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Who killed the dream team?

Started by Spa One , Jan 31 2010 08:44

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70 replies to this topic

#1 Spa One

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:44

Schumacher, Todt, Brawn & Byrne.

While it seems Byrne most likely slid out on his own terms (if anyone thinks differently let me know) it is widely rumoured the remaining three did not.

Brawn did not get the position he requested after returning from his sabatical, Todt did not want his new role outside the Formula 1 team and Schumacher received pressure to move on.

It is fair to say most people on this forum feel this way, so my question is: who broke them up, and why?

No doubt many of you will be pointing the finger at Luca di Montezemolo so I guess the part of the question I am emphasising is why

Why, and do you think hindsight has tarnished these decisions or do you agree with the decisions made?

Edited by Spa One, 31 January 2010 - 08:45.

#2 Xaus

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:48

From what I've read the impression I got was Ferrari didn't want the team and personnel to stagnant. They wanted to shuffle things up and change the hierarchy and bring in fresh blood before things became rotted and end up in the pits.

Hence pushing Michael out and bringing in Raikkonen. I don't know about Todt. I think him and Montezemolo had a falling out probably over the culture of the team and how it was being run. Can't even imagine about Brawn. I'd like to think Brawn did actually leave on his own terms rather than being shown the door and politely being asked to walk through it.

#3 Spa One

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:01

From what I've read the impression I got was Ferrari didn't want the team and personnel to stagnant. They wanted to shuffle things up and change the hierarchy and bring in fresh blood before things became rotted and end up in the pits.

Hence pushing Michael out and bringing in Raikkonen. I don't know about Todt. I think him and Montezemolo had a falling out probably over the culture of the team and how it was being run. Can't even imagine about Brawn. I'd like to think Brawn did actually leave on his own terms rather than being shown the door and politely being asked to walk through it.

It has been stated that he wanted the Team Principal role upon his return from a sabatical, but was denied so said "seeya, I'm off to a rival team".

Edited by Spa One, 31 January 2010 - 09:02.

#4 Cool Beans

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:07

Wasn't there some talk of Luca not liking Todt's working style, or his character, attitude or something?

Ross Brawn's gardening leave was exactly what it means in F1 terms; the specified time you have to wait before you can work for another team. I think he had the contract with Honda(future Brawn) before he left Ferrari and just had to take the mandatory year out. IMHO.

And Byrne got old, I don't think there was any drama there. He still worked as a part time assistant to Ferrari after he left IIRC.

And Schumacher was pushed aside by Luca for some bizarre reason, he still wants to race, as you can tell from his lingering in the Ferrari pits post retirement, and also the fact that he now races again

That's my take on all the major players. I don't know why Ross left though. Was it because he didn't get the promotion? Same reason Tombazis left for Mclaren, only to return to Ferrari with the job title he wanted.

#5 Raincoat

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:10

The Italians - simples :wave:

#6 WebBerK

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:22

Why people insist on leaving Rubens out of the Dream Team.
Before and after Rubens, there was no WDC.
That means Rub was instrumental to the success of the team.

Also Martinelli, Tombasis and the ECU guy deserves the mention.

#7 glorius&victorius

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:38

Italian pride

#8 RedBaron

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:39

Why people insist on leaving Rubens out of the Dream Team.
Before and after Rubens, there was no WDC.
That means Rub was instrumental to the success of the team.

Also Martinelli, Tombasis and the ECU guy deserves the mention.

Rubens played a role. He wasn't the dream team though, just the team, that's just how it is. He was thrashed by his team mate to a pulp.

#9 ex Rhodie racer 2

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:41

Nationalism, pure and simple. It was about the team being Italian.
There has always been a desire at Ferrari to retain an Italian identity, and a reluctance to hire non Italians, I think it is fair to say, but unfortunately this policy met with a distinct lack of success after 1979, up until the assembly of the dream team. They realised they simply didn´t have the know how to produce a winning car, so they changed tack and bought the finest engineers in the business. Once they were back on track they started replacing them with a new generation of Italian engineers who had been the understudies during the renaissance, and they are once again an all Italian outfit. We could see a repeat of the old tactic once the wheels fall off the current programme though, something that already appears to be happening.
The only exception to the rule with regards Italians in key positions, was the driver line up. It was said that, as a result of the national grief following Bandini´s death in a Ferrari, Enzo was very reluctant to employ another Italian driver. This policy no longer seems prevalent though, as Rossi appears to be a top candidate if he wishes to switch to 4 wheels.

