Help!!
can anybody tell me , what the Aurora F1 Series was
all about ? Was the series like the britsh F3 series
and was it the series to replace f5000 ?
I have seen the results (first 6 places) on darrens page.
Aurora series
Started by
quintin cloud
, Nov 29 2000 10:33
156 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 November 2000 - 10:41
Use the search facility, put in the key word 'Aurora' and you'll find a recent thread all about it.
#3
Maldwyn
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Posted 29 November 2000 - 10:43
I remember it as a short lived British F1 championship which also included F2 cars. Rupert Keegan won it in an Arrows A1 while others competing included Emilio de Villota in a Williams FW07, Guy Edwards and Eliseo Salazar in Fittipaldi F5s, David Kennedy in a Wolf.
#4
quintin cloud
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 12:16
does anybody have results of series to complete what Darren has in his web page ?
#5
Frank de Jong
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 13:43
The Aurora championship had in my opinion 2 goals:
- replace the British F5000/F1 championship
- provide a playing ground for the many secondhand F1 cars.
Those cars were sold to many pivateer teams, and as in 1977 there was at least some room for them in the F1 WC (remember that a silly operation like John McDonalds Marches, race winners in 1976 for the works March team, could still qualify a few times in the beginning of 1977). At the end of the season, there were far to many cars in the field to have a chance to (pre)qualify for a race.
This became even worse in 1978, therefore the Aurora championship promised to be a nice steping stone for real F1. Secondhand Williams, Fittipaldi, Lotus, McLaren, Surtees, Tyrrell, Wolf and the unique Chevron should have given a great opportunity for young drivers.
Instead, too many average drivers, most of them a little too old, raced for the championship, and the quality of the young guns was probably just not good enough, like Desire Wilson, David Kennedy and the late Gordon Smiley.
- replace the British F5000/F1 championship
- provide a playing ground for the many secondhand F1 cars.
Those cars were sold to many pivateer teams, and as in 1977 there was at least some room for them in the F1 WC (remember that a silly operation like John McDonalds Marches, race winners in 1976 for the works March team, could still qualify a few times in the beginning of 1977). At the end of the season, there were far to many cars in the field to have a chance to (pre)qualify for a race.
This became even worse in 1978, therefore the Aurora championship promised to be a nice steping stone for real F1. Secondhand Williams, Fittipaldi, Lotus, McLaren, Surtees, Tyrrell, Wolf and the unique Chevron should have given a great opportunity for young drivers.
Instead, too many average drivers, most of them a little too old, raced for the championship, and the quality of the young guns was probably just not good enough, like Desire Wilson, David Kennedy and the late Gordon Smiley.
#6
LittleChris
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 14:38
Frank,
Perfectly summarised IMHO, however it's worth remembering that it, did, to some extent helped resurrect Derek Warwicks career after he won a race in 79 (?) driving an F2 car against all the F1 cars. Might have been Mallory Park.
Chris
Perfectly summarised IMHO, however it's worth remembering that it, did, to some extent helped resurrect Derek Warwicks career after he won a race in 79 (?) driving an F2 car against all the F1 cars. Might have been Mallory Park.
Chris
#7
Frank de Jong
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 15:26
In 1979 Warwick drove a private and misarable March 792, so that's quite possible.
A similar thing was done by Boy Hayje in 1978 in Zandvoort; after a false start at the Euro F2 season, he drove his Opert-Chevron, not a bad car at all, in the Zandvoort Aurora race. His start was OK, but her later dropped down in the field. It didn't revive his career at all, Dutch journalists compared Boy's commentary about missing horsepower to Jacky Ickx' epic Nürburgring practise in 1967, where his time in an F2 Matra was good enough for the front row of the grid. Too bad for Ickx that the F2 cars started in a separate section.
At the end of the season, Boy was dropped by his sponsors, who had a new favourite, Michael Bleekemolen. Boy later drove some group C and touring car races, but his career was effectively over.
A similar thing was done by Boy Hayje in 1978 in Zandvoort; after a false start at the Euro F2 season, he drove his Opert-Chevron, not a bad car at all, in the Zandvoort Aurora race. His start was OK, but her later dropped down in the field. It didn't revive his career at all, Dutch journalists compared Boy's commentary about missing horsepower to Jacky Ickx' epic Nürburgring practise in 1967, where his time in an F2 Matra was good enough for the front row of the grid. Too bad for Ickx that the F2 cars started in a separate section.
At the end of the season, Boy was dropped by his sponsors, who had a new favourite, Michael Bleekemolen. Boy later drove some group C and touring car races, but his career was effectively over.
#8
ry6
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 18:24
Can anyone remember what Aurora did? I maybe wrong but I think it was models?
Then think again and see if you think they got value for money from sponsoring the series?
Then think again and see if you think they got value for money from sponsoring the series?
#9
Leif Snellman
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 18:47
Aurora was one of the big plastic model kit manufactures from the 50s onwards. If I remember right, they also made slot cars and that could have been the reason for supporting the series.
#10
Carlos Jalife
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 19:22
Actually it was the Aurora AFX series, and Aurora made slot cars and tracks sold over the world with little F1 cars. The competition was very awkward since you could see an Ensign or a Fittipaldi beating a Williams FW07. I know because one of the biggest tongues in this side of the Atlantic, who calls the CART races for ESPN, a peruvian guy named Jorge Koechklin, claims he was in F1 and he raced with "Frank" (now Sir Frank Williams) as his boss and a bunch of lies. I had to check it out and the man drove in the Aurora series a Williams and was beaten by guys like Tony Trimmer. There are complete results in the Autocourse of every year and the series was also called the British F1 Series. And from this series also comes the claim of Desireé Wilson that she is the only woman to ever win a F1 race. (Who'd she beat? Tony plus Jorge and Emilio de Villota and a bunch of the guys you mentioned? Impressive)
Maybe Jorge Koechklin translated into southafrican language is Desireé Wilson.
Maybe Jorge Koechklin translated into southafrican language is Desireé Wilson.
#11
Jeremy Jackson
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 19:28
Hi,
I've got complete results of the Aurora AFX series in my database. Also have the Group 8 series which preceded it (76-77). If anyone's interested, let me know.
