Here's my plan.
I'd add the yellow bits to it. This layout could bypass the hotel and get rid of the worst part of the circuit.
(Ignore the red bit at C)
Edited by Rob, 16 November 2010 - 15:55.
How to fix the Yas Marina circuit
Started by
sosidge
, Nov 16 2010 11:36
290 replies to this topic
#51
Rob
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 15:42
I'd add the yellow bits to it. This layout could bypass the hotel and get rid of the worst part of the circuit.
(Ignore the red bit at C)
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#52
mtknot
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 16:11
I'd add the yellow bits to it. This layout could bypass the hotel and get rid of the worst part of the circuit.
(Ignore the red bit at C)
Some of these suggestions make slightly queasy... There is no way in hell the FIA would let a track be built like that...
#53
Kaiser
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 16:36
Just my opinion..
Yep-Start over.
#54
Alx09
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#56
Piffles
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 16:53
I fully support the bulldozer project. Let's just go somewhere else.
If they really want to stay in the Middle East, why not Dubai Autodrome?
If they really want to stay in the Middle East, why not Dubai Autodrome?
#57
pingu666
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 16:55
think id take out the chicanes and have a redicously long backstraight 
, then alter anything else to make em run a low downforce package
, then alter anything else to make em run a low downforce package
#59
Peppe
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 17:21
Someone should tell Whitmarsh that they can lengthen the 7th gear so they won't run into the rev limit when slipstreaming the car to overtake.
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#60
Alfisti
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 17:23
As i said in another thread, Tightpants has it about right.
Turns 11 right through 21 is classic Tilke, nonsense fiddly, twisty nothingness that does little more than increase the lap time. Piss it ALL off, just get rid of it and reduce it the way tightpants has.
Some of his circuits are WAY, WAY too complex, looking at you Bahrain and China. Dumb it down stupid.
Turns 11 right through 21 is classic Tilke, nonsense fiddly, twisty nothingness that does little more than increase the lap time. Piss it ALL off, just get rid of it and reduce it the way tightpants has.
Some of his circuits are WAY, WAY too complex, looking at you Bahrain and China. Dumb it down stupid.
#61
barteks
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 18:01
+1Oh and sack Tilke - he's clearly RUBBISH!!!!!
#63
Alfisti
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 18:08
Clearly I am not alone, almost all of you have gutted turns 11 through 21.
#64
Fastcake
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 18:23
Ha Ha, you really can't win them all can you?They probably read one of those "Tilke tracks are horrible because they stick the fans behind massive runoff areas, miles away from the cars" threads
Tightpants has some nice designs, there's enough space on the track to incorporate some changes.
#65
Crazy Ninja
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 18:28
That is madSome mad skillz
i would absolutely love to see that run from the hairpin all the way round uninterrupted but you would never get a section of track like that approved by the FIA. Pity cos it would be great to watch. Maybe even put another slight curve in the long straight somewhere along the lines of a Blanchimont and it would be even better i reckon.
#66
wingwalker
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 18:38
Someone should tell Whitmarsh that they can lengthen the 7th gear so they won't run into the rev limit when slipstreaming the car to overtake.
Problem is, that way car will be a tiny bit slower when going alone (read: quali) and that's what the cars are optmilized for. Allowing the teams to change gear under PF conditions wouldn't hurt anyone, me thinks.
Edited by wingwalker, 16 November 2010 - 18:40.
#67
King Six
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 18:45
I really don't understand why they build crap layouts, and then build the facilities/stands/run-off in such ways that there's zero room for improvement without bulldozing more than half of the original investment.
I think it's the lack of improvement that can be done to this circuit which frustrates me the most, any of the other ''problem'' venues at least have some scope (they just don't have the will), Abu Dhabi has neither.
I think it's the lack of improvement that can be done to this circuit which frustrates me the most, any of the other ''problem'' venues at least have some scope (they just don't have the will), Abu Dhabi has neither.
#68
Peat
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:14
Lifted from an indentical thread i started on 'another' forum:
Similar to a few above. Tried to tackle the main problem areas, while requiring minimal modification to the circuit,
Similar to a few above. Tried to tackle the main problem areas, while requiring minimal modification to the circuit,
#69
Atreiu
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:19
You still have a chince before the hairpin and the extra twisty bit will make no easier for overtaking. And then you simply turned a chincane into a double hairpin chincane. The only part I like is the elimination of the chincane after the second long straight.
