0614: BREAKING NEWS FROM SEPANG: McLaren sporting director Dave Ryan - who accompanied Lewis Hamilton to the fateful stewards' meeting in Australia - has been seen leaving the track with packed bags. Subsequently there is speculation that he has left the team after more than 30 years' service. Communications director Matt Bishop told BBC Sport the team were "not confirming anything at the moment" but added that McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh would hold a news conference later on Friday.
Source BBC
Dave Ryan leaving mclaren
Started by
The July Plot
, Apr 03 2009 05:18
269 replies to this topic
#4
The July Plot
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:22
Was he not promoted at the end of last year?, Seems he might be made a scapegoat for 'trullligate', which is a shame if ture, I suppose we will have to wait and see.
#5
senna da silva
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:25
Originally posted by The July Plot
Was he not promoted at the end of last year?, Seems he might be made a scapegoat for 'trullligate', which is a shame if ture, I suppose we will have to wait and see.
Scapegoat or the person actually responsible for the debacle?
#6
mclarensmps
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:25
Oh dear, dear, me...
#7
Craven Morehead
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:30
If it's true, that just makes me sad. 
sh!t happens, win as a team, lose as a team & all that.
sh!t happens, win as a team, lose as a team & all that.
#8
wingwalker
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:32
Originally posted by senna da silva
Scapegoat or the person actually responsible for the debacle?
Well, even if the initial idea was his, everyone went with it.
#9
hunnylander
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:33
Originally posted by senna da silva
Scapegoat or the person actually responsible for the debacle?
Yes. Lewis is a child compared to him, following the instructions of his team's leaders. Obviously Ryan might be the responsible for the farce, to give Lewis the incorrect words or not to correct him.
#10
KiloWatt
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:33
Holy balls!!
Might this not be a *slight* overreaction on the part of McLaren? Unless there is more to this than we know, it's not THAT big an issue, surely. Teams lie all the time.
Might this not be a *slight* overreaction on the part of McLaren? Unless there is more to this than we know, it's not THAT big an issue, surely. Teams lie all the time.
#11
David Ricardo
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 05:36
Maybe he told Hamilton to lie to the stewards, Hamilton did what he usually does (say whatever he is told to say), therefore causing the Trulligate.
#12
Craven Morehead
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:03
Well its on Atlas now. Ryan is gone. Witmarsh will speak to it in a while. Sad really. Ryan joined McLaren as a mechanic in 74, went on to become chief mechanic, then factory manager, then team manager since 1990, then sporting director last year. Now he's out due to one seemingly incongruous decision. Still seems a bit harsh though, he obviously dedicated himself and his career to the McLaren team. 1974 till 2009 that's uh, carry the one, 35 years. I feel for him.
#13
OO7
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:06
This is all quite sad. I remember last year at Brazil, the emotion and joy from the McLaren team. That Brazil race was the first time I actually took notice of Dave Ryan as he took part in an interview describing how the team felt winning the championship. It was touching to see the just how emotion he and the team were that day, how things have changed. He has been with the team for such a long time I'm sure he was considered as part of the furniture, this is sad indeed. I hope his departure doesn't create too big a void and is not too detrimental to McLaren's progress.
Obi
Obi
#14
Lopek
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:07
Classic McLaren. Protest their innocence, and then fire someone for that "innocence"? 
#15
Ricardo F1
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:09
How is this classic?Originally posted by Lopek
Classic McLaren. Protest their innocence, and then fire someone for that "innocence"?
Oh you were trying to be funny. Well done, honestly, well done.
Looks to me like Ryan overstepped his bounds and did something that frankly was totally unnecessary. Hopefully they've just sent Dave home to have a long think, but frankly if he did go in their and lie then that's a pretty serious breach of trust.
#16
ensign14
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:24
Looks a bit scapegoatish. Dismissing someone for gross misconduct does not happen in a week. So it's going to have been mutual. Meanwhile McLaren can do the Benetton trick of blaming a junior employee of doing something that was not authorized and therefore escape exclusion from the Championship.
#17
AFCA
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:28
Originally posted by Lopek
Classic McLaren. Protest their innocence, and then fire someone for that "innocence"?
Yes that's contradictory (although of course we don't know the details yet but McLaren is obviously going to make a nice story about it). A shame to see it happen...
