Mlle. Hellé-Nice

I think that a good writer could work the tragedies and triumphs and dangers of early modern motor racing into an interesting narrative - conflict of desires, conscience, that sort of thing. The fact that Helle-Nice spent a good proportion of her life not quite following the moral code of her time could make this into something quite compelling. Bringing in Violette Morris as a character might work, too.

 

A French director, I feel, would be appropriate.

I think you're right, but then we'd expect to have the Eiffel Tower visible in most of the backgrounds. The girl was a bit of a goer in her time, we've seen a few of her "artistic" poses, and threesomes were rumoured among other things, so at the very least it would be PG.

Ellay-Neece is how it should sound, I think.

I think that a good writer could work the tragedies and triumphs and dangers of early modern motor racing into an interesting narrative - conflict of desires, conscience, that sort of thing. 

Miranda Seymour wrote a great book. It's possibly a good film too.

But it's about the people, innit? We want to know about Helle and the racers. We can cope if the cars are decent fakes.

"The fact that Helle-Nice spent a good proportion of her life not quite following the moral code of her time could make this into something quite compelling."

That's a great angle. But we all want to know the background for Chiron's accusations. It is impossible to tell the Helle Nice story without asking a blunt question. Was Helle Nice a quisling, or did Chiron get it wrong?

I think you're right, but then we'd expect to have the Eiffel Tower visible in most of the backgrounds. The girl was a bit of a goer in her time, we've seen a few of her "artistic" poses, and threesomes were rumoured among other things, so at the very least it would be PG.

 

 

That's a great angle. But we all want to know the background for Chiron's accusations. It is impossible to tell the Helle Nice story without asking a blunt question. Was Helle Nice a quisling, or did Chiron get it wrong?

No-one seems to know what their basis was, or it hasn't been widely discussed. The most I've heard is that she couldn't give any convincing accounts of what she actually did during the war. I think Miranda Seymour investigated the German archives, but couldn't find anything there.

I do agree that this would have to be a key part of the story, as it was the gateway to her big downfall and possibly to her latter life spent in poverty.

Bit of a punt, but in that regard it should be noted that the wartime archives of the Principality of Monaco are still closed and there are quite a few unanswered questions regarding its experience during WW2.

http://stutenzeehist...-world-war.html

http://www.theguardi...s-to-nazi-camps

For example, I'm intrigued to know how Lucy Schell managed to live there throughout the war, without apparently ever being interned, despite being a US citizen.

A quote from the first article "While Louis may appear a collaborator, whatever he did would have been done by any powerless prince to save his stamp sized country caught between super powers."  rather says it all.

Bit of a punt, but in that regard it should be noted that the wartime archives of the Principality of Monaco are still closed and there are quite a few unanswered questions regarding its experience during WW2.

 

http://stutenzeehist...-world-war.html

 

http://www.theguardi...s-to-nazi-camps

 

For example, I'm intrigued to know how Lucy Schell managed to live there throughout the war, without apparently ever being interned, despite being a US citizen.

Didn't she travel on an Irish passport?

Didn't she travel on an Irish passport?

Can't say I'd ever heard that. I think it's unlikely. And when Lucy died her death was reported by the US Consulate as a death of a US citizen overseas. It is actually possible for someone to be a US citizen throughout their life - be born, live and die abroad - without ever setting foot in the United States. I believe Lucy almost falls into that category, since she was born in Paris, lived almost all her life in France and Monaco and died in Monaco, but she did visit the US at least once. I've also traced the journey her son Philip made from France to the United States in 1942 - via Lisbon on a Swedish ship, carrying hundreds of Americans who had been in Europe when war was declared in December 1941, plus several hundred aliens. His US passport had been issued at the consulate in Nice in April 1941, but unless Lucy travelled under an alias she didn't accompany him. Philip's address in the US was given as care of Harris Upham, a New York brokerage firm - he's the only person on the ship's passenger manifest to whom that applies.

The BEST naked Racing Driver I have ever clapped eyes on

The BEST naked Racing Driver I have ever clapped eyes on

... and that list is how long?

We now need to see the Valli Stack Mallory Park Autosport pic. (Purely for comparative purposes of course)

Actually quite interesting from a historical body image point of view. In her time, Helle-Nice was considered Hot Stuff, as she obviously is here, too. Nowadays, she would be considered flat chested and a bit chubby for that kind of photography. Although she isn't fat, she isn't muscular and "toned" like models today (and racing drivers, come to think about it) are expected to be.