Regards
Jeremy Jackson
I've got complete results of the Aurora AFX series in my database. Also have the Group 8 series which preceded it (76-77). If anyone's interested, let me know.
Regards
Jeremy Jackson
#12
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 18 May 2001 - 21:45
Impressive you say. Well, yes it was.
Carlos, these were in fact F-1 races. They were not Grands Prix but they were F-1 races. And yes, the big teams and top drivers did not (by design) participate. And yes, there was a wide diversity in preparation and available budget to run the cars.
But the important thing to understand is the people you have named were very, very fine drivers in their own right. I raced with both Jorge and Desire (in the lesser formulae) and can tell you they were first rate. Jorge in addition to being a fine driver was one of the all time great characters and hugely popular. Desire was simply superb - one of the talents who should have made it into GP racing. And you illustrate your point about them not being much by off-handedly dissing Tony Trimmer. Do you have any idea of what a great driver Tony Trimmer was? Apparently not. And you probably won't believe me - but he was.
Carlos - this is not meant as a knock at you personally - however I believe we all should consider that there is a plethora of brilliant drivers who never got their "shot" at the right time. It may have been a sponsorship deal - or a perception by a team of who they could get an entry for (and hence starting money) - or in some cases the face just didn't fit. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time. Money has always been a factor. But these are all human beings who made a huge committment in their lives to motor sport. How about some respect?
Carlos, these were in fact F-1 races. They were not Grands Prix but they were F-1 races. And yes, the big teams and top drivers did not (by design) participate. And yes, there was a wide diversity in preparation and available budget to run the cars.
But the important thing to understand is the people you have named were very, very fine drivers in their own right. I raced with both Jorge and Desire (in the lesser formulae) and can tell you they were first rate. Jorge in addition to being a fine driver was one of the all time great characters and hugely popular. Desire was simply superb - one of the talents who should have made it into GP racing. And you illustrate your point about them not being much by off-handedly dissing Tony Trimmer. Do you have any idea of what a great driver Tony Trimmer was? Apparently not. And you probably won't believe me - but he was.
Carlos - this is not meant as a knock at you personally - however I believe we all should consider that there is a plethora of brilliant drivers who never got their "shot" at the right time. It may have been a sponsorship deal - or a perception by a team of who they could get an entry for (and hence starting money) - or in some cases the face just didn't fit. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time. Money has always been a factor. But these are all human beings who made a huge committment in their lives to motor sport. How about some respect?
#13
Barry Lake
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 07:14
Jeremy
I am interested in those race results. Thank you very much for the offer
How do I get a copy?
Barry Lake
I am interested in those race results. Thank you very much for the offer
How do I get a copy?
Barry Lake
#14
Frank de Jong
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 09:28
Mike, did you by any chance race in FF2000 in the late seventies? In Zandvoort? I'm sure I've seen "an" Argetsinger take part, don't remember the first name though (but probably Mike ;) ).Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
I raced with both Jorge and Desire (in the lesser formulae) and can tell you they were first rate.
I agree with you that Desiré was a very fine driver indeed, the FF2000 championship in the Netherlands was quite competitive at that time and Desiré was one of the top drivers.
#15
Rob Ryder
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 09:45
Jeremy
Like Barry I am interested also in those race results. Maybe a direct e-mail?
Rob
Like Barry I am interested also in those race results. Maybe a direct e-mail?
Rob
#16
sat
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 10:05
Jeremy
I am interested in those race results too.
I am interested in those race results too.
#17
Buford
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 10:27
Money has always been a factor. But these are all human beings who made a huge committment in their lives to motor sport. How about some respect?
-----------------------------------------------
Mike is 100% correct. I always had respect for the people racing below the top rank and I thought everybody else did too for 40 years. I raced in everything from the bottom rank to just below the top level and in each level and series there were people who were dreadful and there were a few who were every bit as good as those currently sitting in the top level cars.
Since the internet came along, in numerous forums I have encountered hundreds, perhaps thousands of "fans" who never had the balls to strap on a screaming projectile and hang their lives on the line, who have all these opinions on who is great and who is trash. Guess what guys? You simply can't tell from the sidelines. I can't tell from the sidelines. Nobody can tell from the sidelines. There are too many factors beyond driving talent that determines who gets the cars in the top rank, and how they do when they get there. Money, politics, luck, money again, contacts you make, and the death toll of the top level and thus how many new rides open up.
In my case, I was fortunate enough to race in an era (1970s) when a lower middle class person could still afford to get a car and if he drove like the wind and beat some guys who had superior equipment that could not be explained by any other answer than he must be a hell of a good driver, he might get a ride in a better car, and then work on up a ways. But it was also the era when the guys in the top level stopped killing themselves off at the rate of 25% or more over a five year period.
So no spots opened up for rookies with nothing but a helmet and a dream and a heavy right foot. And when the equipment at the top level started to cost more than the houses lived in by 95% of the people on the planet, car owners could not take a chance on the rookie who could not bring money.
Critical race "fans". This is not a stick and ball sport where you can get a tryout, or maybe many tryouts and can get coaching if you show a spark of talent. When I was seeking to get into CART in 1985 and we were considering taking our $250,000 pittance budget and buying two, two year old cars from Teddy Yip that included 7 engines (5 brand new), all the pit equipment, and the transporter for just the cost of the transporter $50,000. We hoped to run 7 of the road races plus Milwaukee, and hopefully show well enough to get some backing for better equipment.
I asked Mario Andretti what he thought. He said, "Do it. You can run mid-pack in the road races. There are better guys driving milk trucks in DeBuque (sp?) than half the guys out here." The deal fell through when CART changed the sidepod rules.
But anyway, race fans simply do not know who is good and who isn't. I am not saying shut up. But I am saying "WISE UP!" You simply do not know what you are talking about.
-----------------------------------------------
Mike is 100% correct. I always had respect for the people racing below the top rank and I thought everybody else did too for 40 years. I raced in everything from the bottom rank to just below the top level and in each level and series there were people who were dreadful and there were a few who were every bit as good as those currently sitting in the top level cars.
