure we won't do them again, and then it will be fine."
"I don't think it's too many penalties," he told Autosport. "We get a penalty whenever we do something wrong.
"And I don't think we should read into it too much. We need to make sure we don't make mistakes and then we won't receive any penalties. I don't think there are more penalties for McLaren than for others.
"I think we have made some mistakes, I have made some mistakes and we need to make sure we won't do them again, and then it will be fine."
#44
Fatgadget
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 00:10
^^^What did you expect Heiki to say......
"Yeah those barstewards at the FIA have got it in for us, every time we so much as sneeze they nail us with undeserved penalties" ?
"Yeah those barstewards at the FIA have got it in for us, every time we so much as sneeze they nail us with undeserved penalties" ?
#45
imaginesix
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 04:51
LOL, yeah right, nothing to do with the competence of the stewards. No, if you want to stop all this **** about the right or wrong call, you need to remove all cameras!Originally posted by Mat
It's a shame the FIA dont mandate a working onboard camera on every car, similar to what V8 Supercars do.
It would stop alot of this **** about right or wrong decision.
#46
as65p
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:15
Originally posted by BMW_F1
Heikki
"I don't think it's too many penalties," he told Autosport. "We get a penalty whenever we do something wrong.
"And I don't think we should read into it too much. We need to make sure we don't make mistakes and then we won't receive any penalties. I don't think there are more penalties for McLaren than for others.
"I think we have made some mistakes, I have made some mistakes and we need to make sure we won't do them again, and then it will be fine."
Oh dear, Lewis' peers really rubbing it in for him... those latest sensible statements, first from Nico about Canada and now from Heikki, make Lewis whining how the whole world is out to screw him stick out even more.
#47
mursuka80
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 08:15
Originally posted by BMW_F1
Heikki
"I don't think it's too many penalties," he told Autosport. "We get a penalty whenever we do something wrong.
"And I don't think we should read into it too much. We need to make sure we don't make mistakes and then we won't receive any penalties. I don't think there are more penalties for McLaren than for others.
"I think we have made some mistakes, I have made some mistakes and we need to make sure we won't do them again, and then it will be fine."
Well Finnish drivers usually dont whine in a press
Heikki respect 
#48
geGR
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 08:21
Originally posted by BMW_F1
Heikki
"I don't think it's too many penalties," he told Autosport. "We get a penalty whenever we do something wrong.
"And I don't think we should read into it too much. We need to make sure we don't make mistakes and then we won't receive any penalties. I don't think there are more penalties for McLaren than for others.
"I think we have made some mistakes, I have made some mistakes and we need to make sure we won't do them again, and then it will be fine."
Amen!!!
#49
Gareth
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 09:46
Completely agree. A driver with a persecution complex is never attractive. Lewis ought to have learnt that last year ...Originally posted by as65p
Oh dear, Lewis' peers really rubbing it in for him... those latest sensible statements, first from Nico about Canada and now from Heikki, make Lewis whining how the whole world is out to screw him stick out even more.
#50
undersquare
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 10:01
There are two separate issues here.
1. Did he have to cut the chicane because of the pass? Answer, yes. Whether because he was carrying too much speed, braked later, was on a wider line, whatever the exact reason, it was connected with the pass.
But then, issue #2 is about the penalty. As Crazy Ninja reminded us about Fernando in 05, the stewards could have just told him to let Vettel through and try again later. Waiting 12 laps and then issuing a drive-through was suspicious, I think.
So I voted No.
1. Did he have to cut the chicane because of the pass? Answer, yes. Whether because he was carrying too much speed, braked later, was on a wider line, whatever the exact reason, it was connected with the pass.
But then, issue #2 is about the penalty. As Crazy Ninja reminded us about Fernando in 05, the stewards could have just told him to let Vettel through and try again later. Waiting 12 laps and then issuing a drive-through was suspicious, I think.
So I voted No.
