The 'Golden Days' of CART

It would be great to have a thread to rejoice about the 1990-2001 era of CART where all the best teams took part, and the title gave international fame, as well as beuing the ultimate challenge in motorsport. To win it you had to master at least one 500 mile race at a monster track, stay on track at Toronto, Surfers Paradise and Long Beach, keep the patience at Milwaukee and Gateway, and letting it rip at Road America and Cleveland! Really great days! The split hurt it of course, but remember that the first years of US 500 were well attended, and there were some real close racing, just like the 1998 race where the legendary Greg Moore wan an inch battle over the superior Ganassis. Just imagine the reigning F1 World Champion going to IndyCar today? That's imposdsible. But we have to keep these days in our memories, and hope that IndyCar can reach those levels again in the next decade! I'd love pictures and memories of classic races, such as the Pass at Laguna et cetera!

They were truly wonderful years. We got to see some of the worlds greatest still racing and winning. Mario, Emerson....Nigel, Alex Z .... Then there was Indy ...Guerrero - 232 mph, Luyendyk - 236 mph. Tracks like Elkhart Lake - the Clevland airstrip where some turns took 4 cars wide. Memories!

1999 and "that new kid" Juan Montoya was fun for me. Although I'd say the Golden Days would also include going back into the 1980s...

Originally posted by stevewf1
1999 and "that new kid" Juan Montoya was fun for me. Although I'd say the Golden Days would also include going back into the 1980s...

Well, that's also possible, the expansion was certainly great back then, although the days of 230 mph side by side battles at Michigan were solely in the 90's which makes it my favourite years Sadly the series died the day when Penske signed for IRL. After that it was straight down : Anyway, we've got to accept it for what it is and stand by George now, a bit like forgiving war criminals when they've got the power back

Originally posted by stevewf1
Although I'd say the Golden Days would also include going back into the 1980s...

Me too, but otherwise I agree totally - the best Motor Racing I ever saw, season after season, beautiful cars, made by different constructors, several makes of engine and some terrific circuits! I miss it...

Several regular posters on here could give a lot of meat to this thread - here's hoping...

fully agree - only did one almost full season (1988) , absolutely terrific. At that time like F1 in the '70's in many ways, but with a wonderfully eclectic mix of tracks (and people!)

peter

Originally posted by jeze


Sadly the series died the day when Penske signed for IRL. :

Don't forget why Penske went for IRL.
If Target-Ganassi had not gone to Indy in 2000 first, things should have gone entirely different.
Ganassi at Indy2000 is the decisive point in the entire war and the turning point for the entire CARTIRL war.


On Topic: I dare to include the 80's as well, it was a fantastic series back then but regrettably, for an American Series, it had too less participation of American drivers and constructors compared with NASCAR.
pity that the few American chassi builders that tried never were very lucky.


Henri

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



Don't forget why Penske went for IRL.
If Target-Ganassi had not gone to Indy in 2000 first, things should have gone entirely different.
Ganassi at Indy2000 is the decisive point in the entire war and the turning point for the entire CARTIRL war.


On Topic: I dare to include the 80's as well, it was a fantastic series back then but regrettably, for an American Series, it had too less participation of American drivers and constructors compared with NASCAR.
pity that the few American chassi builders that tried never were very lucky.


Henri

You have a very good point in that, but at the same time CART still looked strong with lots of spectators and a very diverse calendar, and until Penske signed for IRL nobody had bothered taking that final step, since there was no reason. Th Penske switch made people consider what the 500 menat for them, and unfortunately that was the end of the CART saga. Anothyer big mistake Champ Car later made was to completely drop the ovals from action. Even though most ovals switched to IndyCar, there were still tremendous oval like Pocono, New Hampshire, Atlanta, Charlotte and possibly even Daytona, that were unused by Champ Car, making the series to lose its position as the most diverse championship. The latter years it was like ALMS in open wheelers and shorter races, simply no entertainment. It also meant a whole lot that American drivers were in minority, and in the end only foreigners competed for victories. Look at the driver roster for 2001 in the top teams:

