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Different cars, same orgin

Started by Megatron , Jan 21 2002 15:16

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48 replies to this topic

#1 Megatron

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 15:16

One thing that has fasinated me is when a car is ran multiple times by different times/manufacturers. Of course, the more famous ones include the Lancai D50 that was reworked by Ferrari and the Jaguar TWR XJR 14 that was then handed over to Mazda, then reworked by Porsche.

The ones I can think of are:

(The affore mentioned)

Lancia D50 that was sent to Ferrari, reworked with the fuel being in the back rather than the sides along with new suspension.

TWR Jag that won the WSC in 1991, then was raced by Mazda in 1992 (with a Mazda engine?), then reworked by Porshe in early 1995 with the roof cut off, new aero peices, Porsche power, etc.

FIRST = Life

AGS borrowed 83 Renault tubs for thier first couple of seasons

Shawdow DN8(?) = Arrows A1

95-97 Ligier/Prosts at least close relation to the B194 and 195

Last F1 Penske = First ATS

What others are there in racing?

#2 Gary Davies

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 15:28

The Hesketh 308C became the Wolf FW05 and later, the Wolf WR-08 & 09 became Fittipaldi F7s.

#3 2F-001

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 15:44

Would the Ralt RT1 becoming a Theodore qualify for this list?

I don't know where one could draw the line between a particular celebrated chassis (or several) having an identity change - and one or more of a sizeable run of production racecars being developed into something new. (For eg: in the UK, the very fancy Gould GR37 hillclimb cars were made out of old Ralts...).

#4 Haddock

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 15:45

I think that when the XJR-14 ran as a Mazda it had a Judd V10 engine.

I seem to remember hearing that the 1988 Eurobruns were reworked Alfa Romeo 184Ts. Looking at pictures of them I'm not completely convinced but it might be true. Certainly both teams had something to do with Euroracing.

Then there were the Citroen ZX Rallye Raid cars, that were converted from the Peugeot 405T16s, which were themselves little more than stretched Peugeot 205T16s.

The Ascari sportscar is basically just a 1992 Lola under the skin.

Can't think of any more off hand.

#5 Rob G

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 16:53

The Boro was an Ensign. The McGuire and Apollon were Williamses, IIRC.

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 17:55

THe Lotus 25 became everything else.

#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 18:12

Originally posted by Roger Clark
THe Lotus 25 became everything else.

#8 Frank de Jong

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 19:38

Originally posted by Megatron

Shadow DN8(?) = Arrows A1

In fact it was the Shadow DN9, which was not quite the same car as the Arrows; in fact the cars both were designed by Tony Southgate, who moved from Shadow to Arrows, with the design in his head - or perhaps a bit more than that. The sad thing was that the copy (the Arrows) had its debut before the Shadow...

#9 ensign14

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 20:01

It was the FA1 - for Franco Ambrosino - the first 'real' Arrows was the A1 which followed

#10 Maldwyn

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 22:05

The first Arrows was the FA1. The team were forced to produce their second car, the A1, after a court case won by Shadow. By that time Franco Ambrosio had left the team therefore the 'F' was dropped from all future Arrows.

#11 karlcars

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 22:52

The Jaguar that became a Mazda and then a Porsche is certainly a good example. In fact it was not so much reworked by Porsche as reworked from a coupe to a roadster by TWR USA to suit Porsche, who was mainly concerned with the engine installation. It wasn't raced by Porsche after a late change of rules by IMSA kept it from being competitive at Daytona in 1995.

The Joest team borrowed the cars from Porsche and won Le Mans with one of them two years running in 1996 and 1997. They made a last Le Mans appearance in 1998, much modified by Porsche, but weren't very good and retired. Quite a saga.

#12 McRonalds

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Posted 21 January 2002 - 23:04

I read a story some time ago that the first Osella FA1F from 1984 was actually an Alfa Romeo 183T - to help Osella into the turbo era. But osella gtave a miss to the first event and at the second Ghinzani destoyed the chassis. It was one of the worst accidents I ever saw a driver escape nearly unhurt.

It would be interesting to compare both cars - but I think there is hardly a picture of that Osella in question.

#13 fines

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Posted 22 January 2002 - 19:13

Originally posted by McRonalds
It would be interesting to compare both cars - but I think there is hardly a picture of that Osella in question.