#18
primer
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:28
Liar Dave Ryan tarnished Mclaren and Lewis' image. Liar Dave Ryan created this controversy. Liar Dave Ryan can f*** off.
Well done Mclaren-Mercedes. They should investigate the matter and if found necessary fire Martin whitmarsh too. Too much filth.
Well done Mclaren-Mercedes. They should investigate the matter and if found necessary fire Martin whitmarsh too. Too much filth.
#19
Guizotia
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:29
Originally posted by Lopek
Classic McLaren. Protest their innocence, and then fire someone for that "innocence"?
From the comments of different people at McLaren during this, I dont think that David Ryan and Lewis shared what they'd said with the rest of the team.
I certainly think that Martin Whitmarsh did not know about it yesterday. He seemed utterly convinced that this was about not voluntarily revealing information, rather than lying to a question asked.
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#20
Motormedia
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:41
This follows a pattern seen before. McLaren trying to clean up, while instead digging themselves even deeper in the hole with their contradictory statements. They did the same thing in Spygate.
#21
VoidNT
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:41
Someone had to go after such a debacle, too bad it was Dave Ryan, Ron's right hand for 25 years and one of the oldest McLaren guys. Probably he wanted to leave the duty simultaneously with Ron or do something new like Steve Hallam, or he wanted the leading job that was given to Whitmarsh and in the end felt like it's the right time to quit. Ryan is so experienced, and was talking with the stewards for many years, I can't believe he could do something so stupid. Anyway quite a big loss for McLaren.
#22
Lopek
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:42
Yes, like Mike Coughlin overstepped his bounds... McLaren don't know anything about what it's staff are doing, and so should not be held responsible.Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Looks to me like Ryan overstepped his bounds and did something that frankly was totally unnecessary. Hopefully they've just sent Dave home to have a long think, but frankly if he did go in their and lie then that's a pretty serious breach of trust.
Yes it's a pretty serious breach of trust between him and the team, and equally between McLaren and the sport - and both should be treated equally harshly imo.
#23
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:43
To be fair to McLaren, Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton were the only guys in the hearing and if Lewis did lie, we can deduct that either Dave Ryan continued the lie or did not correct it at the time. So they're both equally guilty for the incident.
#24
SchumiBoy
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:47
I don't understand why people are so quick to defend this scapegoat approach.
What the FIA reports from the stewards meeting is exactly the same as Whitmarsh said to the BBC
This is not a single guy going rogue as much as McLaren might like it
"At the end, under the safety car, Trulli fell off onto the grass and Lewis had no choice but to go past him, he was not on the racing circuit," the team's principal Martin Whitmarsh told the BBC.
"Trulli then re-took the place under the safety car, which ordinarily you wouldn't do so I know that the FIA are looking at it at the moment and doubtless we'll have a ruling in due course."
What the FIA reports from the stewards meeting is exactly the same as Whitmarsh said to the BBC
This is not a single guy going rogue as much as McLaren might like it
"At the end, under the safety car, Trulli fell off onto the grass and Lewis had no choice but to go past him, he was not on the racing circuit," the team's principal Martin Whitmarsh told the BBC.
"Trulli then re-took the place under the safety car, which ordinarily you wouldn't do so I know that the FIA are looking at it at the moment and doubtless we'll have a ruling in due course."
#25
femi
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:48
Originally posted by AFCA
Yes that's contradictory (although of course we don't know the details yet but McLaren is obviously going to make a nice story about it). A shame to see it happen...
Why then don't we wait before we start drawing some obvious conclusions?
#26
Guizotia
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:49
Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
To be fair to McLaren, Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton were the only guys in the hearing and if Lewis did lie, we can deduct that either Dave Ryan continued the lie or did not correct it at the time. So they're both equally guilty for the incident.
Or alternatively, "if David did lie, we can deduct that either Lewis Hamilton continued the lie or did not correct it at the time". They would be equally responsible ultimately, but this is a more understandable on Lewis' part.
#27
VoidNT
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:49
If Lewis for some reason started to tell a lie then it's quite possible Ryan followed his driver, just to support and not contradict him before the stewards, which would have been embarrassing for Hamilton. In McLaren with their culture of supporting their driver no matter what it's quite possible scenario. But it's highly unlikely Hamilton first told the truth to the reporters and then lied to the stewards, it's just not rational.
