To make it equal, I have ignored additional drivers in three- or four-car teams, although they usually played a big role as well. Also, only pairs which ran at least a full season together in GP/F1 are eligible. Comments, please!
Best driver pairings
Started by
fines
, Oct 10 2001 20:32
50 replies to this topic
#1
fines
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 20:32
What was the best driver pairing in the history of Grand Prix Racing?
To make it equal, I have ignored additional drivers in three- or four-car teams, although they usually played a big role as well. Also, only pairs which ran at least a full season together in GP/F1 are eligible. Comments, please!
To make it equal, I have ignored additional drivers in three- or four-car teams, although they usually played a big role as well. Also, only pairs which ran at least a full season together in GP/F1 are eligible. Comments, please!
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#2
Rob G
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 21:36
I couldn't decide between Fangio/Moss and Senna/Prost based on talent alone. I finally went with Fangio & Moss since they got along with each other much better. I used the logic that teammates who cooperate make a better pairing than those who deliberately spoil each others' races.
#3
Vitesse2
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 21:45
Andretti/Peterson?
I haven't voted yet - I'll think a bit first ...
BTW Michael, I think you mean 1967-8 for Clark/Hill.
I haven't voted yet - I'll think a bit first ...
BTW Michael, I think you mean 1967-8 for Clark/Hill.
#4
Gary C
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 21:45
it has to be the 1973 JPS Lotus paring I'm afraid!
#5
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 21:48
Cariaccola & Lang got my vote but interested to see no Stewart/Cevert, Peterson/Andrett,i Scheckter/Villeneuve, Hakkinen/Coulthard, Fangio/Farina or Moss/Brooks above. However, even if they were included I think I would still plump for the above -partly as i can't choose between Fangio/Moss & Senna/Prost but also because they worked so well despite the many differences in person & style & mostly because of my long standing soft spot for Hermann Lang - my favourite of the pre-WW2 drivers.
#6
William Hunt
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 21:52
What about Häkkinen - Coulthard ? There should have been a lot more duo's out there, nice idea though. I haven't made up my mind yet but I certainly wouldn't choose Senna - Prost, they didn't get along at all (neither did Mansell - Piquet) and I think Prost is overrated, Senna is much better. I don't know yet which duo I will choose but Georges Boillot - Jules Goux certainly were a formidable duo in their Peugeots.
#7
FEV
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 22:06
My vote goes to Chiron-Varzi. It's a choice of the heart. Two of my favorite drivers. What a pair ! Chiron and Varzi together at Bugatti in 1931 is like having Michael Schumacher and Mika Häkkinen at Ferrari 70 years later ! They had the best cars, made the best out of it and as far as I know went along well despite very strong personalities. An example not followed by many since !!
The most constructive duo of them all must have been Villoresi-Ascari. Very much a maestro-son relationship, great friendship and admiration between them two. The Boillot-Goux pair of Peugeot was a very strong one too, produced great results in racing and made a lot for the make in general.
On the other side Caracciola-Lang / Mansell-Piquet / Senna-Prost I wouldn't vote for them. They didn't like each other and even if it produced some epic racing I am not found of the human aspect of these relationships.
A few other ones we could have included : Stewart-Cevert, Brabham-mcLaren, Lauda-Regazzoni, Lauda-Prost, Alési-Berger, Collins-Hawthorn...
The most constructive duo of them all must have been Villoresi-Ascari. Very much a maestro-son relationship, great friendship and admiration between them two. The Boillot-Goux pair of Peugeot was a very strong one too, produced great results in racing and made a lot for the make in general.
On the other side Caracciola-Lang / Mansell-Piquet / Senna-Prost I wouldn't vote for them. They didn't like each other and even if it produced some epic racing I am not found of the human aspect of these relationships.
A few other ones we could have included : Stewart-Cevert, Brabham-mcLaren, Lauda-Regazzoni, Lauda-Prost, Alési-Berger, Collins-Hawthorn...
#8
Barry Boor
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 22:11
My feelings are similar to Rob G's. Moss/Fangio shades it because they worked TOGETHER not against one another.
#9
William Hunt
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 22:18
On the other side Caracciola-Lang / Mansell-Piquet / Senna-Prost I wouldn't vote for them. They didn't like each other and even if it produced some epic racing I am not found of the human aspect of these relationships.
