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Cecil Sandford

Started by Herr Wankel , Jan 28 2009 16:22

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38 replies to this topic

#1 Herr Wankel

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 16:22

Hello All

Just 'won this great Nick Nicholls photo on the dreaded -bay.
Its taken at Silverstone May 1961,in a 'Comeback' race for the Great World Champion (He was MVs 1st),Does anyone have any other details of this meeting.It says on the back Silverstone 1000 20/05/1961 Maggotts Curve.I like it.
Posted Image

Cheers HW

#2 Paul Parker

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 17:28

If my memory is still functioning reasonably (although it could do with de-fragging) that is an Aerial Leader is it not?

#3 Herr Wankel

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 17:58

Hi Paul,
Close,its an Arrow,the 'sports' version.Bit more tinware on the Leader.
HW

#4 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 18:07

....and it's also Ariel and not aerial. :wave:

But a cracking photo all the same. George Brown and his son Tony used to sprint one of these, and held some speed records too.

#5 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 18:39

Hi Herr, great shot - no idea that Sandford came back that late. Bemsee ran a 1000 kilometre production race around then so......

Was it George Meir who developed racing Arrows around that time ? Mike O'Rourke raced one of them and I think finished around 7th in the 250 TT '60/61?

George....Otherwise known as Herman.

#6 Herr Wankel

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 19:50

Hi Russell,
Yes I believe that Herman was instrumental in tuning the Ariels,and possibly the design.I seem to recall reading that he came to Ariel from Adler.The layout (steeply angled cylinders etc) closely follows the Adler design.Talking to friend Motard today,he seems to think that Peter Inchley rode one.Possibly this one as it would need two pilots for a long endurance race.Mike O'Rourke was first non factory rider home in an early 60s lightweight TT.Someone out there must have a prog.from this race.
HW

#7 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 20:09

Yes, an innovative design created at the begining of the end of our bike industry. Perhaps if there had been more fresh thinking like this, and a willingness to properly invest.........

#8 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 20:33

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Hi Herr, great shot - no idea that Sandford came back that late. Bemsee ran a 1000 kilometre production race around then so......

Was it George Meir who developed racing Arrows around that time ? Mike O'Rourke raced one of them and I think finished around 7th in the 250 TT '60/61?

George....Otherwise known as Herman.

A dash before my time, but I was also thinking endurance race because of the generous padding on the tank.
Smashing pic BTW.

I met George (pronounced Chorch by the Germans) in, I think, 1980. Grand old gent he was. Sadly, passed away a few years ago I believe

#9 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 20:51

After a bit of Googling: Val Page was the designer and the Arrow was devolped from the Leader, which apparently was on the drawing board from around 1954.

Yes Rhodie, George has gone. Was he connected with Herman?

#10 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 21:30

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
After a bit of Googling: Val Page was the designer and the Arrow was devolped from the Leader, which apparently was on the drawing board from around 1954.

Yes Rhodie, George has gone. Was he connected with Herman?

I don´t know Russ.

#11 fil2.8

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 22:45

Originally posted by Herr Wankel
Hi Paul,
Close,its an Arrow,the 'sports' version.Bit more tinware on the Leader.
HW

The 'Golden Arrow' was the sports version , I had several Arrows, the first one a 1960 version with a DBD dustbin fairing --reg YUW 505 my 1st road bike --open the throttle and the choke would flick on :eek:

a common fault IIRC

#12 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 09:08

George Brown was always connected with Vincents of course, and he and his son Tony, ran a motorcycle shop on Stevenage, the home of Vincents. I remember he always used to hire old airfield runways often in the depths of winter to make his attempts on World Records on 'Nero' and 'Super Nero'.

I watched George and Tiny often at the twice-yearly sprints along the Ramsgate Esplanade, and organise by the Sunbeam MCC.

I think Alf Hagon beat him to 200mph on British soil although years later in discussions with Fred Cooper ("Cylcotron - the twin engined LSR dream) tactfully mentioned to me that there was a lot of gamesmanship involved and 'perhaps' Alf never quite managed 200 (if you know what I mean).

#13 Paul Parker

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 09:29

Sorry about the spelling and wrong model, it's over 40 years since I've seen one of these!

Yours humbly not a motorbike expert.

