Red Bull and McLaren team strategy

With two races to go, Webber and Hamilton now have a significant proportion of the 50 points remaining in hand over their team-mates. Alonso, now the championship leader, already has support from Massa. Should Red Bull and McLaren start favouring their leading drivers?

Edited by midgrid, 24 October 2010 - 11:53.

Personally I'd prefer to see them fight until the end. If Alonso wins this championship by less than 7 points there will be a bitter taste amoungst F1 fans regarding the blantant rule breaking in Germany.

Edited by se7en_24, 24 October 2010 - 11:54.

What do you mean favouring? They have !!the same equipment!!. Qualifying is on low fuel. And team orders are as we all know - disgusting, forbidden and non existent for many years (until Hockenheim this year).
Seriously, of course they should but:
- in McLaren's case - faster car in needed
- in Red Bull's case - it's not going to happen - Horner, Marko and co. apparently would rather see Alonso winning driver's championship. The way Horner talks recently seems like they have one driver (Vettel) leading the standings and some other driver way down below. I hope they lose both championships - losing even one would be some achievement with the car they have.

It's too early for team orders

According to the teams

Here is another way to phrase the same question:
1. Should Vettel give up?
2. Should Button give up?

These are competitive sportsmen. I hope the answer is "never" for both of them (and all other drivers) as long as they are still mathematically in with a chance. What a ridiculous question. Think about it.

Here is another way to phrase the same question:
1. Should Vettel give up?
2. Should Button give up?

These are competitive sportsmen. I hope the answer is "never" for both of them (and all other drivers) as long as they are still mathematically in with a chance. What a ridiculous question. Think about it.

It's not a ridiculous question. If you're going to play the odds, the answer has to be a clear yes. You think about it.

It's not a ridiculous question. If you're going to play the odds, the answer has to be a clear yes. You think about it.

Ludicrous. You never give up. Nobody knows the odds. As long as you have a mathematical chance, you never give up. It's so simple.

Red Bull have just shot themselves this year.Hope Adrian Newey doesnt start losing his motivation.

Edited by vivian, 24 October 2010 - 13:34.

These are competitive sportsmen.

Sitting in a piece of machinery worth hundreds of millions of dollars (of other peoples money) & built by a TEAM of hundreds of people. Sure they are highly competitive individuals, but there comes a time when the TEAM needs to maximise its result or miss out completely... and unfortunately that time is now.

Personally I think RB have to support both Webber & Vettel since they have a very good car than can get the job done for them with either driver but @ McLaren Jenson should him self realize that its over for him and he should start playing for the team since MP4-25 is no RB or Ferrari.

I've a feeling Button is more likely to help Hamilton voluntarily than for Vettel to do likewise for Webber - certainly at Brazil, and at Abu Dhabi it will depend on Brazil anyway.

If Button was immediately ahead of Hamilton at Brazil I would think he would let Hamilton through if the other contenders are still in the race, maybe not if they are out of it.

Not sure whether I would see Vettel do the same for Webber in a similar position.

Sitting in a piece of machinery worth hundreds of millions of dollars (of other peoples money) & built by a TEAM of hundreds of people. Sure they are highly competitive individuals, but there comes a time when the TEAM needs to maximise its result or miss out completely... and unfortunately that time is now.

The TEAM maximizes its results by hiring drivers who don't give up when they have a mathematical chance. WDC-calibre drivers will never let go of a mathematical chance to win, and they should never be asked to. Never being asked to is how they retain their edge and mental toughness. Being surrounded by people who constantly ask them to give up based on the "odds" even when there's a mathematical chance is not how they cultivate and maintain their mental toughness.

Fortunately, they aren't surrounded by forum members who voted "yes" on this poll, and instead are surrounded by winners themselves - they won't be asked to sacrifice anything as long as the team continues to want two WDC-calibre drivers. If they want and are OK with one subservient driver and another WDC-calibre driver, that's a different matter. This season, neither RBR or McLaren have that approach - so sorry, you aren't going to see any team strategies supporting any driver.

