Most of you are aware that I have my own website called Grand Prix History. In that site I have a Hall of Fame where I list what i feel were the greatest drivers in history. The list is not complete and i really have a mind to remove Piquet. Well from time to time I get letters below that admonish me regarding certain drives like Damon Hill and Mansell. Basically I need help here fellows. Does Mansell belong in my Hall of Fame and if so who do I need to kick out?
DEAR MR. DAVID,
I WAS SHOCK AND ANGRY TO SEE THAT YOU DID NOT INCLUDE NIGEL MANSALL ON YOUR
LIST OF THE GREATEST GRAND PRIX DRIVERS. A DRIVER THAT HOLDS THE RECORD FOR
MOST WINS IN A SEASON, NINE (1992), FIRST DRIVER TO WON THE OPENING FIVE
RACES IN A SEASON (1992), AND HOLDS THE RECORD FOR THE MOST VICTORIES FOR A
BRITISH DRIVER, THIRTY-ONE.
AND HE ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING THAT ONLY FEW DRIVERS HAS DONE WON BOTH THE
FORMULA 1 AND CART DRIVER CHAMPIONSHIPS.
IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED THAT THAT YOU THIS MAN THE RESPECT HE DESERVES.
SINCERELY, A DEVOTED FORMULA 1 FOLLWER,
GREG TREDWAY
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Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Does Mansell belong in my Hall of Fame
Started by
Dennis David
, Apr 08 2000 10:03
44 replies to this topic
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#2
404KF2
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 11:39
Well, he does have good stats...
"We're only making plans for Nigel..."
"We're only making plans for Nigel..."
#3
Marcel Schot
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 15:03
Well, if it comes down to having to kick one out to include Mansell, I think there aren't many in your hall of fame who are of less quality dan Nige.
Obviously your HOF isn't just about drivers with the best stats, but also include personality. Only one who I personally see could be replaced by Mansell is Vittorio Jano, but that might have something to do with the fact that I'm not all that familiar with him and his work.
Obviously your HOF isn't just about drivers with the best stats, but also include personality. Only one who I personally see could be replaced by Mansell is Vittorio Jano, but that might have something to do with the fact that I'm not all that familiar with him and his work.
#4
Joe Fan
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 15:18
Dennis, I think Nigel Mansell is worthy for your HOF, I would include him, but I also think Louis Chiron deserves to be there too for similar reasons. Nigel's 31 F1 wins is currently 4th all-time. Having that many wins means that he was good and dedicated to the sport. I know that some will say that he only won one WDC, but I think WDC's are a bit overrated in comparison to winning races. Nigel verified his talent by winning the CART championship in his rookie season in the series. And CART was a lot more competitive then than today. I wouldn't remove anybody from your HOF once you have added them because you decided at one time that they were worthy. If you are running into space problems, put the constructors on another page separate from the drivers.
#5
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 16:14
You might just have to build a bigger hall.
Nigel not only had some stats (I don't regard them as all that impressive, really, some having been gained in periods much easier than those he 'outnumbered'), but he had passion with a capital 'P'...
Nigel also nearly won two other titles, don't forget. A tyre failure cost him one, a practice crash the other.
He weathered the hatred of Prost and Senna along the way, and came back from CART to win yet another race.
The downside is that he failed in a full scale return to F1, but then he was older than many when he started, much older when he tried to return.
For those who saw his 'whinging' as a downside, I think they should remember that we all have character flaws, and perhaps he played things up a little.
Nige has got to be in it for the sheer audacity he showed.
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
Nigel not only had some stats (I don't regard them as all that impressive, really, some having been gained in periods much easier than those he 'outnumbered'), but he had passion with a capital 'P'...
Nigel also nearly won two other titles, don't forget. A tyre failure cost him one, a practice crash the other.
He weathered the hatred of Prost and Senna along the way, and came back from CART to win yet another race.
The downside is that he failed in a full scale return to F1, but then he was older than many when he started, much older when he tried to return.
For those who saw his 'whinging' as a downside, I think they should remember that we all have character flaws, and perhaps he played things up a little.
Nige has got to be in it for the sheer audacity he showed.
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#6
Nathan
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 16:29
Although he wasnt a great driver...hmmmm...no, I dont think he had the proper attitude of a hall of famer. He wasnt a great driver either, good stats yes, but look at the car he got those stats in.
#7
Kuwashima
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 16:47
My opinion is that I would never in a million years replace a 3-time World Champion (and considering that he won at least 2 of those titles during a period of extreme competitiveness) with a 1-time World Champion (considering the fact that in the year he won it his car was basically a monorail, and his competition was TOTALLY lacklustre: no Prost, Senna in an inferior car).
But that's just me. I think 1992 was a joke of a season, really. All Nige had to do was steer basically. However, it is true that he nearly (perhaps SHOULD have) won the chapionship in other years, demonstrating the talent that he undoubtedly had. For that reason he should be considered very strongly for the HoF.
But not at the expense of Piquet. That's bordering on laughable, IMHO. I think that the magic four of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell ALL deserve to be in the Hall for the mere fact that they, basically, WERE the 1980's F1 scene.
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But that's just me. I think 1992 was a joke of a season, really. All Nige had to do was steer basically. However, it is true that he nearly (perhaps SHOULD have) won the chapionship in other years, demonstrating the talent that he undoubtedly had. For that reason he should be considered very strongly for the HoF.
But not at the expense of Piquet. That's bordering on laughable, IMHO. I think that the magic four of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell ALL deserve to be in the Hall for the mere fact that they, basically, WERE the 1980's F1 scene.