Despite the nearly 50-year gap, the classically pretty Valli would be considered the same way.

Actually quite interesting from a historical body image point of view. In her time, Helle-Nice was considered Hot Stuff, as she obviously is here, too. Nowadays, she would be considered flat chested and a bit chubby for that kind of photography. Although she isn't fat, she isn't muscular and "toned" like models today (and racing drivers, come to think about it) are expected to be.

 

Despite the nearly 50-year gap, the classically pretty Valli would be considered the same way.

Looks very good to me, and she clearly hasn't been to Brazil.

Were it not for surgically-administered silicone, very many females in the public eye today would be considered "flat-chested". Amazes me that some apparently find the results attractive.

PS, I've read the book, so I know all about São Paulo...

Edited by kayemod, 28 September 2015 - 13:55.

Surprised to be first to press the "like" button.....

Is that a euphemism?

Is that a euphemism?

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 28 September 2015 - 16:25.

... and that list is how long?

Does anyone have any naked pictures of Francois Cevert or Dario Franchitti please? 

Does anyone have any naked pictures of Francois Cevert or Dario Franchitti please? 

I've got both those, but I'll swap them for two of you on a nudist beach or in the shower.

It's getting longer...

...as the bishop said to the actress.

Can't say I'd ever heard that. I think it's unlikely. And when Lucy died her death was reported by the US Consulate as a death of a US citizen overseas. It is actually possible for someone to be a US citizen throughout their life - be born, live and die abroad - without ever setting foot in the United States. I believe Lucy almost falls into that category, since she was born in Paris, lived almost all her life in France and Monaco and died in Monaco, but she did visit the US at least once. I've also traced the journey her son Philip made from France to the United States in 1942 - via Lisbon on a Swedish ship, carrying hundreds of Americans who had been in Europe when war was declared in December 1941, plus several hundred aliens. His US passport had been issued at the consulate in Nice in April 1941, but unless Lucy travelled under an alias she didn't accompany him. Philip's address in the US was given as care of Harris Upham, a New York brokerage firm - he's the only person on the ship's passenger manifest to whom that applies.

And although this is totally O/T in a Helle-Nice thread, I've also found Lucy's 1915 trip to America. She's on the list of US citizens, but with no birthplace shown (if she had been born within the US it would have been recorded as such) and described in the 'naturalised or other' category as 'from American natives'.

And although this is totally O/T in a Helle-Nice thread, I've also found Lucy's 1915 trip to America. She's on the list of US citizens, but with no birthplace shown (if she had been born within the US it would have been recorded as such) and described in the 'naturalised or other' category as 'from American natives'.

Can you explain further? Does it mean that Lucy could not become US President?

Can you explain further? Does it mean that Lucy could not become US President?

It's just an indication that she was born abroad, but in law still a US citizen, thanks to her parentage. Her mother - who travelled with her - was born in Reading PA and her father was a naturalised US citizen. This is the current legislation, but I've found nothing to indicate that the situation would have been different when Lucy was born: http://travel.state....orn-abroad.html No idea on whether she could have become President though! Harry also travelled on a US passport when he accompanied les deux Renés to Indy in 1940.

I can only assume that - having been born in France - Lucy had managed to acquire papers which stated she was a French citizen. From my reading of Monégasque citizenship laws she would have had to live there for at least ten years and be granted it at the discretion of the Prince. She does seem to have had some powerful friends, given that she managed to get Dreyfus and Le Bègue released from the army.

She definitely could not be President of the United States since one of the conditions of eligibility is to be a resident in the country.for fourteen years.

Originally posted by davidsmanson
"Baroness Maria Antoinette Avanzo, a large landholder in Italy and part proprietress of an Italian sporting paper largely devoted to automobilism and aeronautics" (Australian Motor Owner, Sep.1924). She may have spent 18 months in Australia, with a son and daughter, and the same mag says she bought a farming property here. This source says she was on a world trip to recover from a motor racing accident, another says the accident happened in an aeroplane over Mount Vesuvius!

Claimed to have driven in the 1922 Targa Florio].....