I have one after the crash... :lol:

Another example would be the Rondel F1, which was not raced by the team when the sponsor switched to BRM, but appeared as the Token, later as the Safir. Oh yes, and the Indy Lola T150 which became the PJ Colt and won the 500 in 1970/1 (although I believe that the actual chassis winning at Indy were replicas). Several more over there, like the Longhorn turned Primus, the Antares becoming the Manta and so on. What about the Milano becoming the Arzani-Volpini? I could go on for hours...

#14 ensign14

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Posted 22 January 2002 - 19:33

And wasn't the Longhorn a Williams?

According to Waldo on Trackforum, the Mongoose Indycar from 1967 was a Lotus 38.

#15 Frank de Jong

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Posted 23 January 2002 - 07:56

...the LDS, the South-african Brabham copy (with Brabham's blessing, IIRC).

#16 Hitch

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Posted 23 January 2002 - 08:05

I remember the Andrea Moda team had trouble at the start of the '92 season, when they were using a Coloni-chassis from '91 as Andrea Moda. I think the car's weren't allowed to start. Can anyone confirm this?

:rolleyes:

#17 Haddock

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Posted 23 January 2002 - 09:25

Completely correct.

The team then came back with a car that had started out life as a BMW design study. The car was actually built by Simtek, and thus bears at least a passing resemblance to the Simteks that eventually raced in 1994 and 1995

#18 Mohican

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 12:26

The March 751 and the Penske PC2 ?
At least they were very similar...to put it mildly.

#19 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 13:13

The Bently appears to be a reworked Audi R8C. At the same time its from the same parent company, is run by the same race team, built the same place, and uses the same engine.

#20 930fly

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 13:37

Le Mans lagonda V12 and Aston Martin DBR2?

#21 BRG

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 13:48

Originally posted by 2F-001
Would the Ralt RT1 becoming a Theodore qualify for this list?

I don't remember this - wasn't the RT1 was the original F3 car, as used by Nelson Piquet? Where do Theodore fit into this? More info please!

#22 Rob29

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 15:13

All the Ralt models were called 'RT1' in the first year.F3,F2,Atlantic,SuperVee .The prototype F1 chassis was never raced as a Ralt but bought by Theodore who gave it his name. He later did the same with Shadow and Ensign!

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 16:43

The prototype Elfin 400 was raced by Frank Matich as the Traco Oldsmobile... later the Elfin name was reattached to the car...

#24 ray b

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 17:24

:smoking:the last INDY car to win a F-1 race
lola- honda 67 monza winner!!!!!

#25 BRG

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Posted 20 February 2002 - 17:34

Originally posted by Rob29
All the Ralt models were called 'RT1' in the first year.F3,F2,Atlantic,SuperVee

Was this because they were all basically the same chassis? At that time, F2, F3 and F Atlantic cars were all pretty much interchangeable with just some wheel width differences. But Ralt definitely used model numbers later - for instance, the RT3 was the first ground effect F3 chassis and they were up to RT35 or so before Ralt were absorbed by March.

So was the prototype F1 chassis that Theodore took over closely related to the basic RT1 F2/3/A car? I seemed to remember the first Theodore F1 car was a real barge - this was the one that Rosberg drove brilliantly in the wet at Silverstone in the non-championship International Trophy, but it hopeless in the dry.

#26 rod

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Posted 21 February 2002 - 11:01

I read a story some time ago that the first Osella FA1F from 1984 was actually an Alfa Romeo 183T - to help Osella into the turbo era. But osella gtave a miss to the first event and at the second Ghinzani destoyed the chassis. It was one of the worst accidents I ever saw a driver escape nearly unhurt.

It would be interesting to compare both cars - but I think there is hardly a picture of that Osella in question.

I have one after the crash...

Where? I haven't seen a post-crash photo.

#27 Catalina Park

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Posted 21 February 2002 - 12:40

What about the Ralt RT2 Formula Two built exclusively for the Toleman Team in 1979 then the next year Toleman built its own copy which won the championship then sold the rights to Lola to build copys of the copys called the Toleman T850 then SPA got the spare Lola tubs and turned them into Rowan hillclimb cars!

