Mlle. Hellé-Nice

I've just got the book about Hellé Nice and, thought I haven't started to read yet, it seems that Mrs Seymour did a very good job (I've just gave a quick look through the pages).

And I couldn't help laughing myself to read this on the Notes part of the book (pg 284) : "Chico Landi, who took part in the same race, has given his own version (about the accident in Brazil) on the www.atlasforum site (20 November 2001)."

Maybe I was wrong to took his name as my nickname here in the forum, but poor Old Chico was long gone in 2001. And I'm really sorry that I have first learned about this book after it was ready, because I believe that I could have helped Mrs Seymour on researching photos and info about Helle's races in Brazil.

Anyway, this footnote just shows what a brilliant source of information the TNF is!

Does anyone knows how can I contact Miranda Seymour?

Originally posted by Chico Landi
I've just got the book about Hellé Nice and, thought I haven't started to read yet, it seems that Mrs Seymour did a very good job (I've just gave a quick look through the pages).

And I couldn't help laughing myself to read this on the Notes part of the book (pg 284) : "Chico Landi, who took part in the same race, has given his own version (about the accident in Brazil) on the www.atlasforum site (20 November 2001)."

Maybe I was wrong to took his name as my nickname here in the forum, but poor Old Chico was long gone in 2001. And I'm really sorry that I have first learned about this book after it was ready, because I believe that I could have helped Mrs Seymour on researching photos and info about Helle's races in Brazil.

Anyway, this footnote just shows what a brilliant source of information the TNF is!

Does anyone knows how can I contact Miranda Seymour?

The easiest way would be to write to the publisher.

PdeRL

Originally posted by Chico Landi

Does anyone knows how can I contact Miranda Seymour?

Yes, type in www and dot com for her website.

Or Email her at

Her first name.last name@btinternet.com

Cheers,

Ron Scoma

Originally posted by Rob29
A lady I have been trying to find more about for ages. Did not know she ever raced outside of Europe. Any more details?

Some Avanzo details at :

http://www.quattroru...lizzasezione=si

Originally posted by robert dick


Some Avanzo details at :

http://www.quattroru...lizzasezione=si

Thanks Robert,thats the best photo of her I have found to date.

Does any one know where helle Nice is buried? I am in Nice again this summer so it would be a gentlemanly and respectful thing to place some flowers on her grave on behalf of all of her latterday admirers on TNF.

The address for her flat is easy to trace beyond the old town in Nice.

She has certainly generated some interest and very wide ranging discussions via the thread.

many thanks

Roger Lund.

The review of her biography in a recent issue of The Economist mentions that she's in an unmarked grave. I will check the article on Monday and see if it mentions a town.

Jack

What happened is in the book and just about had me in tears.
'' La Roue Toune had also paid for Helene's ashes to be sent to Sainte-Mesme for burial in the family grave.Payment was made for flowers to be laid on the tomb evey Sainte-Helenes day ,August 18 as was proper.Everything concerning her death was at least in order. Or should have been. The details confirming the transaction and payments are preserved at the Nice Marie,but the instructions given by Madame Jarnach were ignored. The slab of stone commemorating the Delangle family in the graveyard at Sainte-Mesme is engraved with only 3 names,Alexandrine,Solange & Henri.Solange,who died in 1986,was living at Sainte-Mesme at the time of her sister's death. As the purchaser of the plot she had the right do as she wished with it.She chose to obliterate her sister's presence.''
So where to leave your flowers Roger,I don't realy know.Maybe the church where the funeral was held?

The book on Violette Morris: "Violette Morris la Hyene de la Gestapo" in now available.
When it was announced end of 2002, the title was "Violette Morris l'amazone de la Gestapo".
Amazone was probably too nice.

Originally posted by marat
The book on Violette Morris: "Violette Morris la Hyene de la Gestapo" in now available.
When it was announced end of 2002, the title was "Violette Morris l'amazone de la Gestapo".
Amazone was probably too nice.

A search on Amazon reveals two books, sadly in French:-

L'honneur ratatiné d'une athlète lesbienne en 1930 (Collection "Le sens de l'histoire") -- Christian Gury

La diablesse: La véritable histoire de Violette Morris -- Raymond Ruffin

Does anyone know of any translations?