The TEAM maximizes its results by hiring drivers who don't give up when they have a mathematical chance. WDC-calibre drivers will never let go of a mathematical chance to win, and they should never be asked to. Never being asked to is how they retain their edge and mental toughness. Being surrounded by people who constantly ask them to give up based on the "odds" even when there's a mathematical chance is not how they cultivate and maintain their mental toughness.

Fortunately, they aren't surrounded by forum members who voted "yes" on this poll, and instead are surrounded by winners themselves - they won't be asked to sacrifice anything as long as the team continues to want two WDC-calibre drivers. If they want and are OK with one subservient driver and another WDC-calibre driver, that's a different matter. This season, neither RBR or McLaren have that approach - so sorry, you aren't going to see any team strategies supporting any driver.

Well, I agree in part. But a driver can increase his team mate's mathematical chances by letting him through. Button's chances are slim, as all but a deluded few must agree. He strikes me as more of a team player than anyone else in the top 5.

Red Bull cannot possibly make Vettel No2 after this race where Webber fell off and Vettel was on for the win. Just not on the cards, and it's only 14 points anyway.

But at McLaren, whether we ever get to hear about it or not Jenson is not gonna be allowed to take points off Hammy now. Whatever brave words he may say.

Well, I agree in part. But a driver can increase his team mate's mathematical chances by letting him through. Button's chances are slim, as all but a deluded few must agree. He strikes me as more of a team player than anyone else in the top 5.

I don't see JB as a team player at all, I must admit. He seems a standard-issue 100% self-centred F1 driver to me. I'd put Lewis and Felipe ahead on that list, as Lewis showed at Suzuka.

But the teams will decide anyway, I can't see it being left to the drivers.

In the current situation. yes both Button and Vettel should play supporting rules but:

1) Button is rarely in a position to be able to benefit Hamilton, unless he can qualify better that won't change.

2) I just can't see Red Bull instructing Vettel to move over for Webber.

After a catastrophic day in Korea for Red Bull, where both Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber retired, the team’s boss said both drivers will still be given a clear run to the Abu Dhabi finale.

A smarter strategy might be to fully back Webber, who is 11 points shy of Fernando Alonso’s new championship lead, while Vettel is asked to play a supporting role due to his 25 point deficit.

"It would be wrong to do that. Our strategy will be to push both drivers," a dejected Horner told BBC television in Korea.

Button will help Hamilton ’voluntarily’ - Whitmarsh

"For us, the strategy is clear," McLaren’s Martin Whitmarsh is quoted by Auto Motor und Sport. "We don’t really have to say anything to our drivers.

"Jenson will offer his help to Hamilton voluntarily, because he knows that we have treated him fairly throughout the year. And because he knows that he will win now only with a miracle," added the Briton.

Red Bull’s Mark Webber and Vettel are separated by a smaller points margin, but Whitmarsh said "logic dictates that all the eggs are now put in the Webber basket".

"But this team’s heart beats for Vettel," he insisted. "There has been so much unrest that I am not expecting a clear statement from them."

If in the final race vettel is 1st, webber 2nd, alonso 3rd and webber needs 1st to win the title, vettel out of it.. they have to let him pass. I don't care what the team say about favourtism.. in that scenario, to not let him pass would just be the ultimate screw up and I hope Vettel would use his own common sense and move over.

Red Bull cannot possibly make Vettel No2 after this race where Webber fell off and Vettel was on for the win. Just not on the cards, and it's only 14 points anyway.

But at McLaren, whether we ever get to hear about it or not Jenson is not gonna be allowed to take points off Hammy now. Whatever brave words he may say.

I swear th emath escapes people. It's not 14 points, it's what 20 something to Alonso. Short of Alonso having problems in both races and Seb winning both ... Seb is done.

Red Bull cannot possibly make Vettel No2 after this race where Webber fell off and Vettel was on for the win. Just not on the cards, and it's only 14 points anyway.