#28 No27

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 19:33

I thought the first ATS was in fact a Penske of the previous year.

The Theodore and Ensign in 1982 looked strikingly familiar.

Then we had the Rebaque that started life as a Lotus 78.

#29 McRonalds

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 21:22

I think fines was talking about the same picture I have found some time ago somewhere on the net - don't know where and when.

Thank god I've made a download, so here it it, but...

Posted Image

...is that/was that an Osella?

#30 Hitch

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 07:34

Is this the Osella wrecked by Ghinzani? :confused:

I can't hardly say if this is the front or the back of the car. :drunk:

#31 MattFoster

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 08:30

The last Shadow in 1980 was developed into the 1981 Theodore from memory

#32 William Dale Jr

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Posted 26 February 2002 - 09:03

Would that be the Osella that was burnt out at the 1987 AGP?

#33 FEV

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Posted 27 February 2002 - 05:26

Would that be the Osella that was burnt out at the 1987 AGP?

I think it is the one Ghinzani almost killed himself in during warm-up for the 1984 South African Grand Prix.

#34 fines

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Posted 27 February 2002 - 15:42

Originally posted by McRonalds
I think fines was talking about the same picture I have found some time ago somewhere on the net - don't know where and when.

My pic was different, it showed the Osella - oops Alfa - oops Euroracing carried away on a trailer. I believe it was published in Motorsport aktuell back then.

#35 petefenelon

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Posted 12 September 2002 - 17:08

Originally posted by fines

My pic was different, it showed the Osella - oops Alfa - oops Euroracing carried away on a trailer. I believe it was published in Motorsport aktuell back then.

Oddly enough the Euroracing 101s that had a good season in European F3 started life as.... Marches! So Mr Pavanello's outfit have been both recipient (of Marches) and donor (to Osella) of chassis that ended up competing under a different badge

There's also the F2 Elf becoming a Kahusen.... and going from front-runner to shed.

And what about Simtek design study for BMW becoming Andrea Moda, or the guts of the Bravo team becoming Simtek, and Life buying the FIRST chassis, and Modena Team being cobbled together to run the GLAS...?

The long and complex tale of Reynard F1 IPR probably deserves an airing, too - Ligier bought it all, and when Wiggy came to the table with money for them to do the Pacific car the horse had bolted so what he got was a Benetton lookalike (for marketing reasons!) that clothed something that looked very much like a Reynard F3000 on the inside... Whether anything distinctively "Reynard" from their F1 project survived into the DAMS project I don't know!

I'd love to be able to take a very, very close look at a 95 Benetton and a 95 Ligier side by side to see how "interchangeable" they are

There's also Lola Indycar chassis turning up as Hondas, Lolas morphing seamlessly into Hills (Lola T371 -> Hill GH1), Lolas being raced as BMWs in F2, and Parnell's Lotus-bodied Lola which must've been fairly confusing!

pete

#36 petefenelon

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Posted 12 September 2002 - 17:18

Originally posted by petefenelon

The long and complex tale of Reynard F1 IPR probably deserves an airing, too - Ligier bought it all, and when Wiggy came to the table with money for them to do the Pacific car the horse had bolted so what he got was a Benetton lookalike (for marketing reasons!) that clothed something that looked very much like a Reynard F3000 on the inside... Whether anything distinctively "Reynard" from their F1 project survived into the DAMS project I don't know!

pete

...not forgetting that the nice shiny factory at Enstone was designed for Reynard so there's arguably some claim that the Benetton B192 is a legacy of the Reynard F1 proejct too!

pete

#37 pc13

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Posted 12 September 2002 - 19:53

Originally posted by Haddock
I think that when the XJR-14 ran as a Mazda it had a Judd V10 engine.

The 1992 MXR-01 did. The 1991 787B (Le Mans winner) had a Wankel quad-rotor. Might it have been an XJR-12?

Paulo C.

#38 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 12 September 2002 - 20:53

Alpine A367 -> Elf 2 -> Jabouille 2J. I wonder if these cars then became the Kauhsen's?

A Lotus 23 was very succesful in Sweden called Focus. Or was it a copy?

The Ralt RT2's, the Tolemans and the Lola T850's should be a long an good read on 8W-website!!

