Davvy Ryan - Suspended or sacked?

Originally posted by plg101


Er, yes you are, at least under UK law.

Example (picked quickly, and nothing to do with this thread or sport): http://en.wikipedia..../Karen_Matthews

Another example: You leave the scene of an accident that you cause without reporting it, or waiting for the police. You later give a false statement that it was your friend in California (who doesn't exist or wasn't involved). The police will go after you for both the original crime and PCOJ.

That's where new pertaining evidence has come to light, that's not the case here.

Originally posted by plg101
they take a lot of their ethics from the regular legal system, and have a lot of very intelligent barristers and lawyers...

The FIA judges even share some of the hobbies of the regular judiciary.

Originally posted by Clatter


IMHO everyone should have been subjected to the same checks. Easy to point fingers when no one is looking at you, but I think there could have been several teams in the poo had the stewards done so. Still it's water under the bridge now.

Completely agree they should have checked everyone in this manner. It would have either bolstered the FIA's case ("you are the only people doing this") or caught out one or two other naughty teams, both of which should have been goals for a governing body.

Originally posted by Clatter


That's where new pertaining evidence has come to light, that's not the case here.

Hmm, fair point - but the CPS would prosecute as one case if all the info was available.

I think the FIA will punish Macca for lying, and punish them hard. I'm a lifelong tifosi, but I don't want to see Macca pushed out of the sport, in this case I would personally prefer a slapped wrist for them and suspended further punishment.

What might be fairer is to go back a step and allow the teams more time to review their material / evidence before being called to the stewards - all supports the transparency of information that many fans also want, but delays the ultimate result.

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Did Dave Ryan and lewis demonstrate a serious lack of transparency or did they out and out lie? Hamilton maintains he didn't 'lie' and Whitmarsh maintains that Ryan didn't tell everything. Where's the dividing line?

Yup, this is the worrying thing for Mac, I think. They are somewhere between a serious lack of transparency (their own admittance), and therefore potentially looking at BAR type penalties, and out and out fraud, and therefore potentially looking at even harsher penalties.

The only good thing in this comparison for McLaren was that there was no underlying offence, as there was for BAR.

But I think it would be a difficult argument to defeat to suggest that exclusion from the results in an Event was BAR's punishment for breaching the rules at that Event, the 2 race exclusion and suspended 6 month exclusion were their penalty for the lack of transparency.

I also agree with paulm that "If there is further punishment I think it will be target to effect the McLaren team without hurting others, including the drivers." Those seem to be the noises from the FIA at the minute. I'd therefore not be surprised to see a 2 race or more (perhaps even season long) exclusion from the constructers points for McLaren and a suspended exclusion of some kind.

The other thing I wouldn't be surprised to see would be exoneration/mere reprimand on the basis of 1 rougue employee, followed by new evidence coming to light showing Ryan (to an extent at least) acted on instruction from someone else in the team, leading to the book being thrown at McLaren. It would fit the pattern of: "clear them at the first hearing, whilst giving them enough rope to hang themselves at a second" established by Spygate and Liegate (can never have too many gates, I'd love it if Watergate was renamed Watergategate).

come on guys, that's the same team that
a) said they know nothing about ferrari's ip and they will cooperate to prove it
b) said that the material was not spread, it was something isolated
c) said they apologize for the material being spread across the organization after the emails were found.

There is no line between truth and lie.....they will move this line according to what you know...you know nothing it's a)...you found out something then it's b)...you find out more it becomes a c)....

obviously there is a huge risk involved...how confident are you about being proven?
there are things that can be proven EASILY...and they were dumb fcucks to lie in such a case.
there are things you cannot prove...ever.....can somebody prove ms parked his car there on purpose? we all know he did it, but..can't prove it....
what if he said on the radio something like "yeah, this should do it"...because this is exactly what mclaren have done..they have lied in a situation were proof was available

Once again, McLaren will try to defend themselves by claiming it was an act of an individual. McLaren is now trying everything possible to look like they are doing the right things to clean up, but Spygate is in fresh memory. It would have been better if McLaren would have stood by Ryan, saying the mistake was the responsibility of the team. Problem is, I don't think they have a story to present that is congruent with anything after the lies of Ryan, Hamilton and Whitmarsh. If they would tell the truth now, they would certainly look like they delibaretly tried to mislead the stewards and also, that they tried to cover up their lies afterwards. Come to think about it, I believe McLaren is in deep ****. Wouldn't it be becuase the sport is in dire need of every team on the grid, McLaren would be gone. Anyways, McLaren was very happy with the third place, more people than Ryan and Hamilton must have been in the know about what really went on, and thus, the team is totally responsible for this mistake, not only Ryan.