PdeRL

Sorry...I don't know of any translations - but perhaps a nudge back to the top will stir some recollections

I'm reading the Bugatti Queen at the moment...and that Violette Morris comes across as a nasty piece of work. The above pic confirms it. I suppose if she'd lived nowadays she'd have had a sex change.

Originally posted by condor
I'm reading the Bugatti Queen at the moment...

I couldn't believe my eyes a few weeks ago when I went to a local bookstore and found FIVE copies of this book on the shelf. Keep in mind that I live smack dab in the heart of NASCAR country. I very nearly bought a copy but decided that I'd hold off and see what others thought about it. I figure I've got plenty of time.

Originally posted by condor

... I suppose if she'd lived nowadays she'd have had a sex change.

Looks to me as though she did ;)

PdeRL

Originally posted by Rob G

I very nearly bought a copy but decided that I'd hold off and see what others thought about it. I figure I've got plenty of time.

I'm about half way through it - only started reading it yesterday...and although it's factual, it reads like fiction. So very easy to read and enjoyable
I'd never heard of her....but the interest already I've gained by reading the first half...has had me checking the TNF search facility...to see if it's really factual or not...and it does seem to be
I thoroughly recommend it.
Hope to finish it this weekend....but am already intrigued enough to find out more about the villains.

Originally posted by VAR1016


Looks to me as though she did ;)

PdeRL

Earlier in the thread someone posted that she'd had breast reduction....I read that she'd had them lopped off....(akin to a double masectomy sp?)
Perhaps the previous poster was being gentlemanly and discreet...

Originally posted by condor


Earlier in the thread someone posted that she'd had breast reduction....I read that she'd had them lopped off....(akin to a double masectomy sp?)
Perhaps the previous poster was being gentlemanly and discreet...

Just my impression based on the picture - but yes there was the mastectomy - all very weird - although in this era of "nip & tuck" perhaps not!

PdeRL

Brassai's famous photograph "Lesbian Couple at Le Monocle"




Violette Morris is the one with the tie.

This forum never ceases to amaze. I was at a local second hand bookshop the other day and saw a copy of the Bugatti Queen, but passed it over in favour of a copy of "Such Sweet Thunder: The story of the Ford Grand Prix Engine: (Blunsden and Phipps pub 1971) , yet when I came on to do my usual weekly lurking exercise on the Nostalgia Forum, there I find the story of this intriguing woman at the very top of the list.

I sense a return trip to the bookshop in the next few days....

Originally posted by KJJ
Brassai's famous photograph "Lesbian Couple at Le Monocle"




Violette Morris is the one with the tie.

Shurely not...

PdeRL

Originally posted by Rob G

I couldn't believe my eyes a few weeks ago when I went to a local bookstore and found FIVE copies of this book on the shelf. Keep in mind that I live smack dab in the heart of NASCAR country. I very nearly bought a copy but decided that I'd hold off and see what others thought about it. I figure I've got plenty of time.

Rob: extracts from the book were read on BBC Radio 4's "Woman's Hour" (a top-rated programme here and very influential in selling books). Perhaps some public service broadcaster on your side of the Big Pond has picked up on it and will be running the serialisation?

For those in the UK, the paperback edition is due in the next couple of weeks.

Madelier - we aim to please!!!

Of course Miranda Seymour is a "big name" author with a large following of readers. Bugatti Queen was also reviewed in nearly all the UK broadsheets. I would guess a majority of those who have read the book are not at all interested in Motor-Racing.

The book is fascinating with some very good photographs but I wonder if Ms Seymour makes too much of Helle-Nice? I am not sure of the "creative reconstruction" technique she employs on occasions.

Originally posted by KJJ
The book is fascinating with some very good photographs but I wonder if Ms Seymour makes too much of Helle-Nice? I am not sure of the "creative reconstruction" technique she employs on occasions.