#28
mistareno
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:50
Originally posted by Guizotia
From the comments of different people at McLaren during this, I dont think that David Ryan and Lewis shared what they'd said with the rest of the team.
I certainly think that Martin Whitmarsh did not know about it yesterday. He seemed utterly convinced that this was about not voluntarily revealing information, rather than lying to a question asked.
If it is true that he was sacked, the reason was probably not because he lied or omitted information in the first inquiry, but because it appears he then feed the boss a load of lies about the outcome of the second inquest.
Whitmarsh then made a tool of himself (and McLaren) by defending both his employees and the McLaren Organistation based on the information he had received back from an arse covering Ryan...
What's the saying - What a tangled web we weave when we set out to deceive...
#29
Guizotia
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 06:50
Originally posted by SchumiBoy
I don't understand why people are so quick to defend this scapegoat approach.
What the FIA reports from the stewards meeting is exactly the same as Whitmarsh said to the BBC
This is not a single guy going rogue as much as McLaren might like it
"At the end, under the safety car, Trulli fell off onto the grass and Lewis had no choice but to go past him, he was not on the racing circuit," the team's principal Martin Whitmarsh told the BBC.
"Trulli then re-took the place under the safety car, which ordinarily you wouldn't do so I know that the FIA are looking at it at the moment and doubtless we'll have a ruling in due course."
The bit you've highlighted is just a general summary. Trulli did re-take the place under the safety car.
But in many other places after the stewards investigation Whitmarsh says that they told Lewis to let Trulli pass.
#30
Gareth
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:05
I don't believe Whitmarsh has ever said that. Even in his statement yesterday morning, he was saying that:Originally posted by Guizotia
The bit you've highlighted is just a general summary. Trulli did re-take the place under the safety car.
But in many other places after the stewards investigation Whitmarsh says that they told Lewis to let Trulli pass.
1. Speed traces showed Hamilton did not slow when Trulli passed him
2. Telemetary showed Hamilton did a normal lap
3. Nothing in the data indicated that Hamilton had intended to let Trulli pass
Even in the face of the radio transcripts and knowledge they would be released, he was trying to create the impression Hamilton did not let Trulli pass, in order to try and maintain his bullshit position that not revealing the team order was not 'material' to the stewards decision.
His quote to the bbc is so telling as well. He goes into detail of the circumstances of Hamilton's pass on Trulli, to make it clear that pass was legal, but does not mention a thing about the circumstances of Trulli's pass on Hamilton, to try and create the impression that pass was illegal. And then rounds it off with a 'that is our position at the moment'.
I think its obvious Whitmarsh was a prime mover behind this debacle.
#31
hunnylander
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:13
Originally posted by primer
Liar Dave Ryan tarnished Mclaren and Lewis' image. Liar Dave Ryan created this controversy. Liar Dave Ryan can f*** off.
Well done Mclaren-Mercedes. They should investigate the matter and if found necessary fire Martin whitmarsh too. Too much filth.
Like it or not, if there was "mileading" by McLaren, Dave Ryan is the responsible for it not Lewis.
He was there to instruct Lewis, he was there to escort Lewis, exactly why Lewis alone can't do nothing. He only follows the instructions, completes the tasks, not just in PR, but on a hearing also.
#32
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:17
If Lewis can't stand up for himself...
#33
undersquare
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:35
If Dave Ryan has been suspended/whatever, then it can only be because on the way to the Melbourne stewards' office he told Lewis to tell the lie.
After that the team has to keeping lying and fudging to protect Lewis, because it's the team's fault.
Whitmarsh has to make an idiot of himself over and over again on worldwide TV, he would be more than furious. So would Anthony, Ron and everybody else. The team has taken a lot of damage from it. So Ryan has to go.
On the upside, if that's right then it shows lying is indeed not part of the culture at McLaren, it was one individual who set the whole thing off.
After that the team has to keeping lying and fudging to protect Lewis, because it's the team's fault.
Whitmarsh has to make an idiot of himself over and over again on worldwide TV, he would be more than furious. So would Anthony, Ron and everybody else. The team has taken a lot of damage from it. So Ryan has to go.
On the upside, if that's right then it shows lying is indeed not part of the culture at McLaren, it was one individual who set the whole thing off.