You guys are talking it up way too much - i think a reprimand will be at most what McMerc receive with a "Please keep your house in order" tag attached... This isn't anything like BAR's fuel tank - it's far more like Rasscasgate of 2006 - with a bit of fuel filter gate of 1994 thrown in....

Rogue employee lieing to the FIA & to his team also (who then backed him up as they would do). Lets not forget this happened immediately after the race... Was there really time for a big all line management conspiracy to take place? And if so why did Norbert and Whitmarsh give the game away whilst they were in the stewards meeting????

If Ryan comes before the FIA and says "yes govner t'was all my doing" then that'll be the end of it - he'll prob be able to stay employed at McMerc (just not on the race team). I hope he makes a cracking cuppa....

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
come on guys, that's the same team that
a) said they know nothing about ferrari's ip and they will cooperate to prove it
b) said that the material was not spread, it was something isolated
c) said they apologize for the material being spread across the organization after the emails were found.

As opposed to what?
a) The team whose principal said that McLaren should be punished heavily.
b) The team that was subsequently found to have McLaren IP in their computers.
c) The team that had disseminated this information around all it's main engineering team.
d) The team who suddenly apologised only when they were found out.
e) The team who said they didn't make use of the information anyway.
f) The team who magically appeared with their own version of the McLaren J-damper half way through the next season.

Some perspective is needed. McLaren is guilty. It is guilty of being found out.

Originally posted by Buttoneer


As opposed to what?
a) The team whose principal said that McLaren should be punished heavily.
b) The team that was subsequently found to have McLaren IP in their computers.
c) The team that had disseminated this information around all it's main engineering team.
d) The team who suddenly apologised only when they were found out.
e) The team who said they didn't make use of the information anyway.
f) The team who magically appeared with their own version of the McLaren J-damper half way through the next season.

Some perspective is needed. McLaren is guilty. It is guilty of being found out.

Good old Benetton/Renault...

Goes to show nothing changes....;)

Originally posted by Mika Mika
You guys are talking it up way too much - i think a reprimand will be at most what McMerc receive with a "Please keep your house in order" tag attached... This isn't anything like BAR's fuel tank - it's far more like Rasscasgate of 2006 - with a bit of fuel filter gate of 1994 thrown in....

Rogue employee lieing to the FIA & to his team also (who then backed him up as they would do). Lets not forget this happened immediately after the race... Was there really time for a big all line management conspiracy to take place? And if so why did Norbert and Whitmarsh give the game away whilst they were in the stewards meeting????

If Ryan comes before the FIA and says "yes govner t'was all my doing" then that'll be the end of it - he'll prob be able to stay employed at McMerc (just not on the race team). I hope he makes a cracking cuppa....

Genrally I agree with all you say providing there is nothing more to it. We know what happened the last time McLaren told us it was a rogue employee acting without the knowledge of senior management.

http://timesonline.t...-whitmarsh.html

McLaren being caught lying through the actions of Ryan and Hamilton is one thing; if it turns out that they have properly scapegoated Ryan and lied again about who knew about what was going on, I would fear for the consequences on their behalf. The FIA is not going to like that at all. The Times does in fact have an admission of sorts on this issue but it would be improper to report it here at this stage .

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
come on guys, that's the same team that
a) said they know nothing about ferrari's ip and they will cooperate to prove it
b) said that the material was not spread, it was something isolated
c) said they apologize for the material being spread across the organization after the emails were found.

It´s also the team that currently employs three top technical managers who have each been fined 150,000 euros each by an Italian court for intellectual property theft.

Too much bad sh&t has happened between McLaren and the FIA in the last few years and I for one think that they will use this situation to force McLaren to clean house, which is not necessarily a bad thing if at least they will be kept on the grid.

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Genrally I agree with all you say providing there is nothing more to it. We know what happened the last time McLaren told us it was a rogue employee acting without the knowledge of senior management.

http://timesonline.t...-whitmarsh.html

Exactly my point. This has moved beyond the lie told by Ryan and Hamilton. The real danger for McLaren is if they tried to cover up who knew what inside their organisation. Doesn't look good. Gorman asks all the right questions.

Originally posted by JPW

Too much bad sh&t has happened between McLaren and the FIA in the last few years and I for one think that they will use this situation to force McLaren to clean house, which is not necessarily a bad thing if at least they will be kept on the grid.

It is a bad thing because the FIA should have no power whatsoever to enforce changes within the staffing of a team.