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Profiles of the WORST drivers and teams in Grand Prix history
#8
Dennis David
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 18:35
Marcel, Jano is one of the greatest designers of all time and was responsable for some of the great Alfas as well as the Lancia D50. Take a look at his bio: http://www.ddavid.co...a1/jano_bio.htm
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Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
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Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#9
Keir
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Posted 08 April 2000 - 20:11
Too bad old Nige didn't drive the Matra.
Then we would see what was louder.
The wail of the Matra.
Or the whine of the Mansell!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
Then we would see what was louder.
The wail of the Matra.
Or the whine of the Mansell!!!
------------------
"I Was Born Ready"
#10
KzKiwi
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 04:40
Keir, you are so cruel (true but cruel). I know which one I would rather listen too.
DD at the end of the day it is your personel choice as to whether to include Mansell in your H.O.F. Sure the stats and history need to be considered as the main reason for entry but , at the end of the day, it is your hall of fame.
DD at the end of the day it is your personel choice as to whether to include Mansell in your H.O.F. Sure the stats and history need to be considered as the main reason for entry but , at the end of the day, it is your hall of fame.
#11
Racer.Demon
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 05:16
Dennis,
Is there a particular reason why your HoF should be restricted to the odd number of 26 in total? (Apart from them being neatly ordered on the homepage, but that's just a design issue.)
I think you should be heralded for not just including drivers but designers and team bosses as well. But there would be several more candidates equally fit to join your HoF.
Restricting myself to drivers, almost any driver featuring in last year's Greatest Driver poll at 8W (http://www.racer.dem...w/poll1res.html) earns a place. Felix, Rainer, Leif and me weren't able to put them into an order (as you rightly neglected to do as well), so we asked our readers to choose from our long list of nominees.
The Top 25 does not really reflect what our own desired ranking would have looked like, but you'll see Mansell featuring in it - at number 17, no less, just one spot behind Piquet. So a lot of people seem to think Nigel belongs in there. (Although, as expected, the larger audience participating in the poll oversaw including many of the pre-war, or to be more precise, pre-thirties greats. Come to think of it: you do as well! Where are Nazzaro, Boillot or Antonio A.?)
Because of Nelson's silly antics, which hit the target in my schoolboy days, I was a Piquet fan in the eighties. But I can see why he was a lucky triple champion, while Nigel was unlucky *not* to be a triple champion...
Cheers,
R.D
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Is there a particular reason why your HoF should be restricted to the odd number of 26 in total? (Apart from them being neatly ordered on the homepage, but that's just a design issue.)
I think you should be heralded for not just including drivers but designers and team bosses as well. But there would be several more candidates equally fit to join your HoF.
Restricting myself to drivers, almost any driver featuring in last year's Greatest Driver poll at 8W (http://www.racer.dem...w/poll1res.html) earns a place. Felix, Rainer, Leif and me weren't able to put them into an order (as you rightly neglected to do as well), so we asked our readers to choose from our long list of nominees.
The Top 25 does not really reflect what our own desired ranking would have looked like, but you'll see Mansell featuring in it - at number 17, no less, just one spot behind Piquet. So a lot of people seem to think Nigel belongs in there. (Although, as expected, the larger audience participating in the poll oversaw including many of the pre-war, or to be more precise, pre-thirties greats. Come to think of it: you do as well! Where are Nazzaro, Boillot or Antonio A.?)
Because of Nelson's silly antics, which hit the target in my schoolboy days, I was a Piquet fan in the eighties. But I can see why he was a lucky triple champion, while Nigel was unlucky *not* to be a triple champion...
Cheers,
R.D
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#12
Fast One
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 05:28
Dennis--
I always liked Nige, he was a fearsome passer and very, very quick. Does he deserve to be in your Hall of Fame? Maybe. He certainly deserves it more than Rindt, Peterson, and Villeneuve, choices which mystify me considering who you haven't included. I never was a fan of Piquet, and consider his titles to be more good fortune than great driving, but he DID win them, and that has to count for something. By all means put Nige in...Surtees, too, whose accomplishments humble half the people on your list. And do you really want Herr Schumacher in there? His presence adds a certain...oder...if you know what I mean. Hall of Fame talent; Hall of Shame person.
I always liked Nige, he was a fearsome passer and very, very quick. Does he deserve to be in your Hall of Fame? Maybe. He certainly deserves it more than Rindt, Peterson, and Villeneuve, choices which mystify me considering who you haven't included. I never was a fan of Piquet, and consider his titles to be more good fortune than great driving, but he DID win them, and that has to count for something. By all means put Nige in...Surtees, too, whose accomplishments humble half the people on your list. And do you really want Herr Schumacher in there? His presence adds a certain...oder...if you know what I mean. Hall of Fame talent; Hall of Shame person.
#13
Jonathan
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 09:46
Fast One
"I always liked Nige, he was a fearsome passer and very, very quick. Does he deserve to be in your Hall of Fame? Maybe. He certainly deserves it more than Rindt, Peterson, and Villeneuve, choices which mystify me considering who you haven't included."
Huh ?
Nigel may have been a pig-headed hard charger at times. He may even have been somewhat talanted too, But he was never in the same league as Rindt, Peterson, and Villeneuve.
Poor Old Nigel had a tendancy to push too hard (particuarly when under pressure) and then try and blame everone else around him when he failed. Not the mark of a great champion.
His only WDC came about primarily through the use of extensive Electronic Driver Aids (things like Traction Control, and Active Suspesion).
While I would not go so far as to claim that a monkey could have won the WDC in that car, I do think Ricardo Patrase, or Terry Boutson certainly could have taken the WDC that year in that car had they been Williams's # One Driver. Perhaps we should add these two drivers as well ?
"I always liked Nige, he was a fearsome passer and very, very quick. Does he deserve to be in your Hall of Fame? Maybe. He certainly deserves it more than Rindt, Peterson, and Villeneuve, choices which mystify me considering who you haven't included."
