Trust me...
If I had an F3 car in 1966 and there was a choice between a 25-lapper at Brands Hatch and a 2-lapper at Mugello, I'd have been barrelling across France with the race car in tow in a big hurry!
A silly place to run a race
Started by
Barry Boor
, Nov 29 2010 09:01
161 replies to this topic
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#52
Sharman
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 13:39
Come to think about it, how on earth could anybody with a grain of common sense conceive the Mille Miglia? Thank God that the safety knickers brigade did not exist in those days.
Edited by Sharman, 30 November 2010 - 13:39.
#53
Ray Bell
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 14:23
Or maybe not?
On the straight, at about 180mph, a tyre burst for reasons which are still not clear. The car veered off the road, uprooted a massive granite marker stone, then flew through the air, snapping off a telegraph pole, and cutting to pieces spectators at the roadside who were pressing forward, regardless of danger, to see the cars pass. Annihilating its crew as it went, it bounced into one ditch, then hurtled across the road into the ditch on the opposite side. The Marquis de Portago, his passenger, Eddie Nelson, and nine spectators, of whom five were children, died, and several injured.
#54
Eric Dunsdon
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 18:10
Almost all of the layouts currently used for Formula One races! 
#55
Raido
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 21:37
Longridge, and Hitchin ;)
(IRL, some of its roads are so narrow you could hardly drive *one* car through there!)
Although, on most of these ultra-tight tracks they could at least run this!
(IRL, some of its roads are so narrow you could hardly drive *one* car through there!)
Although, on most of these ultra-tight tracks they could at least run this!
Edited by Raido, 30 November 2010 - 21:46.
#56
tyrrellp346wheels
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 21:44
Not nostalgic but in the formula superleague street race in Beijing, they had to go over an extremly tight bridge and then through a series of tight corners under full yellows for evey lap.
IMO any race track that has to have sections under yellows for every lap is rubbish and a waste of time
IMO any race track that has to have sections under yellows for every lap is rubbish and a waste of time
#58
kayemod
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 22:18
Would I be upsetting a few people on TNF if I nominated that short-lived (deservedly) Birmingham street circuit? I had the mildly embarrassing experience of watching some of the event on TV in the company of two generally sympathetic non-enthusiasts, who couldn't believe what they were seeing, I think one was convinced that it was all some kind of joke. Every bit as unappealing/unsuitable/bad for the image of motor sport as the Caesar's Palace car park was my opinion at the time, though I'm sure there will be some on here who disagree.
#59
Vitesse2
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Posted 30 November 2010 - 23:20
Too late, Rob! See post 25.
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#60
Frank S
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 00:08
Birmingham SuperPrix in the rain.Silly but great!
Drive-by URL posting should be a crime.
#61
Rob G
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 01:08
The sad thing is, the San Jose street course replaced Laguna Seca on the Champ Car schedule. Champ Car was all set to dump San Jose for Laguna Seca again for 2008, but the eleventh-hour reunification deal with the IRL put the kibosh on it.The famous level crossing
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
And at full speed
#62
Terry Walker
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 01:40
Vila Real, Portugal, 1968. A round of the GT Championship, contested by Ford GT40s and the like. Picture six GT40s, a Ferrari or two, and some Porsches all barrelling towards the camera through this street . . .
#63
alansart
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 07:35
Hitchin ;)
I've driven around it many a time, but not at that speed
#64
Barry Boor
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 08:45
I get a bit peeved at this automatic Tilke-bashing. Granted not all his circuits are spectacular but they reflect the times in which we currently reside.
Istambul is excellent and if modern racing cars were able to overtake one another with some ease I feel that there would be very little to moan about. Blame the cars not the circuits. You can't build Spa in the middle of a desert. Maybe you shouldn't build any circuits in the middle of a desert but money talks and in the Gulf it volume is deafening.
Several people have picked up on my original feelings, that circuits that are so narrow in places that passing is not only difficult but not allowed, are the tracks I label as silly.
Still it's been an interesting thread.