#10 Augurk

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:52

Why people insist on leaving Rubens out of the Dream Team.
Before and after Rubens, there was no WDC.
That means Rub was instrumental to the success of the team.

Also Martinelli, Tombasis and the ECU guy deserves the mention.

Rubens was lucky enough to join the team when it hit its peak. His departure coïncided with the departure of other head figures. As said above he was part of the team, not the dream team.

And to be fair, I think that Ferrari was content with the success of the team. So content in fact that I think they imagined they could "Italianize" the team without losing the success. They failed.

#11 Hairpin

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:57

Don't forget Stepney. I think he was slightly unhappy about how Ferrari treated him I would not be surprised if Luca suddenly realized that their success did not depend on "The Dream Team", it was instead an inevitable result of the superior Ferrari culture and his sublime leadership from behind the scenes.

#12 ex Rhodie racer 2

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:06

I would not be surprised if Luca suddenly realized that their success did not depend on "The Dream Team", it was instead an inevitable result of the superior Ferrari culture and his sublime leadership from behind the scenes.

You´re taking the p*ss, right? :lol:

#13 JarnoA

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:08

Byrne is still at Ferrari as a consultant.
Todt got too big for his boots, tried to take over from Luca and lost a power struggle.
Schumacher could have stayed, but didn't want to take on Kimi on equal terms.
Brawn wanted a team principal role, there wasn't one available at Ferrari.

#14 Hairpin

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:08

You´re taking the p*ss, right?

I was writing it from his point of view

#15 undersquare

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:14

I saw the dream team as a bit of a hijack, a small group of people using the Ferrari team and money as a vehicle for their ambitions. I think Monty got fed up with Todt's extremisim, like Indy 05 as we've been discussing where he helped F1 lose the US race, and drew the line at Brawn being the next TP.

Michael IIRC dithered about committing to a new contract, he was tired.

For me Ferrari is the one team that is supposed to be a national team, I think it's great that they've taken it back. Monty needs to stop interfering though. Then if the quality of the decision-making has dropped a bit that balances the extra money they get from FOM (which unfairly tips the competition in their favour obviously).

#16 jeze

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:18

I bet someone will start talking about Bella Figura soon

I support Ferrari in the decisions it has taken, the only thing that really hurt was the inability to keep Schumacher on the sidelines.

#17 Augurk

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:18

I saw the dream team as a bit of a hijack, a small group of people using the Ferrari team and money as a vehicle for their ambitions.

Seriously? They were their last life line before oblivion. They brought back Ferrari F1 from the dead. From a team so terrible that its mother company (FIAT) threatened to pull the plug on the funding if they didn't get back to success, to the most successful team in the history of the sport, now making hundreds of millions a year.

But yeah they would've been better off without 'm. Sure!

#18 Hairpin

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:21

I saw the dream team as a bit of a hijack, a small group of people using the Ferrari team and money as a vehicle for their ambitions. I think Monty got fed up with Todt's extremisim, like Indy 05 as we've been discussing where he helped F1 lose the US race, and drew the line at Brawn being the next TP.

That is true of course. But someone needed to hijack them. I guess it is also true that the urge of making Ferrari more Italian again grew stronger each year.

#19 undersquare

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:21

Seriously? They were their last life line before oblivion. They brought back Ferrari F1 from the dead. From a team so terrible that its mother company (FIAT) threatened to pull the plug on the funding if they didn't get back to success, to the most successful team in the history of the sport, now making hundreds of millions a year.

But yeah they would've been better off without 'm. Sure!

Not saying it wasn't effective.

#20 quasi C

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:26

They really should've given Brawn the Team Principle role once it was clear Todt was moving on but I really believe Ross and his family wanted to move back to England, maybe I'm wrong on that but it would make sense.

Ferrari's policies over the last 18 months have been a bit of a mess really but we shouldn't forget that the opposition has upped the ante too and that domination never lasts forever in sport.

#21 Spa One

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:31

And what effect did Todt leaving on semi-unhappy terms have on his decision to run for FIA president. And what effect will it have on his presidency?

It was the way he was more or less ousted from Ferrari that made me confident we would not see any favouritism.

#22 JarnoA

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:34

And what effect did Todt leaving on semi-unhappy terms have on his decision to run for FIA president. And what effect will it have on his presidency?