#34
SchumiBoy
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:39
Originally posted by undersquare
If Dave Ryan has been suspended/whatever, then it can only be because on the way to the Melbourne stewards' office he told Lewis to tell the lie.
After that the team has to keeping lying and fudging to protect Lewis, because it's the team's fault.
Whitmarsh has to make an idiot of himself over and over again on worldwide TV, he would be more than furious. So would Anthony, Ron and everybody else. The team has taken a lot of damage from it. So Ryan has to go.
On the upside, if that's right then it shows lying is indeed not part of the culture at McLaren, it was one individual who set the whole thing off.
and instead of setting things right they just kept on lying ... even though it's not their culture
#35
undersquare
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:44
Originally posted by SchumiBoy
and instead of setting things right they just kept on lying ... even though it's not their culture
Well yes but it's a team, Ryan has been there 30 years, their first instinct would be to tackle it as a team and stay united. By now they're regretting that I daresay but F1 is a team sport.
#36
dabrasco
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:46
Originally posted by undersquare
If Dave Ryan has been suspended/whatever, then it can only be because on the way to the Melbourne stewards' office he told Lewis to tell the lie.
After that the team has to keeping lying and fudging to protect Lewis, because it's the team's fault.
Whitmarsh has to make an idiot of himself over and over again on worldwide TV, he would be more than furious. So would Anthony, Ron and everybody else. The team has taken a lot of damage from it. So Ryan has to go.
On the upside, if that's right then it shows lying is indeed not part of the culture at McLaren, it was one individual who set the whole thing off.
yea, i think thats most likely how things panned out....one lie set up a host of lies to cover up initial lie
he wasnt fired, only suspended
#38
KiwiF1
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:47
Here's a thought, if it was Whitmarsh leading this, then perhaps Dave Ryan has left as he feels he has belittled himself by having to lie on the say so of Whitmarsh and it has now all been found out.
The joke of this is, had they met the stewards last Sunday and said "yeah we made a mistake and slowed to let Trulli retake the position" they probably would have been given the 3rd place anyway and Trulli 4th as the outcome would have been.
All this debacle over a point, which I know can decide a championship, but it has now cost them 6.
The joke of this is, had they met the stewards last Sunday and said "yeah we made a mistake and slowed to let Trulli retake the position" they probably would have been given the 3rd place anyway and Trulli 4th as the outcome would have been.
All this debacle over a point, which I know can decide a championship, but it has now cost them 6.
#39
kar
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:49
Originally posted by KiloWatt
Holy balls!!
Might this not be a *slight* overreaction on the part of McLaren? Unless there is more to this than we know, it's not THAT big an issue, surely. Teams lie all the time.
Not really, given all the dishonesty McLaren have been behind these past three seasons and the utter eviceration they got today in the papers - they had to do something.
Ryan is both responsible, and a fall-guy at the same time. Remember Ryan was behind the cool fuel nonsense at the end of 2007 as well.
This guy probably deserves a boot, but he's being booted to save higher ups from too much scrutiny too.
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#40
engel
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:50
I love it how the fanbois needed precise transcripts yesterday yet are happy to conclude Dave Ryan is the one responsible today. Because obviously he made innocent Lewis do it. Don't you need transcripts for that? Apparently not ... Yesterday the obvious needed thorough step by step proof, today the obvious just flows
#41
TickTickBooom
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:50
If it wasn't for posts like this, I would really not bother coming to this board anymore.Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
To be fair to McLaren, Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton were the only guys in the hearing and if Lewis did lie, we can deduct that either Dave Ryan continued the lie or did not correct it at the time. So they're both equally guilty for the incident.
At last the McLaren/Lewis fanboys have found someone to blame, before they even know the full story.
#42
kar
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:51
Yes it was *just* Coughlin, it was *just* Ryan.
McLaren have systemic isssues with honesty, letting these two jokers go basically seems to be to divert attention away from that fact.
Ultimately in every incident involving McLaren and a lack of honesty, Whitmarsh has been front and centre. If anyone needs to be suspended, it is him.
When he heard what Ryan and Hamilton had told the stewards he should have corrected it there and then. When he found out they had obtained Ferrari IP he should have got on the phone and called the FIA and Ferrari immediately.
But he was content to just go with the flow. That, is not good management and makes him just as responsible for what happened as anyone else.