Istambul is excellent and if modern racing cars were able to overtake one another with some ease I feel that there would be very little to moan about. Blame the cars not the circuits. You can't build Spa in the middle of a desert. Maybe you shouldn't build any circuits in the middle of a desert but money talks and in the Gulf it volume is deafening.
Several people have picked up on my original feelings, that circuits that are so narrow in places that passing is not only difficult but not allowed, are the tracks I label as silly.
Still it's been an interesting thread.
#65
Simon Hadfield
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:05
I would agree a very interesting thread, however all over the world there are sections of circuits where you know you cannot overtake - to have sections where no overtaking is mandated with the main idea of saving drivers from themselves seems prudent rather than silly - to have that tiny restriction at Macau but gain the rest of the circuit seems a small price to pay. I am also glad that people realise that it is modern racing that really restricts overtaking but that is a topic for another thread surely?
#66
wenoopy
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:15
Trust me...
If I had an F3 car in 1966 and there was a choice between a 25-lapper at Brands Hatch and a 2-lapper at Mugello, I'd have been barrelling across France with the race car in tow in a big hurry!
It could have been an unusual spectacle, with about 15 cars spread around a 66 km lap. The cars started individually at intervals (?30 or 60 seconds?) in the style of the Italian road races, presumably with the fastest last away. You could do the whole 2 laps and never see another car! But it sure would have been fun.
#67
Allan Lupton
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:20
I think some of us grew up at a time when the majority of circuits were adaptations of road systems that were already there. That started (of course) in the first years of motor racing but in the 1950s we still had Spa, Rouen, Reims, Monaco, Pescara, Ain Diab, Syracuse and Porto for GP cars and Le Mans, Dundrod, and the Targa Florio courses for sports cars. (plus others - memory isn't what it was!)I get a bit peeved at this automatic Tilke-bashing. Granted not all his circuits are spectacular but they reflect the times in which we currently reside.
That means that I, and folk like me, think of road racing as what it is/should be and remember that Brooklands (the ultimate forerunner of the Tilkedrome?) bred specialist track cars that were out of step with what the rest of Europe was doing.
Having said that, there were a few purpose-built tracks that were in step with the others - Nurburgring of course, and the park circuits such as Monza, Donington and Crystal Palace and even Zandvoort wasn't bad. The airfield circuits were makeshifts using easily-controlled redundant hard-surface tracks and gave us (in the UK particularly) lots of cheap racing venues quickly.
#68
Stephen W
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:32
Several people have picked up on my original feelings, that circuits that are so narrow in places that passing is not only difficult but not allowed, are the tracks I label as silly.
The trouble is that at some circuits that appear to have acres of tarmac there is but one racing line. You stray off it at your peril and in consequence it becomes every bit as 'silly' to race there as on the narrowest of street circuits.
I could understand why Brands Hatch was used for so many Grand Prix but would still have loved to have seen the British GP come to Oulton Park just once!
The modern F1 cars with all the add-on aero bits & bobs do make overtaking difficult. I was always of the opinion that the circuits shouldn't have been changed but the regulations so that the cars were brought to a pace acceptable on the tracks in use at the time.
My vote for the silliest place to run a race goes to Oporto with its cobblestones and tram-tracks - it must have been a nightmare in the wet!
#69
kayemod
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 10:26
Too late, Rob! See post 25.
Yes, I see it all now, but I rarely click on YouTube links so missed it. Clearly, Birmingham is the 'circuit' (wash my mouth out with soap), that dare not speak its name on this thread...
To answer Barry's point about what he thinks is unfair Tilke-bashing, it has always seemed to me that Hermann's greatest problem is that he doesn't have too much idea what F1 racing is all about, he comes up with circuit after circuit with lots of second gear corners, but no real passing places. John Hugenholtz of course did understand, and gave us Zandvoort and Suzuka, not much chance of Tilke ever coming up with anything like that, and my theory about Turn 8 in Turkey is that it was an accident, his pencil must have slipped.