A few other ones we could have included : Stewart-Cevert, Brabham-mcLaren, Lauda-Regazzoni, Lauda-Prost, Alési-Berger, Collins-Hawthorn... [/B][/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more ! Or what about Patrese - Piquet , they were a great duo ! Peter Collins - Mike Hawthorn were great friends as well, not just teammates. Mike was devastated when Peter had died.
A few other ones we could have included : Stewart-Cevert, Brabham-mcLaren, Lauda-Regazzoni, Lauda-Prost, Alési-Berger, Collins-Hawthorn... [/B][/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more ! Or what about Patrese - Piquet , they were a great duo ! Peter Collins - Mike Hawthorn were great friends as well, not just teammates. Mike was devastated when Peter had died.
#10
FEV
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 22:21
Yes Piquet-Patrese ! Great pair. Another one could be Siffert-Rodriguez : team mates in F1 & Endurance. Sadly lost their lifes the same year too. There was a lot of rivalry between them but I think they also had a lot of respect for each other.
#11
Vitesse2
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 23:54
Originally posted by FEV
Yes Piquet-Patrese ! Great pair. Another one could be Siffert-Rodriguez : team mates in F1 & Endurance. Sadly lost their lifes the same year too. There was a lot of rivalry between them but I think they also had a lot of respect for each other.
FEV: next month's Motor Sport has a feature on Seppi and Pedro!
And on balance, I'll vote for Fangio/Moss, although I'm tempted to vote for Goux/Boillot simply because no-one else will (except Hans!)
#12
Kpy
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Posted 10 October 2001 - 23:55
Originally posted by Barry Boor
My feelings are similar to Rob G's. Moss/Fangio shades it because they worked TOGETHER not against one another.
Me too, for precisely the same reasons, if I may join your club. In both '55 and '88 one team won all the GPs bar one. But in '55 things were fouled up by the Le Mans disaster - so even fewer GPs than usual for the period - whereas '88 was so nearly a McLaren clean-sweep, but for a little over-enthusiasm on the part of J-L Schlesser. Would have made a dream team come true for a certain Woking resident............;)
And FEV, how I agree on Seppi/Pedro - I still love them both. And I always smile at that quote from Seppi - something like: "we're great friends, but each time we're on the track the little bastard tries to kill me"
#13
FEV
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 01:16
Yeah Seppi-Pedro 
! These two died before I was even born but they are among those who symbolise for me the true spirit of racing. Emotions, nostalgia... what a great loss that year !
V2,
Can't wait to see it ! Do you know who wrote it ? I've missed the last couple of issues of MotorSport (not so easy to find in France and overseas subscription is quite expensive). Sometimes I'm dissapointed with MotorSport : wonderful pics and great articles but if you take off all the ads, the issue loses two thirds of his weight. Too bad. Still, I won't miss the next one !!
I guess the Prost-Senna version was "We are not friends at all and each time we're on the track the little bastard tries to kil me"
! These two died before I was even born but they are among those who symbolise for me the true spirit of racing. Emotions, nostalgia... what a great loss that year !V2,
Can't wait to see it
! Do you know who wrote it ? I've missed the last couple of issues of MotorSport (not so easy to find in France and overseas subscription is quite expensive). Sometimes I'm dissapointed with MotorSport : wonderful pics and great articles but if you take off all the ads, the issue loses two thirds of his weight. Too bad. Still, I won't miss the next one !!"we're great friends, but each time we're on the track the little bastard tries to kill me"
I guess the Prost-Senna version was "We are not friends at all and each time we're on the track the little bastard tries to kil me"
#14
Kpy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 01:25
Originally posted by Vitesse2
simply because no-one else will
Good for you V2 !!
#15
schuy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 01:29
ciao a tutti,
guys, you should read Moss', new autobiography,
in which he shows, how close he and Mr. Fangio's racing was.
driving one exactly behind the other, slip streaming.
there are also some pictures, of their very intense driving.
what do you reckon?
ciao,
liran biderman.
guys, you should read Moss', new autobiography,
in which he shows, how close he and Mr. Fangio's racing was.
driving one exactly behind the other, slip streaming.
there are also some pictures, of their very intense driving.
what do you reckon?
ciao,
liran biderman.
#16
Kpy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 01:37
Do you mean the Robert Edwards book, or is there a better one??