Huh ?
Nigel may have been a pig-headed hard charger at times. He may even have been somewhat talanted too, But he was never in the same league as Rindt, Peterson, and Villeneuve.
Poor Old Nigel had a tendancy to push too hard (particuarly when under pressure) and then try and blame everone else around him when he failed. Not the mark of a great champion.
His only WDC came about primarily through the use of extensive Electronic Driver Aids (things like Traction Control, and Active Suspesion).
While I would not go so far as to claim that a monkey could have won the WDC in that car, I do think Ricardo Patrase, or Terry Boutson certainly could have taken the WDC that year in that car had they been Williams's # One Driver. Perhaps we should add these two drivers as well ?
#14
Fast One
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 09:54
I thought I said "maybe". Believe me, Nige would have run with Rindt, who only won when he had by far the best car as well. Both were fast and inconsistent, but Rindt was slower than Nige and less consistent as well. I saw Rindt race several times. He wasn't that good, except on the very odd day, when he was dynamite. I missed all of those.
#15
Jonathan
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 10:06
Perhaps we tend to regard drivers who died tring a little differently than those who managed to retire alive and healthy...
Yes on a good Day, Nigel could be fast, and exciting to watch. But somehow I don't see him as a true Champion. Placing him in the same league as Rindt, Peterson or Villeneuve just rubbed me the wrong way.
Yes on a good Day, Nigel could be fast, and exciting to watch. But somehow I don't see him as a true Champion. Placing him in the same league as Rindt, Peterson or Villeneuve just rubbed me the wrong way.
#16
f li
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 10:28
DDavid,
Nigel Mansell might not belong in your Hall of Fame, but his wife does!
Nigel Mansell might not belong in your Hall of Fame, but his wife does!
#17
Fast One
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 10:32
Jonathan--
Sounds like you dislike Mansell and his hype about as much as I dislike Rindt and his. I never could understand why anyone admired the guy. Actually, I don't remember his being thought of as anyhting but fast and inconsistent until AFTER his death. Peterson was good. Not my favorite, but very, very good. I only would give Mansell the nod because of his title, and that might be unfair. Upon reflection, I'd rate Peterson higher as a driver, but I think his reputation grew after his death as well.
Villeneuve excites more emotional response from people than anyone I can think of. Personally, I never had any use for the guy, and I can make a pretty good statistical case that he was closer to Gerhard Berger in results than Stirling Moss, for example. The problem is, he defies statistics. He was usually mediocre, but on those few special days, he was touched by the ghost of Nuvolari! You could only scratch your head and wonder if this was the same guy who was a mid-packer the race before. I think Gilles reputation benefitted more from the way he died...it was the stuff of romance (in the medieval sense). Pure legend, even if the facts were somwhat different.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to set you off. I have mixed feeling about Mansell, too. But I think a better case can be made for him than the three drivers I just mentioned. Feel free to disagree. It always interests me to see what makes drivers admired by their fans.
Sounds like you dislike Mansell and his hype about as much as I dislike Rindt and his. I never could understand why anyone admired the guy. Actually, I don't remember his being thought of as anyhting but fast and inconsistent until AFTER his death. Peterson was good. Not my favorite, but very, very good. I only would give Mansell the nod because of his title, and that might be unfair. Upon reflection, I'd rate Peterson higher as a driver, but I think his reputation grew after his death as well.
Villeneuve excites more emotional response from people than anyone I can think of. Personally, I never had any use for the guy, and I can make a pretty good statistical case that he was closer to Gerhard Berger in results than Stirling Moss, for example. The problem is, he defies statistics. He was usually mediocre, but on those few special days, he was touched by the ghost of Nuvolari! You could only scratch your head and wonder if this was the same guy who was a mid-packer the race before. I think Gilles reputation benefitted more from the way he died...it was the stuff of romance (in the medieval sense). Pure legend, even if the facts were somwhat different.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to set you off. I have mixed feeling about Mansell, too. But I think a better case can be made for him than the three drivers I just mentioned. Feel free to disagree. It always interests me to see what makes drivers admired by their fans.
#18
Ray Bell
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 10:33
I saw Nige, Villeneuve, Piquet, Rindt - but not Peterson (though I would love to have done). Nige was the charger, a man who could evoke charisma through his pure determination to be at the front.
The day I saw Piquet he fell to bits (Monaco, 1981), and Rindt was a flash-in-the-pan brilliant on one of the three occasions I saw him.
I daresay that a poll put to the spectators at Monza would ballot Piquet out and put Nigel and Gilles equal first - Peterson a distant third.
Hot blooded people that they are.
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
The day I saw Piquet he fell to bits (Monaco, 1981), and Rindt was a flash-in-the-pan brilliant on one of the three occasions I saw him.
I daresay that a poll put to the spectators at Monza would ballot Piquet out and put Nigel and Gilles equal first - Peterson a distant third.
Hot blooded people that they are.
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#19
Fast One
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 10:52
I agree GV had heart. I'm just not convinced he was consistent enough to be considered a hall of famer.