Since the internet came along, in numerous forums I have encountered hundreds, perhaps thousands of "fans" who never had the balls to strap on a screaming projectile and hang their lives on the line, who have all these opinions on who is great and who is trash. Guess what guys? You simply can't tell from the sidelines. I can't tell from the sidelines. Nobody can tell from the sidelines. There are too many factors beyond driving talent that determines who gets the cars in the top rank, and how they do when they get there. Money, politics, luck, money again, contacts you make, and the death toll of the top level and thus how many new rides open up.
In my case, I was fortunate enough to race in an era (1970s) when a lower middle class person could still afford to get a car and if he drove like the wind and beat some guys who had superior equipment that could not be explained by any other answer than he must be a hell of a good driver, he might get a ride in a better car, and then work on up a ways. But it was also the era when the guys in the top level stopped killing themselves off at the rate of 25% or more over a five year period.
So no spots opened up for rookies with nothing but a helmet and a dream and a heavy right foot. And when the equipment at the top level started to cost more than the houses lived in by 95% of the people on the planet, car owners could not take a chance on the rookie who could not bring money.
Critical race "fans". This is not a stick and ball sport where you can get a tryout, or maybe many tryouts and can get coaching if you show a spark of talent. When I was seeking to get into CART in 1985 and we were considering taking our $250,000 pittance budget and buying two, two year old cars from Teddy Yip that included 7 engines (5 brand new), all the pit equipment, and the transporter for just the cost of the transporter $50,000. We hoped to run 7 of the road races plus Milwaukee, and hopefully show well enough to get some backing for better equipment.
I asked Mario Andretti what he thought. He said, "Do it. You can run mid-pack in the road races. There are better guys driving milk trucks in DeBuque (sp?) than half the guys out here." The deal fell through when CART changed the sidepod rules.
But anyway, race fans simply do not know who is good and who isn't. I am not saying shut up. But I am saying "WISE UP!" You simply do not know what you are talking about.
#18
Vitesse2
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 10:27
Jeremy:
Me too please!
Me too please!
#19
Carlos Jalife
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 17:07
Well Mike, I believe you Tony Trimmer being good but never the less, all those guys running in the Aurora weren't exactly world beaters for whatever reasons. And if you were running a Williams and got beaten by Ensigns and Theodores and what have you, it says a lot about your hability which is the main point with Jorge. He is very simpatico as we say but if he says he drove in F1, it means F1, not the British series or the Aurora series or whatever. I think that is highly misleading, specially for a professional broadcaster. Can a guy like Rodolfo Junco say he ran F1 because he ran historic F1 races with a Williams? They were F1 races too. I think not and the same goes for Aurora, it is not F1, it was a series for old F1 cars. I 've driven a F1 too and GT and sports cars from the 60s & 70 mainly but I never had more money than for racing FVee cars and the odd Touring one. I've rallied on both sides and karting and I just never thought I'd pursue the field since I wore glasses and no drivers I knew did (later I found about Masten and Andrea D'Adamich) and for me it is terribly funny to see all these guys say they were world beaters when they wera lapping 10 or 15 seconds away from F1 PP times. Lots of people can do that. I do agree heartily that you deserve a lot of respect for strapping up and getting there but if you then go about bragging that you were so good in a second hand series and loose track of what your real level was, not the one you imagine in your head, then you lose all respect from fans and pros alike. Everybody could have been a world champ if....., but it didn't happen and it is so tiring hearing or reading all those stories about "if I had the Williams that Alan Jones had I could have beaten everybody" (and so could about a million other guys). Yeah sure, legends in their own mind. So again, who did Desirée beat? I mean she didn't even run F1 ans she says she won a F1 race. There's a Peter principle in life and people refuse to accept they have reached it anywhere in any field. It is human, and so it is to respect achievemente but not bragging about what you didn't do or what you might have done if ....
And if only those who have strapped up can talk about the guys who strap up well I guess I qualify, and people have been killed in FVee too, althought he thought never crossed my mind, I wasn't going that fast, just all the car could give.
And if anyone feels insulted, I am very deeply sorry, not meant to be that way. I ope I didn't nbreak any rules.
For me it is funny to see those distortions of records, of running in a second class series and pretending you ran F1 which is the pinnacle of sport. It makes me laugh. I thought it would make you too. Sorry again.
And if only those who have strapped up can talk about the guys who strap up well I guess I qualify, and people have been killed in FVee too, althought he thought never crossed my mind, I wasn't going that fast, just all the car could give.
And if anyone feels insulted, I am very deeply sorry, not meant to be that way. I ope I didn't nbreak any rules.
For me it is funny to see those distortions of records, of running in a second class series and pretending you ran F1 which is the pinnacle of sport. It makes me laugh. I thought it would make you too. Sorry again.
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#20
Buford
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 17:23
Carlos - I understand your point about bragging about something and making it sound better than it was, to con the uninformed. But at least they did in fact get out there, as did Mike, as did you and as did I. A driver can only drive up to the limit of the car. Maybe even a teeny beyond that limit and catch it and bring it back repeatedly.
IMO, many of those people who say, "If I had that car, I could have done as well or better." may be right. If they could have driven the car to it's limits, they probably could have.
What ticks me off is people who never drove anything on these forums bad mouthing those who do it. I don't mean saying Michael S. is clearly better than Marc Gene or something. Or CART drivers are clearly superior to IRL ride buyers. That is fair observation. I am talking about the massive trash talking in the forums about this guy or that guy sucks. Nobody who runs the cars we know about suck. Some are just one or two eye blinks a lap faster than the others.
IMO, many of those people who say, "If I had that car, I could have done as well or better." may be right. If they could have driven the car to it's limits, they probably could have.
What ticks me off is people who never drove anything on these forums bad mouthing those who do it. I don't mean saying Michael S. is clearly better than Marc Gene or something. Or CART drivers are clearly superior to IRL ride buyers. That is fair observation. I am talking about the massive trash talking in the forums about this guy or that guy sucks. Nobody who runs the cars we know about suck. Some are just one or two eye blinks a lap faster than the others.
#21
Jeremy Jackson
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 21:37
Hi chaps,
To those who requested the Aurora results, I guess the best (quickest) way is for me to make an excel for each year.
If I can trouble you to e-mail me directly, and I should be able to get the files to you. Just give me a day or so and that should do it.
