Road Cars vs F1

I was just watching the Monterrey Historics highlights on TV and I got to wondering... Clearly, the fastest road cars today like the new Mclaren and other semi-track specials like the 430 Scuderia and 911 GT3RS are massively quick by street standards. However, what era F1 cars would they match up with favorably in terms of lap times on an average F1 track like Barcelona? Obviously current F1 cars and anything from the last 40 years, back to things like the Ferrari 312B and Lotus 72 would be much, much faster, but there has to be a point where the modern technology and power of the street cars matches the F1s, I'm thinking the pre-wing 3L cars of '66-'67... Then again, a Lotus 49 is a very fast machine... If not that, then surely an Enzo or Pagani Zonda would lap faster than a 1.5L car from the early 60s?

Edited by Dan333SP, 06 November 2010 - 20:20.

Problem is no tracks have remained the same over the years to make a comparison...

The racing version of the 911 used in the Supercup is 30 seconds a lap slower than a modern F1 around Interlagos.

And even modern F3 cars with all their downforce aren't much faster than an early 70s F1 car.

So a road car? You'd have to go back to the 50s and 60s. Then you'd have cars of equal(ish) power but one is a lot lighter...

nordschleife

I was just watching the Monterrey Historics highlights on TV and I got to wondering... Clearly, the fastest road cars today like the new Mclaren and other semi-track specials like the 430 Scuderia and 911 GT3RS are massively quick by street standards. However, what era F1 cars would they match up with favorably in terms of lap times on an average F1 track like Barcelona? Obviously current F1 cars and anything from the last 40 years, back to things like the Ferrari 312B and Lotus 72 would be much, much faster, but there has to be a point where the modern technology and power of the street cars matches the F1s, I'm thinking the pre-wing 3L cars of '66-'67... Then again, a Lotus 49 is a very fast machine... If not that, then surely an Enzo or Pagani Zonda would lap faster than a 1.5L car from the early 60s?

That would be my guess too.

There is an episode of Top gear where they compare the laptimes of three high performance sedan cars and a Lotus F1 car from 1972 with similar kind of horsepower. The results were as follows:

1. Lotus 1972 F1: 2:15.16

2. BMW M3: 2:38.9

3. Mercedes C63: 2:44.0

4. Audi RS4: 2:44.5

But the Lotus has slicks while the others had their standard tires. Interesting that the two most powerful cars are the slowest, I guess BMW just have superior handling with their M cars.

On the Top gear test track, a M3 does a 1:25,3 while the fastest road car at the moment, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport does a 1.16.8. On a one minut longer circuit it be closer to 15 seconds a lap faster and with slick tires we are probably not so far of the 1972 F1 car.

Edit. link:

Edited by Arn, 06 November 2010 - 21:01.

Problem is no tracks have remained the same over the years to make a comparison...

Well, I know a direct comparison of a current road car and a mid 60s F1 machine in its prime with its best driver on a good day is impossible for obvious reasons, but I was trying to see what you guys thought rather than any actual facts as such data would be unavailable. Even the Lotus 72 they used in Top Gear was being driven by the Stig on historic Avons, it probably would have lapped much faster if it were Rindt or Emerson with the then-quickest qualifying slicks. The more I think about it, the more it seems likely that it'd be the 1.5L cars that could match current road cars, unless you're on a power circuit where the Zondas of this world could stretch their legs.

What the older F1 cars would lose in straight line performance (to say a Veyron, Mclaren F1 or an Enzo for example) they more than make up for that in the corners.

The rate at which an F1 car can take a corner (low CoG, little mass and a beautiful balance) old or new still beggars belief.

I think many hypercars like Zondas and Veyrons have caught up to older F1 cars in terms of straight line speed but just get smashed to pieces in the corners.

