How many new cars won on their debut?`
#1
Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:30
What are the others ?
Best,
Ross
#3
Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:39
#4
Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:57
#5
Posted 22 July 2008 - 14:21
Originally posted by alansart
The first GP every year for the last 20 years, I guess the winning car is on it's debut.
not in 2002: (what was officially still a 2001 Ferrari won that)
Henri
#6
Posted 22 July 2008 - 14:38
Originally posted by Henri Greuter
not in 2002: (what was officially still a 2001 Ferrari won that)
Henri
Nice one
Perhaps pre 1990, or even pre 1980 is more relevant.
#7
Posted 22 July 2008 - 14:57
Originally posted by alansart
Nice one
Perhaps pre 1990, or even pre 1980 is more relevant.
Thanks.
Indeed, before 1990 and perhaps even earlier is still relevant.
And/or other categories of racing like Sportscars and Rallycars.
As for the latter: as far as I can remember, Lancia has an interesting statistic on that one,
DeltaS4, Delta HF4wd, Delta Integrale, Delta Integrale 16V, and the last evo version of the Delta, (out on top of my heat that was simply another "Delta Integrale"???? It was nicknamed "Deltona" by some) all of them won their first ever event in World rallying.
henri
#8
Posted 22 July 2008 - 15:06
#9
Posted 22 July 2008 - 15:56
#10
Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:08
Do you mean in period, in historic racing, or both?Originally posted by fines
Every GP winner before WW1, many early Indy winners, too, and at least three Maserati 250Fs.
I think Ross is right if talking about the Chapman/Costin version winning the 1956 International TrophyOriginally posted by Allan Lupton
Vanwall????
#11
Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:28
Jesper
#12
Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:30
Frontenac 183 (1920)
Frontenac 183-8C (1921)
Miller 122 (1923)
Duesenberg 122-2V-SC (1924)
Miller 91 (1926)
Miller-Hartz Mk I (1930)
Schneider/Miller Mk II (1931)
Miller-Hartz Mk II (1932)
Petillo/Offenhauser Mk I (1935)
Moore/Offenhauser "Burd PR" (1938)
Maserati 8CTF '3032' (1939)
Moore/Offenhauser "Blue Crown SP" (1947)
Kurtis/Offenhauser 500C '382-55' (1955)
Watson/Offenhauser "IC-56" (1956)
Salih/Offenhauser "IC-57" (1957)
Watson/Offenhauser "IC-60" (1960)
Trevis/Offenhauser "IC-61" (1961)
Watson/Offenhauser "IC-62" (1962)
Lotus/Ford 38 (1965)
Lola/Ford T92 (1966)
after that it gets difficult...
#13
Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:37
In period, of course - I'm not interested in historic "racing" - or should that be "historic" racing?;)Originally posted by D-Type
Do you mean in period, in historic racing, or both?
For the record, the three I'm thinking of are Fangio's 1954 Argentine winner, Moss's 1956 Italian GP winner and Fangio's 1957 Argentine winner. They also respresent three different (sub) designs, but that wasn't my point - the way the question is posed, every new chassis of an existing design counts, so I'm sure there's a McLaren M23 or a Lotus 72 in there, too! But damned if I can think of one from memory... old age, oh dear!
#14
Posted 22 July 2008 - 17:41
By the revised definition, the 250F would only count once.
Best,
Ross
#15
Posted 22 July 2008 - 17:57
Originally posted by rl1856
I'll clarify- A new design winning in it's first race. Meaning a new model, not a new version of an existing model.
Ross
So where does that leave the McLaren CanAm cars? The M6A, M8A, M8B, M8D, M8F and M20 all won on their debuts in successive years, a truly remarkable achievement by any standards. Most who worked on them would say that these were six quite separate designs with very little carry-over from the previous year's car, so what's the McLaren score here?
#16
Posted 22 July 2008 - 18:34
#17
Posted 22 July 2008 - 18:44
#18
Posted 22 July 2008 - 19:30
Agreed, but he just said "Vanwall": a statement of which Vanwall would have been better, as was the later sharpening of definitions.Originally posted by D-Type
I think Ross is right if talking about the Chapman/Costin version winning the 1956 International Trophy [/B]
However as has been said, for the majority of the history of Grand Prix racing the winner of an early race of each season, if not always the first, was a car on its debut and particularly inevitable after a change of formula.
#19
Posted 22 July 2008 - 21:02
#21
Posted 22 July 2008 - 22:13
#22
Posted 22 July 2008 - 22:26
Now what seperated 003 from 001 and 002 that was more of a "new model" than the fuoricentro and Tipo due 250Fs???Originally posted by tobbe j
Tyrrell 003
This is getting ridiculous...
#23
Posted 24 July 2008 - 17:50
#24
Posted 25 July 2008 - 09:50
Originally posted by rl1856
I'll clarify- A new design winning in it's first race. Meaning a new model, not a new version of an existing model.