#14 Herr Wankel

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 13:10

Thanks to all posters on this matter.I too had so many Leaders and Arrows as a young 'un I should have been locked up for my own safety!Heres our own present one.Its my 14 year old sons,left to him by his uncle in Oz.He's so proud of it
Posted Image

#15 fil2.8

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 14:29

Originally posted by Herr Wankel
Thanks to all posters on this matter.I too had so many Leaders and Arrows as a young 'un I should have been locked up for my own safety!Heres our own present one.Its my 14 year old sons,left to him by his uncle in Oz.He's so proud of it

HW

Very nice HW :up:

,that is the same colour as my 2nd Arrow , it looks to be in good order ,I look back on my Arrow days with great affection .Only trouble was your friends did'nt follow to closely :lol:

--started me on a life-time love affair with 2-smokers :kiss:

#16 Herr Wankel

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 17:41

Yes you soon became 'Billy no mates' if you manged to get in front of your pals.
HW

#17 Russell Burrows

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 18:35

I've never ridden one but recall, I think, that they had 17 inch wheels and not oodles of ground clearance, so when like speedy young Phil you had to crank it over quite hard, wasnt it a bit too easy to ground everything?

#18 bradbury west

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 18:40

Of course, if you got 6 Ariel Leader engines, put them together as 2 banks of 3 pairs, set as a 90 degree V12 you could have one of these.

photo copyright Roger Lund.
Roger Lund

#19 fil2.8

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 19:06

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
I've never ridden one but recall, I think, that they had 17 inch wheels and not oodles of ground clearance, so when like speedy young Phil you had to crank it over quite hard, wasnt it a bit too easy to ground everything?

Well Russ , in those days I did'nt crank over as in later days , but you are correct . The handling however was pretty good --the brakes were another matter :eek:

just a shame it was'nt devolped a bit more i.e twin carbs -- which was ny impossible with the frame as it was :rolleyes:

#20 fil2.8

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 19:09

Originally posted by bradbury west
Of course, if you got 6 Ariel Leader engines, put them together as 2 banks of 3 pairs, set as a 90 degree V12 you could have one of these.

photo copyright Roger Lund.
Roger Lund

All I can say is WOW + is that yours Roger ?? and whose idea ??

#21 exclubracer

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 19:09

I also recall seeing a photo of Ron Phillips of Fahron Engineering fame astride a 125 that was built by Fahron from half of an Ariel Leader motor, don't know if it was actually raced though.

#22 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 19:44

I once saw an engine identical to that at Tom Wheatcroft's Donnington Museum. What is the story behind it, please.

#23 bradbury west

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 20:16

Do a BB Search at the top of the TNF main page for Rotorvic, or just google Rotorvic. Tells you everything. It was at the Goodwood Festival in 2008, so check on Goodwood FoS pics via BB Seach. There is at least one photo. When it ran there I suspect the throttle was set at one speed, certainly sounded like it from start-up, as it droned up the hill, fresh from a Peter Denty rebuild. Check the John Bolster/Autosport write up for the full story and Lotus 23 website.
Roger Lund

#24 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 22:52

Photo: www.myvincent.co.uk

#25 Herr Wankel

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 19:29

Heres an interesting snippet I found on the Stratford upon Avon MCC website.The mind boggles at the thought;
In 1963, with a friend, Cecil drove one of the first ever produced 3/25 model Reliant 3-wheeled saloon cars, registration number 342ENX, in the Monte Carlo Rally, not as a competitor, of course, but to prove the reliability and road worthiness of the Reliant. This was achieved and a special plaque was presented to mark their performance.
Any more info on this 1961 'comeback' at Silverstone anyone?

#26 racehound

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 14:15

Of course, if you got 6 Ariel Leader engines, put them together as 2 banks of 3 pairs, set as a 90 degree V12 you could have one of these.

photo copyright Roger Lund.
Roger Lund

I was under the impression it was 6 Ariel Arrows 250 twins, arranged in two banks of 6 cylinders at 90 degrees. More history on this unique vehicle at www.rotorvic.co.uk

#27 Herr Wankel

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 18:34

I was under the impression it was 6 Ariel Arrows 250 twins, arranged in two banks of 6 cylinders at 90 degrees. More history on this unique vehicle at www.rotorvic.co.uk

Arrow/Leader motors essentially the same.Bit bigger Monobloc carb on the sports (Arrow) models and squish heads.Soon to wade into the guts of ours.Have some mildly ported barrels,matched pistons and 'stuffed' cranks to put in.Daren't go too far as the 4 cog box is a bit wide ratio.2 grand (yes 2) for a Nova 6 speed.Anybody got an old CR 4 speeder in a dusty box under the bench?
HW

#28 billbomann

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 21:48

Hello All
Just 'won this great Nick Nicholls photo on the dreaded -bay.
Its taken at Silverstone May 1961,in a 'Comeback' race for the Great World Champion (He was MVs 1st),Does anyone have any other details of this meeting.It says on the back Silverstone 1000 20/05/1961 Maggotts Curve.I like it.