I would guess pre downforce or early downforce cars are matches for today's hypercar exotica.

nordschleife

Group C Sportscars: 202.1 km/hr
20,832 m
6:11.13
Porsche 956
Stefan Bellof
28 May 1983
Pole position for 1983 1000k Sports Car race

1983 F2: 193.2 km/hr
20,832 m
6:28.3
March-BMW 832
Christian Danner
24 April 1983
pole-position for 1983 F2 race

Non-Production, Street Legal: 184.0 km/hr
20,832 m
6:47.50
Pagani Zonda R
750 PS (552 kW; 740 hp) and 710 N·m (520 ft·lbf) / dry weight 1,070 kg (2,400 lb)
Marc Basseng
29 June 2010

1967 F1 (pre-wing 3L): 169.8 km/hr
22,805 m
8' 01.4"
Lotus 49 Cosworth
Jim Clark
6 August 1967
Pole position for 1967 German GP

Production: 169.6 km/hr
20,832 m
7:22.1
Dodge Viper ACR (2009)
Tom Coronel
18 August 2008
Chrysler conducted test, Hardcore Package option.

1967 F2: 166.4 km/hr
22,805 m
8' 14.0"
Matra MS5 Cosworth
Jacky Ickx
6 August 1967
Best F2 qualification for 1967 German GP

Edited by nordschleife, 09 November 2010 - 04:37.

I think that Goodwood Revival times can be used to compare these cars. Professional drivers like Pirro or Herbert are driving these cars and we can compare their lap times in old Lotus/Alfa/Ferrari/BRM to Formula Fords from the 70s and these FFords are still racing on Brands Hatch ;)
A modern FFord is miles faster than any road going supercar and it's more or less a design from the 60s:)

Group C Sportscars
20,832 m
6:11.13
Porsche 956
Stefan Bellof
28 May 1983
Pole-position for 1983 1000k Sports Car race

F1
22,835 m
6:58.6
Ferrari 312T
Niki Lauda
2 August 1975
pole-position for 1975 German Grand Prix

Production
20,832 m
7:22.1
Dodge Viper ACR (2009)
Tom Coronel
18 August 2008
Chrysler conducted test,[8] Motor Trend confirmed, Hardcore Package option.

Non-Production, Street Legal
20,832 m
6:47.50
Pagani Zonda R
750 PS (552 kW; 740 hp) and 710 N·m (520 ft·lbf) / dry weight 1,070 kg (2,400 lb)
Marc Basseng
29 June 2010

Thanks for that, very, very interesting.

When looking at those Nurburgring times, keep in mind how much the track has changed in terms of both layout and surface over the years. Nearly impossible to compare the time set by Lauda's Ferrari to anything today due to course changes... FWIW, BMW claimed that their simulator predicted a lap near 5 minutes flat if the 2008 machine was allowed to run there for lap times.

... there has to be a point where the modern technology and power of the street cars matches the F1s, I'm thinking the pre-wing 3L cars of '66-'67... Then again, a Lotus 49 is a very fast machine...

Post #9 has been edited to throw as much light on the subject as the available data will allow. Turns out, Dan333SP, your instincts are bang on. A production street machine that you might actually see on the road, the Viper ACR (which employs a wing), is a match for an F1 car, specifically the Lotus 49 (which doesn't) circa August 1967. Especially if Jim Clark isn't driving it.

Edited by nordschleife, 10 November 2010 - 02:42.

There was an article in the recent Porsche Club of America magazine (Panorama) where Hurley Haywood states that a new GT2RS would lap Daytona as fast as the Porsche RSR that won the 1977 24 hour race. This assumes that the RSR uses shocks and tires of that era.

I'd guess that one of today's premier supercars could lap a typical track as fast as a F1 car from the early 3.0L era.

there are historics, but they run on avon's, dont know how they compair. road and track did a comparison of gt2 cars to there road going counterparts, the vette was closest. road cars are similer on the straights, but lose out in the turns

something like a radical might be similer to f1 pre downforce speed

Just watch when the safety car is deployed. That thing is leaning and screaming around in front of the pack, which looks bored...

So true, and the safety car is no slouch.

