Strangest/most mismatched car/class combinations in a single race

I remember Bill Brack being very upset about a Formula Ford that had gotten in his way and caused him to crash his Lotus F5000 in a Canadian championship race in the late 60's or early 70's.

I remember being in an open wheel practice session for an Ontario region race at Mosport. I was in my Kelly FV and as I was climbing the back straight I could see (in my mirrors) Vince Murray in his Lotus 69 FB/Atlantic just coming out of Moss Corner. I swear to god he screamed past me long before I got to corner 8.

And in a similar scenario at Shannonville, I was already starting to brake for turn 2 in my FV and looked in my mirrors to see Dave Weber just exiting turn 1 in his F Atlantic Ralt. Again, I swear to god he dove inside me as I started to turn in.

Was I spending too much time watching my mirrors? You're damn right!

One of the guys that I raced against as a novice in FV bought Horst Kroll's Lola T142. I don't think I was ever on the track at the same time as him but I seem to recall practice sessions where he was out in his 5 litre Chevy with a bunch of guys in their 1.2 litre VW's. Simply nuts!

Bob Mackenzie

Edited by R.W. Mackenzie, 11 March 2013 - 00:04.

What about Ecurie Ecosse D-Types vs. Indy Cars at Monza oval

What about Ecurie Ecosse D-Types vs. Indy Cars at Monza oval

I've read that the USAC cars needed a lot of repairs in between the heats, but did the same apply to the D-Types?

I wonder how a modern day rematch would turn out...

I've read that the USAC cars needed a lot of repairs in between the heats, but did the same apply to the D-Types?

I wonder how a modern day rematch would turn out...

The races were run in three heats in deference to concerns about the longevity of the European tyres and the Jaguars' speed was limited to conserve their Dunlops. I have read reports that suggest that had the 1957 race been run as a single race the Jaguars might have outlasted the USAC cars, even allowing for tyre stops, which implies they needed less in the way of repairs (Jack Fairman was 4th behind three USAC cars).

You can't just leave us hanging. Details man, details

That is a very old sprinter by that time.

the 1981 Pocono 500 is probably a honorable mention too: Indycars and sprint cars in the same race!


from: http://www.trackforu...USAC-Pocono-500

Back in 1980 or so I crewed for a friend of a friend who ran a D-Production Porsche 911 in Cal Club. At the end of the year they ran a 4 hour enduro open to all closed wheel SCCA classes. There were everything from 2-liter sports racers and A-Production (big block) Corvettes to Showroom Stock Pintos. I think a total of 74 cars started. that was an interesting day!

Cheers,
Kurt O.

Just noticed again the front cover of MS for March 1967; a photo of Daytona showing a Ferrari P4, a Ferrari 412P..............and an MGB-GT.

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 12 March 2013 - 19:39.

Interserie today!
Anything from Formula Opel or BMW on the slow side up to F1, IndyCart, group C and original Can-Am cars on the fast side.

You can't just leave us hanging. Details man, details

That is a very old sprinter by that time.

#92 is Serge Tesolin, a Canadian in a FJunior Lola (iinm) with a Ford V8 stuffed into it, the place presumably West Virginia International Speedway at Huntington, and the year 1964. Sadly, I cannot identify the rail frame car.

the 1981 Pocono 500 is probably a honorable mention too: Indycars and sprint cars in the same race!


from: http://www.trackforu...USAC-Pocono-500

Those were champ cars not sprint cars.

I am having to do this from memory and I can't remember the persons involved ,but one of the most unusual follows.

2 Nascar drivers in the 50s during early part of their careers and both stars in later years are arguing in this well known mechanic's garage about who has the faster car. The mechanic who is a bit older and wiser listens for a bit till fustration takes over. "You are standing there arguing who has the faster car and I could beat you both with a horse". So the race is arranged and the drivers turn up for the drag race with their cars and the mechanic with a horse. The horse wins and the drivers find out how quick a quarter horse is over 200 yds.