But at McLaren, whether we ever get to hear about it or not Jenson is not gonna be allowed to take points off Hammy now. Whatever brave words he may say.

Anything can happen in the last 2 races.
If Alonso's engine blows, Vettel can win the Championship with 2 wins...

Don't see the point. Hamilton in usual circumstances will be ahead of Button, Vettel in usual circumstances will be ahead of Webber. Both those drivers have a decent shot should the Ferrari fail.

If I was Horner I would keep my cars close together ontrack and unless Alonso retired, I 'd inform Vettel that Webber is faster 2 laps before the end of the race in Brazil . Pay $100,000 and collect #1 for 2011.

McLaren are the underdogs but they have the advantage of Button not being really close to Hamilton lately. So they may not have so much "strategy" to implement.

Don't see the point. Hamilton in usual circumstances will be ahead of Button, Vettel in usual circumstances will be ahead of Webber. Both those drivers have a decent shot should the Ferrari fail.

On the other hand, a couple of Red Bull 1-2s, with Seb following home Webber, will guarantee the title for Red Bull regardless of results elsewhere. There's no need for the team to take the gamble on the off-chance that something goes wrong with Alonso's car.

So much relies on which cars turn up the quickest for Interlagos and Abu Dhabi. They're both oddball tracks to a certain extent -- if for some reason the Ferrari is slower during practice in Brazil than both Red Bulls and both Mclarens, then the calculations suddenly look a bit more flexible.

Edited by Risil, 24 October 2010 - 16:52.

On the other hand, a couple of Red Bull 1-2s, with Seb following home Webber, will guarantee the title for Red Bull regardless of results elsewhere. There's no need for the team to take the gamble on the off-chance that something goes wrong with Alonso's car.

Seb leads Webber, Hamilton gets in the mix, Seb wins title. Both drivers have a shot at it, let them race.

Red Bull need to go only for 1-2s, Webber-Vettel. They don't need to pay 100000$ for this, they can make it very elegant. Mateschiz is not were he is because he is stupid, Ferrari show him the way and they know what to do. Don't think he will throw success only to help Vettel? Which now is lost cause. Sad but this is situation. If they don't go for Webber they will be the stupidest team in F1 and they don't deserve Adrian Newey car.

A former boss of mine once told me: "Everyone has to kiss some arse in his life... the important thing is to kiss the right arse"

The problem at RBR is that they should have supported Webber long ago. By now, the championship could have been in his bag. But they kissed the wrong arse. Worringly, they like the taste of that arse, 'cuz they don't seem to correct the mistake.

McLaren made the same mistake in 2007: they backed the rookie instead of his proven teammate and theya served both championships on a silver tray to Ferrari. Had Hamilton's team mate still been Kovalainen, they would have had no qualms about which driver to favour, but with two Brits in the team things got a bit out of control, and now it is perhaps too late.

IMO, the problem is that all these drivers behave like prima donnas, and not like salaried employees who are out there to do a job: maximize the chances of a team to bag both the WDC and the WCC.

At Ferrari they had this clear all along: Enzo famously treated his drivers no better than any other material factor in his chase for the championships. And thus Ferrari is the most successful team out there. Their strategy will eventually prove right.

BTW, I have voted no on both questions. Guess why?

If they don't go for Webber they will be the stupidest team in F1 and they don't deserve Adrian Newey car.

Yes, they probably are and no, they don't.

What do you mean favouring? They have !!the same equipment!!. Qualifying is on low fuel. And team orders are as we all know - disgusting, forbidden and non existent for many years (until Hockenheim this year).

Red Bulls - No. Both still has chance.

Mclaren - Yes. Button himself said he is now out of contention.

Button's situation appears totally hopeless to me. In fact, it appears to be a lot worse than Räikkönen's situation was with two races to go in 2007. Here's why:

• Both drivers needed at least a win and a 2nd place to have any chance at all.
  