Regards
Jeremy
To those who requested the Aurora results, I guess the best (quickest) way is for me to make an excel for each year.
If I can trouble you to e-mail me directly, and I should be able to get the files to you. Just give me a day or so and that should do it.
Regards
Jeremy
#22
LittleChris
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 23:24
Quick reponse to Carlos about us four eyed people, but didn't Gilles have to wear glasses, even though it's never been particularly publicised ?!?
#23
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 23:28
Carlos - no sorries necessary. I was trying to make a point and on reflection perhaps seemed to be criticizing you. Which was not my intention. You know I have great respect for you and your point of view. You and I had corresponded long before either of us ever discovered this forum. The point though that needs to be made - and I think Buford said it a lot better than I did - is that far too many drivers get written off when the true circumstances are not known. There are so many variables in this sport. And I stick to my point that there is - and always has been - a lot more talent out there than can ever hope to make the top. I think one of the seductive things about motor racing is that on paper there appears to be a "ladder" to climb - just as in tennis let's say - where if you excel at a given level you have a reasonable expectation of moving to the next level. It just doesn't happen in racing. I have seen people win championships - even dominate a series - and next year they are sitting on the sidelines. This is just the way it is. I learned to accept it long ago. But I think - as Buford said - that at every level there are a handful of people who could advance given the opportunity. I will go all the way back to my earliest days of racing to make this point - I started racing dirt track stock cars on the small tracks in upstate New York. That's all I could afford and I wanted desperately to race. I did this for four years so I saw a fair amount of it. I will honestly tell you that there were drivers there - they may still be there for all I know! - with as much talent as anyone I ever encountered in the so-called loftier levels of the sport. Anyway it's just my point of view and not intended to be self serving. I did what I did in racing and am proud of the modest accomplishments I achieved along the way. No regrets here. My biggest accomplishment I sometimes think is that I'm still doing it!
#24
LittleChris
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Posted 19 May 2001 - 23:48
Mike, Potential here for a good thread - Drivers who should've got into GP's but didn't for one reason or another !?
Personally I'd go for Kelvin Burt from recent times. Loads of talent, top bloke, quicker than both Irvine & Barrichello when he eventuallly got a run in a Jordan after paying an awful lot of money to do so.
Tony Trimmer, another that never really got a chance.
Same with Geof Lee's.
Being English, these are the one's that stand out, but I'm sure everybody else from their various countries has nominees.
Chris
Personally I'd go for Kelvin Burt from recent times. Loads of talent, top bloke, quicker than both Irvine & Barrichello when he eventuallly got a run in a Jordan after paying an awful lot of money to do so.
Tony Trimmer, another that never really got a chance.
Same with Geof Lee's.
Being English, these are the one's that stand out, but I'm sure everybody else from their various countries has nominees.
Chris
#25
Felix Muelas
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Posted 20 May 2001 - 21:41
Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
I've got complete results of the Aurora AFX series in my database. Also have the Group 8 series which preceded it (76-77). If anyone's interested, let me know.
Jeremy
I promise I will be grateful and (hopefully) will be able some time to reciprocate
Will you include my name, please, in the list of the future recipients of your stats?
Thanks
Felix
#26
Carlos Jalife
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Posted 20 May 2001 - 23:42
Well, sorry if I seemed disrespectful. By the way, I saw an Argetsinger in the Watkins Glen 6 Hours lists this weekend, was it you Mike? Great you can still do it at that level!
;)
Jeremy, please add me to the list since there were several latinamerican guys who ran there and whose records are a bit incomplete without the Aurora AFX
And about Gilles, well he used glasses but that was already 1978 and I only found out a lot later about GV, In 1978 I was into other things by then (I managed rock bands, and also I couldn't be a musician since no musicians used glasses -but that was my cop-out, my brother was much better at keyboards than me).
That thread Lil Chris thought of seems neat. We all know someone who was better than some other who got there. We don't need to go that far as Kelvin Burt, just look at the man who beat both Luciano Burti and Jenson Button and he is unemployed because he couldn't even get the Indy Lights seat a mexican driiver took with lots of sponsorship (and good results too) Marc Hymes or something.
;)
Jeremy, please add me to the list since there were several latinamerican guys who ran there and whose records are a bit incomplete without the Aurora AFX
And about Gilles, well he used glasses but that was already 1978 and I only found out a lot later about GV, In 1978 I was into other things by then (I managed rock bands, and also I couldn't be a musician since no musicians used glasses -but that was my cop-out, my brother was much better at keyboards than me).
That thread Lil Chris thought of seems neat. We all know someone who was better than some other who got there. We don't need to go that far as Kelvin Burt, just look at the man who beat both Luciano Burti and Jenson Button and he is unemployed because he couldn't even get the Indy Lights seat a mexican driiver took with lots of sponsorship (and good results too) Marc Hymes or something.
#27
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 04:29
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carlos Jalife
I saw an Argetsinger in the Watkins Glen 6 Hours lists this weekend, was it you Mike? Great you can still do it at that level!
;)
Thanks Carlos. Yes (he said modestly) I can still do it at that level but in this case it was my brother Peter in the 6-Hour race at Watkins Glen. Since you brought it up I will take the perogative of brotherly pride to tell you that Peter put in an amazing drive in qualifying. Pete was there to coach two drivers running their first pro race and to qualify the car and drive the opening stint. For those familiar with Grand Am classes they were running in the GT class in a Porsche RSR. Of 19 (mostly Porsches with a couple of BMW's) GT cars in the total field of 39 starters there's was the only RSR - which is at least two generations removed from being the Porsche of the moment. Anyway qualifying was in the pouring rain and Pete got in the car for the first time all weekend - he put it 16th on the grid (in practice it had been never higher than 33rd) and was ahead of many of the prototypes, etc. He's a remarkable driver and a great guy.
Frank - also in this thread you said you remember an Argetsinger in FF2000 at Zandvoort in the 70's. It could be either Peter or me that you remember. I actually only did a few FF2000 races at that time (although I have been running in that class off and on in recent years) as I was mostly in Formula Ford 1600 then. Pete did a lot more FF2000 races than me and also a lot of F-3. He won a major British FF championship and has enjoyed a dsitinguished racing record and reputation.
