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Building a 1:5 scale model of a Porsche 917 KH from scratch...

Started by Rijk , Sep 28 2009 14:04

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#1 Rijk

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:04

Hello every one

I found this forum with the hope one can help me.
For a year ago I got the idea of building me a scale model of a car.
I decided it should be in a 1 to 5 scale and build from scratch. After browsing a round the web I decided it would be a 917 KH.
The reason for this was that I found some technical drawings which could help me out.
First of all I wanted to make 3D drawings of a 917 and parts. All with the exact dimensions
Afterward I could resize them to 20% and use them as my building plan.
I divided the whole job in 3 pieces ( actually 4 if you also will see the 3D drawings as one)
The spaceframe with drivetrain, the engine with gearbox and the plastic body
Here with some renders from the 3D drawings.


To me it was clear I wanted to rebuild the engine as close to reality as possible.
This means building in metal.


But now why I'm here.
As you can see I know a lot of the engine and all the small parts are no problem. But what beginning to become a problem is the gearbox.
Nobody seems interested to show the inside of the gearbox. No drawings no pictures.
What I do know it's a big 4 or 5 speed transaxle gearbox with a Borg and Beck clutch and his own oil pump.
I only have a side view of this gearbox and comparing this to a 908 box only gives me a small idea of what's might be in it.
I followed a lot of tips from other people about were to find this information but most of the time the drawings were the same
Is there maybe anybody on this forum who knows if those technical drawings of a 917 gearbox do exist or that I better stop searching because they don't
mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 06 April 2010 - 07:35.

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#2 jgm

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 17:53

There are some nice photos of a 917 engine rebuild here:- http://www.pbase.com...7_12_cyl_engine

#3 Bumblyari

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 18:29

Page 166 of Paul Frere's The Racing Porsches.

I can e-mail if you wish.

PS Lovely looking model.

#4 Rijk

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 20:49

There are some nice photos of a 917 engine rebuild here:-


Of course I know them they were my base. But no gearbox there.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 28 September 2009 - 20:55.

#5 Rijk

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 20:57

Page 166 of Paul Frere's The Racing Porsches.
I can e-mail if you wish.


Please do. You make me real curious.

mvgrijk

#6 ibsenop

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 23:18

1969 Porsche 917 gearbox longitudinal section.

Posted Image

I hope this help you.

Ibsen

#7 Rijk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 06:35

1969 Porsche 917 gearbox longitudinal section.
I hope this help you.
Ibsen


Thanks very much but already got that one. It seems to be the only one.

mvgrijk

#8 darky

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 09:35

Rijk, try contact directly Porsche. I believe they have some pictures and drawings in archive and perhaps they be willing help you.

#9 Rijk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 10:26

Rijk, try contact directly Porsche. I believe they have some pictures and drawings in archive and perhaps they be willing help you.


In the beginning was that exactly what I thought too. So I tried. But it's hard to direct contact Porsche if you'are not interested in buying a 911. I also tried to contact the new museum but they never answered my E-mail. Then I digitally met someone who told me that he was involved in reorganising the remains of the archives of the Porsche racing department and he assured me that there were hardly drawings left. So the ones you can find in most of the books about the 917.
But then there was Gunnar. Making videos of stripping a 917. But when it cames to the gearbox it also wasn't opened. It disappeared and was never seen again.
So I'm struggling on and hope to find one day what I'm looking for.

mvgrijk




#10 P 4 Staff

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 15:46

In the beginning was that exactly what I thought too. So I tried. But it's hard to direct contact Porsche if you'are not interested in buying a 911. I also tried to contact the new museum but they never answered my E-mail. Then I digitally met someone who told me that he was involved in reorganising the remains of the archives of the Porsche racing department and he assured me that there were hardly drawings left. So the ones you can find in most of the books about the 917.
But then there was Gunnar. Making videos of stripping a 917. But when it cames to the gearbox it also wasn't opened. It disappeared and was never seen again.
So I'm struggling on and hope to find one day what I'm looking for.

mvgrijk


Hi Rijk.
Of course Porsche have the drawings...but I can understand if they are not willing to spread them around.
Have you shown them your project? Maybe they´d be more willing if they see what you´re up to.

What CAD program do you use? I myself is working in Inventor.

btw...try this: http://www.brunnraci...p917/parts.html

they seem to have some 917 boxes...so maybe they have some assembly drawings as well.

Best: Staffan



#11 D-Type

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 15:55

Rather than e-mail, you might get a better response if you send a letter, addressed to the Director of the Museum, or some such title. Whether they have such a person or not is largely irrelevant, the point is that somebody will have to decide where to file the letter and in the process determine who has to respond to it.

#12 Bumblyari

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 16:00

The picture in the Frere book is the same as that posted by Ibsen plus an external photo view.