• With two wins for Räikkönen two drivers could still beat him:
  

  Hamilton with a 5th, two 7th or a 6th place.
  Alonso with two 2nd places.
  

• With two wins for Button four drivers can still beat him:
  

  Alonso with a 6th, two 8th or a 7th and a 10th place.
  Webber with for example two 5th places.
  Hamilton with a 2nd and a 4th place or two 3rd places.
  Vettel with two 2nd places.

• Furthermore, I'd say that it was quite realistic to expect two wins from Räikkönen. This cannot be said about Button.
  
• Finally, Räikkönen had the full support of his teammate while Button is on his own.

Lewis is out of this championship.

It's between the Bulls and Alonso...

Lewis only hope is that Alonso's engine blows at the next race and McLaren manage a 1-2.

If Button gets his act together and Lewis doesn't mess up, they will be able to secure 2nd place in the constructors championship. I doubt they will win the constructors championship this year tbh.

Red Bull

It'd be unfair for them to support either driver at this point. It'd be different if one driver was clearly outperforming the other on a race-to-race basis, but this isn't the case. Supporting Webber would be stupid if it turns out that Vettel is the faster of the two in the coming races and vice versa. Both drivers still have a decent shot at the title considering the car they have.

Mclaren

They need to support Lewis and I have no doubt they will if it comes to it. Lewis has proven the better driver and Jenson is essentially out of the battle for the title. But really, Lewis is good enough to where there probably wont be any situation where the team have to resort to team orders or favoritism to keep him in front of Button, so its probably a moot point.

If Button cannot qualify ahead of or right behind Hamilton then he is of no use to him, plain and simple.

The irony here, is that McLaren actually needs to put everything behind Button, so that he can improve his qualifying pace, race pace, and get his head back into the game...otherwise McLaren will likely drop to 3rd in the WCC standings.

In all honesty, the only person or thing that can help Hamilton win the WDC is someone accidentally taking out Alonso, or Alonso's engine self-destructing. On top of that, McLaren needs to produce a car that can qualify in pole position with a few tenths to spare, however the likelyhood of that happening is slim. IF Webber and Alonso are close to one another in the next race, I predict fireworks, and that may very well play into Hamilton's hands if he isn't too far off the pace.

As a Hamilton and McLaren fan, I predict that Hamilton will end the season 2nd in the WDC and McLaren will hold on to 2nd place in the WCC by a hair. All in all, it's not so bad when you consider the MP4-25 is the third best car on the grid.

Edited by WIC, 24 October 2010 - 21:40.

If Button cannot qualify ahead of or right behind Hamilton then he is of no use to him, plain and simple.

Not true, he just needs to stay out without pitting until those who do catch up, and then he holds them while Hamilton tries something.
He'll never do that, though.


edit: The last time Webber beat Vettel when both finished was Hungary. Then came Spa and there were still 6! races to go. And Vettel beat Webber three straight times. Even if Vettel's wasn't Marko's golden child, how would they ever justify the decision when they had the best car and there were 150 points on table? Not to mention Webber wasn't behind him at Monza for a potential swap, at Singapore he wasn't even close and at Suzuka it would have meant stealing Vettel's sure win while he was much more in the battle than Massa ever was at Hockenheim. Imagine the outcry!

That's why I understand but find it unreasonable when poeple say Red Bull should have backed Webber after Spa. Maybe after Monza or Singapore, if he had beat Vettel, but...

Edited by Atreiu, 24 October 2010 - 21:52.

I voted no for Webber, yes for Hamilton. Button is well out of it now, but RBR may be better putting their eggs in two baskets.

Wow, extremely surprised at the poll results considering the amount of outrage Ferrari got a few races ago. Just like after Germany, all Mclaren/Red Bull teammates are mathematically still in the championship. However, it seems that many agree that Ferrari did the right thing after all.

Edited by fabr68, 24 October 2010 - 21:50.