There were a lot of great Dutch drivers at that time and I became friends with many of them. I first went to Zandvoort for the Grand Prix in 1966 (I was working for Cooper) and was there for many GP's in the following years. I first raced there in 1971 and for the last time in 1977. It's one of the greatest ever circuits in my book. During about three years of that time I lived in Amsterdam.
Some of the closest friends I made - and raced with - at that time who you would remember are Ari Luyendyk (and his dad Joop), Michael Bleekemoelen (who I always personally thought was the best of them all), Jim, Luik, and Huub Vermeulen, Peter Van Ispelen (who I shared a garage for our race cars in Haarlem with), Artur van Dedem, Martin Henneman, Jan Lammers (and also Rob Slotemaker who was a very nice guy although I never raced with him) and others who I can't think of this late at night. Please forgive if I msspelled a name or two. It's late and I can't take the time to look up the names. The fact is that I was always treated great by all those guys. There were three main series that I was contesting at that time and they were the German Championship, the Benelux Championship, and the European Championship and many of these guys I have mentioned also ran in all three.
I hope this qualifies as nostalgia. At least it is for me. Thanks for your interest.
I saw an Argetsinger in the Watkins Glen 6 Hours lists this weekend, was it you Mike? Great you can still do it at that level!
;)
Thanks Carlos. Yes (he said modestly) I can still do it at that level but in this case it was my brother Peter in the 6-Hour race at Watkins Glen. Since you brought it up I will take the perogative of brotherly pride to tell you that Peter put in an amazing drive in qualifying. Pete was there to coach two drivers running their first pro race and to qualify the car and drive the opening stint. For those familiar with Grand Am classes they were running in the GT class in a Porsche RSR. Of 19 (mostly Porsches with a couple of BMW's) GT cars in the total field of 39 starters there's was the only RSR - which is at least two generations removed from being the Porsche of the moment. Anyway qualifying was in the pouring rain and Pete got in the car for the first time all weekend - he put it 16th on the grid (in practice it had been never higher than 33rd) and was ahead of many of the prototypes, etc. He's a remarkable driver and a great guy.
Frank - also in this thread you said you remember an Argetsinger in FF2000 at Zandvoort in the 70's. It could be either Peter or me that you remember. I actually only did a few FF2000 races at that time (although I have been running in that class off and on in recent years) as I was mostly in Formula Ford 1600 then. Pete did a lot more FF2000 races than me and also a lot of F-3. He won a major British FF championship and has enjoyed a dsitinguished racing record and reputation.
There were a lot of great Dutch drivers at that time and I became friends with many of them. I first went to Zandvoort for the Grand Prix in 1966 (I was working for Cooper) and was there for many GP's in the following years. I first raced there in 1971 and for the last time in 1977. It's one of the greatest ever circuits in my book. During about three years of that time I lived in Amsterdam.
Some of the closest friends I made - and raced with - at that time who you would remember are Ari Luyendyk (and his dad Joop), Michael Bleekemoelen (who I always personally thought was the best of them all), Jim, Luik, and Huub Vermeulen, Peter Van Ispelen (who I shared a garage for our race cars in Haarlem with), Artur van Dedem, Martin Henneman, Jan Lammers (and also Rob Slotemaker who was a very nice guy although I never raced with him) and others who I can't think of this late at night. Please forgive if I msspelled a name or two. It's late and I can't take the time to look up the names. The fact is that I was always treated great by all those guys. There were three main series that I was contesting at that time and they were the German Championship, the Benelux Championship, and the European Championship and many of these guys I have mentioned also ran in all three.
I hope this qualifies as nostalgia. At least it is for me. Thanks for your interest.
#28
Buford
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 04:36
Carlos. Have you ever heard of Dr. Vicente Alvarez from Argentina?
#29
quintin cloud
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 06:17
Jeremy Jackson where can one see your database on the net 
#30
Kuwashima
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 06:24
Carlos, just to correct something you said:
And then she was at Kyalami in a Tyrrell during 1981, qualifying 16/19. But in the race, she did even better, at one stage running ahead of the likes of Andrea de Cesaris, Nigel Mansell and Alan Jones. She lasted 52 of the 77 laps, and was even briefly coming 6th. No mean feat.
(Of course, due to political wranglings, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Renault and Talbot Ligier didn't turn up and the race was later deprived of championship status.)
To be fair to Desire, she DID in fact make it to F1. Twice in fact! She raced in a Williams at Brands Hatch in 1980, unfortunately DNQ-ing (along with Lammers and Keke Rosberg).Yeah sure, legends in their own mind. So again, who did Desirée beat? I mean she didn't even run F1 and she says she won a F1 race.
And then she was at Kyalami in a Tyrrell during 1981, qualifying 16/19. But in the race, she did even better, at one stage running ahead of the likes of Andrea de Cesaris, Nigel Mansell and Alan Jones. She lasted 52 of the 77 laps, and was even briefly coming 6th. No mean feat.
(Of course, due to political wranglings, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Renault and Talbot Ligier didn't turn up and the race was later deprived of championship status.)
#31
quintin cloud
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 07:58
the Kyalami 1981 event was a Non-championship race which Ferrari , Alfa Romeo and Renault Boycotted 
#32
Kuwashima
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 10:11
Look hard please, quintin, I did actually include that fact ;)
However that doesn't change the nature of her achievement, racing against and holding her own with drivers of that calibre in an F1 race that was only designated non-championship after it had been run.
However that doesn't change the nature of her achievement, racing against and holding her own with drivers of that calibre in an F1 race that was only designated non-championship after it had been run.
#33
quintin cloud
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 10:28
Yes I know , I only saw that after pushed the Submit Reply Button 
#34
Kuwashima
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 10:47
OK, sorry
Just making sure Desire wasn't being slandered any more than she already has been in this thread
Just making sure Desire wasn't being slandered any more than she already has been in this thread
#35
Vitesse2
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 11:09
Just being pedantic, but if you write it down, it's libel! It's only slander if you say it out loud in the presence of witnesses (who presumably aren't deaf! )
Isn't the English language wonderful?
)Isn't the English language wonderful?