To repeat my earlier point, all teams push the limits of the rules at all levels of motorsport.

It is naive to think they don't, which makes this who storm in a teacup all the more ridiculous.

Take NASCAR. It seems a month doesn't go by without a crew cheif being suspended for pushing or breaking the rules.

Meaning almost all the teams are doing it.

Originally posted by potmotr


It is a bad thing because the FIA should have no power whatsoever to enforce changes within the staffing of a team.

Agreed, but they will go as far as to publically recommend against working with individuals; which can't help on the old career prospects.

Originally posted by the FIA
On March 7, 2008 the FIA issued a statement urging teams and those holding FIA issued licenses not to hire Nigel Stepney "Without conducting appropriate due diligence regarding his suitability for involvement in international motor sport".
RECOMMENDATION RE: NIGEL STEPNEY 07.03.2008
In its investigations of last year regarding the unauthorised use of intellectual property within Formula One, the FIA heard allegations that Mr. Nigel Stepney, then employed by Ferrari, had passed confidential Ferrari information to an employee of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes. Mr. Stepney has admitted this allegation and apologised to the FIA, though he disputes the seriousness and extent of his involvement. As Mr. Stepney is not a licence-holder of the FIA, no formal action may be taken against him under the International Sporting Code (though the FIA is co-operating with the Italian police, who are investigating Mr. Stepney's actions). As a matter of good order, the FIA recommends to its licensees that they do not professionally collaborate with Mr. Stepney without conducting appropriate due diligence regarding his suitability for involvement in international motor sport. This recommendation stands until 1 July 2009.

Without wanting to pollute this thread with an anti-Mosley rant...

..I find the concept of a man who lied and misled his own wife for more than three decades being a beacon for the protection of honestly totally ridiculous.

And don't forget Mosley told his privacy case against the News of the World that he didn't have his email to the head hooker (where he specified his perverted desires for his Nazi orgy) because he'd deleted it due to his computer not having enough memory.

Not enough memory? I mean, if that isn't a blatant lie and first class piece of perjury, what is?

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Genrally I agree with all you say providing there is nothing more to it. We know what happened the last time McLaren told us it was a rogue employee acting without the knowledge of senior management.

http://timesonline.t...-whitmarsh.html

Well why I think it was just a rogue this time is there simply wasn't the time to organize a mass conspiracy... It was straight after the race - Whist Ryan and Spam were int he stewards office getting grilled Norbert was telling the world something different as had Spam already (and maybe even Whitmarsh)....

They way I see it, McMerc are gonna rely on Ryan coming clean... Depending on how Whitmarsh fired/sacked/suspend him. Will come into that...

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Good old Benetton/Renault...

Goes to show nothing changes....;)

"No, we don't have traction control."

"What's this then?"

"Oh, well we have traction control on the car, but we never used it..."

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Well why I think it was just a rogue this time is there simply wasn't the time to organize a mass conspiracy... It was straight after the race - Whist Ryan and Spam were int he stewards office getting grilled Norbert was telling the world something different as had Spam already (and maybe even Whitmarsh)....

They way I see it, McMerc are gonna rely on Ryan coming clean... Depending on how Whitmarsh fired/sacked/suspend him. Will come into that...

Dont imagine the board room meeting, it could have been a radio conversation a quick word in the pits, it would only take a couple of minutes to come up with a plan/defence, they had over an hour from when the race ended to when they had to be in the stewards office. Sorry butI cannot accept the fact that in that time (in fact from when the pass under the SC happened) no one in the team discussed the matter except for the split second decision Ryan made just before the meeting to lie and tell only Lewis about it.

IIRC we must remember that in that time Whitmarsh told the press the events as he saw them - the lie version. How did he come by that version - not by listening to the events on the radio as they unfolded.

Originally posted by potmotr
Without wanting to pollute this thread with an anti-Mosley rant...

..I find the concept of a man who lied and misled his own wife for more than three decades being a beacon for the protection of honestly totally ridiculous.

And don't forget Mosley told his privacy case against the News of the World that he didn't have his email to the head hooker (where he specified his perverted desires for his Nazi orgy) because he'd deleted it due to his computer not having enough memory.

Not enough memory? I mean, if that isn't a blatant lie and first class piece of perjury, what is?

Spot on.
I personally think McLaren paid someone to get some dirt on Mosley because of all the grief they had from him, i bet they could believe their luck!
Jackie Stewart isn't keen either and he's a sound bloke.
I think as long as Mosley is the the sport McLaren won't be done any favours. Basically Mosley hates Ron and everyone else.