#13 Jones Foyer

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 16:17

Wow, Rijk,

You're pretty nuts to go into that detail! I've made digital models of obscure vehicles and it is a continual frustration trying to find the right reference picture. Educated guessing and estimation is something I try to avoid.

You'll have to keep us updated as you progress.

Edited by Jones Foyer, 29 September 2009 - 17:15.

#14 Rijk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 19:56

The picture in the Frere book is the same as that posted by Ibsen plus an external photo view.

And I coupled it to the engine. But for a good 3D drawing you also needed a top view.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 06 April 2010 - 07:36.

#15 Rijk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 20:07

You're pretty nuts to go into that detail!
Educated guessing and estimation is something I try to avoid.

You'll have to keep us updated as you progress.


Why? There must be a challenge somewhere otherwise I could buy a kit.

Your right. Guessing and estimation are not my style. But when you also wanted to fabricate it you sometimes have deal a little with reality and find a way that you can.

I will. But probably not as much as the Dutch site. It takes much time and I prefer to put that time in the real work. And explaining the technical stuff in English is not that easy.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 29 September 2009 - 20:26.

#16 Julian Roberts

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 21:36

In Gordon Wingrove's "Porsche 917 the Undercover Story" chapter 6 is devoted to the transmission. There is a colour sketch/drawing (similar to that in Frere's book described above) two general view photos and a few of detailed close up colour photos. None showing the internals though.

Any interest ?

#17 Rijk

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 22:10

In Gordon Wingrove's "Porsche 917 the Undercover Story" chapter 6 is devoted to the transmission. There is a colour sketch/drawing (similar to that in Frere's book described above) two general view photos and a few of detailed close up colour photos. None showing the internals though.

Any interest ?


No thanks. I'm really looking for more detailed stuff. I want to count teeth or something like that

mvgrijk

#18 PAUL S

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 19:19

No thanks. I'm really looking for more detailed stuff. I want to count teeth or something like that

mvgrijk



there is a full resto of a 917 on youtube

those guys would no doubt help you out

Gunnar Racing in the States

http://www.youtube.c.../22/zaUHZQoG2BY

#19 Rijk

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 21:06

there is a full resto of a 917 on youtube

those guys would no doubt help you out

Gunnar Racing in the States

http://www.youtube.c.../22/zaUHZQoG2BY


Of course I have seen all those videos. I even dismounted them in pictures of interest. But other then putting the gearbox asside they don't show anything. And probably they didn't take it apart because it was functioning well.


But more in general.
There were some helpfull people on this forum that made it possible for me to contact the archives of Porsche. And guess what. After a nice conversation with someone overthere he told me that they don't have any drawings nor pictures from the internals of 917 gearbox. So end of story.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 01 November 2009 - 21:09.

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#20 macepijel

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 17:41

Hello,
An other smaler project exists. May be it's interesting for you...Posted ImagePosted Image
Posted Image

Edited by macepijel, 14 December 2009 - 20:01.

#21 macepijel

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 18:01

SorryPosted Image[/URL]

#22 macepijel

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 18:07

second and third picturePosted Image[/URL][/img]

#23 macepijel

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 18:08

Posted Image[/URL][/img]

#24 Jones Foyer

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 00:51


This is amazing. Keep it up!

Edited by Jones Foyer, 12 December 2009 - 00:54.

#25 Coxy the Bear

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 15:28



I take it this guy gave you inspiration?



I was a little sceptical about your project until I saw the other website. Absolutely amazing and the very best of luck. I hope you finish it quicker than he did, I want to see it! By the way, are you intending the engine to actually work?

#26 macepijel

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 15:27

Hello,
Be careful, I'm not Rijk. I'don't know the project of this hollander.

My project begon in january 2006 in Belgium. 550 pictures, 15 books, 250 map and... three real Porsche 917 were necessary.

Actualy, the frame is on the wheels.

Thank you.

#27 Rijk

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:54

Be careful, I'm not Rijk. I'don't know the project of this hollander.
My project begon in january 2006 in Belgium. 550 pictures, 15 books, 250 map and... three real Porsche 917 were necessary.
Actualy, the frame is on the wheels.


Sorry for no quick response. Nice to see what you have done already.
Maybe one day I could show the same picture from the chassis. But that will be along time from now.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 06 April 2010 - 07:36.

#28 macepijel

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 16:46

Ok, my priority is the frame and the body.

Macepijel

#29 macepijel

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 16:49

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#30 macepijel

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#31 macepijel

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#32 macepijel

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#33 macepijel

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#34 macepijel

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#35 macepijel

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#36 macepijel

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#37 macepijel

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#38 macepijel

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 17:20

This is it !

I'll be back soon with pictures of the frame on wheels with adjustable and complete suspension ... Patience, actualy I built the anti-roll bar just like the model !

See you soon.

Macepijel

#39 macepijel

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 13:16

I take it this guy gave you inspiration?