#70
Michael Ferner
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 10:42
Yet, Hugenholtz also gave us Zolder and Jarama...
#71
Barry Boor
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 10:56
Hang on a minute. There is a misconception here, I think. Does anyone think that modern Grand Prix cars would find it any easier to overtake at Zandvoort than they do at any modern Tilke circuit?
Put 1970s cars on modern tracks and they would be passing eachother all over the place.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't much like Tilke tracks in general but as Steve says, it's the blooming car design that spoils it, not the tracks they run on.
Put 1970s cars on modern tracks and they would be passing eachother all over the place.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't much like Tilke tracks in general but as Steve says, it's the blooming car design that spoils it, not the tracks they run on.
#72
kayemod
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:17
Hang on a minute. There is a misconception here, I think. Does anyone think that modern Grand Prix cars would find it any easier to overtake at Zandvoort than they do at any modern Tilke circuit?
Put 1970s cars on modern tracks and they would be passing eachother all over the place.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't much like Tilke tracks in general but as Steve says, it's the blooming car design that spoils it, not the tracks they run on.
Some truth in that of course, quite a lot of truth in fact, but Hugenholtz designed tracks for the cars of his time, not always entirely successfully as with Jarama, but in general he did know what he was doing, whereas most Tilke tracks seem to be designed to actually prevent passing. We all agree that today's cars bring their own problems, but that isn't the only reason that most Tilke GPs are rather dull, and there's a whole new generation of fans who've never experienced the kind of racing that some of us Old Farts remember from the dim and distant past. Maybe it's not irrelevant that after submitting his design, he had very little to do with construction of that Turkish effort, but I still think that Turn 8 was an aberration, and that his pencil slipped.
#73
Allan Lupton
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:28
I think the other problem is that car designers once designed their cars to win on the tracks that they had to race on. Nowadays they (and many of the commentators) seem to expect the tracks to be (re-)designed to fit the cars.Hang on a minute. There is a misconception here, I think. Does anyone think that modern Grand Prix cars would find it any easier to overtake at Zandvoort than they do at any modern Tilke circuit?
Put 1970s cars on modern tracks and they would be passing eachother all over the place.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't much like Tilke tracks in general but as Steve says, it's the blooming car design that spoils it, not the tracks they run on.
We of a certain age remember significant differences between the Vanwalls competing at Monaco and those presented elsewhere and even greater differences in Mercedes-Benz W196 versions.
Mind you these days too much car design is written in the rules - another hobby-horse of mine
#74
Louis Mr. F1
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 12:39
not sure if you have watched this before. 
#75
Graham Gauld
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 14:25
Yes, I see it all now, but I rarely click on YouTube links so missed it. Clearly, Birmingham is the 'circuit' (wash my mouth out with soap), that dare not speak its name on this thread...
To answer Barry's point about what he thinks is unfair Tilke-bashing, it has always seemed to me that Hermann's greatest problem is that he doesn't have too much idea what F1 racing is all about, he comes up with circuit after circuit with lots of second gear corners, but no real passing places. John Hugenholtz of course did understand, and gave us Zandvoort and Suzuka, not much chance of Tilke ever coming up with anything like that, and my theory about Turn 8 in Turkey is that it was an accident, his pencil must have slipped.
Purely for the record John Hugenholtz did NOT design Zandvoort .................he was the long time circuit manager there and his finest creation was Suzuka.
#76
kayemod
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 15:17
Purely for the record John Hugenholtz did NOT design Zandvoort .................he was the long time circuit manager there and his finest creation was Suzuka.
Maybe, though he's generally given most of the credit for it, which is pretty much what I said of course, but generally I'm all in favour of setting records straight on here.
#77
Michael Ferner
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 16:24
not sure if you have watched this before.
Thnx for that, verrry entertaining!
Ralphie junior has always been something of a hero of mine - 1'55" 'round Macau is mighty quick!
#78
milestone 11
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 16:55
This was even sillier, fantastic at the time though. Very distant memories.
Who knows where?
Who knows where?