Originally posted by potmotr
It is a bad thing because the FIA should have no power whatsoever to enforce changes within the staffing of a team.

Dunno but I do think that there's something fundamentaly wrong with the staffing of a team when a member of senior staff is caught with 700 pages of a competitors docs, three technical managers were fined 150,000 euros each by an Italian court for intellectual property theft and now the team manager and star driver have been caught lying to the stewards.

Obviously McLaren has been unwilling to clean house themselves so I won't mind the WMSC forcing them too.

Originally posted by potmotr
To repeat my earlier point, all teams push the limits of the rules at all levels of motorsport.

And that's fine by me, however McLaren have taken it a bit too far. On top of that they've been way too antagonistic in their dealings with the FIA and in the way they've played the powerfull british press when fighting with the FIA.

You can't do that for too long without repercussions.

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Dont imagine the board room meeting, it could have been a radio conversation a quick word in the pits, it would only take a couple of minutes to come up with a plan/defence, they had over an hour from when the race ended to when they had to be in the stewards office. Sorry butI cannot accept the fact that in that time (in fact from when the pass under the SC happened) no one in the team discussed the matter except for the split second decision Ryan made just before the meeting to lie and tell only Lewis about it.

IIRC we must remember that in that time Whitmarsh told the press the events as he saw them - the lie version. How did he come by that version - not by listening to the events on the radio as they unfolded.

Im not so sure - i dont think whitmarsh told the press anything untoward afterward until after the stewards meeting - I might be wrong. To me it seems a lot easier to enplane it as a rough than as a conspiracy... Especially as Norbert and Hamilton were already saying something different to the press...

As I said earlier a conspiracy would be something of rascassgate proportions however that ended in nothing....

Originally posted by JPW

Dunno but I do think that there's something fundamentaly wrong with the staffing of a team when a member of senior staff is caught with 700 pages of a competitors docs, three technical managers were fined 150,000 euros each by an Italian court for intellectual property theft and now the team manager and star driver have been caught lying to the stewards.

Yes, but in both cases we're not talking about anything new.

Teams have been stealing each other's ideas for many, many years.

Do you think Adrian Newey would have left Leyton House for Williams, then Williams for McLaren, then McLaren for Red Bull Racing without having a swag of knowledge stashed away somewhere?

That's the whole reasons teams post staff, for their knowledge. It is as old as the sport itself.

As for lying to the stewards, again it is as old as the sport.

The awful thing for McLaren is that the situation is being manipulated so the impression is they've committed some massive crime. And that's just wrong.

I don't believe that there is a culture of lies within McLaren. Rather, it is a culture of always being right, having an immaculate facade, and a self image that is blown out of proportions that creates these problems. I think Ron Dennis is a genuinely honest person. In Spygate, he prolly had the intention to clean house without anybody else knowing and stretched the truth a bit too far, counting that his word would be enough. It wasn't. There probably is a culture within McLaren that doesn't promote honesty in the sense that admitting to a mistake is almost impossible. It taints the facade. People are afraid of making mistakes and when it happens they try to place the blame somewhere else. I would rather describe it as a culture of fear rather than lies, but it is a culture that promotes lies as a way of surviving inside the organisation. Hell, what is Ron-speak other than avoiding telling the truth. If the big boss can speak straight, why would the rest of the staff do so.

Dave Ryan did what he thought was the right thing, clearly in hindsight it was fundamentally, very seriously, wrong. As far as I can see, he wanted to ensure Lewis got a race position that (in his opinion) he thought Lewis had earned. To me, it shows that he was a blinded by his commitment and support for Lewis and didn't take a step back and realise that it's not his place to make these kind of decisions and it is in fact, totally unsporting and unfair. The decision to suspend him was correct in my opinion.

Originally posted by Owen
The decision to suspend him was correct in my opinion.

Sure, and he should perhaps be suspended for perhaps the rest of this month then resume duties.

And McLaren should be slapped with a $50,000 fine for being bad boys (like RBR was for ordered Vettel to trying an finish the race on three wheels).

After that, a line should be drawn under the whole incident.

The response has been totally disproporionate.

Originally posted by potmotr


Sure, and he should perhaps be suspended for perhaps the rest of this month then resume duties.

And McLaren should be slapped with a $50,000 fine for being bad boys (like RBR was for ordered Vettel to trying an finish the race on three wheels).

After that, a line should be drawn under the whole incident.

The response has been totally disproporionate.

Agreed. The FIA are trying to use this incident suggest a much wider 'culture of dishonesty' at McLaren though.