McLaren have systemic isssues with honesty, letting these two jokers go basically seems to be to divert attention away from that fact.
Ultimately in every incident involving McLaren and a lack of honesty, Whitmarsh has been front and centre. If anyone needs to be suspended, it is him.
When he heard what Ryan and Hamilton had told the stewards he should have corrected it there and then. When he found out they had obtained Ferrari IP he should have got on the phone and called the FIA and Ferrari immediately.
But he was content to just go with the flow. That, is not good management and makes him just as responsible for what happened as anyone else.
#43
SchumiBoy
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:57
Originally posted by kar
Yes it was *just* Coughlin, it was *just* Ryan.
McLaren have systemic isssues with honesty, letting these two jokers go basically seems to be to divert attention away from that fact.
Ultimately in every incident involving McLaren and a lack of honesty, Whitmarsh has been front and centre. If anyone needs to be suspended, it is him.
When he heard what Ryan and Hamilton had told the stewards he should have corrected it there and then. When he found out they had obtained Ferrari IP he should have got on the phone and called the FIA and Ferrari immediately.
But he was content to just go with the flow. That, is not good management and makes him just as responsible for what happened as anyone else.
McLaren's biggest problem is spin. They are obsessed with spinning things in their favor.
Even Whitmarsh yesterday decided to spin an impossible situation instead of just telling the f***ing truth for once.
#44
paulm
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:59
Originally posted by engel
I love it how the fanbois needed precise transcripts yesterday yet are happy to conclude Dave Ryan is the one responsible today. Because obviously he made innocent Lewis do it. Don't you need transcripts for that? Apparently not ... Yesterday the obvious needed thorough step by step proof, today the obvious just flows
Perhaps you could identify these 'fanbois' rather than throwing out such a generic allegation?
#45
MegaManson
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:00
Sounds like Ryan is "taking one for the team"
I am sure he will get a nice little payoff along with a "bonus" to take the rap for Whitmarsh/Dennis/Hamilton
I am sure he will get a nice little payoff along with a "bonus" to take the rap for Whitmarsh/Dennis/Hamilton
#46
kar
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:01
I doubt he will even get sacked.
He will probably get a 3 month suspension or something.
He will probably get a 3 month suspension or something.
#47
ensign14
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:02
Well, it's more punishment than Whiting suffered for lying last season. Only his lies were transparent and open to the world.
#48
pRy
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:02
While I accept they're guilty of trying to cover up the true sequence of events, I'm not sure thats because they intentionally set out to cheat the system and screw people over.. I think it's more they are trying to cover up embarassing failures within the team.
This whole incident started not because Lewis broke the rules, but because McLaren were worried he would be seen to have broken the rules in passing Trulli. They paniced and called it wrong.. either because they genuinely misunderstood the regulations or because they're paranoid of the stewards punishing them again.
Either way, this whole mess began with that wrong call to Lewis. Their biggest mistake was thinking they could then cover up that smaller mistake.
In trying to be this perfect team, they've made their situation 10x worse. Had they told the stewards "Yep we asked him to move over, we were worried about being punished.. it was our mistake.", Lewis would probably still be 4th right now and Trulli would never have been punished.
I think the problems at McLaren run far deeper than individual people.. I think their whole approach to F1 needs looking at.
This whole incident started not because Lewis broke the rules, but because McLaren were worried he would be seen to have broken the rules in passing Trulli. They paniced and called it wrong.. either because they genuinely misunderstood the regulations or because they're paranoid of the stewards punishing them again.
Either way, this whole mess began with that wrong call to Lewis. Their biggest mistake was thinking they could then cover up that smaller mistake.
In trying to be this perfect team, they've made their situation 10x worse. Had they told the stewards "Yep we asked him to move over, we were worried about being punished.. it was our mistake.", Lewis would probably still be 4th right now and Trulli would never have been punished.
I think the problems at McLaren run far deeper than individual people.. I think their whole approach to F1 needs looking at.
#49
lwd
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:03
This essentially an admission of guilt and wrongdoing on McLaren's part.
#50
Enkei
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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:06
"However, his role in the events of last Sunday, particularly his dealings with the FIA stewards, has caused serious repercussions for the team, for which we apologise. Therefore, I suspended him this morning and he has accepted this."
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74180