Penske
Gil de Ferran, Brazil
Hélio Castroneves, Brazil

Ganassi
Bruno Junqueira, Brazil

Newman Haas
Christian Fittipaldi, Brazil
Christiano da Matta, Brazil

Rahal Letterman
Kenny Bräck, Sweden
Max Papis, Italy

Forsythe
Patrick Carpentier, Canada
Alex Tagliani, Canada

Green
Dario Fanchitti, UK
Paul Tracy, Canada
Michael Andretti, USA

Add Dixon, Zanardi, Kanaan and lots of other guys to that and you see the problem. 10 of 31 drivers during that season were Brazilians, and only 7 form the USA. The Americans want to see compatriots fight for titles, and when there were only foreigners left, the headed for NASCAR (a series with only a couple of foreign race winners ever). That was the biggest factor, as far as I'm concerned.

"Several regular posters on here could give a lot of meat to this thread - here's hoping..." PeterElleray

I've been contributing photos & memories of my 13) year run as a CART corner marshall (road/street courses)/ observer (ovals) to many various CART themed threads, I feel as if many would be repetitious. I probably have bored you all enough already. I'm currently without scanner, so my photo contributions have been in limbo for a while too. I'll definitely try to add what I can. Without a doubt, it was a great period of time for myself and the crew that I travelled with. I feel blessed to have been a small part of this great period of American racing history.

Brian

Originally posted by jeze


You have a very good point in that, but at the same time CART still looked strong with lots of spectators and a very diverse calendar, and until Penske signed for IRL nobody had bothered taking that final step, since there was no reason. Th Penske switch made people consider what the 500 menat for them, and unfortunately that was the end of the CART saga. Anothyer big mistake Champ Car later made was to completely drop the ovals from action. Even though most ovals switched to IndyCar, there were still tremendous oval like Pocono, New Hampshire, Atlanta, Charlotte and possibly even Daytona, that were unused by Champ Car, making the series to lose its position as the most diverse championship. The latter years it was like ALMS in open wheelers and shorter races, simply no entertainment. It also meant a whole lot that American drivers were in minority, and in the end only foreigners competed for victories. Look at the driver roster for 2001 in the top teams:

Penske
Gil de Ferran, Brazil
Hélio Castroneves, Brazil

Ganassi
Bruno Junqueira, Brazil

Newman Haas
Christian Fittipaldi, Brazil
Christiano da Matta, Brazil

Rahal Letterman
Kenny Bräck, Sweden
Max Papis, Italy

Forsythe
Patrick Carpentier, Canada
Alex Tagliani, Canada

Green
Dario Fanchitti, UK
Paul Tracy, Canada
Michael Andretti, USA

Add Dixon, Zanardi, Kanaan and lots of other guys to that and you see the problem. 10 of 31 drivers during that season were Brazilians, and only 7 form the USA. The Americans want to see compatriots fight for titles, and when there were only foreigners left, the headed for NASCAR (a series with only a couple of foreign race winners ever). That was the biggest factor, as far as I'm concerned.

the saturaton with Brazilians and other foreigners as well as dropping ovals was a factor for sure.
The Penske factor that I meant:

Had Ganassi not gone to Indy in 2000, then I think that Penske had not gone one year later as well and then leaving the series.
IF Ganassi had not shown how important Indy was, how weak IRL was that their top event was there for the take if you committed to it, it may have been a bit different story and taken more time before the CART teams went over to IRL after all.
Penske lives for Indy and as long as none of his buddies he was associated with went over to race there either, I believe he accepted missing it, together with his partners in CART.
But once one of them went for Indy glory he felt no longer obliged to stay away anymore and that was it.


Henri

Originally posted by jeze
You have a very good point in that, but at the same time CART still looked strong with lots of spectators and a very diverse calendar, and until Penske signed for IRL nobody had bothered taking that final step, since there was no reason. Th Penske switch made people consider what the 500 menat for them, and unfortunately that was the end of the CART saga. Anothyer big mistake Champ Car later made was to completely drop the ovals from action. Even though most ovals switched to IndyCar, there were still tremendous oval like Pocono, New Hampshire, Atlanta, Charlotte and possibly even Daytona, that were unused by Champ Car, making the series to lose its position as the most diverse championship.