I am having to do this from memory and I can't remember the persons involved ,but one of the most unusual follows.

2 Nascar drivers in the 50s during early part of their careers and both stars in later years are arguing in this well known mechanic's garage about who has the faster car. The mechanic who is a bit older and wiser listens for a bit till fustration takes over. "You are standing there arguing who has the faster car and I could beat you both with a horse". So the race is arranged and the drivers turn up for the drag race with their cars and the mechanic with a horse. The horse wins and the drivers find out how quick a quarter horse is over 200 yds.

I wonder ... was one of the protagonists Smokey Yunick?

The horse wins and the drivers find out how quick a quarter horse is over 200 yds.

Fascinating! Just try and imagine what a full horse could have achieved...

The horse wins and the drivers find out how quick a quarter horse is over 200 yds.

Fascinating! Just try and imagine what a full horse could have achieved...

I wonder ... was one of the protagonists Smokey Yunick?

That's tripped a brain cell. So Smokey Yunick and Fireball Roberts, both Daytona residents. Smokey with the horse. So who grew up near Fireball Roberts and of similar age?

Not as exciting as some of these other examples, but at the Brazilian GP, the opening race for the 1988 season, Dallara entered their F3000 car. The pukka F1 car wasn't ready so Alex Caffi tried to qualify an F3000 car. This was done by the team solely to avoid the fine imposed by not competing at every Grand Prix of the season.

Fascinating! Just try and imagine what a full horse could have achieved...

Not quite counting I'm sure, but ET drag racing does throw up some wonderful combinations, the best from my collection:


Dutch Super Pro ET racers burnout by Tim R-T-C, on Flickr

NB: The truck actually passed 0.8 faster than the Viper

Interlagos 1970...strange mix, Lola T70 coming up to lap classic"Carreteira" similar to Fangio's cars...

Saloon car racing through the ages from the late 1990's to 1970 the latter represented by Peter Hallford's rumbling 302 Boss Mustang at the back of the field at Thruxton on Sunday.

Edited by arttidesco, 05 April 2013 - 20:39.

This was common in the 60's:

http://www.geheugenv.../it...ANP01" )/

I believe this picture was taken at Brands Hatch - a production saloon Chevette, a GT40(?) on the outside, a modified saloon on the inside, and is that a Clubman tucked in behind?



Source: http://sideways-tech...y-from-history/

I believe this picture was taken at Brands Hatch - a production saloon Chevette, a GT40(?) on the outside, a modified saloon on the inside, and is that a Clubman tucked in behind?

Looks like a Lotus Super 7 (clone) to me.

The 1972 Rothmans 50,000 at Brands Hatch - Formula 1, F5000, Formula 2 and a lone Lola T280 sports car

Also on the entry list were a Lola T70 Mk3B, a Porsche 908, numerous 2-litre Lola and Chevron sports cars, David Savile-Peck's Costello CanAm car and a Clubmans U2. None of these were fast enough to get into the main event but many took part in the 100 km consolation race

The 1972 Rothmans 50,000 at Brands Hatch - Formula 1, F5000, Formula 2 and a lone Lola T280 sports car

 

The 50,000 was a good idea but in the end was a bit of a dull race.

 

Full entry here: http://www.oldracing...php?RaceID=R572

One year at Bathurst they stuck the GT Production championship and 2 Litre Super Tourers together in a support race. It was just before the Super Tourers had their own Bathurst 1000. 1995 or 96? I think the reason they gave was they had run out of time to have two separate races!

Edited by Zippel, 16 October 2013 - 22:31.

I'm not familiar with either category.  How close in performance were they?

During the Castrol "Clash for Cash" meeting at Oran Park in early 1987, a match race was held between the 5-litre V8 Kaditcha sports car of Chris Clearihan and the 250cc ZIP TZ Yamaha Superkart of Paul Hillman:

 

Which one won?

I suppose you could include the F1 mixed up with clubbie style Sports cars and a couple of early 5000s too.