It was the way he was more or less ousted from Ferrari that made me confident we would not see any favouritism.

He will show favouritism. Just towards Mercedes instead of Ferrari.

#23 Nuvol

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:39

Its Montezemolo who did it. Cant wait to see him fail with his new wonderboy from spain :drunk:

#24 Hyatt

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:44

Don't forget Stepney.

and dont forget the FIA ...

#25 stormshadow

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 10:51

Prolly the Italian suites that killed the dream team :stoned:

#26 primer

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 11:40

Time killed the 'dream team'. Nothing lasts forever and it is impressive that they could keep it going for as many years as they did.

#27 VoidNT

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 11:59

Time killed the 'dream team'.

True, but it was also Montezemolo's strategy as well. I think Luca pushed for this because he wanted to build a stable structure guaranteeing long-term future of the team. There was a lot of talking during Team Schumacher era that Ferrari became fully dependent on 'dream team' and although it made Ferrari very strong in short term, it makes Ferrari fragile from a strategic point of view. Montezemolo believed Ferrari should grow its natural spine for itself, not rely on an implantate.

The second reason is battle for power. Luca loves power and he didn't want to hand over his Ferrari to anyone, even if such group of people proved themselves totally loyal.

#28 aditya-now

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:06

I saw the dream team as a bit of a hijack, a small group of people using the Ferrari team and money as a vehicle for their ambitions. I think Monty got fed up with Todt's extremisim, like Indy 05 as we've been discussing where he helped F1 lose the US race, and drew the line at Brawn being the next TP.

Excellent point, for me the "dream team" was a foreign junta that had hijacked the Scuderia.
It was not the spirit of Enzo Ferrari anymore, it was not the Italian spirit, it had become an international conglomerate. Very successful, but not the original Ferrari spirit.

Now, with all the weaknesses setting in again (we will see about 2010...) the team is not what it was, but it has a human face again.
For me the ugly face of the "dream team" was very visible when Schumacher and Todt came out of the team bus to face the world press after Michael´s stunt in the Monaco 2006 qualifying.
I do not want to use words to describe my impressions, but on a half conscious level it was very clear what we were all seeing in the faces of Todt and Michael.

This new incarnation is much closer to the original Ferrari soul, with all it´s mistakes and shortcomings.
So kuddos to Luca for calling it a day.

And, yes, primer, time of course played a role in it as well. Anyways, I am happy Ferrari are again what they are meant to be - like this they have always been a favorite team of mine.

#29 MPea3

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:11

Getting beat two years in a row by Renault and Alonso didn't help with the idea that the dream team was still the way to go.

#30 gio66

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:40

Schumacher, Todt, Brawn & Byrne.

& Iley & Simon & Mazzola.

IMHO

1 - Montezuma is not the great businessman that the media make the people believe for decades. He has many skeletons in the cupboard that the media now pretend not to know. If you look in the archives of the Italian press in the last 30 years you will find his name associated with more than a trouble (tags Campari-Azzurra '83, Maiocco, RCS-Carolco, Italia '90, Dino Baggio).

2 - The pair formed by Todt and Schumacher has won a lot but also took so much power within the Scuderia. It was obvious that the day they were gone we would have seen a real earthquake.

3 - I believe that Montezemolo had noticed with guilty delay that Todt had been given too much power, and especially took advantage of his position (who knows at what price it was sold the first prototype of the F50 ...). On the other hand, he is always too busy to attend events reserved for VIPs and as multi-chairman (FIAT, confederation of Italian industry, Bologna trade fair organization, LUISS University, NTV railways, FIEG press publishers); he can't think of everything.

4 - He is planning his entry into italian politics (by Berlusconi to Montezuma, who is worse? :drunk:

). He is trying to promote a false nationalism with populist aims but I think it will fail in its intent.

#31 Mungo Fangio of the Year

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:41

Getting beat two years in a row by Renault and Alonso didn't help with the idea that the dream team was still the way to go.

But it did give Luca idea that he needs Schumi beater to replace Schumi.
One of Todt's last victories over Luca was getting Kimi to Ferrari instead
of Fernando.

And we know what happened after Todt left...

#32 New Britain

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 12:54

(who knows at what price it was sold the first prototype of the F50 ...)

F50 or F40?

#33 gio66

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:06

F50 or F40?