That is how it felt to me, not to belittle the other teams, but as long as Penske Racing were involved there was a chance for CART, as soon as they left it spelt doom. And I loved the mix of circiuts, from cramped city centres to sweeping high-speed circuits like Road America, short ovals and the Super Speedways. However, without Indianapolis the sponsors were always going to niggle - and who can blame them.

Originally posted by B Squared
"Several regular posters on here could give a lot of meat to this thread - here's hoping..." PeterElleray

I've been contributing photos & memories of my 13) year run as a CART corner marshall (road/street courses)/ observer (ovals) to many various CART themed threads, I feel as if many would be repetitious. I probably have bored you all enough already. I'm currently without scanner, so my photo contributions have been in limbo for a while too. I'll definitely try to add what I can. Without a doubt, it was a great period of time for myself and the crew that I travelled with. I feel blessed to have been a small part of this great period of American racing history.

Brian

Brian - i doubt very much indeed if you've bored anybody! When you are up and running i feel that you should post anything relevant, regardless of where its been seen before. I wasnt aiming my initial remark specifically at your posts btw, we have designers, engineers, drivers and mechanics also on TNF, i'd love to sit and watch this one, unfortunately i cant contribute a great deal to it myself...

except perhaps the story of how ludwig heimrath's right rear wheel presented itself - alone, and rolling rather slowly and somewhat unsteadily towards the pit entrance on the exit of turn 4 at indianapolis , whilst the rest of the car, with lud in it, sat steaming and smoking between 3 & 4, a total wreck..

later..

Peter

I'm sure I remember reading that primary sponsor Marlboro had something to say about Penske returning to Indy in 2001...

"I wasnt aiming my initial remark specifically at your posts btw, we have designers, engineers, drivers and mechanics also on TNF" PeterElleray

Trust me, I understand I'm lower than whale $%!# on the pecking order of TNF. Until Nigel Beresford & others check in, the lowly marshall has a say....(tongue in cheek)

Brian

Originally posted by stevewf1
I'm sure I remember reading that primary sponsor Marlboro had something to say about Penske returning to Indy in 2001...

You can't blame the sponsors, as I said. Who would cheerfully miss the opportunity of the pageant and exposure of such a massive (in the USA) event? And didn't several teams, including Penske, enter cars just for Indy, whilst still competing in the CART series, prior to jumping ship? I was under the impression that they were told that if they wanted to compete at Indy they had to enter for the series - but I'm under a lot of impressions...

I believe the problem was they couldn't run a fag money sponsor in both series, something to do with US laws at the time, so first they did CART and only Indy "on the side", but without Marlboro. Who didn't like it, of course - one race at Indy is still a lot better than a whole CART schedule, so in order to get Marlboro to Indy, they had to find a new sponsor for CART, or drop it...

Originally posted by B Squared
"I wasnt aiming my initial remark specifically at your posts btw, we have designers, engineers, drivers and mechanics also on TNF" PeterElleray

Trust me, I understand I'm lower than whale $%!# on the pecking order of TNF. Until Nigel Beresford & others check in, the lowly marshall has a say....(tongue in cheek)

Brian

Brian - i dont think there's a pecking order on TNF, thats a large part of its attraction. My remark was meant to convey something else. except ive forgotten what it was now, and its not my thread anyway... you'll have a different perspective than Nigel and the others, so go for it!

rgds

Peter

Originally posted by fines
I believe the problem was they couldn't run a fag money sponsor in both series, something to do with US laws at the time, so first they did CART and only Indy "on the side", but without Marlboro. Who didn't like it, of course - one race at Indy is still a lot better than a whole CART schedule, so in order to get Marlboro to Indy, they had to find a new sponsor for CART, or drop it...

That was certainly the press line - we need Nigel B to fill us in on this if possible dont we?;)

That'd be the law too. Each company was allowed one sponsorship from all their brands. So since Kool (BAT) were in CART, sister brand Lucky Strike couldn't be on the BAR's at the US GP. Even the Ferraris ran without their Marlboro because they were already at Penske. West, Gauloises, etc, anyone who didn't sell in America basically; ran whatever they wanted at US GP as their 'one' sponsorship.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
That'd be the law too. Each company was allowed one sponsorship from all their brands. So since Kool (BAT) were in CART, sister brand Lucky Strike couldn't be on the BAR's at the US GP. Even the Ferraris ran without their Marlboro because they were already at Penske. West, Gauloises, etc, anyone who didn't sell in America basically; ran whatever they wanted at US GP as their 'one' sponsorship.