There was an article in the recent Porsche Club of America magazine (Panorama) where Hurley Haywood states that a new GT2RS would lap Daytona as fast as the Porsche RSR that won the 1977 24 hour race. This assumes that the RSR uses shocks and tires of that era.

I'd guess that one of today's premier supercars could lap a typical track as fast as a F1 car from the early 3.0L era.

That's interesting about the Porsche as it brings up the same question about road cars vs. Le Mans prototypes and GT cars. Could a GT2RS lap a race track as quickly as a Ford GT MKIV? Probably not, IMO. I'd say that parity line is around 1965, when cars like the original GT40 and the Ferrari 250LM and 330P2 were the class of the field. From there, the LM cars moved to GT MK IVs and then 917s/512s and then the 3L prototypes which were almost F1 machines with detuned motors, all clearly lightyears quicker than the best road car.

Just watch when the safety car is deployed. That thing is leaning and screaming around in front of the pack, which looks bored...

Clearly the current breed of F1 cars are in another dimension of speed vs even the best road cars, hence the original question about how far back you'd have to go to find the equivalent pace in an F1. If I ever doubted that, it would have been dispelled when watching the Ferrari challenge races in Montreal when I go up for the GP. IIRC, the best lap for the current 430 challenge cars is around 1:44, and that represents a car with a road motor running slicks and thoroughly lightened, so add another 5 or 6 seconds at least to get a representative time for a road going 430, which is a very quick car. The F1 lap record is from the V10 era at around 1:12. That huge gap is on a very short track, it would grow massively if we're talking about a longer track with more corners where the braking/handling will further stretch the advantage.

Formula Ford vs Ford GT:
No contest at all. I think this FFord will run the same times as F1 from the early late 50's/early 60's on proper tires.
I don't really get ppl who buy expensive cars just because they're fast and use them for weekends. If you want fast, go racing, street cars are incredibly heavy and thus slow... Tiff and Jason are right, weight is just killing speed.
Of course if you want prestige, OK, but for speed... road cars suck.

Problem is no tracks have remained the same over the years to make a comparison...

There are historic races every weekend on modern f1 tracks.

You can't really compare to old times, because even historic racing Avon rubber is better than the crap they had in the 50-60-70s.

On the Top gear test track, a M3 does a 1:25,3 while the fastest road car at the moment, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport does a 1.16.8. On a one minut longer circuit it be closer to 15 seconds a lap faster and with slick tires we are probably not so far of the 1972 F1 car.

While the M3 probably can do 10 laps on the Nordschleife without major problems, the Veyron most probably couldn't do it (without a longer break in between to change tires, refuel and whatnot).

Zoe

Formula Ford vs Ford GT:
No contest at all. I think this FFord will run the same times as F1 from the early late 50's/early 60's on proper tires.
I don't really get ppl who buy expensive cars just because they're fast and use them for weekends. If you want fast, go racing, street cars are incredibly heavy and thus slow... Tiff and Jason are right, weight is just killing speed.
Of course if you want prestige, OK, but for speed... road cars suck.

Most street cars are heavy and slow. All they talk about is "HP" to sell cars.

On any given track, a Lotus Exige GT3 is a fast car, "only" 1800cc, 270hp, but 750kg. 2.7 kg/hp

Corvette Zr1: 630 hp, 6. 1L, but ...1500kg. 2.4 kg/hp

Campagna T-Rex, only 187hp, ...410kg. 2.2 kg/hp (pulls 1.3g)



However , the relationship is not linear. Lighter cars are always faster. Power/weight gives you an idea about acceleration, but weight alone tells you about braking and cornering.

Marketers and car magazines sell horsepower and top speed. Neither number is meaningful on a real track, or even on the road.

Torque, weight and lateral g are numbers you have to look through the fine print to find.

I've driven a ZR1 at Mosport, a 360, FF Ford, nothing gave the same experience as the FFord. The Campagna is also goofy, scary fast. I can't believe it's street legal.