That's an interesting statement ( I've nearly finished reading it).
I got the impresiion that Miranda Seymour had really researched her topic well...and had included a lot of descriptive pieces to make the reader feel what she was feeling/ imagining. I was particularly struck by a comment re the German occupation of France and the curfews and how it was like the blue period of Picasso. Immediately I had a vivid picture in my mind.
I applaud her 'creative reconstruction' in bringing to life that era....so much better than the dull, lifeless facts that other books so often can become a chore to read.

btw...nice to read that the evil Violette Morris got her comeuppance by being machine -gunned by 5 members of the French resistance.

Another technique Ms Seymour uses is the speculative deconstruction of photographs. For example the observation that her mother is not looking into the camera in one picture taken by her daughter is cited as possible evidence that Helle-Nice was abused as a child. The fact that Chiron has his arms folded in a photograph of the drivers' meeting at Biela in 1935 is evidence of his hostility. Are the authors who frequent this board missing out by not using this technique? What insights might be obtained by the intelligent deconstruction of photographs of Colin Chapman for example?

No doubt these reconstructions and deconstructions make for interesting reading. There will be occasions when they may indeed illuminate a subject, while at other times they will perhaps mislead. The problem is how can we tell when a speculation hits the target or when it sails wide?

By the way I see from the Sunday papers that Bugatti Queen is now available in paperback and I agree with condor it is a very enjoyable book and very well written.

Originally posted by KJJ
For example the observation that her mother is not looking into the camera in one picture taken by her daughter is cited as possible evidence that Helle-Nice was abused as a child. .

The book is very fresh in my mind...I finished it this evening
The possible evidence re child abuse was due to the fact Helle was promiscuous, unable to commit to a sole partner...and quite often had 3 men on the go at the same time...supposedly classic symptoms of child abuse I disagree with her thinking there....and then there was her long-term relationship with Arnaldo Binelli which contradicts her arguement.

The possible reason cited that her mother looked away from the camera was the mother suspected Helle of having a flirtation with Jean Bernard ( the mother's partner)...she certainly looks displeased...and even solange looks agitated.

I don't think it was a posed photo...one of those quick snapped candid shots most likely

' Does any one know where helle Nice is buried? I am in Nice again this summer so it would be a gentlemanly and respectful thing to place some flowers on her grave on behalf of all of her latterday admirers on TNF. '

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last year I attend a talk by Miranda Seymour at the Oxford Union as part of The Oxford Literary Festival where she spoke about how she got to write the book in the first place and about Helle.
It was not long after publication and books were for sale and she signed a number after the talk.

At the end of her talk she revealed that she herself had now restored Helle's name to family headstone. Perhaps the recent paperback version contains this information?

She was on Ned Sherrins' Loose Ends on BBC Radio 4 last weekend - perhaps it can be heard on the BBC website? She said on the programme she was going to a car show in France very soon,
presumably Retromobile.

I’m trying to sort out the Bugattis of Mme. Hellé Nice, but got stucked.

Fact is that she owned the T35C #4863, which she bought 2nd hand at Molsheim for FF 40.000 on 29.3.1930, as this is documented by an invoice. This car most probably had been sold new to the Netherlands in 1927, and returned to Molsheim in 1929. The same car she used already for her record run at Montlhery on 18.12.1929, then still owned by the factory. The registration when owned by Hellé Nice is not known to me.

Strange enough 2 months later she appeared at the Bugatti Grand Prix with an unsupercharged T35, registration 2066RD9. The car had the narrow radiator of the first series and no supercharger hole.

From September 1931 onwards she used frequently one of Philippe de Rothschild’s Bugattis, a T35C with #4921 and registration 2678RB6.

Some questions arise.

#4863 in 1937 was imported to the UK from Holland by car dealer Jack Lemon Burton and sold to a certain C.S. Clark on 12.8.1937. It looks somewhat strange that a car went new to Holland, is resold by the manufacturer 1 ½ years later, and then obviously went back to Holland again.

What could have been the reason for Hellé Nice to accquire an outdated and uncompetitive u/s T35 just 2 months after the T35C? There are no reports that the 35C was crashed, and she used it again after the return from the USA. At that time she was still rather wealthy, Miranda Seymour in "Bugatti Queen" wrote that her daily transport was a Hispano-Suiza, and that she owned a 22 meter sailing yacht, for which a single repair bill showed a sum as high as FF 250.000.