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#20
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 11:37
There is nothing more fun than comparing lists of greatest drivers - and nothing harder than trying to factor in different eras, relative competition, and who may have been in the right car at the right time - and vice-versa. With no disrespect to any of the opinions expressed above I must come to the defense of Jochen Rindt. I will reveal my bias at the outset by saying he makes my top 10 of all time. I think it's relevant to recall what people thought at the time. Both his peers and the motoring press rated him very highly indeed. And he was very much in demand by virtually all the teams. Jack Brabham, a real no nonsense guy if there ever was one, rates him better than Clark and very much wanted him back for the '69 season. After Jim Clark died in April 1968 Jochen was clearly the quickest driver in F-1. He was also the absolute dominant driver in F-2 throughout this period. Not impressed? Remember that F-2 at the time always had six GP drivers or so in the field and the rest of the field was highly talented with very hungry drivers. Arguably F-2 is a better measuring stick than F-1 because the equipment was more equal. But his results in F-1 need no apology. He never was in the right team from 65 through 68 (but turned in some stirring drives). After winning the USGP in '69 he won 5 more times in '70 to become World Champion. To say he had the best car is very unfair. He won Monaco with an absolutely spectaculor drive in a very aged Lotus 49. The Lotus 72 came along for the rest of the season and admittedly it was a great car. But it was also very problematic and it took Rindt to make it great that first year. Another personal bias of mine is that I think that era (roughly the mid 60's to early 70's)had the greatest competition in terms of numbers of quality drivers that GP racing has seen. Well, reasonable people can disagree, but let's not disparage Jochen Rindt. He was great!
#21
Ray Bell
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 18:12
I think Jack's respect for Jochen was gained during the Winkleman F2 days, when Rindt had private Brabhams and was probably giving Jack a lot of feedback. Did he also race against him in the Honda F2 engine era?
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#22
Fast One
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 20:45
Most everyone I knew thought Rindt was a mess even then. I don't know anyone who rated him that highly until AFTER his death. I think he gained alot of sympathy from the posthumous champion thing. No argument about his speed. He was terrifically fast, but he was the sloppiest driver I ever saw on a race track at that time. I hardly think he was quicker than Stewart. He came off second to Surtees when they were teammates. He came off second to Rodriguez when they were teammates. And he didn't exactly destroy an aging Brabham when driving for him. Sorry, but I fail to see anything even remotely approaching greatness in him.
[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 04-09-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 04-09-2000).]
#23
Ray Bell
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Posted 09 April 2000 - 22:27
Even in that race where he won everyone's hearts at Warwick Farm in the rain, Graham Hill set fastest lap.
Looking closely at the 1970 season, too, you find that Jack's slip-up on the last lap handed Jochen the points, then at the British GP Jack ran out of fuel and let him win again - it could just as easily have been Jack's fourth title.
And fitted in nicely with his having just acquired a Ford dealership in Sydney!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
Looking closely at the 1970 season, too, you find that Jack's slip-up on the last lap handed Jochen the points, then at the British GP Jack ran out of fuel and let him win again - it could just as easily have been Jack's fourth title.
And fitted in nicely with his having just acquired a Ford dealership in Sydney!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#24
Don Capps
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Posted 10 April 2000 - 09:10
"Our Nige" is still keeping the pundits bickering even after he is now doing Other Things. I have mixed feelings about Mansell, but he did what he was expected to do in 1992, but I was far more impressed (okay, perhaps Amazed is a better word) with him in 1993. Until then, "Okay, Nige I hear you." In 1993, I was very surprised and although 1994 wasn't as good, I was actually starting to think pretty highly of him...
As for Rindt, I first saw him on a trip back to the UK in 1964. There were a series of F2 races over literally several day and he won at Crystal Palace beating all the Stars and we were all going: Who the hell is Jochen Rindt??? 1n 1966, Rindt was the only driver (in the season-ending race at Brands) to beat the Brahham-Hondas in a straight (or any other sort of) fight. Rindt was a very good driver and his win at Le Mans in 1965 with another early hero of mine, Masten Gregory, in the stuff of legends. Jenks was always down on Rindt - hence the clean-shaven look for the 1969 Mexican GP - but, did concede he did have some talent...
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…
As for Rindt, I first saw him on a trip back to the UK in 1964. There were a series of F2 races over literally several day and he won at Crystal Palace beating all the Stars and we were all going: Who the hell is Jochen Rindt??? 1n 1966, Rindt was the only driver (in the season-ending race at Brands) to beat the Brahham-Hondas in a straight (or any other sort of) fight. Rindt was a very good driver and his win at Le Mans in 1965 with another early hero of mine, Masten Gregory, in the stuff of legends. Jenks was always down on Rindt - hence the clean-shaven look for the 1969 Mexican GP - but, did concede he did have some talent...
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…
#25
Fast One
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Posted 10 April 2000 - 09:51
Well, yes, but that win at Le Mans came when all the serious iron had dropped out. But it was a magic win, and stands right in the way of my theory that Rindt couldn't keep anything on the track for more than two hours! I cosider it an aberration. Maybe whenever Rindt started feeling it and Started power sliding through Arnage and White House, they called him in and let Masten take over! I could never deal with his propensity to throw it into a corner and sort it out later. Black Jack would do that, but only when someone gave him an opening (or part of one!) and it was the only way past. Rindt made a religion of it, but all it did was slow him down.
#26
Ray Bell
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Posted 10 April 2000 - 10:09
... and yet on that wet day at Warwick Farm he was near perfect!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#27
BRG
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Posted 10 April 2000 - 17:00
DD
Mansell :-
- was the only driver to face up to Senna’s bullying and make him give way
- but was incapable of accepting blame for anything
- won WDC in the dominant car of the year
- but also won CART at first attempt against opponents in fairly equal machinery
- nearly won at Silverstone with the underpowered n/a Judd against all the turbo teams
- but marred his career with the sad McLaren episode
- only won one WDC
- but was robbed of another by the tyre failure at Adelaide
- was a real hero behind the wheel (remember him finishing a race soaked in fuel from a leaking tank)
- but whinged about everything afterwards (after one easy runaway win, he actually complained that his drinks bottle had come loose!!!)
Does he belong in your Hall of Fame? Sorry, but that’s your decision - and just as well, because I don’t know the answer either. He was an extremely good racing driver but a slightly inadequate human being.