Interesting - I wasn't aware of this. It explains a lot, looking back.

I remember that the engine plenum row, which CART did not handle very well, upset Honda who quit the CART series and went to IRL causing Penske and others to move over.

I think Toyota announced first they would be building engines to the IRL spec starting in year with the hint being CART should adopt that formula if it wanted to keep them around, and Honda wanting to battle with Toyota as well as the turbo rules problem definitely forced the hand of the Japanese.

My first recollection of CART was watching an hours highlights of the 1988 (or '89?) Indy 500, on the BBC's 'Grandstand', as an 11 year old. I had never seen any live Indycar racing before and I was blown away by the atmosphere, the excitement and the sheer speed of the racing. I only got a real appreciation of the sport when Mansell joined the championship for '93, and ITV showed highlights of every race.

From the first round at Surfers Paradise I was hooked, in terms of excitement it blew away the GP season, with its ABS/TC/active suspension cars that appeared bolted to the ground in comparison with the Indycars that had H-pattern gearboxes and more power than a Williams Renault at the time.

I didnt get to see a race in the flesh until the series came over to Rockingham, UK in 2001 for the Rockingham 500 (actually ended up being the Rockingham 365 or similar, after rain delays in the morning!). I thought, considering it was barely weeks after 9/11, that the teams put on a great show, even though their thoughts (and everyone elses around that time) inevitably were elsewhere. From the pickup trucks with jet engines on the back to dry the track, to the accesibility of the pits and paddock, I thought it was great, even though the crowd attendance was low. But I witnessed a fantastic race finish with Gill de Ferran passing Kenny Brack on the last corner of the last lap right in front of me!

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



Don't forget why Penske went for IRL.
If Target-Ganassi had not gone to Indy in 2000 first, things should have gone entirely different.
Ganassi at Indy2000 is the decisive point in the entire war and the turning point for the entire CARTIRL war.




Henri

Penske WAS at Indy in 2000. His United Auto Group, sponsored Jason Leffler, (a Penske prospect) in a Treadway entry. Rick Mears and Tim Cindric worked with Leffler.

Originally posted by stevewf1
I'm sure I remember reading that primary sponsor Marlboro had something to say about Penske returning to Indy in 2001...

Yeah, I read that at the time as well, they wanted to be exposed at the 500, and the laws back then allowed for tobacco sponsorship by a brand in one series, thus giving Roger no choice but to shift series. The economy was imbalanced at the time as well, and a new big sponsor would've been hard to find.

Originally posted by jeze
The economy was imbalanced at that time as well,

At THAT time ....??
Tom

Originally posted by RA Historian
At THAT time ....??
Tom

I'm an 18 year old foreigner My mistake!

Originally posted by Gerr


Penske WAS at Indy in 2000. His United Auto Group, sponsored Jason Leffler, (a Penske prospect) in a Treadway entry. Rick Mears and Tim Cindric worked with Leffler.

OK.
Learned something.

Henri

well this is my first post here so I will write about something beautiful.

For me personally 1995 was the best cart season ever, it was my second season of close following and the first few races just blew me away.
After seeing 1994 and the Penske dominance, the beggining of 1995 was immensly refreshing. Five races, five different winners! And not only that but the pattern repeated for next 4 races(JV,PT,RG,AU,EF -only EF missing out in the 10 race to make the perfect pattern)
The season begun at miami street circuit, a lot of fresh but already well known drivers arrived C.Fittipaldi(F1), G.deFerran(F3000), and almost all of the previous years front runners stayed.
At the beggining of the season Michael Andretti looked set for taking the title, but he managed to spoil almost every rece in the first half of 1995, Penske looked more vunerable than 1994, but still winning and contending for WDC, and of course J.Villeneuve taking title with superb point collecting strategy.
It was the last year they ran Indy500 as well, and what Indy it was! The winner had to race over 505 miles to win it! The field was wery sound, lot of different chassis; Reynards, Lolas, Penskes (both new and last year model), different tyres; Goodyear, Firestone, and engines; mighty but still not yet fully developed Honda, driveable and relieable Cosworths and Mercedeses and of course that Buick monstrosity in the back of Menards!
And the most important nobody was seriously hurt. (sadly, something that will occur a year later on a frequent note:( )


1995 was a great season I am so lucky that I remember those days.