It appears the legend of Hellé-Nice lives on in Brazil. The cultural influence of both her and Carlo Pintacuda's pre-WW2 visits has - I think - been mentioned here before and I'd heard that Brazilian girls had been named after her. After his exploits on the Devil's Springboard in Rio, 'Pintacuda' became synonymous with speed - in the 1940s there was even a Brazilian racehorse called Pintacuda - but note the name of the lady police officer involved in this investigation: Helenice Vidigal.

BBC Article - https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/45796892

Edited by Kilted Wanderer, 10 October 2018 - 18:35.

BBC Article - https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/45796892

I suspect that was a re-write of an older piece to coincide with the W Series for women racers. But it was an excellent promo piece for Miranda Seymour's biography of Helle Nice.

Seymour's biography sets a high standard for any racing driver story.

Splashed all over the BBC website this morning I notice, as background to the past week's women-only racing Formula fuss (which to me seems a realistic, if quite probably ill-fated, development)... Its chances of success might well be ruined by opposition from those who still insist that female drivers MUST race on a level par with males. Another case, perhaps, of turning a blind eye to relative design parameters?  It doesn't happen in swimming, track and gym athletics, field athletics, top-level cycling, rowing, boxing and for all I know in meaningful-level (if there is such a thing) tennis, golf, wrestling, football, rugby etc etc.

I was absolutely delighted to see the likes of Desi Wilson, Michele Mouton, Yvette Fontaine etc succeed at the levels they achieved in motor sport but to insist upon parity while attacking a considered innovation like the new Formula just looks like a shot squarely placed in the feminist foot...  Or am I too old to understand?  

DCN

In coming - https://www.speedcaf...24-hours-drive/ great really.

My wife thinks its time.

Edited by Patrick Fletcher, 13 October 2018 - 11:57.

Here is what the certificates read :

Mariette Hélène DELANGLE, born 15 December 1900 in her parents' house in Aunay-sous-Auneau (Eure-et-Loir) — not far from Dreux and Rambouillet
Daughter of Aristide Léon DELANGLE, 35 year old, facteur-receveur (postman cum post office boss — he obviously was the only employee in the post office of Aunay, at the time...)
and of his wife Alexandrie Estelle BOUILLIE, 27 year old, no occupation
Never married
Died 1 October 1984 at 18 p.m. at Nice, 38 avenue de la République
She was then considered as a "retraitée"

Both letters which I own a photocopy are from the late 1970s. They are very sad to read (heavy problems of health, money and everyday life).
Is it really necesary that I try to translate them ? Who cares ?

I'm tv director working on a documentary ...  How can we get in touch ?

I'm tv director working on a documentary ...  How can we get in touch ?

Luc - I'm afraid Jimmy hasn't logged in here in the last ten years. However, check your personal messages.

Re Louis Chiron, does anyone have any detailed information concerning his activities during the war? I have read suggestions, here and elsewhere, that he was in Switzerland, or partly in Monaco. I have read that, on the one hand, he assisted in some unspecified way downed Allied air crew to escape back to Britain; on the other hand, that he did nothing at all. He certainly seems not to have been as engaged in the Resistance as some of his fellow drivers, such as "Williams", Benoist, Wimille and Veyron, two of whom were executed.

I am particularly interested in this because I have recently encountered someone with a family connection to the unfortunate "Hellé Nice". 

My impression is that there are a lot of 'Chinese whispers' where Chiron's war record - or lack thereof - is concerned. He seems almost to go to ground in 1940; in November of that year Maurice Henry, in l'Auto, names him as one of several possible candidates for what they hoped would be a 'Director of Mechanical Sports' under Vichy (the 'bounding Basque' Jean Borotra was of course the Vichy Sports Minister) - but as the list also includes Wimille, Sommer, ‘Raph’, Étançelin and Benoist it was probably just a bit of kite-flying. He was re-elected to his post at the AC de Monaco the next month, but, after that, I've found almost nothing until 1946 when the Journal Officiel de Monaco records that 'La Médaille de Première Classe de l'Education Physique et des Sports est attribuée à ... Louis Chiron, ancien Champion du Monde (Automobile)'. [Which is news to me!]

https://journaldemon...d9a6e0c3ed1.pdf (page 3, col 1)

The wartime archives of the principality are still closed, so that's pretty much a dead end, and there is AFAIK no reliable history of the war years there. Monaco was of course officially neutral throughout the war, although it was occupied by Italian forces in November 1942 and then by the Germans after the fall of Mussolini. So presumably travel to Switzerland would have been impossible once the Italians arrived, and then until the German withdrawal in early September 1944; Monaco was liberated by US paratroops on September 8th.