Read The Mallala Easter thread

During the Castrol "Clash for Cash" meeting at Oran Park in early 1987, a match race was held between the 5-litre V8 Kaditcha sports car of Chris Clearihan and the 250cc ZIP TZ Yamaha Superkart of Paul Hillman:

 

 

Similar concept a few years back with a match race between a Gemballa-tuned Porsche and Yamaha R1 at Qld Raceway during the lunch break (the bike won).

Also at an Historic meeting at the same venue Kevin Bartlett in his original Camaro gave half a lap head start to a Goggomobile Dart.... and still won, despite a misfire.

Similar concept a few years back with a match race between a Gemballa-tuned Porsche and Yamaha R1 at Qld Raceway during the lunch break (the bike won).

Also at an Historic meeting at the same venue Kevin Bartlett in his original Camaro gave half a lap head start to a Goggomobile Dart.... and still won, despite a misfire.

The match race at Rowley Pk between Gene Welch in his illegal anywhere Camaro sedan and Bill Wigzell in the 'Suddenly' supermodified. Gene lost that series totally and ended up upside down in the sedan feature after a nudge from Graham Benneche's Torana when Gene was trying to lap another car. Not one of his better nights!

Similar concept a few years back with a match race between a Gemballa-tuned Porsche and Yamaha R1 at Qld Raceway during the lunch break (the bike won).

Also at an Historic meeting at the same venue Kevin Bartlett in his original Camaro gave half a lap head start to a Goggomobile Dart.... and still won, despite a misfire.

I would have though KB could give the Dart about 3/4 of a lap head start.

I would have though KB could give the Dart about 3/4 of a lap head start.

QR isn't an overly long track, but you're probably right, IIRC KB passed the Goggo on exit of the last corner......

English oval track hot rods versus rallycross cars at Wimbledon in 1976:

A great shot (from Gerry's Marshall's book) of Baby Bertha menacing some formula cars during a Brands Libre race.

 

 

"Here I give Philip Guerola's March a frightening spectacle in the mirrors before passing to win!"

Edited by fer312t, 11 June 2014 - 09:10.

Would have thought the Grand Prix Auto Unions vTalbot105 in South African GP in thirties was a bit of a missmatch!

Actually Val Musetti's F2 March Big Gerry is monstering, with I think, Richard Lloyd's Lola T294 behind, and then a Dulon FF2000

A great shot (from Gerry's Marshall's book) of Baby Bertha menacing some formula cars during a Brands Libre race.

 

 

"Here I give Philip Guerola's March a frightening spectacle in the mirrors before passing to win!"

There appears to be another tintop hiding under the wing of Gerrys car

Just about any Formula Libre race at Croft or Rufforth in late 60s and early 70s. Tony Dean in F2 Chevron (?) , Porsche 908 and Chevron B24 F5000 taking on U2s, FF1600s and anything else which was brave enough.

I remember seeing Tony Dean win a Libre race at Mallory with his 908, with a one minute penalty for a pushed-start (although I always thought that the penalty was probably incurred deliberately in a well-intentioned attempt to make a show of it).

One obvious mis-match I saw was, ironically, in a one-make race. In the old Class A (for 1700cc BD-engines) of the Caterham Seven series - late 89 or early 90 I guess - Alex Hawkridge started at the back of the grid with a 10-second penalty (for overtaking under yellows in practice). Now Alex was a useful driver, but to then win comfortably after 10 laps of the Brands short circuit did rather confirm the general feeling that his car, and later that of team-mate Barry Lee too, was perhaps not entirely within the spirit of the thing.

Running a bender then Tony ?

One obvious mis-match I saw was, ironically, in a one-make race. In the old Class A (for 1700cc BD-engines) of the Caterham Seven series - late 89 or early 90 I guess - Alex Hawkridge started at the back of the grid with a 10-second penalty (for overtaking under yellows in practice). Now Alex was a useful driver, but to then win comfortably after 10 laps of the Brands short circuit did rather confirm the general feeling that his car, and later that of team-mate Barry Lee too, was perhaps not entirely within the spirit of the thing.