By the revised definition, the 250F would only count once.
Best,
Ross
To any non-pedant, that was understood..............................
#25
Posted 25 July 2008 - 09:51
#26
Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:29
Originally posted by Henri Greuter
not in 2002: (what was officially still a 2001 Ferrari won that)
Henri
And when the 02 Ferrari did debut in Brazil it still won its first race.
#27
Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:46
Alfasud, Porsche, GP2...
#28
Posted 25 July 2008 - 18:29
Remind us what race that combination won?Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Aston-Martin F1 in the hands of Roy Salvadori - Can't argue with that one!
#29
Posted 25 July 2008 - 19:23
#30
Posted 25 July 2008 - 19:35
#31
Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:46
Originally posted by David McKinney
Remind us what race that combination won?
1959 - DBR/250 - Was it the International Trophy Race?
#32
Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:48
#33
Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:53
Niel Allen took an unexpected win first time out at the Farm when Matich expired early, as I recall. In fact, I think all rear engined V8 Elfin Sports Cars won their first events, Matich in the 400 (Traco Olds) and Garrie Cooper surely won first time out in the MS7?
#34
Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:53
#35
Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:56
The 250F was an evolution of the A6GCM with a bigger engine and De Dion rear suspension, whereas the W196 was completely new; likewise the Lotus 49.
After that, even when engine rules change the first victor of the new formula is usually an evolution of the previous car, so there are very few 'clean sheet' winners over the years.
Paul M
#36
Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:58
Because you were trying to be clever by saying "can't argue about that one" - which was patent nonsenseOriginally posted by Bloggsworth
if you already knew I was wrong, why not just say so instead of trying to be clever about it?
#37
Posted 25 July 2008 - 21:05
#38
Posted 25 July 2008 - 21:10
Maurer/BMW MM82, Reynard/Volkswagen 853, in fact in the junior formulae with production cars, almost every year a new design won, albeit mostly "evolutionary" - not those two, though.
EDIT: sorry, it's late and I'm tired, the MM82 was of course evolutionary
#39
Posted 25 July 2008 - 23:27
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#40
Posted 26 July 2008 - 12:07
The 1968 Honda was all-new but never won................
The first heat of the 1962 Bruxelles GP was won by the BRM P578, in its first race, but non-championship; the 1966 Siracusa GP was the first race and win for the Ferrari 312 but again n/c.
Paul M
#41
Posted 26 July 2008 - 15:55
Tipo 60 July 12, 1959 Rouen Stirling Moss
Tipo 61 Oct 24, 1959 Dothan E.D. Martin
And yes, the engine of the Tipo 60 was an evolution of the 200SI.
all research Willem Oosthoek.
#42
Posted 26 July 2008 - 16:08
The car had been used as the Course Car on an earlier Rally, which if it actually entered, would have won by nine minutes
Kind regards
Phil
#43
Posted 26 July 2008 - 17:12
The following year, the Williams-Renault FW14B won its first five races, but that car was an evolution of the previous year's. In any case, its success was more due to the virtuosity of the driver than to any virtue of the car, as the former frequently said.
#44
Posted 26 July 2008 - 17:21
Well, with the second most virtuos driver finishing in second on each occasion save one, perhaps it didn't matter too much after all...Originally posted by Roger Clark
In any case, its success was more due to the virtuosity of the driver than to any virtue of the car, as the former frequently said.
#45
Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:08
Wilbur Shaw, fresh from winning his first Ascot feature in another car five weeks earlier, qualified for the "Italian Helmet Dash" for the three fastest cars, the first event on the schedule, and won in the car's first ever start, even if it was over only two laps of a five-eights-of-a-mile circuit, and taking just under a minute from start to finish! He followed that up with second place in the 100-lap feature, and a win in the next 100-lapper a fortnight later.
#46
Posted 05 August 2008 - 00:29
I reckon Garry won first time out in the MR9 too, though it was a shakedown run at a club meeting. The single post rear wing had a fair case of the wobbles at speed. [At AIR]Originally posted by Ray Bell
I guess the Elfin ME2 wouldn't be considered worth mentioning here?
Niel Allen took an unexpected win first time out at the Farm when Matich expired early, as I recall. In fact, I think all rear engined V8 Elfin Sports Cars won their first events, Matich in the 400 (Traco Olds) and Garrie Cooper surely won first time out in the MS7?
#47
Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:12
Ray you mention Niel Allen beating Frank Matich .... that would have been in the SR4, which was about the only time other than Sandown (where it disappeared in a cloud of smoke going into Peters Corner) that I remember it being beaten. Or is my memory deserting me?....
Didn't Frank Matich also have a pretty good score rate with first up wins in most of his cars? The SR3, SR4 and the F 5000's ??????
#48
Posted 05 August 2008 - 07:06
Yes, Matich had a bunch of first time wins. Most notable was the A50's win in the AGP at Warwick Farm.
#49
Posted 06 August 2008 - 21:00