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BRG
"all the time, maximum attack"
Mansell :-
- was the only driver to face up to Senna’s bullying and make him give way
- but was incapable of accepting blame for anything
- won WDC in the dominant car of the year
- but also won CART at first attempt against opponents in fairly equal machinery
- nearly won at Silverstone with the underpowered n/a Judd against all the turbo teams
- but marred his career with the sad McLaren episode
- only won one WDC
- but was robbed of another by the tyre failure at Adelaide
- was a real hero behind the wheel (remember him finishing a race soaked in fuel from a leaking tank)
- but whinged about everything afterwards (after one easy runaway win, he actually complained that his drinks bottle had come loose!!!)
Does he belong in your Hall of Fame? Sorry, but that’s your decision - and just as well, because I don’t know the answer either. He was an extremely good racing driver but a slightly inadequate human being.
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BRG
"all the time, maximum attack"
#28
Ray Bell
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- 80,252 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 10 April 2000 - 17:15
I think it's worth considering the pressure he was under the year he and Piquet were at it for the title. Remember, he crashed in practice for the Japan GP, where Honda were scrutinising the Williams team and any favouritism they were showing. They, after all, had apparently funded the Piquet inclusion in the team and wanted him to get the title.
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#29
Keir
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- 5,241 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 10 April 2000 - 18:00
Mansell only belongs in the "Hall of Whine".
Fast One,
I never liked Rindt either, but he was always held in high esteem by his fellow
drivers. There was and is no doubt about
the level of his talent. Jenks was way,way off on Jochen.
Peterson and Gilles are what race drivers are supposed to be, without them and drivers like them, this sport would be pretty boring.
Their fame grew after thir deaths because of the void they left behind.
------------------
"I Was Born Ready"
Fast One,
I never liked Rindt either, but he was always held in high esteem by his fellow
drivers. There was and is no doubt about
the level of his talent. Jenks was way,way off on Jochen.
Peterson and Gilles are what race drivers are supposed to be, without them and drivers like them, this sport would be pretty boring.
Their fame grew after thir deaths because of the void they left behind.
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"I Was Born Ready"
#30
Duane
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- 271 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 10 April 2000 - 18:25
A hall of fame thing should not be limited by a numbers, but by skill.
That said, I think drivers like Mansell and Damon Hill do not deserve to be there. Mansell was defeated by Prost, Rosberg and Piquest in equal cars. The Piquest is odd, because Mansell was generally quicker, but then again he was driving a car sorted by Piquest with Piquet's setups. Anyway, at the top level, Mansell is not a complete driver. His stats reflect his four seasons in what was unquestionably the best and fastest car, and he has only one title. He does not warrant direct comparison with G.Hill, Clark or Moss.
Maybe establish and honourable mention section for champions.
That said, I think drivers like Mansell and Damon Hill do not deserve to be there. Mansell was defeated by Prost, Rosberg and Piquest in equal cars. The Piquest is odd, because Mansell was generally quicker, but then again he was driving a car sorted by Piquest with Piquet's setups. Anyway, at the top level, Mansell is not a complete driver. His stats reflect his four seasons in what was unquestionably the best and fastest car, and he has only one title. He does not warrant direct comparison with G.Hill, Clark or Moss.
Maybe establish and honourable mention section for champions.
#31
CVAndrw
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- 108 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 00:04
Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger:
After Jim Clark died in April 1968 Jochen was clearly the quickest driver in F-1. He was also the absolute dominant driver in F-2 throughout this period. Not impressed?
No, nor would be Jackie Stewart, I'll wager. For what it's worth, though, Niki Lauda thought he looked "truly majestic" in his full-length fur coat, a coat that would have looked "incredibly stupid on any other man".
#32
Dennis David
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- 2,482 posts
- Joined: March 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 00:42
In a way numbers do matter when you start to include more and more drivers you dilute your collection, which is what the International Motorsports Hall of Fame has done.
Mine does not include all of the great drivers just what I feel are the best of the best. You also must remember that I must take the whole period of Grand Prix racing into account and must consider drivers from long ago. Before I can add a Mansell I must consider Ascari, Nazzaro, Benoist and of course Chiron, and maybe also Surtees.
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Mine does not include all of the great drivers just what I feel are the best of the best. You also must remember that I must take the whole period of Grand Prix racing into account and must consider drivers from long ago. Before I can add a Mansell I must consider Ascari, Nazzaro, Benoist and of course Chiron, and maybe also Surtees.
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#33
Don Capps
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- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 03:17
You also must remember that I must take the whole period of Grand Prix racing into account and must consider drivers from long ago. Before I can add a Mansell I must consider Ascari, Nazzaro, Benoist and of course Chiron, and maybe also Surtees.
DD, given your (excellent) guidance on your HoF perhaps you see it as "Next..." for Nige?
Personally, I couldn't drop any of those you've listed....
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…
[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 04-10-2000).]
#34
Dennis David
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- 2,482 posts
- Joined: March 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 03:43
I'll do like they do in Baseball and leave him for the veterans committee. ;-)
I'm leaning on Ascari, Chiron, Alf Francis and Nazarro as my next "inductees"
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
I'm leaning on Ascari, Chiron, Alf Francis and Nazarro as my next "inductees"
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#35
Eric McLoughlin
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- 1,623 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 05:04
All I know is that whenever I dig out my video's of Grand Prix races from the period 1985 to 1992, you can be guarnateed that Mr Mansell is going to be providing lots of fun and games, both on and off the track. The guy had the ability to attract attention like no other. He may have had a whining "Brummie" accent, but boring he was not. Even getting a lift back to the pits on a pickup truck was drama packed for Nige (he whacked his head off an overhead gantry if you remember). Yes - include him in the HOF.