#36
Rob29
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 14:26
Sorry,but this is not so.The 1981 South African GP was downgraded to non-championship BEFORE it took place.Was replaced by 1st San Marino GP.Originally posted by Kuwashima
Look hard please, quintin, I did actually include that fact ;)
However that doesn't change the nature of her achievement, racing against and holding her own with drivers of that calibre in an F1 race that was only designated non-championship after it had been run.
1980 Spanish GP (Jarama) was the only one to have its points taken away AFTER it took place.
#37
Kuwashima
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 14:54
Oh, I see! Are you 100% sure about that, Rob29?? Well, sorry if I got that wrong.
Maybe that explains why Ken Tyrrell was willing to give Desire a go in the first place!!!
Maybe that explains why Ken Tyrrell was willing to give Desire a go in the first place!!!
#38
Rob29
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 17:52
Actually I believe Desire paid for the drive with a local sponsor.Tiff Needell was also there with helmet & overalls,as reserve if Ms Wilson's funds did not materialise. Seems Ken had to run who had the most money.Nothing changes.
#39
Carlos Jalife
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 18:00
To Buford, no, but I'm sure I should or you wouldn't bring it up. How do I get in touch with him?
The reason i said she didn't run in F1 is she never qualified. It's like Jacques (Gilles brother) who also tried but didn't so he didn't race in F1, and in that british GP 1980 there were many DNQs including Emilio de Villota who also had a Williams and is now the editor of Car & Driver in Spain. The reason she ran in South Africa was that she married a south african and had lots of contacts there, wan't it so?
And a linguistic question. If you write it in internet is it still libel or does it just apply to print?
The reason i said she didn't run in F1 is she never qualified. It's like Jacques (Gilles brother) who also tried but didn't so he didn't race in F1, and in that british GP 1980 there were many DNQs including Emilio de Villota who also had a Williams and is now the editor of Car & Driver in Spain. The reason she ran in South Africa was that she married a south african and had lots of contacts there, wan't it so?
And a linguistic question. If you write it in internet is it still libel or does it just apply to print?
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#40
Rob29
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 18:08
He was Autosport's South American correspondent in the 50s. Possibly the 3rd Argentine I had heard of after Fangio & General Peron!Originally posted by Buford
Carlos. Have you ever heard of Dr. Vicente Alvarez from Argentina?
#41
Vitesse2
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 18:37
Rob29: (Vitesse2 peeps over wall) Wot no Froilan Gonzalez??
#42
Buford
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Posted 21 May 2001 - 20:44
To Buford, no, but I'm sure I should or you wouldn't bring it up. How do I get in touch with him?
He was Autosport's South American correspondent in the 50s. Possibly the 3rd Argentine I had heard of after Fangio & General Peron!
Yes that is correct. He was a very good friend of our family. He was the chief surgeon for Kaiser Industries in Argentina and a racing journalist. He stayed at our house often when he was in the US. He wrote for Automundo Magazine in that country and got us press passes at US races and we sent him photos for the articles. That was one of our scams to get total access at races. I thought you might have known him or who he was because you write about Hispanic racing people.
Dr. Alvarez was the person most seriously injured in the phtotgrapher stand pace car crash at Indy in 1971. He recovered after a couple years rehabilitation but never was able to return to medicine. He knew Fangio very well and they had been friends for years. But I never could get any good stories out of him because they had a major falling out over the Peron political situation. Alvarez was a ardent anti-Peronist and Fangio had been on the other side. So everytime I'd hit him up for Fangio stories he would start off on the political stuff. Dr. Alvarez died a couple years ago after a long and interesting life.
He was Autosport's South American correspondent in the 50s. Possibly the 3rd Argentine I had heard of after Fangio & General Peron!
Yes that is correct. He was a very good friend of our family. He was the chief surgeon for Kaiser Industries in Argentina and a racing journalist. He stayed at our house often when he was in the US. He wrote for Automundo Magazine in that country and got us press passes at US races and we sent him photos for the articles. That was one of our scams to get total access at races. I thought you might have known him or who he was because you write about Hispanic racing people.
Dr. Alvarez was the person most seriously injured in the phtotgrapher stand pace car crash at Indy in 1971. He recovered after a couple years rehabilitation but never was able to return to medicine. He knew Fangio very well and they had been friends for years. But I never could get any good stories out of him because they had a major falling out over the Peron political situation. Alvarez was a ardent anti-Peronist and Fangio had been on the other side. So everytime I'd hit him up for Fangio stories he would start off on the political stuff. Dr. Alvarez died a couple years ago after a long and interesting life.
#43
quintin cloud
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Posted 22 May 2001 - 06:13
Yesterday I got the data from Jeremy Jackson ,and all can say thanks you have done one excellent job with loging Aurora series data, 
Question 1:
I see that the Cosworth BDA engine was used by F2 entrys , is this Cosworth BDA a Ford Kent block reworked to 2.0 l with BDA head
Question 2:
How or what was points system for the Aurora Series, was there points for Pole position and Fastest lap
Once again a special thanks must go out to Jeremy Jackson
Question 1:
I see that the Cosworth BDA engine was used by F2 entrys , is this Cosworth BDA a Ford Kent block reworked to 2.0 l with BDA head
Question 2:
How or what was points system for the Aurora Series, was there points for Pole position and Fastest lap
Once again a special thanks must go out to Jeremy Jackson
#44
quintin cloud
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Posted 23 May 2001 - 06:10
next question :
In Darrens site there is a listing of a race that was run on the 15th April '79 at Brands Hatch, but there was also race that was run 13th April '79 at Oulton Park , now I'm guessing that the 13 April was a Good Friday race meeting and the 15 April race was run on Easter Sunday race meeting, now is this true and can someone help complete result
Round 3
April 15, 1979 - Brands Hatch
105 miles - 40 laps of 2.614 mile circuit
1. Guy Edwards (GB) 3.0 Fittipaldi F5A-Cosworth
2. Bernard de Dryver (B) 3.0 Fittipaldi F5A-Cosworth
3. Desire Wilson (ZA) 3.0 Tyrrell 008-Cosworth
4. Gordon Smiley (USA) 3.0 Tyrrell 008-Cosworth
5. Giacomo Agostini (I) 3.0 Williams FW06-Cosworth
6. Val Musetti (I) 3.0 March 771-Cosworth
7. Robin Smith (GB) 3.0 Ensign MN02-Cosworth
FQ Rupert Keegan (GB)
FL Rupert Keegan (GB)
In Darrens site there is a listing of a race that was run on the 15th April '79 at Brands Hatch, but there was also race that was run 13th April '79 at Oulton Park , now I'm guessing that the 13 April was a Good Friday race meeting and the 15 April race was run on Easter Sunday race meeting, now is this true and can someone help complete result
Round 3
April 15, 1979 - Brands Hatch
105 miles - 40 laps of 2.614 mile circuit
1. Guy Edwards (GB) 3.0 Fittipaldi F5A-Cosworth
2. Bernard de Dryver (B) 3.0 Fittipaldi F5A-Cosworth
3. Desire Wilson (ZA) 3.0 Tyrrell 008-Cosworth
4. Gordon Smiley (USA) 3.0 Tyrrell 008-Cosworth
5. Giacomo Agostini (I) 3.0 Williams FW06-Cosworth
6. Val Musetti (I) 3.0 March 771-Cosworth
7. Robin Smith (GB) 3.0 Ensign MN02-Cosworth
FQ Rupert Keegan (GB)
FL Rupert Keegan (GB)
#45
Rob29
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Posted 23 May 2001 - 06:31
That Brands Hatch race was combined with F1 (FOCA) Race of Champions,which was postponed from March due to snow. I think this meeting was originally scheduled for Monday,but this clashed with Thruxton F2. Seems Thruxton had no problem clashing with Aurora F1 but FOCA F1 was another matter.