Wow, extremely surprised at the poll results considering the amount of outrage Ferrari got a few races ago. Just like after Germany, all Mclaren/Red Bull teammates are mathematically still in the championship. However, it seems that many agree that Ferrari did the right thing after all.

Wow, extremely surprised at the poll results considering the amount of outrage Ferrari got a few races ago. Just like after Germany, all Mclaren/Red Bull teammates are mathematically still in the championship. However, it seems that many agree that Ferrari did the right thing after all.

Watch out what happens next:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87739

When asked if the team would consider swapping positions between its drivers in Brazil to give Webber a bigger haul, Horner said: "I haven't had time to look at all the mathematics and scenarios, but it is something that we will look at pretty closely between now and Brazil.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87740

When asked if Button would now play a supporting role for Hamilton, Whitmarsh said: "I think at the moment we will think about that. I think we have had a disappointing day with Jenson, but Lewis is still clearly very much in the hunt. Mathematically it is not impossible for Jenson but it looks quite tough. Very difficult for him. We will talk about that before Brazil."

Hurrah for hypocrisy

Watch out what happens next:
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87739



http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87740


Hurrah for hypocrisy

Hypocrisy when comparing disperate situations? You have to ignore a cluster of facts first for that to fully work.

Edited by ImDDAA, 25 October 2010 - 09:58.

Hypocrisy when comparing disperate situations? You have to ignore a cluster of facts first for that to fully work.

Don't ask me to look for exact quotes on how Red Bull and McLaren will "never-ever-no-matter-what" use team orders as long as both of their drivers have title chances.

Wow, extremely surprised at the poll results considering the amount of outrage Ferrari got a few races ago. Just like after Germany, all Mclaren/Red Bull teammates are mathematically still in the championship. However, it seems that many agree that Ferrari did the right thing after all.

Ferrari issued team orders half way through the season when Massa was still very much in the title hunt. If he was allowed to have win the German GP he would have only been a handful (nine, i think) of points behind Alonso, with hundreds of points still to play for. Redbull and McLaren find themselves in a completely different situation, you're trying to compare apples and oranges and justify Ferrari's actions for cheap points, nothing more.

^ agreed

When the question of "supporting" one driver is asked, I assume it only really relates to switching the drivers if they find themselves running together. Cases where the team don't have enough parts to equip both cars are rare, so you'd expect both drivers to be getting equal support on that score as there's no point in disadvantaging one of your cars.

On the "old switcheroo" in Brazil question:

McLaren

If Jenson's ahead and they aren't running 1/2, he is out of the WDC (he must win both races to have a mathematical chance). So in any situation at Brazil where they are running together outside the top 2, I would expect them to order Jenson to let Lewis pass.

If they are running 1/2 in Brazil, then Alonso has to be 6th or worse and Webber 4th or worse for Jenson to still be in with a shout. And even then he would likely need an Alonso and Webber DNF in Abu Dhabi, and what are the chances of that? So again I would expect them to order Jenson to let Lewis pass.

Red Bull
If Vettel is one position ahead of Webber and Alonso's ahead of them both, Vettel is out of the WDC. So they definitely switch.

If Alonso is behind them then they need to see how many points Vettel is going to gain on him. Whilst 1 point puts Vettel in the WDC hunt, he would need a win and an Alonso retirement in Abu Dhabi to get it. Even 10 points (eg Vettel P1, Alonso P3) would still see Alonso only needing a 4th in Abu Dhabi to beat Vettel. I think the gap needs to be more than 15 points to make it worthwhile. Any less than that and they go to Abu Dhabi with the WDC out of their hands: no matter how well Red Bull perform (eg a 1/2) Alonso can still take the WDC with a third. If Vettel takes more than 15 points off Alonso in Brazil then a Red Bull 1/2 in Abu Dhabi secures them the WDC.

So I think in pretty much all situations, other than a Red Bull 1/2 and an Alonso retirement, Red Bull should definitely switch its drivers. Arguably even in those circumstances, they ought to do so.