April 1990. My first public race. I was down the back in a Class C car. Hawkridge passed me before I got to Surtees on the first lap and won by 0.9 seconds having lapped 0.75 secs faster than any other Class A car. Rumours I heard that year about the Hawkridge/Lee cars included - carbon fibre front & rear wings manufactured by Benetton F1, an £8,000 magnesium (?) flywheel (exploded at Castle Combe), weekly test sessions and a total budget of £150,000. Barry Lee was hired to ride shotgun but Hawkridge did think that he could beat him. An opinion shared by few others. 

Edited by opplock, 13 June 2014 - 19:47.

Oppo - I may have spoken to you that day then; I was building my Seven at the time and was touring the paddock, pestering anyone who would listen with questions and looking for tips - it was the best place to find a pool of knowledgable owners all gathered together!

Yeah, there were all sorts of rumours about those cars, from other competitors or from people involved in administering the series and someone who worked at Reynard. Hard to know what is entirely true - some mods were visible, some not - but the sources I thought credible:

Their engines sounded exceptionally healthy to me; the carbon bits (now actually quite common on Sevens as largely cosmetic accessories); Dymag wheels (which I assume were custom-made, 'cos they fitted the standard 4-stud hub - though I did know of a couple of well-funded road cars that had them too); custom exhausts; one respectable source reckoned that by the end of the year the chassis were effectively improved and lightened copies, possibly built at Reynard; carbon clutches were mentioned too. They were the first Sevens I saw with cockpit-adjustable brake balance. They had their own roll-over hoops too - similar to the subsequent Vauxhall-race ones, but with a diagonal strut going right into the footwell which probably stiffened the chassis more than the usual one. They had a beautiful truck with their set-up floor and corner scales fitted inside (a few drivers in the series were still driving the cars to the circuit); presumably much of it was actually legal or untestable, but I guess their principal technical advantage was simply their level of resources. I just wondered why they bothered - it surely can't have been terribly satisfying; it was like Penske & Donohue taking on a club saloon series!

I have a stack of detail pictures that I took of them somewhere, but these days you find some Sevens on trackdays that would make them look fairly ordinary. I think one of them may have passed through Paul Matty's but I wonder where they ended up?

I think it pretty much killed Class A, but it all changed anyway when the Vaux-powered race model appeared.

Edited by 2F-001, 13 June 2014 - 21:07.

Class A lasted only another year with small fields. The regulations stated "Competitors should note that engines must be tractible enough to be used on the road. Caterham Car Officials will have the right to drive the competitor's car to establish their suitability as roadgoing vehicles. Cars not conforming to the spirit of the regulations may be refused entry". This proved to be unenforceable. Unfortunately the regulations were designed around the assumption that people would race roadgoing cars. I bought mine from Caterham Cars at the end of 1989 and when weighed later in 1990 found that it weighed 50kg more than some of the Class C cars built specifically for racing. Despite that disadvantage Andy Noble had set the Class C lap record for Brands Indy circuit in 1989 in the same car.   

50kg? Wow… (for those readers less familiar with the cars, they were little over half a ton) - like having a small passenger aboard then!

I'd forgotten the 'road tractable' clause. It all seems a tad idealistic viewed with a 2014 perspective, doesn't it. It was, on the whole, a cracking series to watch though - but clearly it was much less of a level playing field than most of us on the sidelines knew, even in Class C.

Mr H's own brief account of events is here http://books.google....aterham&f=false beginning on p180. Note that whilst some were driving their race cars to the track, the Toleman boys commuted by helicopter!

The extra weight probably cost me 0.5 secs at Brands. My lack of ability about twice as much. One competitor in Class C built a replica chassis from lighter tubing but got caught out in 1991 when it was found to be underweight at 2 consecutive meetings. Caterham got suspicious because they had never been able to build a car that light. The driver in question was no quicker than me, despite the 70kg advantage and better engines. Why bother?