#36
Dennis David
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- 2,482 posts
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Posted 11 April 2000 - 05:25
That's a very good reason. Pick 5 year periods and then who were the best drivers of each period and I think the 85-92 or approximate he was along with Prost and Senna one of the best. Since I am starting from 1906 and if I try to figure who were the best drivers I'll use the same rule for example 1906 to WWI, then WWII to 1933, 1934-1939, 1945-1949, 1950-1955, 1956-1960, 1961-1965, 1966-1970, 1971-1975 etc. As you can see I need to add more drivers from the period 1906-1933 and probably 1945-49 before I consider Nigel.
Hey that just gave me an idea on a new thread!
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Hey that just gave me an idea on a new thread!
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#37
Fast One
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- 600 posts
- Joined: October 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 06:49
Dennis--
You say numbers have to matter, but then how do you justify Villeneuve, whose career, measured statistically, was equivalent to Gerhard Berger's (honest)? I know folks go wild over his memory, but he was seldom spectacular, and usually either chucked the car off or broke it. In four full seasons, he only split 2-2 with his teammates, and for all of his speed only managed two poles and eight fastest laps. Yeah, I know the car was crap much of the time, but his stats compare remarkably with Berger for the equivalent number of races (4wins, 3 poles, and 8 fastest laps), and Gerhard wasn't exactly driving top shelf machinery early on (they spent roughly an equal number of races in competitive equipment.
Its okay by me if you have him there (It's YOUR Hall of Fame, after all), but you have to admit you were ruled by your heart, not by cold analysis on that one. Frankly, I think Jaques has boatloads more talent. he's as fast, as brave, and more consistent.
Peterson, too, seems like a coulda/woulda thing. And you KNOW what I think of Rindt, who couldn't get in my Hall of Fame with a ticket.
I think you have room for three more already, without an expansion draft.
You say numbers have to matter, but then how do you justify Villeneuve, whose career, measured statistically, was equivalent to Gerhard Berger's (honest)? I know folks go wild over his memory, but he was seldom spectacular, and usually either chucked the car off or broke it. In four full seasons, he only split 2-2 with his teammates, and for all of his speed only managed two poles and eight fastest laps. Yeah, I know the car was crap much of the time, but his stats compare remarkably with Berger for the equivalent number of races (4wins, 3 poles, and 8 fastest laps), and Gerhard wasn't exactly driving top shelf machinery early on (they spent roughly an equal number of races in competitive equipment.
Its okay by me if you have him there (It's YOUR Hall of Fame, after all), but you have to admit you were ruled by your heart, not by cold analysis on that one. Frankly, I think Jaques has boatloads more talent. he's as fast, as brave, and more consistent.
Peterson, too, seems like a coulda/woulda thing. And you KNOW what I think of Rindt, who couldn't get in my Hall of Fame with a ticket.
I think you have room for three more already, without an expansion draft.
#38
Dennis David
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- 2,482 posts
- Joined: March 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 07:17
The numbers I was referring to was actually who were considered the best drivers of each period and as Ferrari said you can only measure drivers of the same generation. Because a generation sadly could mean only 5 years I will break it down to 5 year periods so then it does become a numbers game as I would be leary to pick more than three drivers from any one period.
Take a driver and then tell me was he considered amongst the greatest during his 5 years at the top. In Gilles defense the drivers who raced against him considered him on another level irrespective of stats even though he in fact had not reached his peak. Ferrari compared him to Nuvolari which is enough for me.
But Fast I do admire your consistency ;-) You’ve forced me to take another look at Big John! Hey I’m reading a book very similar to The Fast Ones written by S.C.H “Sammy” Davis called Racing Motorist.
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Take a driver and then tell me was he considered amongst the greatest during his 5 years at the top. In Gilles defense the drivers who raced against him considered him on another level irrespective of stats even though he in fact had not reached his peak. Ferrari compared him to Nuvolari which is enough for me.
But Fast I do admire your consistency ;-) You’ve forced me to take another look at Big John! Hey I’m reading a book very similar to The Fast Ones written by S.C.H “Sammy” Davis called Racing Motorist.
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#39
Joe Fan
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- 5,591 posts
- Joined: December 98
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 07:22
Dennis, in my opinion Louis Chiron and Felice Nazzaro should be the next two drivers to go into your HOF. Nazzaro was the top GP driver in the early 1900's and Chiron won 16 major GP races.
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#40
buddyt
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- 161 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 07:22
If the floor is open for nominations to the hall of fame,I nominate Linda Vaughan "MISS HURST GOLDEN SHIFTER" for the at LARGE category. Her statistics have stood the test of time.... In the sixties if you were having a race at your track and Linda and the Hurst shifter car was there, it was a big event. If the Goodyear Blimp showed up, it was a big deal. If the blimp and Linda both were there, it was Indy, Daytona or Pomona.
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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"
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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"
#41
Fast One
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- 600 posts
- Joined: October 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 08:16
Dennis, I'll keep working on you, don't worry!!! I actually think with those three exceptions, and maybe Mario (that's such a close call I wouldn't argue it), your H of F is well-chosen. I like your proposed additions, too, but by your own standard, you'd better get FJ in there, he was as good as anyone in his day, a brought Ferrari back from the ATS defection by sheer force of will.
As for the drivers' opinions, remember this: participants tend to be impressed by the spectacular act, the "great play". They think, "Could I have done that?" In Gilles case, when he was well and truly on it, the answer for almost everyone was "No". I won't argue that at all. My point is, that he wasn't on it often enough to be considered great, and when he was off, which was often, he was as mediocre as anyone. Wrecking/breaking your car to no purpose but a display of sheer bravado isn't great, it's stupid.