#46
quintin cloud
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Posted 23 May 2001 - 08:13
thanks Rob I was through my data and I forgot for a minute about the race of champions event 
just for the record for those who do not have the result here it is:
Race of Champions
15 April 1979, Brands Hatch, England, 40 laps
Lap Distance=2.61 miles. Race Distance=104.54 miles.
1 Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari 312T3 '033' 53m17.12, 117.72mph
2 Nelson Piquet Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT48 '1' 53m31.19
3 Mario Andretti Lotus-Cosworth 79 'R4' 40 laps
4 Jochen Mass Arrows-Cosowrth A1 '05' 40 laps
5 Niki Lauda Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT48 '2' 39 laps
6 Elio de Angelis Shadow-Cosworth DN9 '4B' 39 laps
7 Guy Edwards Copersucar-Cosworth F5A '2' 39 laps
8 Bernard De Dryver Copersucar-Cosworth F5A '3' 39 laps
9 Desire Wilson Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 '3' 38 laps
10 Smiley Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 38 laps
11 Giacomo Agostini Williams-Cosworth FW06 '1' 38 laps
12 Val Musetti March-Cosworth 771 36 laps
13 Robin Smith Ensign-Cosworth MN02 36 laps
Fastest Lap: Nelson Piquet (Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT48), 1:17.46, 121.47mph
Did Not Finish:
Rupert Keegan Arrows-Cosworth A1 'B' 35 laps/engine
Emilio de Villota Lotus-Cosworth 78 '1' 34 laps/engine
Philip Bullmann Surtees-Cosworth TS20 24 laps/spin
John Watson McLaren-Cosworth M28 '2' 18 laps/gearbox
Tiff Needell Chevron-Cosworth B41 16 laps/accident
David Kennedy Theodore-Cosworth WR4 DNS/gearbox
Qualifying
1 1 Mario Andretti Martini Racing Team Lotus Lotus-Cosworth 79 1m17.52
2 5 Niki Lauda Parmalat Racing Team Brabham-Cosworth BT48 1m17.76
3 12 Gilles Villeneuve Scuderia Ferrari SEFAC SpA Ferrari 312T3 1m17.85
4 6 Nelson Piquet Parmalat Racing Team Brabham-Cosworth BT48 1m17.98
5 30 Jochen Mass Warsteiner Arrows Racing Team Arrows-Cosworth A1 1m18.93
6 18 Elio de Angelis Shadow Racing Team Shadow-Cosworth DN9B 1m19.57
7 7 John Watson Marlboro Team McLaren McLaren-Cosworth M28 1m20.30
8 Position left vacant to separate "F1" cars from Aurora series cars
9 56 Rupert Keegan Charles Clowes Racing Arrows-Cosworth A1 1m20.65
10 41 Desire Wilson Melchester Racing Team Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 1m20.80
11 6 Guy Edwards Mopar Ultramar Racing Team Copersucar-Cosworth F5A 1m09.90
12 32 Emilio de Villota Madom Formula 1 Team Lotus-Cosworth 78 1m21.67
13 51 David Kennedy Theodore Racing with Hi-Line Theodore-Cosworth WR4 1m22.35
14 52 Philip Bullmann John Surtees Garages Surtees-Cosworth TS20 1m22.41
15 46 Tiff Needell Durex-Eden-Award Racing Chevron-Cosworth B41 1m22.50
16 49 Giacomo Agostini Team Agostini Marlboro Williams-Cosworth FW06 1m22.60
17 42 Smiley Melchester Racing Team Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 1m23.20
18 45 Bernard de Dryver Mopar Ultramar Racing Team Copersucar-Cosworth F5A 1m23.44
19 47 Val Musetti Valentino Musetti March-Cosworth 771 1m25.61
20 63 Robin Smith Smith and Jones Ensign-Cosworth MN02 1m26.67
62 Gerd Biechteler Walz Toj Racing Match-Cosworth 781 DNQ
just for the record for those who do not have the result here it is:
Race of Champions
15 April 1979, Brands Hatch, England, 40 laps
Lap Distance=2.61 miles. Race Distance=104.54 miles.