I was a little sceptical about your project until I saw the other website. Absolutely amazing and the very best of luck. I hope you finish it quicker than he did, I want to see it! By the way, are you intending the engine to actually work?


Hello Coxy,

I know the Ferrari 312 PB 1 / 3. I do not think I'll go as far in construction. This is indeed not my job. I have 5 children, I am a lawyer and I only got one life nai

Macepijel

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#40 cjpani

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 17:23

sweet lord!!

both of these projects are awe inspiring :eek: :eek: :clap:
I am an avid scale 917 collector, an I tought my large piece was a work of art, but, what you two show is truly truly amazing, keep it up.
Some pics of mine:



Posted Image
Shot with CYBERSHOT at 2005-05-21
the medium one is 1:18 and the smallest is 1:43


Posted Image
Shot with CYBERSHOT at 2005-05-21

Good luck with both projects.
regards,
cj

#41 Rijk

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 21:11

This is it !
Macepijel

I did send you a message ??.

mvgrijk

#42 macepijel

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:51

Thank you and merry Christmas


Posted Image

#43 zoombie

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 11:06

that is amazing! how did you guys built the engine? Casting?

#44 Rijk

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:47

that is amazing! how did you guys built the engine? Casting?

Watch out only 3D drawings.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 06 April 2010 - 07:38.

#45 Rijk

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 22:56

Finally I managed to draw me a 917 gearbox.

mvgrijk

Edited by Rijk, 06 April 2010 - 07:34.

#46 TerryNeumaster

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 14:06

Hello Rijk, My name is Terry Neumaster I have an intense interest in the 917 also. My suggestion would be to take apart the VW or Porsche transmission for a bus or 911 in your country that should be a very common transmission. In the 1967-1970 years VW and Porsche worked together because VW owned Porsche. I would suppose the same engineers designed both transmissions. If you are still at a dead end I would try that or talk to Karl-Heinz Feustel [akademie9@t-online.de]he said to me "Hello Mr. Neumaster, we offer a engine block typ 917, a crankshaft measurement ok fluxt and polisht, 12 zylinder in used condition, 12 con roads used, 12 heads used 4 have cracks but ist worth to weld, 2 camshaft housings, 4 valf covers, 1 centerdrive fort he fan We also offer 1 engine 5,4 asperatrunning condition complete 1 CANAM gearbox condition brand new" Charly Feustel

Also, I would like to build a single 917 (full sized for track day runs) I would like to know what you would charge to utilized (single use license) your CAD of the car for that purpose. I have collected all of the available plans and was going to start on the CAD for the frame this year. Apparently you have had several years of head start and access to the actual vehicles. I will never have that opportunity here in the U.S. since I don't live in California. I am truly impressed with your work and am sure you have paid attention to the very last detail. I won't have the tools to build the motor so I will have to use a substitute two of the magnesium block, air cooled, Chevrolet Corvair engines linked together to make the 12 cylinders. Please think about it and let me know. Thank you, Terry


Hello every one
I found this forum with the hope one can help me.
For a year ago I got the idea of building me a scale model of a car.
I decided it should be in a 1 to 5 scale and build from scratch. After browsing a round the web I decided it would be a 917 KH.
The reason for this was that I found some technical drawings which could help me out.
First of all I wanted to make 3D drawings of a 917 and parts. All with the exact dimensions
Afterward I could resize them to 20% and use them as my building plan.
I divided the whole job in 3 pieces ( actually 4 if you also will see the 3D drawings as one)
The spaceframe with drivetrain, the engine with gearbox and the plastic body
Here with some renders from the 3D drawings.
To me it was clear I wanted to rebuild the engine as close to reality as possible.
This means building in metal.
But now why I'm here.
As you can see I know a lot of the engine and all the small parts are no problem. But what beginning to become a problem is the gearbox.
Nobody seems interested to show the inside of the gearbox. No drawings no pictures.
What I do know it's a big 4 or 5 speed transaxle gearbox with a Borg and Beck clutch and his own oil pump.
I only have a side view of this gearbox and comparing this to a 908 box only gives me a small idea of what's might be in it.
I followed a lot of tips from other people about were to find this information but most of the time the drawings were the same
Is there maybe anybody on this forum who knows if those technical drawings of a 917 gearbox do exist or that I better stop searching because they don't

#47 Rijk

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 11:35

Hello Rijk, My name is Terry Neumaster


Hello Terry

Sory for the delay. You've got a pm

mvgrijk

#48 macepijel

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 17:12

Hello Terry

Sory for the delay. You've got a pm

mvgrijk


Hello, would you find some picture of 917 1/6 in progress. Thank you. Macepijel

Posted Image[/url][/img]

#49 macepijel

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 17:13

Posted Image[/url][/img]

#50 macepijel

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 17:16

Posted Image
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