#70
PayasYouRace
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:21
Lifted from an indentical thread i started on 'another' forum:
Similar to a few above. Tried to tackle the main problem areas, while requiring minimal modification to the circuit,
Except the cars would never be able to make it round that nasty double hairpin at T8-9, and the one before the T7 hairpin for that matter.
#71
Richard T
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:26
A: Based on the knowledge that the cars really struggles to find traction on the exits of slow corners, i have decided to use the secondary line to make it a bit faster to find a way to make the cars go smoother and more controlled, this is a big issue in touring car racing (which im competing in).
B: The same as A, This is designed with the old Bus Stop in mind
C: Here is the biggest improvement. We have seen many cars "S-ing" eachother thru the chicane and one gets the inside lane out on the short straight but its not enough to really make a move into the "old" turn 12. So i have made the straight twice as long to make it possible to overtake into the "new" turn 12, Then a short section around the house and out on the original track again.
D: Here i have made the corners a bit quicker just to make it a more straigtforward section instead of so much start-stop that makes the following car have to brake earlier and loose to much time and traction (like A)
E: A possible overtaking spot by creating a wide entry.
#72
P123
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:27
Lifted from an indentical thread i started on 'another' forum:
Similar to a few above. Tried to tackle the main problem areas, while requiring minimal modification to the circuit,
Isn't that worse? One of the main issues is the chicane in the first sector before the hairpin. No chance of anybody outbraking themsleves on the entry to that hairpin as in Canada or Malaysia, so the chance of getting a tow down the next straight is diminished.
#73
OO7
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:42
I like your suggestion alot Captain Tightpants
. I think the cars going under the hotel is quite a unique attraction, so maybe that could be retained. With moveable rear wings next year things should be better, I hope.
Edited by Obi Offiah, 16 November 2010 - 19:51.
#74
Peat
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:44
Ok, let me explain my reasonings.
Hairpin 1 -
The circuit 'needs' to run right down into the stadium grandstand, otherwise thats a grandstand down the toilet. Due to no run-off, you need to slow the cars down beforehand. Having the chicane as a right-left allows you to open up the hairpin slightly, meaning it is not as traction dependant on the exit.
Double hairpin replacing chicane (at end of main straight) -
This will extend the braking zone, and having the 2 tight hairpins at a distance apart means the person overtaken can either squirt up the inside into the 2nd apex, or capitalise on the overtaker going over-defensive.
Left-hand hairpin replacing 'flick-flack' chicane -
Pretty obvious. Replacing mickey mouse chicane with actual corners....
It's all very well some of you guys proposing radical re-designs, but all design is governed by constraints. I think my design tackles some of the issues within realistic limits and is easily acheivable cost-effectivley.
Hairpin 1 -
The circuit 'needs' to run right down into the stadium grandstand, otherwise thats a grandstand down the toilet. Due to no run-off, you need to slow the cars down beforehand. Having the chicane as a right-left allows you to open up the hairpin slightly, meaning it is not as traction dependant on the exit.
Double hairpin replacing chicane (at end of main straight) -
This will extend the braking zone, and having the 2 tight hairpins at a distance apart means the person overtaken can either squirt up the inside into the 2nd apex, or capitalise on the overtaker going over-defensive.
Left-hand hairpin replacing 'flick-flack' chicane -
Pretty obvious. Replacing mickey mouse chicane with actual corners....
It's all very well some of you guys proposing radical re-designs, but all design is governed by constraints. I think my design tackles some of the issues within realistic limits and is easily acheivable cost-effectivley.
#75
OO7
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:45
A: Based on the knowledge that the cars really struggles to find traction on the exits of slow corners, i have decided to use the secondary line to make it a bit faster to find a way to make the cars go smoother and more controlled, this is a big issue in touring car racing (which im competing in).
B: The same as A, This is designed with the old Bus Stop in mind
C: Here is the biggest improvement. We have seen many cars "S-ing" eachother thru the chicane and one gets the inside lane out on the short straight but its not enough to really make a move into the "old" turn 12. So i have made the straight twice as long to make it possible to overtake into the "new" turn 12, Then a short section around the house and out on the original track again.
D: Here i have made the corners a bit quicker just to make it a more straigtforward section instead of so much start-stop that makes the following car have to brake earlier and loose to much time and traction (like A)
E: A possible overtaking spot by creating a wide entry.