#17
MPea3
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 01:46
i have to go with fangio/moss, although comparing driver pairings from different eras is obviously as difficult as comparing drivers...
#18
Kpy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 02:06
Originally posted by MPea3
comparing drivers...
Can't we leave that out, just for once ??
#19
Kpy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 02:10
Sorry MPea3 , we agree.
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#20
rdrcr
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 02:44
I had to go with Fangio / Moss
A tough call though... as others, i.e. Senna - Prost and some that Hunt, FEV and others thought of. With parings like Seppi & Pedro; Lauda & Regazzoni, Stewart & Cevert, etc. were just as compelling.
I think my choice was comprised of the two men's relationship with one another (mutual respect & competitive nature) and the era in which they drove...
A tough call though... as others, i.e. Senna - Prost and some that Hunt, FEV and others thought of. With parings like Seppi & Pedro; Lauda & Regazzoni, Stewart & Cevert, etc. were just as compelling.
I think my choice was comprised of the two men's relationship with one another (mutual respect & competitive nature) and the era in which they drove...
#21
Zawed
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 07:21
Prost/Senna, for their 1988 season together. Can't argue with 15 wins out of 16 races between them.
#22
Mohican
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 08:10
Hi there,
nobody appears to have mentioned Scheckter & Villeneuve in '79 ? Admittedly they did less well in '80, but then Ferrari had got left completely behind at that stage; and Jody lost interest.
Some of you think that the team mates in question had to be friends to qualify here, but surely the important thing is who were the most efficient driver pairing for their team - and above all relative to the competition at the time, and relative to the cars at their disposal ?
In which case you need also to consider:
Clark & Hill '67
Stewart & Cevert '70-73
Ickx & Regazzoni '70-72
Fittipaldi & Peterson '73
Reutemann & Pace '74-75
Reutemann & Villeneuve '78
Andretti & Peterson '78
Jones & Reutemann '80-81
Lauda & Prost '84
Senna & Berger '90-92
Hill & Villeneuve '96
Hakkinen & Coulthard '98-99
nobody appears to have mentioned Scheckter & Villeneuve in '79 ? Admittedly they did less well in '80, but then Ferrari had got left completely behind at that stage; and Jody lost interest.
Some of you think that the team mates in question had to be friends to qualify here, but surely the important thing is who were the most efficient driver pairing for their team - and above all relative to the competition at the time, and relative to the cars at their disposal ?
In which case you need also to consider:
Clark & Hill '67
Stewart & Cevert '70-73
Ickx & Regazzoni '70-72
Fittipaldi & Peterson '73
Reutemann & Pace '74-75
Reutemann & Villeneuve '78
Andretti & Peterson '78
Jones & Reutemann '80-81
Lauda & Prost '84
Senna & Berger '90-92
Hill & Villeneuve '96
Hakkinen & Coulthard '98-99
#23
dmj
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 09:18
I don't know how to choose between Boillot/Goux, Fangio/Moss and Senna/Prost... But pairing I admired most were Pironi/Lafitte.
#24
dmj
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 09:22
Vitesse2 Wrote:
Actually, I voted for same reason, but it seems I am the only one so far...
And on balance, I'll vote for Fangio/Moss, although I'm tempted to vote for Goux/Boillot simply because no-one else will (except Hans!)
Actually, I voted for same reason, but it seems I am the only one so far...
#25
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 09:27
FEV: sorry, dunno! But it looks to be the lead article for the November issue, so it should be fairly substantial. Publication is due in about 2 weeks - I'll PM you when it comes out here in the UK.
DMJ: ah, it was you was it? That'll be two of you then ...
DMJ: ah, it was you was it? That'll be two of you then ...
#26
FEV
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 09:42
Thanks V2, I'll try and book it in Paris. I now live far east in France and no airports or big towns with international press around !
#27
schuy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 11:42
ciao,
Kpy, i mean the Robert Edwards book, certainly.
have you read it?
ciao,
liran biderman.
Kpy, i mean the Robert Edwards book, certainly.
have you read it?
ciao,
liran biderman.
#28
fines
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 11:50
Thank you, Richard, for pointing that out! Somehow I recalled Hill driving for Lotus in 1966 already, and I actually needed to look it up now!Originally posted by Vitesse2
BTW Michael, I think you mean 1967-8 for Clark/Hill.