#79
Barry Boor
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 17:33
Looks like the eastern end of the St. Helier circuit on Jersey, to me.
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#80
milestone 11
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 17:42
Spot on Barry.Looks like the eastern end of the St. Helier circuit on Jersey, to me.
#81
Nick Wa
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 20:57
Why even sillier?
Wide enough for a 4-3-4 grid although the back straight a bit narrower
Peter Whitehead (left - trousers tucked into his socks) talking with Freddie March (on the shooting stick), with his first Ferrari - by common consent too short in the wheelbase - on the starting grid for the 1950 Jersey Road Race at St Helier. He would win.
Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library
DCN
Wide enough for a 4-3-4 grid although the back straight a bit narrower
Edited by Nick Wa, 01 December 2010 - 21:03.
#82
Ray Bell
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 21:08
Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Purely for the record John Hugenholtz did NOT design Zandvoort .................he was the long time circuit manager there and his finest creation was Suzuka.
And he did his other creative work, developing catch fences, at Zandvoort...
When discussion about Zolder etc arise, you also have to consider the country he had to work with and the parameters laid down by the people paying the bills.
And to return to the specific topic of very narrow circuits, Bern had some bits that worried many, I believe. What about Pescara?
#83
Rocky2
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Posted 01 December 2010 - 21:37
Yep, that's West Park corner. Picture was taken on rainy day of 28 April, 1949. Peter Whitehead in his Ferrari 125 leads Luigi Villoresi in Maserati 4CLT.Looks like the eastern end of the St. Helier circuit on Jersey, to me.
But that's like a highway road compared to the back streets of Livorno, where the following photograph of Rudi Caracciola aboard his Mercedes-Benz W154 was taken during Coppa Ciano on 7 August, 1938:
#84
cheapracer
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:48
The Beijing street circuit that A1GP visited a while ago. It had a hairpin that was so tight that it was physically impossible to get around on full lock. The cars were having to do spin turns in order to negotiate it.
Heaven to Betsy, you mean the drivers had to use skill?
Seriously, thats their problem if they want to use stupid 120" wheelbases in the interest of aero's IMO and have you seen what accounts for "full lock" on one?
#85
Graham Gauld
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:46
And he did his other creative work, developing catch fences, at Zandvoort...
When discussion about Zolder etc arise, you also have to consider the country he had to work with and the parameters laid down by the people paying the bills.
And to return to the specific topic of very narrow circuits, Bern had some bits that worried many, I believe. What about Pescara?
Reference Berne, this bit doesn't look too bad, taken in 1938.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
#86
Stephen W
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 11:59
Reference Berne, this bit doesn't look too bad, taken in 1938.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
They should have left the nets on the goalposts to help arrest any stray cars!
#87
Julian Bronson
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 12:24
I think Macau is the best street circuit in the world yes the hairpin is a bit tight.i had to three point turn the lister in practise i hope we can go back,
one of the funiest memorys was watching the world go by after we finished racing for the day we were all sat with are wifes i might add.
a very famous driver enqired what the young ladys parading past cost, only to be told (Half your fortune Darling)
one of the funiest memorys was watching the world go by after we finished racing for the day we were all sat with are wifes i might add.
a very famous driver enqired what the young ladys parading past cost, only to be told (Half your fortune Darling)
#88
kayemod
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 12:28
one of the funiest memorys was watching the world go by after we finished racing for the day we were all sat with are wifes i might add.
a very famous driver enqired what the young ladys parading past cost, only to be told (Half your fortune Darling)
It doesn't require any kind of infidelity to have that kind of punishment inflicted on you, as I'm sure quite a few on TNF can testify.
#89
Ray Bell
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 12:32
Originally posted by Rocky2
.....the following photograph of Rudi Caracciola aboard his Mercedes-Benz W154 was taken during Coppa Ciano on 7 August, 1938:
Just imagine the importance of getting into this bit first!
There would be times when all kinds of risks might seem worth the effort. Like when you're being challenged for the lead and a slower car is about to get in your way.