The problem at A will be lack of suitable runoff and I don't think changes to E are necessary.
#76
August
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:45
The biggest problem in making changes is probably to retain the lenght of circuit or preferably add one meter to it. The GP has 55 laps, and the circuit lenght is 5.554 km (or 5.55 km as they say at the official Yas Marina website. I think that's not a coincidence.
#77
P123
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:46
Maybe they could just use the Ferrari Disney rollercoaster instead.
#78
TURU
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:49
Damn, beat me to it.
#79
Richard T
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:49
The problem at A will be lack of suitable runoff and I don't think changes to E are necessary.
You may be right, maybe try with Captain Tightpants solution, making it into two (about) 70* degree corners
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#80
PayasYouRace
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:53
I really don't understand why they build crap layouts, and then build the facilities/stands/run-off in such ways that there's zero room for improvement without bulldozing more than half of the original investment.
I think it's the lack of improvement that can be done to this circuit which frustrates me the most, any of the other ''problem'' venues at least have some scope (they just don't have the will), Abu Dhabi has neither.
That is actually a big problem here. There's too much infrastructure to work around. It's set in stone. Maybe the bulldozer at the start of the thread is the best option after all.
#81
OO7
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:57
Hi RichardYou may be right, maybe try with Captain Tightpants solution, making it into two (about) 70* degree corners
I've just had a thought. Your solution at 'A' may be possible. I believe the Yas Marina circuit was the first to use runoff that extends underneath the grandstand (this is at 'B' on your plan). If they can incorporate such a solution where the cars approach topspeed, then they should be able to do the same at 'A' hopefully?
#82
rolf123
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 19:59
Idiot Whitmarsh.
This is the only era in F1 where a faster car can get stuck behind another one and not even pull alongside. And the only form of motorsport where these processions happen at all.
Blame the cars and the team managers, drivers, ex-drivers and owners of F1 who did not give two sh1ts about this for 15 years and only looked after their own interests. Chickens have come home to roost.
Most races are pretty boring but I'm hoping that ever single race of the 20 next year becomes like Abu Dhabi so that finally there might be some decent car rules instead of "Tinke"ring and trying to use circuit design to get around the problem.
The problem is with the formula, NOT the track.
But don't worry, Bahrain will also be a borefest but as soon as Australia race comes by, all the team owners and Bernie will be saying again "don't worry, F1 is as exciting as it has ever been"!!!
I'm really annoyed with the ex-drivers too. Stewart is just an arse-kisser. Mansell is the only one who has been vocal about it but even he was saying it all 10 years too late.
This is the only era in F1 where a faster car can get stuck behind another one and not even pull alongside. And the only form of motorsport where these processions happen at all.
Blame the cars and the team managers, drivers, ex-drivers and owners of F1 who did not give two sh1ts about this for 15 years and only looked after their own interests. Chickens have come home to roost.
Most races are pretty boring but I'm hoping that ever single race of the 20 next year becomes like Abu Dhabi so that finally there might be some decent car rules instead of "Tinke"ring and trying to use circuit design to get around the problem.
The problem is with the formula, NOT the track.
But don't worry, Bahrain will also be a borefest but as soon as Australia race comes by, all the team owners and Bernie will be saying again "don't worry, F1 is as exciting as it has ever been"!!!
I'm really annoyed with the ex-drivers too. Stewart is just an arse-kisser. Mansell is the only one who has been vocal about it but even he was saying it all 10 years too late.
Edited by rolf123, 16 November 2010 - 20:02.
#83
phil1993
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:01
The problem is with the formula, NOT the track.
It's not the sole reason though. If it was, we'd get as little passing as we did here, but that simply isn't the case.
#84
Peppe
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:25
Although being a bit messy the T12-T13 chicane is good as it's turning to the right giving the line to the one going for an outside pass through T11 after the straight. Like Kubica did on Sutil and Koba.
#86
FlatOverCrest
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:32
You may be right, maybe try with Captain Tightpants solution, making it into two (about) 70* degree corners
Big wide hairpin Tightpants suggestion? This was what I posted yesterday in the other thread discussing the venue before this thread started.
Also Rofl123, I am sorry but you are quite incorrect. The idiots are the ones that cannot explain 'why' if the formula is so messed up, that we manage to have overtaking at some GP circuits and not others? If it was a 'Formula' issue completely, then every single race would be boring. Yet Spa, Canada, Brazil, etc, all offer opportunities to overtake through circuit design.