Originally posted by brabhamBT19
well this is my first post here so I will write about something beautiful.

For me personally 1995 was the best cart season ever, it was my second season of close following and the first few races just blew me away.
After seeing 1994 and the Penske dominance, the beggining of 1995 was immensly refreshing. Five races, five different winners! And not only that but the pattern repeated for next 4 races(JV,PT,RG,AU,EF -only EF missing out in the 10 race to make the perfect pattern)
The season begun at miami street circuit, a lot of fresh but already well known drivers arrived C.Fittipaldi(F1), G.deFerran(F3000), and almost all of the previous years front runners stayed.
At the beggining of the season Michael Andretti looked set for taking the title, but he managed to spoil almost every rece in the first half of 1995, Penske looked more vunerable than 1994, but still winning and contending for WDC, and of course J.Villeneuve taking title with superb point collecting strategy.
It was the last year they ran Indy500 as well, and what Indy it was! The winner had to race over 505 miles to win it! The field was wery sound, lot of different chassis; Reynards, Lolas, Penskes (both new and last year model), different tyres; Goodyear, Firestone, and engines; mighty but still not yet fully developed Honda, driveable and relieable Cosworths and Mercedeses and of course that Buick monstrosity in the back of Menards!
And the most important nobody was seriously hurt. (sadly, something that will occur a year later on a frequent note:( )


1995 was a great season I am so lucky that I remember those days.

1995 seems to me as a fantastic season, I'm a bid saddened that I was too young those days : After that it's never been the same again!

http://www.chogan.co...re-forsythe.jpg

Look how beautiful car the Forsythe was!

Indeed... Those light blue cars were something to be behold. And they pretty much ran with Canadian drivers all the time - Villeneuve, Moore, Tracy, Tagliani... Quite a refreshing sight. Those are still one of my all-time favourites.

i'm not a big indycar expert, i started watching when Mansell went accross and kind of got a taste for it, i've always had an itch about their self destruction though after having read Ecclestones biography 'Bernies Game'.

it states that any class of racing that threatened the dominance of F1 during the 80's was killed, if you want the details of the argument you'll have to read the book i'm afraid, my memories not that good.

It got me wondering though, during the mid 90's Indycar was recieving unprecedented levels of press attention in europe which was F1's heartland at the time. Dedicated F1 magazines were giving more coverage, doing side by side comparisons of the cars, discussing which would win a race on the same track etc. There were talks of Indycar hosting races in europe, australia ans japan, in other words it was seroiusly stepping on F1's toes.

suddenly, just when it was looking like a challenger to F1 it began to implode.

when you look at the main people involved in that implosion it certainly raises suspicion.

Tony George pulls the jewel of American racing away from Indycar, not long after he signs a long term deal to host F1's first American race in nearly a decade.

Toyota and Honda, the first major manufacturers to back Indycar were, at the time, at the beginning of a serious financial commitment to success in F1.

Marlborough, who placed pressure on Penske to jump ship have a major long term presence in F1.

this is the extent of my limited knowledge of the sport but it's enough to raise a question mark, do any of you guys think that Indycar was getting too big? that maybe Bernie had a hand to play in it's downfall?

How about 1997?

Milwaukee - Moore's first win
Detroit - Pacwest last lap gamble
Portland - closest finish
Cleveland - Zanardi from back to front

those where just 4 incredible races in a row, each one better than the last...

I recently posted this in Cesspool Comments and several who had forgotten and those too young to have seen the real thing were positively impressed. This is what it was like then...

I know what you mean, Buford. Last week I came across my DVD of the '85 CART race at Phoenix. Back when drivers were mostly older than 18 and weighed more than 120lbs (some MUCH more). It will never be the same. Glad I have all these tapes and DVDs to watch when I start feeling out-of-touch with today's boys and girls in racing. NPC

Click this link, click on Vintage Races, and sit back and enjoy full broadcasts of the 1984 and 1995 Long Beach Grands Prix.