Seymours race log shows a 7th place in the 1.5 litre class at the 1931 Circuit du Dauphiné (Grenoble). Some of the wellknown race statistics say it was a T37A. So far so good, but a picture of her at Grenoble clearly shows the registration 2066RD9. So could it be that the unsupercharged T35 was in fact a T37A? But all other entries for 2066RD9 had been in the GP class, also at events whith a parallel voiturette race.
A T37A would explain the narrow radiator, but not the missing supercharger hole. That would point to an u/s T37, which sounds somewhat unlikely for a pure racing car. To make it more difficult, 2066RD9 was fitted with the T35 alloy wheels, which as I understand could not that easily fitted to a wirewheeled T37 or T35A.
The car is reported to have been sold to Charles Brackenbury at an unknown date.

To increase the confusion Seymour is talking about a 3rd Bugatti owned by Hellé Nice (#4921 was always owned by de Rothschild, so it does not count), also an unsupercharged one. But no details are disclosed, despite that this car she sold in 1934 at Dieppe to the British driver Freddie Clifford.

The available data about Charles Brackenbury are confusing. Leif Snelman writes that from 1935 on he raced with an ex-Mme. Hellé-Nice Bugatti T35C, but in this TNF thread
http://forums.autosp...?threadid=89768 it is said that the T35C belonged to Charlie Martin. But mentioned is also a T37 which he bought in 1930, but this could not be Hellé Nice's car which she still used in 1931.

Freddie Clifford was present at the 1934 Dieppe GP where he raced an Alfa 8C Monza, as did Hellé Nice (still owned by her actual lover Lehoux, but later taken over by her).

However, there seems to be a certain relation between Brackenbury and Clifford, so possibly it was only one car sold. I also would not exclude that it was her T35C #4863 which went either to Brackenbury or to Clifford.

Anybody able to shed some light on this confusing story?

A couple of points:
The Bugatti GP was open only to unsupercharged cars, so her 35C would not have been eligible. She may well have acquired the T35 for that race alone.
Martin and Brackenbury were indeed associates, and unless there is evidence of both appearing in different 35Cs in the same race, I suspect we are tallking about just one car. My records show Brackenbury as owner of the 35C (Martin had a 35B at about the same time)

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Bugatti GP was open only to unsupercharged cars, so her 35C would not have been eligible. She may well have acquired the T35 for that race alone.

Good point, I forgot this! But the same car she used various time in 1930-31 documented also by photos.
So either it was indeed a T35, or a T37. Basically she could start with a T37 also in GP races, but not with a T35 in a voiturette race. So how should we value Grenoble? Hellé Nice was extremely ambitous, so it would be strange that she used a T37 in a GP by owning also a T35C.

Originally posted by David McKinney
Martin and Brackenbury were indeed associates, and unless there is evidence of both appearing in different 35Cs in the same race, I suspect we are tallking about just one car. My records show Brackenbury as owner of the 35C (Martin had a 35B at about the same time) [/B]

Hellé Nice's files resp, scrapbooks show that to Brackenbury she sold the "unsupercharged car", but possibly this is wrong. Clifford owned a 8C Monza, which surely was superior to the T35C Bugatti, so why should he buy one? A T37 would make more sense, either as voiturette racer, or for road use.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by monoposto
[B]' Does any one know where helle Nice is buried? I am in Nice again this summer so it would be a gentlemanly and respectful thing to place some flowers on her grave on behalf of all of her latterday admirers on TNF. '

Please have a look at -

http://www.findagrav...&GRid=15451594

Back to "Helle-Nice". In the book it is claimed she had a fling with a Neuilly garage owner called Roger Bonnet. The name Bonnet does appear in some hill-climb results but in 1934 there was a driver called Eonnet who enjoyed some success in a Bugatti. Eonnet competed with and against "Helle-Nice". Bonnet, Eonnet. Is this a typo, now potboiled or were they different people?

John

(With apologies for bumping a very old thread)

Yesterday my father was chatting to an elderly lady at his Art Group who happened to mention that her father had been involved in motor racing before the war. On the very off chance he may have heard of him my father asked what his name was, and she replied "Roger Bonnet". By a freak co-incidence he had recently read the Bugatti Queen book and made the connection. By an even bigger co-incidence he actually had the book on him so triumphantly produced it and turned to the page on which Roger Bonnet is discussed. That mood pretty soon changed to embarrasment when he had to reveal her fathers affair with Mlle Helle-Nice....