#90
milestone 11
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 16:59
Why even sillier?
In real terms, the course was little more than two straights and two hairpin corners. There are a couple of bends on the inner road but nothing of real consequence. The lap record is in excess of 90mph which even now would be silly.
#91
kayemod
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 17:33
Just imagine the importance of getting into this bit first!
There would be times when all kinds of risks might seem worth the effort. Like when you're being challenged for the lead and a slower car is about to get in your way.
Indeed, and at first glance, that looked like a 'No Entry' sign...
#92
Duc-Man
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 17:44
Mr. Tilke's track layouts are a lot like the songs of Modern Talking. They wrote one song with ten different lyrics.
Almost all of Tilke's racetracks have the same characteristics and a hairpin before or after the start/finish straight.
And like Modern Talking: his first design worked, so he does the same thing over and over again.
your my heart your my soul brother louie louie louie...
Almost all of Tilke's racetracks have the same characteristics and a hairpin before or after the start/finish straight.
And like Modern Talking: his first design worked, so he does the same thing over and over again.
your my heart your my soul brother louie louie louie...
#93
Chris Townsend
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 19:10
I get a bit peeved at this automatic Tilke-bashing. Granted not all his circuits are spectacular but they reflect the times in which we currently reside.
Istambul is excellent and if modern racing cars were able to overtake one another with some ease I feel that there would be very little to moan about. Blame the cars not the circuits. You can't build Spa in the middle of a desert. Maybe you shouldn't build any circuits in the middle of a desert but money talks and in the Gulf it volume is deafening.
Several people have picked up on my original feelings, that circuits that are so narrow in places that passing is not only difficult but not allowed, are the tracks I label as silly.
Still it's been an interesting thread.
Barry, if we are now blaming the cars rather than the circuits, what was wrong with Macau in the first place?
In 1977 Patrese passed 20 plus cars to retake the lead after a pit stop
In 1979 Lees won from 11th on the grid, and not by virtue of retirements...
These performances would suggest that in the days of less sophisticated roadholding and aerodynamics, the criterion you establish for a silly place to run a race - that you can't pass - simply doesn't apply to the circuit that you nominated
#94
Ray Bell
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 21:33
Maybe there's some other reason to be critical...
Perhaps Barry can't make a hairpin tight enough with his Scalextric set to emulate it?
Perhaps Barry can't make a hairpin tight enough with his Scalextric set to emulate it?
#95
Rocky2
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:06
Just imagine the importance of getting into this bit first!
There would be times when all kinds of risks might seem worth the effort. Like when you're being challenged for the lead and a slower car is about to get in your way.
By the way, that is Via dei Bagni ("Bath Street" in English) in Livorno. You can make a trip to this street by clicking on this link
#96
kayemod
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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:56
So I was right, it is 'No Entry'.
#97
Ray Bell
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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:35
Looks like it...
But some things are prone to change in sixty or seventy years.
But some things are prone to change in sixty or seventy years.
#98
johnnythunders
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Posted 03 December 2010 - 13:26
Does anyone have any idea whether Bernie's taking 'The Show' to Qatar any time soon? That could well meet the criteria.
#99
lustigson
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Posted 03 December 2010 - 13:56
To me it looks like the entry — in both variations — wasn't the problem. The fact that both drivers touchéd the wall, was, though.I could not think of a more stupid layout for a pit entrance :
Practice accident
Qualifiyng accident
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#100
elansprint72
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Posted 03 December 2010 - 15:05
The original Avus layout looks rather bizarre- two parallel straights about five miles long separated by a six feet strip of grass and then brick-surfaced banked turning loops at each end. Rosemeyer did a lap at an average speed of 172 mph! Imagine two of those silver arrows passing each other with a closing speed of 480 mph!
Silver Arrows at Avus
Opel rocket car at Avus
This might be a contender for the first car with a big wing!
Silver Arrows at Avus
Opel rocket car at Avus
This might be a contender for the first car with a big wing!
Edited by elansprint72, 03 December 2010 - 15:13.