F50, AFAIK.

#34 glorius&victorius

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:08

Excellent point, for me the "dream team" was a foreign junta that had hijacked the Scuderia.
It was not the spirit of Enzo Ferrari anymore, it was not the Italian spirit, it had become an international conglomerate. Very successful, but not the original Ferrari spirit.

Now, with all the weaknesses setting in again (we will see about 2010...) the team is not what it was, but it has a human face again.

you mean the team that for more than two decades failed to win a WDC?

#35 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:12

things in life work in cicles.
the dream team performed very good but things change...you need to shuffle things around and start another cicle..
people lose motivation, want other positions, want to work in other projects or teams.
that's how life goes

#36 stormshadow

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:15

This new incarnation is much closer to the original Ferrari soul, with all it´s mistakes and shortcomings.
So kuddos to Luca for calling it a day.

And, yes, primer, time of course played a role in it as well. Anyways, I am happy Ferrari are again what they are meant to be - like this they have always been a favorite team of mine.

Oh jeez u must have really really had a ball from '79 to '99 :drunk:

Edited by stormshadow, 31 January 2010 - 13:17.

#37 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:37

Why people insist on leaving Rubens out of the Dream Team.
Before and after Rubens, there was no WDC.
That means Rub was instrumental to the success of the team.

Also Martinelli, Tombasis and the ECU guy deserves the mention.

KR was WDC after RB left.

Rubens was lucky to join the team after the groundwork had been laid.

#38 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:40

things in life work in cicles.
the dream team performed very good but things change...you need to shuffle things around and start another cicle..
people lose motivation, want other positions, want to work in other projects or teams.
that's how life goes

That's fine, but you should change things gradually so as to not lose continuity and performance. One of the things many of us thought was that everyone would end up leaving at the same time and weaken the team. To a great extent that has been the case.

#39 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 13:43

Now, with all the weaknesses setting in again (we will see about 2010...) the team is not what it was, but it has a human face again.

Yep that Human face was really on show last year when they wanted KR out and were undermining him.

#40 dav115

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 14:05

...the ECU guy...

#41 Sausage

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 14:12

All things come to an end, that's all

#42 WebBerK

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 15:52

KR was WDC after RB left.

Rubens was lucky to join the team after the groundwork had been laid.

KR wasn't part of the dream team.

My point is MS didn't WDC alongside Irvine and Massa, only aside of Rubens.
So that makes him part of the Dream Team, bcs without that ellement there was no results [WDC for Schumy].

#43 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 15:55

KR wasn't part of the dream team.

My point is MS didn't WDC alongside Irvine and Massa, only aside of Rubens.
So that makes him part of the Dream Team, bcs without that ellement there was no results [WDC for Schumy].

No, that just means he was there at the right time. There is nothing to suggest that they would have not have obtained the same results with someone else in the second seat.

#44 WebBerK

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 16:18

No, that just means he was there at the right time. There is nothing to suggest that they would have not have obtained the same results with someone else in the second seat.

Dream Team + Rubens = MS WDC.

Dream Team - Rubens = MS not WDC.

#45 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 16:34

Dream Team + Rubens = MS WDC.

Dream Team - Rubens = MS not WDC.

And that proves what?

Rubens wasn't part of the team that took Ferrari back to top. He joined as they were peaking. Any other driver could have joined at that time and the results would be the same. Far more important people were departing the team.

#46 WebBerK

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 17:01

And that proves what?

It doesn't prove but you can't discard the possibility either.

The diference is...
Your point is a speculation and personnal oppinion.
My point is a fact that MS became WDC several times alongside Rubens.

#47 Hairpin

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 17:12

It doesn't prove but you can't discard the possibility either.

The diference is...
Your point is a speculation and personnal oppinion.
My point is a fact that MS became WDC several times alongside Rubens.

A couple of times without him as well. But your theory is strenghtened by the fact Jenson has never managed a WDC without Rubens. Hamilton on the other hand has.... Damn, how do one calculate these things? :confused:

#48 Clatter

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 17:15

It doesn't prove but you can't discard the possibility either.

The diference is...
Your point is a speculation and personnal oppinion.
My point is a fact that MS became WDC several times alongside Rubens.

But you are speculating that MS only won because RB was there.

Looking back at the results I'd say MS would have won even if Ferrari were a one car team.

Edited by Clatter, 31 January 2010 - 18:01.