It's really hard to grow old gracefully...This has been a surprisingly popular poll so far, thank you all! Of course, there are many pairings that would've qualified for inclusion, but the BB software allows for only 10 options, so I had to skip quite a few. Keep those suggestions coming, they are part of the game!
As for the contest, it really looks like a head-to-head so far, very exciting! 13 each out of 34 for Fangio/Moss and Prost/Senna! But where are the oldtimers who remember Fernand Charron and René de Knyff?
#29
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 11:59
Originally posted by fines
But where are the oldtimers who remember Fernand Charron and René de Knyff?
Six feet under I think! We could always hold a seance - everybody join hands ... oh no, that won't work:lol:
#30
Racer.Demon
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 12:26
I picked Ascari and Villoresi, not for their post-war on-track accomplishments as team mates but rather for their enterprising joint war-time business exploits
Well, they were a driver pairing then too, weren't they?
Well, they were a driver pairing then too, weren't they?
#31
fines
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 12:27
I once tried that, honestly! With lots of mind-broadening stuffOriginally posted by Vitesse2
We could always hold a seance - everybody join hands...
, it was real fun! Didn't work either, though...
#32
FEV
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 12:54
We could always hold a seance - everybody join hands ...
That brings to my mind a little trivia question (easy one for you guys I guess): which famous writer (one of my favorites but that doesn't help you a lot !) was a founder of spiritualism and also an avid motorcar fan ? The winner gets a free chat with René de Knyff or Fernand Charron - you choose
#33
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 13:00
Rudyard Kipling?
#34
Leif Snellman
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 13:09
Well, most of the combinations mentioned are drivers working against each other rather than working together.Originally posted by fines
What was the best driver pairing in the history of Grand Prix Racing?
I think I would go for Senna - Berger or Fangio - Moss.
#35
servellen
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 13:12
Tough call for me. I've watched F1 only since 1988 and therfore got to see the Prost Senna thing happen and got really sucked into it. For the other previous parings I can only look at stats. which mean **** to me or listen to others who did see. I think a comparison is difficult unless you've really experienced each paring and not only have heard the great stories about them. -svs
#36
dmj
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 13:43
Mentioned writer and spiritualist was Arthur Conan Doyle, and his offspring used to contest some races, I think. I know they had a Mercedes SSK, sold at an auction a few years ago. But I don't know if father of Sherlock Holmes was a racer too, or just a motorsport fan... Any stories?
I gladly accept, but when you arrange it please inform me a few days before - I didn't speak French for a few years now and should renew it...
The winner gets a free chat with René de Knyff or Fernand Charron - you choose
I gladly accept, but when you arrange it please inform me a few days before - I didn't speak French for a few years now and should renew it...
#37
bobbo
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 14:28
My sentimental favorite:
1963 - 1965: Jack Brabham and Dan Gurney(of course
!)
Bobbo
1963 - 1965: Jack Brabham and Dan Gurney(of course
!)Bobbo
#38
FEV
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 16:59
dmj
Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle was a motoring fan since the early years of cars & motorcylces. On a motorsport level in entered a 9HP Roc for a biker called T.Terrier (or Terier ?) at the 1905 Tourist Trophy. He himself drove a car in a "rally between England, Scotland and Germany" in 1911. I don't know much more about this race or his car but maybe someone at TNF with a better knowledge of this era can help us.
His sons got the motor virus too. The two brothers (Adrian and ??) bought Louis Zborowski's first Chitty Chitty Bang Bang after his death, racing it in Brooklands among others. Adrian also raced on Bugatti in sports car races along the 30s and IIRC he even did a Nürburgring 1000km after the war.
V2,
Kipling was a good idea. He was also very into cars but I don't knwo about spiritualism. I think he was freemason wasn't he ? (which AFAIK doesn't prevent him from being spritualist).
Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle was a motoring fan since the early years of cars & motorcylces. On a motorsport level in entered a 9HP Roc for a biker called T.Terrier (or Terier ?) at the 1905 Tourist Trophy. He himself drove a car in a "rally between England, Scotland and Germany" in 1911. I don't know much more about this race or his car but maybe someone at TNF with a better knowledge of this era can help us.