I do wonder if the suggestion about downed airmen may be a confusion with the work of Pete de Paolo, who - as a USAAF officer - was responsible for the well-being of US aircrews who had force-landed in Switzerland and had been interned.

Chiron is mentioned here, in a Swiss paper from June 1942, as being a participant in a meeting of 'anciens pilotes' in Paris:

http://doc.rero.ch/r.../1942-06-17.pdf (page 7)

The same newspaper says in March 1943 that Chiron is 'on the Riviera, whence he originates'.

Those are the only two mentions I've found which mention his whereabouts - and both put him in France and/or Monaco. Nothing in the Swiss press suggests he was in Switzerland.
 

A new book about Chiron is about to appear.

A new book about Chiron is about to appear.

The subtitle seems rather at odds with his reputation, not to mention Anthony Pritchard's assessment of him in Ferrari: Men from Maranello.

What subtitle?   

Possibly this in the promotional blurb?

Louis Chiron, the Monegasque who was the undisputed Bugatti Champion and one of the greatest on the motorsport scene.

The "undisputed Bugatti champion"... 

What subtitle? 

I found some details of a presentation by the author and publisher at Autoclassica, which was entitled 'Louis Chiron, l’incredibile storia del pilota gentiluomo'. It was advertised using the same photo as on the book cover and I suspect that phrase may appear on the title page.

Incredible? Possibly. Perhaps in the literal rather than the figurative sense. 'Gentleman?' Your call ...

Perhaps, like Mr Salteena in The Young Visiters, "not quite a gentleman but you'd hardly notice".

The "undisputed Bugatti champion"... 

I think the term champion was commonly used pre-war in a loose sense, not necessarily meaning the winner of a formal championship. After all, there were very few compared with modern times.

Way back in 1970 I wrote to Louis Chiron asking for his memories of "Williams", for a desultory effort at a brief biography I didn't complete. I received a polite reply saying he was writing his autobiography and therefore preferred not to give his reminiscences. Sadly, he didn't seem to complete his book either.

Edited by Sterzo, 17 October 2020 - 13:09.

I think the term champion was commonly used pre-war in a loose sense, not necessarily meaning the winner of a formal championship. After all, there were very few compared with modern times.

 

Way back in 1970 I wrote to Louis Chiron asking for his memories of "Williams", for a desultory effort at a brief biography I didn't complete. I received a polite reply saying he was writing his autobiography and therefore preferred not to give his reminiscences. Sadly, he didn't seem to complete his book either.

Yes, the French still use the term "champion" in that rather loose sense. But "undisputed" is an exaggeration too far, I think. 

Edited by P.Dron, 17 October 2020 - 17:34.

Yes, the French still use the term "champion" in that rather loose sense. But "undisputed" is an exaggeration too far, I think. 

To be fair, that may be publisher's or vendor's hyperbole and not necessarily representative of the book contents

L'Auto has occasional news of Chiron. In their issue of March 16th 1941, they reported that he'd spent the some of the winter practising his skiing - and topping up his tan - at Auron:

https://gallica.bnf....m.r=Chiron.zoom

The meeting of 'anciens pilotes' is also reported in l'Auto, May 23rd 1942.

https://gallica.bnf....m.r=Chiron.zoom

Two weeks earlier, the same paper had reported Chiron's arrival in Paris, 'for the first time since the armistice', also revealing that the only times he occasionally left his home in Monaco were to take trips on his bicycle.

https://gallica.bnf....m.r=Chiron.zoom

Six days later, they reported that someone had pinched his bike!

https://gallica.bnf....m.r=Chiron.zoom

We really shouldn't give any more oxygen to the efforts of the French to claim that EVERYBODY was in the Resistance.  Some were (to their credit), some were collaborators but most people just got on with their lives as best they could - viz Rene Artois and his cafe in 'Allo 'Allo - and that probably included the Monegasques.

Whose efforts? It's something recognised by Anglo and French historiography on Vichy France, starting (but not limited) with Robert Paxton, since the 1970s.... See, per instance, https://www.amazon.c.../dp/0199254575/

I am at last reading The Bugatti Queen. High expectations dashed. Perhaps it was a mistake to read it immediately after David Tremayne's superb book, The Lost Generation, which I cannot praise highly enough.

Edited by P.Dron, 12 April 2021 - 13:10.