Apparently although she had known nothing of it, it came as nothing of a surprise!

Recently I stumbled across this photo of Helle Nice in front of here Omega 6 at Montlhery. After reading Bugatti Queen I would say this is her about to start in her first race.
Noticed her relaxed somewhat tense (nervous?) expression, unlike most pictures where she appears exuberant as always. So most likely before the event.

Recently I stumbled across this photo of Helle Nice in front of here Omega 6 at Montlhery. After reading Bugatti Queen I would say this is her about to start in her first race.
Noticed her relaxed somewhat tense (nervous?) expression, unlike most pictures where she appears exuberant as always. So most likely before the event.

Great find. Thank for posting it. I really enjoyed this book. I'm now reading a biography of Ayn Rand. I'm constantly impressed with the diligent research carried out by the best biographers.

Jack.

I have been given a second copy of Bugatti Queen, if anyone would like it please send me a PM. (UK only because of the postage)

And then one finds some more. After reading some issues of the Scuderia Ferrari magazines published in the thirties, I was surprised to see a page devoted to the nasty shunt of Helle in Brazil.
As the pics will not clarify fully the cause and scenario of this big one, it is still interesting to study I guess.
Of course this was published in the Suderia magazine as Helle raced an Alfa.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And the text reads:

"The unfortunate French racing driver victim of a dreadful accident when she was about to get her well-earned laurels at the first Grand Prix of Sao Paulo.
Three speaking snapshots."

[quote name='Paul Rochdale' date='Feb 23 2007, 10:15' post='2633219']
[QUOTE]Originally posted by monoposto
[B]' Does any one know where helle Nice is buried? I am in Nice again this summer so it would be a gentlemanly and respectful thing to place some flowers on her grave on behalf of all of her latterday admirers on TNF. '





There was a fine ( I nearly wrote nice) article about Helle in the programme for last week's La Vie en Bleu at Prescott. Apparently she is at last to be honoured with a ceremony at the family tomb at Sainte-Mesme, where a bronze plaque is due to be unveiled by Sheryl Greene, President of the Helle Nice Foundation on September 4th this year.For more information about the ceremony refer to "les femmes rapides"
http:/hellenice foundation.blogspot.com
Chris

The link to the Helle Nice Foundation (above) isn't quite correct, as I tried it and failed to get there. The correct link is <http://hellenicefoun....blogspot.com/>

Marticelli

The link to the Helle Nice Foundation (above) isn't quite correct, as I tried it and failed to get there. The correct link is <http://hellenicefoun....blogspot.com/>

Marticelli

BBC Radio is currently serialising the Helle Nice book:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ueen_Episode_1/

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ueen_Episode_2/

One presumes further episodes will follow.

NB - those outside the UK can listen to BBC radio, unlike the TV streams. Better get them while you can though - they're up until the 26th.

Justin

BBC Radio is currently serialising the Helle Nice book:



One presumes further episodes will follow.

NB - those outside the UK can listen to BBC radio, unlike the TV streams. Better get them while you can though - they're up until the 26th.

Justin

BBC Radio7-3.15pm today,tomorrow &friday.This is Harriet Walter reading from the book,so if you have it it I guess you will not learn anything new?

French Female Racecar Driver Hellé Nice to be honored at Gravesite after Twenty Six Years “Foundation Will Position Grave Marker during September Ceremony in Ste-Mesme France”

ATLANTA, GA (July 21, 2010)