His sons got the motor virus too. The two brothers (Adrian and ??) bought Louis Zborowski's first Chitty Chitty Bang Bang after his death, racing it in Brooklands among others. Adrian also raced on Bugatti in sports car races along the 30s and IIRC he even did a Nürburgring 1000km after the war.
V2,
Kipling was a good idea. He was also very into cars but I don't knwo about spiritualism. I think he was freemason wasn't he ? (which AFAIK doesn't prevent him from being spritualist).
#39
William Hunt
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 17:07
I have finally chosen Louis Chiron - Achille Varzi. What a line-up !
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#40
fines
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 17:23
... and it's still head-to-head, with 16 each for Fangio/Moss and Prost/Senna (after 42 votes)!
#41
Kpy
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Posted 11 October 2001 - 18:15
Originally posted by schuy
ciao,
Kpy, i mean the Robert Edwards book, certainly.
have you read it?
ciao,
liran biderman.
Yes I have and loved it. The format is great, the pictures are great and the book was a birthday present (totally unprompted) from three of my four daughters. My wife found it and read it -totally out of character. She was really interested in the post-accident bit, maybe because she has a very rare incurable illness, which she's detemined to beat. She is not interested in "My cars, My Career" or the "Design and Behaviour" book with Pomeroy jr. Shame.
#42
fines
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 11:42
Still head-to-head, this is unbelievable! 18 each out of 50 for Fangio/Moss and Prost/Senna!
#43
Roger Clark
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 16:10
Can I have a write-in vote for Nuvolari and Caracciola?
#44
FW07
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 16:28
Voted for Fangio/Moss, but I think Mansell/Patrese should have been included here. They produced some stunning drives and many 1 - 2 finishes for Williams between 1991-1992.
#45
Joe Fan
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 21:11
No doubt about it, Fangio and Moss by a country mile!
#46
oldtimer
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 21:24
Originally posted by Joe Fan
No doubt about it, Fangio and Moss by a country mile!
Ditto to that.
Some IMHO comments.
I thought Pedro overshadowed Seppi in the BRM team, though not in the Gulf Porshes.
Didn't Senna trip over Schlessor at Monza, rather than the other way around? Whilst the Senna/Prost pairing achieved mighty results, the in-fighting between them and Honda hardly made them a team.
Slightly OT, how about Moss/Brooks/Lewis Evans as the best 3 car team?
#47
FEV
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 22:12
Slightly OT, how about Moss/Brooks/Lewis Evans as the best 3 car team?
ALFA Corse's Triple F would be a great challenger to the Moss/Brooks/Lewis-Evans threesome ! And pre-war the Stuck/Varzi/Rosemeyer trio at Auto Union in 1935 is also impressive !
#48
Wolf
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 22:22
I was wondering about Brabham and Gurney- how did they work together, and why did they part company? Could've Dan achieved more if he stuck with Black Jack?
BTW, needless to say I voted for Moss/Fangio, but definitely not because of their battle for the no. 1 position with the team...;)
BTW, needless to say I voted for Moss/Fangio, but definitely not because of their battle for the no. 1 position with the team...;)
#49
schuy
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Posted 13 October 2001 - 22:23
ciao Kpy,
hey mate, very nice to hear, you and your wife loved the book.
regarding your wife's interest, i can certainly understand her, those parts of the enticing book, are really very interesting.
and if she needs the encouragement, it's all the better!
tell you what, though.
if she really wants a push, she should meet him.
i met him, at a book signing.
while standing there, i didn't know of his awful crash, actually.
but, whilst reading it, i was absolutely amazed.
i was reckoning, how could that man, stand and walk like that?
if she will see him, she would really be happy.
she would really enjoy.
tell me, if you need help organising that.
ciao,
liran biderman.
hey mate, very nice to hear, you and your wife loved the book.
regarding your wife's interest, i can certainly understand her, those parts of the enticing book, are really very interesting.
and if she needs the encouragement, it's all the better!
tell you what, though.
if she really wants a push, she should meet him.
i met him, at a book signing.
while standing there, i didn't know of his awful crash, actually.
but, whilst reading it, i was absolutely amazed.
i was reckoning, how could that man, stand and walk like that?
if she will see him, she would really be happy.
she would really enjoy.
tell me, if you need help organising that.
ciao,
liran biderman.
#50
William Hunt
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Posted 14 October 2001 - 07:59
Jack Brabham & Denny Hulme formed a good team