Originally posted by potmotr

The awful thing for McLaren is that the situation is being manipulated so the impression is they've committed some massive crime. And that's just wrong.

Why can't we just have racing and save all this purse bashing? If the FIA just did their job to start with all of this could be avoided. If I wanted to watch soap operas I would. I don't I have that crap!

Having said that if I were Mercedes I'd be all over McLaren AND the FIA.

Originally posted by potmotr


Schumacher did much worse throughout his career.

Bullshit . Even if it was true , he's never been tossed under the bus.

Bus is here
Davy is here

End of story

BBC ticker reporting Ryan is gone.

Originally posted by ensign14
BBC ticker reporting Ryan is gone.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/74348

Originally posted by potmotr
The awful thing for McLaren is that the situation is being manipulated so the impression is they've committed some massive crime. And that's just wrong.

You either lie or not lie. If you lie, you have no place in the table and you can walk out.

Well we now know the answer.

SACKED

Since when did F1 become a politically correct corporation? Chapman or Tyrell would have just given him a kick up and arse, called Ryan all the names under the sun and then just got on with the job of winning races.

As for the further action by the FIA, I'm sure the reasons behind the FIA's vendetta against McLaren are a lot more interesting than the liegate dispute itself. I'd like to hear them.

I think it's really chicken **** that Dave Ryan takes this hit.

I have to say that they really sacked him is, to me, by far the most disappointing thing they did in the last two weeks.

They may think it will help their case, but it certainly won't.

Originally posted by micra_k10

You either lie or not lie. If you lie, you have no place in the table and you can walk out.

Perspective, again. There's a reason you're not allowed to kill someone just because he gave you a little cuff.

And I'm not only referring to the FIA blowing the case out of all proportions, but even more so to Mclaren sacking an employee that has been with them even since before RD took over the team.

Originally posted by Bob Nomates


Hamilton has never ever told a lie before he was totally upset and may now walk away from the sport forever!

Maybe he can then pursue another career envisioning himself as a God.

Originally posted by as65p
They may think it will help their case, but it certainly won't.

It won't help them because M. Whitmarsh has himself been involved in lying.

It is entirely possible that to lie and cover up might have been Ryan's idea. But Whitmarsh ran with it and that is just as serious lapse of judgement and character. Ron should have intervened, fired Whitmarsh and (privately) reprimanded Ryan.

But then Whitmarsh is a pet project of Ron's......so the wrong guy got fired.

The pic above is a perfect example of what large corporations get wrong.

They assume their wonderful PR and marketing machines are so perfect, when in actual fact it makes them look like prats.

They manipulate and lie behind the scenes, which is fine by them unless they get caught and it damages their image. Really, this has been blown out of all proportions because McLaren & co. cannot afford to have their prize asset branded a liar, it's a PR disaster with wires on.

So now that McLaren have sacked such a talented and loyal team member, for political reasons, they look even more stupid.

Can McLaren's season get any worse?

Davey Ryan is a good bastard - straight as, the way most Kiwis are.

Originally posted by BrawnsBrain
Can McLaren's season get any worse?

Let's wait until April 29... And "partner" Mercedes is none too happy with all this (on top of the economy situation)...

Originally posted by micra_k10

You either lie or not lie. If you lie, you have no place in the table and you can walk out.

I'm sorry, I find that completely naive. In the context of motorsport they all lie and bend the rules as much as they can get away with.

methinks Ferrari (or any team really) would do well to scoop him up pronto & plug him in for next season. He could be a real assett.

Originally posted by Craven Morehead
methinks Ferrari (or any team really) would do well to scoop him up pronto & plug him in for next season. He could be a real assett.

Familiar with this term?

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Garden_leave

On a personal note, as a Kiwi, I think it is totally tragic Dave Ryan has been sacked.

McLaren were, originally, a New Zealand team, and many Kiwis have worked there through the years.

Cutting Ryan after 35 years is eliminating another link to McLaren's true heritage.

Nice on Max. You c**t.

Originally posted by peroa


Familiar with this term?

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Garden_leave

Erm yes, which is why I specifically said "for next season". Trouble with your glasses today?

Originally posted by as65p
And I'm not only referring to the FIA blowing the case out of all proportions, but even more so to Mclaren sacking an employee that has been with them even since before RD took over the team.

The FIA's farcical actions have left them no choice.

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
The FIA's farcical actions have left them no choice.

Right, when in doubt blame the FIA

Lewis lied, Dave Ryan lied, McLaren fumbled but it's the FIA who's to blame