Personally I'd prefer to see them fight until the end. If Alonso wins this championship by less than 7 points there will be a bitter taste amoungst F1 fans regarding the blantant rule breaking in Germany.

how many wdc has micheal won???

I think there is at least one big twist to come, it could be an Alonso engine failure or maybe Alonso and Webber taking eacher other out. Maybe Rain in Brazil could catch Alonso out in the pit stops, who knows. I just can't see the next two races being straight forward for anyone.

I can see things getting heated in the next two races. Hamilton just needs to keep his nose out of trouble. Button is out of it, this is way worse than the Kimi 07 senario.

I have a feeling Vettel will still out score Webber.

There will be one more big twist! I can smell it!

Ferrari issued team orders half way through the season when Massa was still very much in the title hunt. If he was allowed to have win the German GP he would have only been a handful (nine, i think) of points behind Alonso, with hundreds of points still to play for. Redbull and McLaren find themselves in a completely different situation, you're trying to compare apples and oranges and justify Ferrari's actions for cheap points, nothing more.

What is so different about the situation?

Both Hamilton/Button and Webber/Vettel are still in the hunt for the championship and just like Alonso/Massa in Germany.

Who knew that both Vettel and Webber were going to be out at Korea? Anything can happen in Brazil and Abu Dhabi

Apples to apples. It just looks like many are starting to accept the fact that "cheap points" are nice and sweet.

Edited by fabr68, 25 October 2010 - 12:12.

Ferrari issued team orders half way through the season when Massa was still very much in the title hunt. If he was allowed to have win the German GP he would have only been a handful (nine, i think) of points behind Alonso, with hundreds of points still to play for. Redbull and McLaren find themselves in a completely different situation, you're trying to compare apples and oranges and justify Ferrari's actions for cheap points, nothing more.

no body asked massa not to tail alonso all the way....
truth is that, alonso is faster than massa and woud have passed him ne ways, but the team and alonso didnt want a collision just like webber and vettel!!!!

wat u expect that ferrari back massa for the championship???
he is not as good as he was in 2008. there was passion that time....
im not an alonso fan, but im ferrari supporter....

all i want is massa to be back fighting with alonso, this is the only way we can win the wcc.......

and one more thing, BS to all those people who cried in germany, if they resort to the same.

What is so different about the situation?

Both Hamilton/Button and Webber/Vettel are still in the hunt for the championship and just like Alonso/Massa in Germany, they are still in.

Who knew that both Vettel and Webber were going to be out at Korea? Anything can happen in Brazil and Abu Dhabi

Apples to apples. It just looks like many are starting to accept the fact that "cheap points" are nice and sweet.

Basically everyone is a hypocrite. But in truth it was the manner in which Ferrari issued the order that annoyed alot of people.

I imagine the difference will be that Vettel and Button will be given the team order before the race, which helps to disguise the team order as the driver can say it was their own decision or they can make up some silly excuse.

I think Button will give way to Hamilton if needed.

Not sure about Vettel.

Edited by Olly F1, 25 October 2010 - 12:14.

My opinion is that Button should not move aside for Hamilton if the situation arises at the next race, but if the last race has Button mathematically out, then of course he should let Hamilton through if it somehow helps Hamilton do better in the final standings than he would otherwise do. Considering that both McLarens are likely to be 4th and 5th in the WDC this season going on present form, I don't think it makes a bit of difference what either of them do. If Button can help Hamilton end up 3rd instead of 4th, then yes, Button should let him through so long as it does not demote Button from 4th to 5th somehow. Ie, if it doesn't hurt Button in the final standings he should do what he can for Lewis.

Vettel and Webber should fight to the end unless somehow one pulls ahead by more than 25 points at the next race. Ie, unless mathematically out, they should race.

Depending on the race results in Brazil, RB and Mc might form a Briton alliance to stop Ferrari winning the title.

I see Button helping Lewis.

I don't see neither RB driver helping each other.