Compare Gilles to Jack Brabham. Jack would make some absolutely kamikaze moves, terrifying, brave moves, but ONLY when there was an opportunity to pass, or something else to be gained. The rest of the time he reigned it in. THAT'S the definition of a racer to me. Speed with judgement. Jack parried that into three World Titles and lived to tell the tale. Gilles, in as many races as Stirling Moss got a tragic death and what else? He was spectacular, not great. There is a huge difference.
As for the drivers' opinions, remember this: participants tend to be impressed by the spectacular act, the "great play". They think, "Could I have done that?" In Gilles case, when he was well and truly on it, the answer for almost everyone was "No". I won't argue that at all. My point is, that he wasn't on it often enough to be considered great, and when he was off, which was often, he was as mediocre as anyone. Wrecking/breaking your car to no purpose but a display of sheer bravado isn't great, it's stupid.
Compare Gilles to Jack Brabham. Jack would make some absolutely kamikaze moves, terrifying, brave moves, but ONLY when there was an opportunity to pass, or something else to be gained. The rest of the time he reigned it in. THAT'S the definition of a racer to me. Speed with judgement. Jack parried that into three World Titles and lived to tell the tale. Gilles, in as many races as Stirling Moss got a tragic death and what else? He was spectacular, not great. There is a huge difference.
#42
Dennis David
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- 2,482 posts
- Joined: March 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 21:03
Buddy, you have a point there, actually two. ;-)
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#43
Dennis David
-
- 2,482 posts
- Joined: March 99
Member
Posted 11 April 2000 - 22:36
Fast One, all I can say is well said.
Jody would say, listen to the car (Gilles) as he was cresting a hill you would hear the revs jump as he kept his foot on the throttle needlesly stressing the engine. As long as he heard hints like that he felt he still had a chance but he knew that if, and yes it was a big if, Gilles learned to become a complete racer then it would be all over for him and the rest.
How's this Gilles is in because he was Gilles and that there's always be a place in my HoF for the spectacular as well as the sublime.
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
Jody would say, listen to the car (Gilles) as he was cresting a hill you would hear the revs jump as he kept his foot on the throttle needlesly stressing the engine. As long as he heard hints like that he felt he still had a chance but he knew that if, and yes it was a big if, Gilles learned to become a complete racer then it would be all over for him and the rest.
How's this Gilles is in because he was Gilles and that there's always be a place in my HoF for the spectacular as well as the sublime.
------------------
Regards,
Dennis David
Grand Prix History
Life is racing, the rest is waiting
#44
Frank S
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- 2,162 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 20 February 2006 - 19:18
Well, now he belongs in another:
http://www.mshf.com/
I have a forwarded email announcing Mansell as a member of the class of 2006:
Inductees for the 2006 Motorsports Hall of Fame have been announced. Champ Car and Formula 1 World Champion Nigel Mansell and NASCAR West Coast icon Hershel McGriff will lead a class of seven racing greats into the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America when the organization stages its annual induction ceremony on Thursday, August 17, 2006 at the State Theatre in Detroit. These two, along with versatile sports car driver Elliott Forbes-Robinson will join the 153 honorees already enshrined in the Motorsports Hall of Fame.
“Diversity and versatility are the hallmarks of the class of 2006. A simultaneous world and U.S. champion, NASCAR and drag racing winners from both coasts and Mid-America, a winning driver of all varieties of sports cars, a 7-time motorcycle champion turned Indy driver and the “voice of God” from the Indy Speedway – this class has it all,” says Ron Watson, president of the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America.
Although Nigel Mansell won the 1992 Formula 1 world championship, he became eligible for America’s Motorsports Hall of Fame the following year when he crossed the Atlantic to join the Champ Car World Series. In two years on the Champ Car circuit, Mansell won five races, 10 poles and the 1993 title, becoming the only driver in history to hold both the F1 world and Champ Car titles at the same time.
Hershel McGriff won the inaugural Mexican Road Race in 1950 and won four Grand National (now Nextel Cup) races in 1954 before taking a 17-year respite from the sport. He returned in 1971, won NASCAR’s Winston West championship in 1986 and is tied for third on the all-time NASCAR West win list with 35.
Popular Chris Karamesines was called the Golden Greek and was Chicago’s first professional drag racer. He has won a half dozen AHRA, one IHRA national event, five World Series of Drag Racing titles along with innumerable match races during his crowd pleasing career.
Elliott Forbes-Robinson won races and championships in many types of cars and series. He won his first race in a Shelby Cobra and won championships in Bob Sharp Racing Nissans. He won races and titles in Super Vee, Trans-Am, Can-Am, IMSA GTU, the World Challenge Championship, the American LeMans Series and the 24 Hours of Daytona.
Jeff Ward was a dominant Motocross and Supercross racer in the 1980s. He won AMA season titles for Supercross in 1985 and 1987 and Motocross in 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989 and 1990. He was the AMA Athlete of the Year in 1989. After a successful stint in Indy cars, he returned to bikes and won the 2004 SuperMoto championship on a Honda.
Colorful Curtis Turner, the only deceased member of the class of 2006, won 17 Grand National races in 180 starts from 1949 to 1968. He led the NASCAR Convertible Division during its four-year run (1956-1959) with 38 wins and 30 poles.
Tom Carnegie became the distinctive voice of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway as its public address announcer in 1946. For three generations of fans, his baritone descriptions of track activities are synonymous with the “500.”