Sorry for my inability to paste pictures, but here's the Corkscrew in 1996 with Zanardi lining up to pass Herta on the final lap! A true classic!

http://i.pbase.com/v...601.HERTAZ1.jpg

And here's no other than Ayrton Senna driving a Penske Indycar in 1992 during his consideration of a switch to the series for 1993! Imagine that Senna, Mansell, Mario, Fittipaldi, Unser Jr and Rahal being in the series at the same time. That could've been game over for Bernie ;)

http://autoracing.vi...nna_Penske2.jpg

After getting off to a decent start during the first several seasons, 1979 thru 1981, from about 1982 thru 1984 CART really began to hit its stride and generally was great stuff until maybe the 1997/1998 period when there were subtle, yet substantial changes to the series.

I tend to focus my work on the earlier years of the series, having in draft form an in-depth review of the 1984 season sitting on the shelf somewhere that was was intended for a series in RVM before it bit the dust.

I am often surprised to look back and realize just how good the CART PPG, IMSA Camel GTP, and NASCAR Winston Cup series were in the Eighties, something that led me away from the increasing less interesting world of F1.

Does anyone have a more detailed accoutning of how/why Penske didnt qualify for the 1995 Indianapols 500? It seems downright odd considering how much track time they got and the level of the team and drivers.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Does anyone have a more detailed accoutning of how/why Penske didnt qualify for the 1995 Indianapols 500? It seems downright odd considering how much track time they got and the level of the team and drivers.

Their chassis/engine combination didn't suit the Indy layout, and they were suffering due to that. But the fact that they were more than a full second a lap slower was quite a shocker, given that their own Penske chassis had won both in 1993 and 1994.

Here's the speed record that de Ferran set at Fontana in 2000!

The amazing finish at Michigan 500 in 1998, where Moore just beat the Ganassis in a mental finish!

That famous pass at Laguna in 1996!

I've been curious to Nigel Beresford's silence regarding this thread. Question answered. From this mornings Gordon Kirby column:

Rick Mears joined some of the experience people from Penske’s Grand-Am team to help run Power’s car at Long Beach. "It was like the old days," Rick chuckled. "We used our heads and the pit board. It was fun."

Veteran Penske engineer Nigel Beresford was in charge of running Power last weekend. "Will did a great job in difficult circumstances," Beresford remarked. "He’s an interesting fellow, very intense. I like him and there’s no doubt that he’s very, very good."

Power drove as hard as he could throughout the race while trying to save as much fuel as possible. "When you’re saving fuel you drive harder through the corners to make up for it," Power commented. "I was on full lean and you have to drive hard in that situtation to get the most out of the car."

Well done Nigel! Looking forward to you being able to check in with us. We are blessed at TNF to have such great input from people in the heat of racing battles past and present. Hope to see you in Indianapolis!

Brian Brown

Originally posted by jeze


That famous pass at Laguna in 1996!

I always had a soft spot for Bryan Herta, and I believe he never really recovered from this one! And, truth to be told, although you couldn't help being a Zanardi fan, that was nothing but pure luck on his side - LUCK!!!

Well, that and an illegal pass in any other form of motorsport. In fact CART ammended their rules following that race to avoid that sort of move happening again.

Maybe it's an Italian thing? Rossi did the same to Stoner in the MotoGP race. Same track, same corner.

The fateful finish of the 1989 Indy 500, when Fittipaldi punted Unser off the track and won the race.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Does anyone have a more detailed accoutning of how/why Penske didnt qualify for the 1995 Indianapols 500? It seems downright odd considering how much track time they got and the level of the team and drivers.

The thing was I think that Penske was at sea at Indy in 95 due to the previous year's use of the Mercedes Pushrod motor- you don't need too much handling if you are 100hp or more up on everyone else and that actually put them way behind in 1995. Emmo had a run that would have been good enough (retrospectively) to get in. But that was the absolute shocker, overshadowing Rahal failing to get in the previous year.

All this is really from news reports and my memory. I too hope to hear some of the more inside scoops about CART.