The problem with many of the ideas/designs put forward, is the fact that only 'one' true racing line exists. So anything that is really tight can be easily defended and is often the case of leave the braking until the final seconds. Brake hard, cover the line and accelerate out.
In order to give opportunity for difference, the drivers need the ability to take different lines into and out of corners. This is where the true skill of the driver can be tested. Seeing who can brake last and hog the road the most, is not going to provide spectacular opportunity for getting out of the corner in a different way to the car ahead.
Edited by FlatOverCrest, 16 November 2010 - 20:37.
#87
Richard T
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:38
Big wide hairpin Tightpants suggestion? This was what I posted yesterday in the other thread discussing the venue before this thread started.
Nope, This
#88
BigWicks
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:42
some right old nonsense being spouted in this thread
abu dhabi has really two long straights followed by two tight corners, that is perfect for overtaking
why was there no overtaking then? in the case of this race, because everyone had pretty much identical top speeds. alonso and hamilton were getting into the slipstream of the car ahead so often and yet making up no distance, you can redesign the track as much as you like, it wouldn't make much difference.
adjustable rear wings are a bit gimmicky but until we go back to engine rules which allow cars to gain extra speed in the tow they are the only solution really (if you even consider this a probem.)
the nature of those tracks means you get cars with noticeable different downforce setups, and if you are lucky, you get low downforce cars stuck behind high downforce cars. the nature of au dhabi seems to be everyone goes for pretty much the same downforce levels.
abu dhabi has really two long straights followed by two tight corners, that is perfect for overtaking
why was there no overtaking then? in the case of this race, because everyone had pretty much identical top speeds. alonso and hamilton were getting into the slipstream of the car ahead so often and yet making up no distance, you can redesign the track as much as you like, it wouldn't make much difference.
adjustable rear wings are a bit gimmicky but until we go back to engine rules which allow cars to gain extra speed in the tow they are the only solution really (if you even consider this a probem.)
If it was a 'Formula' issue completely, then every single race would be boring. Yet Spa, Canada, Brazil, etc, all offer opportunities to overtake through circuit design.
the nature of those tracks means you get cars with noticeable different downforce setups, and if you are lucky, you get low downforce cars stuck behind high downforce cars. the nature of au dhabi seems to be everyone goes for pretty much the same downforce levels.
#89
noikeee
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:50
The best I could do:
It's not very hard/expensive to perform these changes at all, except for #1 which requires a little bit of extra tarmac. There is runoff available for everything proposed here. What I'm trying to do with this is giving breathing space for the full sequence of altered corners and straights, allow for braking spots yet minimize the slingshot effect.
Change #1 gets rid of the "Eau Rouge" which some drivers find fun, but then that sequence is flat throttle and hardly challenging - it allows for the full effect of change #2 which is a similar solution to FlatOverCrest's, an hairpin allowing for overtaking under braking but not overly tight.
Change #3 should be a 3rd/4th gear corner (perhaps I've designed it slightly too tight on the map, it was meant to be a tad more open), with a flat exit, which again still allows passing under braking - albeit probably less than the corner - but vitaly makes less of a slingshot effect into the oncoming straight, and increases the top speeds achieved there.
The rest is kept as it is because of the hotel, and because of the decent off cambered corners, hence why I retain the fiddly bit on the bottom left corner despite it looking silly on the map. The circuit would still be soulless and a poor challenge, but at least you'd get some passing and you wouldn't have to tear up the place.
It's not very hard/expensive to perform these changes at all, except for #1 which requires a little bit of extra tarmac. There is runoff available for everything proposed here. What I'm trying to do with this is giving breathing space for the full sequence of altered corners and straights, allow for braking spots yet minimize the slingshot effect.
Change #1 gets rid of the "Eau Rouge" which some drivers find fun, but then that sequence is flat throttle and hardly challenging - it allows for the full effect of change #2 which is a similar solution to FlatOverCrest's, an hairpin allowing for overtaking under braking but not overly tight.
Change #3 should be a 3rd/4th gear corner (perhaps I've designed it slightly too tight on the map, it was meant to be a tad more open), with a flat exit, which again still allows passing under braking - albeit probably less than the corner - but vitaly makes less of a slingshot effect into the oncoming straight, and increases the top speeds achieved there.