The Hellé Nice Foundation has announced a ceremony to be held in Ste-Mesme, France on September 4, 2010 honoring French female racecar driver Hellé Nice. “For 26 years, Hellé has rested in an unmarked grave and our foundation’s first project has been to raise funds and place a marker on her grave”, shares Sheryl Greene, founder of The Hellé Nice Foundation. A Service of Commemoration will be held at the Ste-Mesme church and in the adjoining cemetery where the marker will be placed. Speakers include Miranda Seymour, author of the Hellé Nice biography “The Bugatti Queen”, Dr. Patricia Lee Yongue, motorsports historian and Associate Professor of English at the University of Houston, and Sheryl Greene, originator and founder of The Hellé Nice Foundation. “Upon reading Ms. Seymour’s biography of Hellé Nice, I was enthralled with her race history and perseverance and amazed no one had publicly celebrated her life and accomplishments. I decided at that moment to start the foundation with a goal of properly honoring her”, says Greene. Additional ceremony guests include Annie Soisbault, Triumph Works driver, famous for her performances in rallies and on the track racing legendary race cars of the 50’s and 60’s and Jean-Pierre Beltoise, the driver who restored hope to French motor sport and winner of the 1972 Monaco GP. Several surviving members of Hellé’s family will also be present to speak on this special occasion. Club Bugatti France will exhibit several examples of Bugatti motorcars Hellé Nice drove on the track, as well as on the road. Those attending are invited to bring their own classic and vintage cars along with flowers to place on the grave. “We invite lovers and devotees of the car in general, and of motor sport in particular, to join us in restoring the memory of one of automobile history’s great women racers”, notes Sheryl Greene. The ceremony begins at the church in Ste-Mesme located at Chemin de l'Eglise, 78739 Sainte-Mesme, France, on September 04, 2010 at 11:00AM (Paris time)

Media Contact:
Cindy Meitle
CAR PR USA
480 277-1864
cindy@carprusa.com

USA Contact: Sheryl Greene
404.429.9600
hellenicefoundation@gmail.com

European Contact:
Bruno Perrin
011 33 01 30 59 42 39
bruno.perrin3@wanadoo.fr

[From: http://hellenicefoun...on.blogspot.com]

Some time ago, I had the chance to look through the Helle Nice personal scrap books. I must say that knowing her story, it was a bit overwhelming to be able to look into a little window of her life.

Edited by Aero426, 23 July 2010 - 14:22.

I think her story would make a great movie, I tried contacting her but got no response back; I thought it would be a good role for her.

I think her story would make a great movie, I tried contacting her but got no response back; I thought it would be a good role for her.

I don't doubt it, David, since she passed away in 1984!

Doug, did you know that Brian Brunkhorst owns one of her Bugattis?

Tom

RA Historian:

My apologies, I meant to say I contacted Hillary Swank through a letter about the role and the book. Sorry for the brain fart. I think it would be a good role for Hillary Swank to play.

I never heard back from Hillary.

Edited by David M. Kane, 23 July 2010 - 19:48.

RA Historian:

My apologies, I meant to say I contacted Hillary Swank through a letter about the role and the book. Sorry for the brain fart. I think it would be a good role for Hillary Swank to play.

I never heard back from Hillary.

Probably thought you were just another sex-crazed groupie.
Tom

I don't doubt it, David, since she passed away in 1984!

Doug, did you know that Brian Brunkhorst owns one of her Bugattis?

Tom

Brian owns her Bugatti T35C, as well as her scrapbooks and at least one trunk full of her material.

This is the Helle' Nice T35C; Brian Brunkhorst looks on, probably in horror, as I attempt to find reverse gear.

Turns out the Hillary Swank movie "Amelia" only did $14.2M off a cost of $40M. So maybe my movie idea isn't so hot!

Edited by David M. Kane, 24 July 2010 - 00:45.

RA Historian:

My apologies, I meant to say I contacted Hillary Swank through a letter about the role and the book. Sorry for the brain fart. I think it would be a good role for Hillary Swank to play.

I never heard back from Hillary.

I would have contacted this lady....I think she would do a great job

http://www.evamendes.../eva-mendes.jpg

I would have contacted this lady....I think she would do a great job

http://www.evamendes.../eva-mendes.jpg

Don't think thats the way it works.You need to find a producer/director first and they hire the actors?
My choice might be Harriet Walter who read from the book this week.Curiously one of the last lines quoted was that all Helene's scrapbooks had been lost- now one Brian Brunckhorst seems to have found them?
I have a video of 'The Amy Johnson Story' staring Harriet.

I would choose Jessica Biel, or a French actress would be a logical choice.