Cheers HW

I know its a long time ago that this picture appeared. I have two potential names as co-pilots for Cecil Sandford; Sammy Miller and Mrs Pat Wise

Apologies if anyone has cleared this query up. The time spent on here this day shows how much the 25th of December means to me!

#29 Continental Circus

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 09:49

I know its a long time ago that this picture appeared. I have two potential names as co-pilots for Cecil Sandford; Sammy Miller and Mrs Pat Wise

Apologies if anyone has cleared this query up. The time spent on here this day shows how much the 25th of December means to me!

On 20-5-61 in the BMCRR "Silverstone 1000" #38 was Ariel Arrow Sports 248cc.
Riden by Cecil Sandford and Sammy Miller.
It was in the lead of the 250 class for 6 hrs but after 7 hrs was not listed, when Robin Good and Peter Inchley led on a similar Arrow Sports.
At this time these events were called Production Races with usually 3 classes, 1,000, 500, 250.
A happy new year to all.
Roy

#30 rotrax

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:25

Hi, Great shot,but then Nick Nicholls was one of the best.My wife and I saw Cecil at Bill Davies funeral in Shipston on Stour a few years ago.Ron and Dave Langston were there too.He still lives around the Shipston area. In Sport,Rotrax.

#31 redturner37

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 13:54

I once saw an engine identical to that at Tom Wheatcroft's Donnington Museum. What is the story behind it, please.

I saw this engine lots of times at Donington. It was built as a 1.5 litre F1 engine. Beautifully engineered, it was originally fitted to a Lotus 23B sports car which went to the US. The last time I saw it was at Stoneleigh a couple of years ago when they had both been re united. And I have somewhere, amongst the family posessions, Cecil Sandfords autograph which I got at Scarborough, Olivers Mount about 1953. On the same programme was Geoff Duke Gilera, John Surtees works Norton and Franky Fox on Garners Manx, and in fact that was the finishing order in the Senior race

#32 nexfast

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Posted 29 November 2023 - 21:20

Just read in an italian newsletter that Cecil Sandford has passed away at the age of 95. R.I.P.

#33 Alan Lewis

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Posted 29 November 2023 - 22:15

Just read in an italian newsletter that Cecil Sandford has passed away at the age of 95. R.I.P.

The last World Champion from the 1950s. The oldest living title-winner is now Jim Redman who turned 92 earlier this month.

#34 tonyed

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Posted 30 November 2023 - 18:09

I do think it's time to resurrect some of these older threads from the heyday of this site.

Get back to the vibrancy it had 10 -15 years ago.

Having just retired I have some time to go back over the old threads.

Might be resurrecting some.

Edited by tonyed, 01 December 2023 - 07:04.

#35 barrykm

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Posted 01 December 2023 - 07:53

Hello All
Just 'won this great Nick Nicholls photo on the dreaded -bay.
Its taken at Silverstone May 1961,in a 'Comeback' race for the Great World Champion (He was MVs 1st),Does anyone have any other details of this meeting.It says on the back Silverstone 1000 20/05/1961 Maggotts Curve.I like it.

Cheers HW

A great pic - I really like Cecil Sandford's positve body langauge, even on a relatively modest machine.

Edited by barrykm, 02 December 2023 - 16:48.

#36 brands77

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Posted 01 December 2023 - 11:08

I have always thought that Cecil Sandford was under-rated. He didn't seem to get as much acclaim as the other British former World Champions of that era. He was a before my time, I started watching in the mid 70's, but Duke, Surtees, Les Graham, Bill Lomas and even Bob McIntyre were still pretty famous even in the 70s. He and Fergus Anderson seemed to fly under the radar, yet both were multiple world champions.

Was Cecil a quiet character and less inclined towards the limelight, was it because his titles were in the smaller classes or was it something else?

Looking at the photos above, he doesn't look like he was particularly small in stature and although he rode in all the solo classes he seems to have had most success in the 125cc category.

#37 Michael Ferner

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Posted 05 December 2023 - 10:36

RIP, CCS!

As for his standing amongst the greats of the sport, I guess it was both: success mainly in the lower categories, and a bit of a quiet character, I gather, maybe to do with his cleft lip. You mentioned Fergus Anderson, who was rather the opposite, and also extremely successful outside of championship events - if he was 'flying under the radar' in the seventies, the radar was broke!

#38 Myhinpaa

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Posted 07 December 2023 - 10:04

A tribute from Mat Oxley in Motorsport Magazine:

https://www.motorspo...as-history-man/

#39 Michael Ferner

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Posted 07 December 2023 - 10:48

Very good article! :up:

... though it contains one little slip: the exclamation mark in the sentence about the "ten-lap (!) Golden Jubilee TT Lightweight race", which was run on the Clypse circuit, of course, making it a rather mundane 100 mile jaunt