The rest is kept as it is because of the hotel, and because of the decent off cambered corners, hence why I retain the fiddly bit on the bottom left corner despite it looking silly on the map. The circuit would still be soulless and a poor challenge, but at least you'd get some passing and you wouldn't have to tear up the place.
#90
FlatOverCrest
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 20:50
Nope, This
Had I used a map to that size and a thinner line..guess what... it pretty much is two bites of the cherry! but hey, explained all about the idea in the other thread...
#91
FlatOverCrest
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 21:01
some right old nonsense being spouted in this thread
abu dhabi has really two long straights followed by two tight corners, that is perfect for overtaking
why was there no overtaking then? in the case of this race, because everyone had pretty much identical top speeds. alonso and hamilton were getting into the slipstream of the car ahead so often and yet making up no distance, you can redesign the track as much as you like, it wouldn't make much difference.
There is certainly some nonsense being spouted... mainly by those who dont understand that it is not about a long straight into a tight corner, it's actually about the previous corner to the long straight that determines whether a driver can get a better drive out of the corner to then make use of the long straight into the braking zone... So yes redesigning the circuit to change the corner that leads onto the straight and tight corner is a 100% sure way to increase overtaking.
#92
BigWicks
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 21:07
There is certainly some nonsense being spouted... mainly by those who dont understand that it is not about a long straight into a tight corner, it's actually about the previous corner to the long straight that determines whether a driver can get a better drive out of the corner to then make use of the long straight into the braking zone... So yes redesigning the circuit to change the corner that leads onto the straight and tight corner is a 100% sure way to increase overtaking.
but alonso was in the tow lap after lap (as was lewis with kubica) and never gained ground whatsoever, so i refute your theory regarding this.
canada is hairpin onto a long straight into a chicane and you get an amazing amount of overtaking, the corner leading onto the straight is not important.
#93
zawisza
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:05
QUOTE (FlatOverCrest @ Nov 16 2010, 21:01)
There is certainly some nonsense being spouted... mainly by those who dont understand that it is not about a long straight into a tight corner, it's actually about the previous corner to the long straight that determines whether a driver can get a better drive out of the corner to then make use of the long straight into the braking zone... So yes redesigning the circuit to change the corner that leads onto the straight and tight corner is a 100% sure way to increase overtaking
but alonso was in the tow lap after lap (as was lewis with kubica) and never gained ground whatsoever, so i refute your theory regarding this.
canada is hairpin onto a long straight into a chicane and you get an amazing amount of overtaking, the corner leading onto the straight is not important.
I'm definately not an expert but I can quote Kubica's comment on his overtake on Kobayashi. I did manage to force him to close the door during braking in turn 8. Later automatically having gone better out of the turn 9 and 11 I overtook him on the outside.
#94
chrisblades85
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:08
Taking it off the calender would be a start.
#95
Atreiu
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:10
I still prefer my ideas. Simple and effective without demanding bulldozing and laying waste to a lot of the work already done. Not to mention they make the track faster and possibly demand some greater top speed/downforce compromises.
#96
BigCHrome
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:14
I've taken some ideas that other posters have suggested and added some of my own.
The main differences are:
1. It will be run counter-clockwise
2. the chicane on the back straight was inspired by the old bus stop chicane at Spa
3. corner after that is similar to Sepang 7&8 and Turkey 5&6
#97
senna da silva
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:20
Just remove the chicane before T7
This.
Along with the reintroduction of kers and the adjustable rear wing should make more than enough passing opportunities.
#98
senna da silva
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:24
Oh and I'd like to see the removal of rev limiters, the limit on the number of engines through a season is enough of a restriction.
#99
wewantourdarbyback
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#100
Rob
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Posted 16 November 2010 - 22:44
I'd add the yellow bits to it. This layout could bypass the hotel and get rid of the worst part of the circuit.
(Ignore the red bit at C)
Some of these suggestions make slightly queasy... There is no way in hell the FIA would let a track be built like that...
I don't know what is making you queasy! I dislike the bit that goes around the hotel, so I decided to cut it out of the circuit because demolishing the hotel is clearly not an option. Instead of the tight chicane at C, the cars leave the existing circuit onto some new tarmac which takes them down to D. They then come back past the grandstand the opposite way to before and then some more new tarmac takes them back to the start/finish line.