Also on August 17th, the Motorsports Hall of Fame will honor Benny Parsons, who was elected into the Hall last year but could not attend the induction ceremonies due to the untimely death of his father. Currently an award-winning NASCAR analyst on NBC and TNT, Parsons won the 1975 Daytona 500 and the 1980 Coca-Cola 600, as well as 19 other Winston Cup races. He won the 1973 Winston Cup title and was the ARCA champion in 1968 and 1969. At Talladega in 1982, Parsons was the first NASCAR driver to qualify a car at more than 200 mph.
Tickets for the induction ceremony can be purchased by calling 1-800-250-RACE (7223).
The Motorsports Museum & Hall of Fame is operated by the Motorsports Museum and Hall of Fame of America Foundation Inc. The Motorsports Hall of Fame of America is a museum housing more than 40 racing and high performance vehicles. The constantly changing collection features racers from the world of Indy cars, stock cars, Can Am, TransAm, sprint cars, powerboats, truck racing, drag racing, motorcycles, air racing and even snowmobiles. Among the highlights are Art Arfons’ Green Monster jet car and championship NASCAR stock cars driven by Darrell Waltrip and Dale Jarrett.
Not to be mistaken for the INTERNATIONAL Motorsports Museum and Hall of Fame.
http://www.motorsportshalloffame.com/
I had no idea there were so many motorsport Hall Of Fames. Halls Of Fame. Google bowled me over.
--
Frank S
http://www.mshf.com/
I have a forwarded email announcing Mansell as a member of the class of 2006:
Inductees for the 2006 Motorsports Hall of Fame have been announced. Champ Car and Formula 1 World Champion Nigel Mansell and NASCAR West Coast icon Hershel McGriff will lead a class of seven racing greats into the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America when the organization stages its annual induction ceremony on Thursday, August 17, 2006 at the State Theatre in Detroit. These two, along with versatile sports car driver Elliott Forbes-Robinson will join the 153 honorees already enshrined in the Motorsports Hall of Fame.
“Diversity and versatility are the hallmarks of the class of 2006. A simultaneous world and U.S. champion, NASCAR and drag racing winners from both coasts and Mid-America, a winning driver of all varieties of sports cars, a 7-time motorcycle champion turned Indy driver and the “voice of God” from the Indy Speedway – this class has it all,” says Ron Watson, president of the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America.
Although Nigel Mansell won the 1992 Formula 1 world championship, he became eligible for America’s Motorsports Hall of Fame the following year when he crossed the Atlantic to join the Champ Car World Series. In two years on the Champ Car circuit, Mansell won five races, 10 poles and the 1993 title, becoming the only driver in history to hold both the F1 world and Champ Car titles at the same time.
Hershel McGriff won the inaugural Mexican Road Race in 1950 and won four Grand National (now Nextel Cup) races in 1954 before taking a 17-year respite from the sport. He returned in 1971, won NASCAR’s Winston West championship in 1986 and is tied for third on the all-time NASCAR West win list with 35.
Popular Chris Karamesines was called the Golden Greek and was Chicago’s first professional drag racer. He has won a half dozen AHRA, one IHRA national event, five World Series of Drag Racing titles along with innumerable match races during his crowd pleasing career.
Elliott Forbes-Robinson won races and championships in many types of cars and series. He won his first race in a Shelby Cobra and won championships in Bob Sharp Racing Nissans. He won races and titles in Super Vee, Trans-Am, Can-Am, IMSA GTU, the World Challenge Championship, the American LeMans Series and the 24 Hours of Daytona.
Jeff Ward was a dominant Motocross and Supercross racer in the 1980s. He won AMA season titles for Supercross in 1985 and 1987 and Motocross in 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989 and 1990. He was the AMA Athlete of the Year in 1989. After a successful stint in Indy cars, he returned to bikes and won the 2004 SuperMoto championship on a Honda.
Colorful Curtis Turner, the only deceased member of the class of 2006, won 17 Grand National races in 180 starts from 1949 to 1968. He led the NASCAR Convertible Division during its four-year run (1956-1959) with 38 wins and 30 poles.
Tom Carnegie became the distinctive voice of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway as its public address announcer in 1946. For three generations of fans, his baritone descriptions of track activities are synonymous with the “500.”
Also on August 17th, the Motorsports Hall of Fame will honor Benny Parsons, who was elected into the Hall last year but could not attend the induction ceremonies due to the untimely death of his father. Currently an award-winning NASCAR analyst on NBC and TNT, Parsons won the 1975 Daytona 500 and the 1980 Coca-Cola 600, as well as 19 other Winston Cup races. He won the 1973 Winston Cup title and was the ARCA champion in 1968 and 1969. At Talladega in 1982, Parsons was the first NASCAR driver to qualify a car at more than 200 mph.
Tickets for the induction ceremony can be purchased by calling 1-800-250-RACE (7223).
The Motorsports Museum & Hall of Fame is operated by the Motorsports Museum and Hall of Fame of America Foundation Inc. The Motorsports Hall of Fame of America is a museum housing more than 40 racing and high performance vehicles. The constantly changing collection features racers from the world of Indy cars, stock cars, Can Am, TransAm, sprint cars, powerboats, truck racing, drag racing, motorcycles, air racing and even snowmobiles. Among the highlights are Art Arfons’ Green Monster jet car and championship NASCAR stock cars driven by Darrell Waltrip and Dale Jarrett.
Not to be mistaken for the INTERNATIONAL Motorsports Museum and Hall of Fame.
http://www.motorsportshalloffame.com/
I had no idea there were so many motorsport Hall Of Fames. Halls Of Fame. Google bowled me over.
--
Frank S
#45
YankeeRacer
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- 29 posts
- Joined: June 06
New Member
Posted 27 June 2006 - 14:48
C'mon, expand the hall . If needed make seperate pages for contructors and drivers. Mansell belongs in the hall of fame. 
. If needed make seperate pages for contructors and drivers. Mansell belongs in the hall of fame.