1 Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari 312T3 '033' 53m17.12, 117.72mph
2 Nelson Piquet Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT48 '1' 53m31.19
3 Mario Andretti Lotus-Cosworth 79 'R4' 40 laps
4 Jochen Mass Arrows-Cosowrth A1 '05' 40 laps
5 Niki Lauda Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT48 '2' 39 laps
6 Elio de Angelis Shadow-Cosworth DN9 '4B' 39 laps
7 Guy Edwards Copersucar-Cosworth F5A '2' 39 laps
8 Bernard De Dryver Copersucar-Cosworth F5A '3' 39 laps
9 Desire Wilson Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 '3' 38 laps
10 Smiley Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 38 laps
11 Giacomo Agostini Williams-Cosworth FW06 '1' 38 laps
12 Val Musetti March-Cosworth 771 36 laps
13 Robin Smith Ensign-Cosworth MN02 36 laps
Fastest Lap: Nelson Piquet (Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT48), 1:17.46, 121.47mph
Did Not Finish:
Rupert Keegan Arrows-Cosworth A1 'B' 35 laps/engine
Emilio de Villota Lotus-Cosworth 78 '1' 34 laps/engine
Philip Bullmann Surtees-Cosworth TS20 24 laps/spin
John Watson McLaren-Cosworth M28 '2' 18 laps/gearbox
Tiff Needell Chevron-Cosworth B41 16 laps/accident
David Kennedy Theodore-Cosworth WR4 DNS/gearbox
Qualifying
1 1 Mario Andretti Martini Racing Team Lotus Lotus-Cosworth 79 1m17.52
2 5 Niki Lauda Parmalat Racing Team Brabham-Cosworth BT48 1m17.76
3 12 Gilles Villeneuve Scuderia Ferrari SEFAC SpA Ferrari 312T3 1m17.85
4 6 Nelson Piquet Parmalat Racing Team Brabham-Cosworth BT48 1m17.98
5 30 Jochen Mass Warsteiner Arrows Racing Team Arrows-Cosworth A1 1m18.93
6 18 Elio de Angelis Shadow Racing Team Shadow-Cosworth DN9B 1m19.57
7 7 John Watson Marlboro Team McLaren McLaren-Cosworth M28 1m20.30
8 Position left vacant to separate "F1" cars from Aurora series cars
9 56 Rupert Keegan Charles Clowes Racing Arrows-Cosworth A1 1m20.65
10 41 Desire Wilson Melchester Racing Team Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 1m20.80
11 6 Guy Edwards Mopar Ultramar Racing Team Copersucar-Cosworth F5A 1m09.90
12 32 Emilio de Villota Madom Formula 1 Team Lotus-Cosworth 78 1m21.67
13 51 David Kennedy Theodore Racing with Hi-Line Theodore-Cosworth WR4 1m22.35
14 52 Philip Bullmann John Surtees Garages Surtees-Cosworth TS20 1m22.41
15 46 Tiff Needell Durex-Eden-Award Racing Chevron-Cosworth B41 1m22.50
16 49 Giacomo Agostini Team Agostini Marlboro Williams-Cosworth FW06 1m22.60
17 42 Smiley Melchester Racing Team Tyrrell-Cosworth 008 1m23.20
18 45 Bernard de Dryver Mopar Ultramar Racing Team Copersucar-Cosworth F5A 1m23.44
19 47 Val Musetti Valentino Musetti March-Cosworth 771 1m25.61
20 63 Robin Smith Smith and Jones Ensign-Cosworth MN02 1m26.67
62 Gerd Biechteler Walz Toj Racing Match-Cosworth 781 DNQ
#47
Frank de Jong
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Posted 23 May 2001 - 12:15
The Aurora series is, apart from drivers and races, interesting in another way. Some cars competed which never raced in FIA F1, but are genuine F1 cars anyway.
The Chevron B41 is mentioned in some other threads before, but what about the unique pair of March 781's? A great F2 car, paired with a Cosworth DFV, I'm curious what that car in the right hands could have achieved in FIA F1.
Other unique cars are the McGuire BM1, the Dywa F1 and the SurteesTS21.
The Chevron B41 is mentioned in some other threads before, but what about the unique pair of March 781's? A great F2 car, paired with a Cosworth DFV, I'm curious what that car in the right hands could have achieved in FIA F1.
Other unique cars are the McGuire BM1, the Dywa F1 and the SurteesTS21.
#48
Allen Brown
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Posted 23 May 2001 - 12:58
Frank
The Chevron B41 got its only experience of F1 in Aurora but the second March 781 did at least turn up to a GP but was sent home by Bernie. The 781 was just a F2 782 tub with the rear end of a 771 welded onto it. I doubt it would have scared anyone in GPs.
The McGuire was just a renamed Williams FW04. The Surtees TS21 never got off the drawing board but TS20/02 was modified to "TS20+" specification with its planned sidepods.
Allen
The Chevron B41 got its only experience of F1 in Aurora but the second March 781 did at least turn up to a GP but was sent home by Bernie. The 781 was just a F2 782 tub with the rear end of a 771 welded onto it. I doubt it would have scared anyone in GPs.
The McGuire was just a renamed Williams FW04. The Surtees TS21 never got off the drawing board but TS20/02 was modified to "TS20+" specification with its planned sidepods.
Allen
#49
Vitesse2
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Posted 23 May 2001 - 22:12
Funny how these threads tie in together!
Went to David Hodges' book on Formula cars to take a look at the Surtees TS20 entry and found a picture of a slightly self-conscious looking JS standing by a brand new TS20 with very prominent Durex branding and in front of a sign that reads "The latest package from LRC Products Ltd"!!!
On a sadder note, this thread brought to mind the fact that Brian McGuire was killed in the BM1 at Brands Hatch. It's a bit macabre I know, but it set me wondering - apart from Bruce McLaren, which other drivers have died in cars bearing their own name?
Went to David Hodges' book on Formula cars to take a look at the Surtees TS20 entry and found a picture of a slightly self-conscious looking JS standing by a brand new TS20 with very prominent Durex branding and in front of a sign that reads "The latest package from LRC Products Ltd"!!!
On a sadder note, this thread brought to mind the fact that Brian McGuire was killed in the BM1 at Brands Hatch. It's a bit macabre I know, but it set me wondering - apart from Bruce McLaren, which other drivers have died in cars bearing their own name?
#50
Racer.Demon
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Posted 24 May 2001 - 21:57
Originally posted by Rob29
Sorry,but this is not so.The 1981 South African GP was downgraded to non-championship BEFORE it took place.Was replaced by 1st San Marino GP.
1980 Spanish GP (Jarama) was the only one to have its points taken away AFTER it took place.
The story of the 1981 South African GP was included in a recent 8W game - near the bottom of this page...