Stefan

#39 petefenelon

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Posted 12 September 2002 - 21:28

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Alpine A367 -> Elf 2 -> Jabouille 2J. I wonder if these cars then became the Kauhsen's?

A Lotus 23 was very succesful in Sweden called Focus. Or was it a copy?

The Ralt RT2's, the Tolemans and the Lola T850's should be a long an good read on 8W-website!!

Stefan

Ah, that was the one where Toleman licensed Lola to build copies of
"their" design, conveniently forgetting that the Toleman was a copy of
the RT2?

Didn't a subset of the Tolemans and/or Lola tubs end up as Roman-Harts
driven by Ray Rowan and friends in speed events in the UK anyway?

pete

#40 Haddock

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Posted 14 September 2002 - 19:56

The 1992 MXR-01 did. The 1991 787B (Le Mans winner) had a Wankel quad-rotor. Might it have been an XJR-12 C.

Nah, I think it was the last genuine in-house effort that Mazda built. Certainly doesn't look much like an XJR-12 anyway.

#41 Jonathan

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 08:21

Originally posted by No27
I thought the first ATS was in fact a Penske of the previous year.

Yeah. After Winning Austria in '76 Penske left the F1 world and sold their remaining Penske PC-6 Chassis to the ATS team for the '77 season. I think J-P Jarrier and Danny Onginas drove the car that season.

Also the Tyrell 009 as campained in the '79 season looked like an exact copy of the previous seasons JPS-Lotus 79 (at least from a distance).

#42 Mark Beckman

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 14:31

Originally posted by Roger Clark
THe Lotus 25 became everything else.

Jack Brabham might not share your view.

#43 Bladrian

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 14:55

Originally posted by Mark Beckman

Jack Brabham might not share your view.

He did. Even Jack had to build a monocoque chassis eventually ..... which makes me wonder. With the compression loads that carbon-fibre suspension struts are able to carry - would a carbon spaceframe be the next new thing? :smoking:

#44 Mark Beckman

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 16:23

Originally posted by Bladrian

He did. Even Jack had to build a monocoque chassis eventually ..... which makes me wonder. With the compression loads that carbon-fibre suspension struts are able to carry - would a carbon spaceframe be the next new thing?

Brabhams first monocoque was in 1971, Jack retired from racing in 1970.

I admit to not knowing when exactly Jack sold out but it stands that the cars he built and personally raced were not monocoqued and those old fashioned pipe frame specials were good enough for 2 World Drivers Championships.

Would you argue with a man who knows the physical position of a Kangaroo whilst passing urine ?

#45 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 16:53

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Brabhams first monocoque was in 1971, Jack retired from racing in 1970.

I admit to not knowing when exactly Jack sold out but it stands that the cars he built and personally raced were not monocoqued and those old fashioned pipe frame specials were good enough for 2 World Drivers Championships.

Would you argue with a man who knows the physical position of a Kangaroo whilst passing urine ?

I will... and I'll bet a number of others will...

Do you have Racing Car News March 1969?

If so, turn to page 58, and then look at the last paragraph in the first column, right under the sub-heading 'F1 Prospects'...

"In South Africa the Formula 1 Brabhams will be based on last year's BT26s, but new monocoque chassis are being built and should be ready by May. Ron Tauranac is looking into the possibilities of four wheel drive but is not yet convinced of its necessity in Formula One"

I have long held that the 1969 Brabhams were among the very best looking F1 cars ever... Jack's first monos.

#46 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 17:10

THe first Formula 1 monocoque Brabham was the BT33 of 1970, which Jack raced. The BT26 was raced in 1968 with Repco engines and 1969 with Cosworth engines. They had a space frame with sheet metal welded to the frame to stiffen it. A sort of halfcoque, I suppose.

THere had been a monocoque Brabham at Indianapolis even earlier.

#47 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 17:22

So this time I should have trusted my memory?

I went to the magazine just to be sure... you're right, Roger, the BT33 was the one that I felt was the best looking. Anyway, Jack drove it, which was the point of correction for Mark.

#48 Bladrian

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Posted 15 September 2002 - 18:12

Originally posted by Roger Clark
THe first Formula 1 monocoque Brabham was the BT33 of 1970, which Jack raced. The BT26 was raced in 1968 with Repco engines and 1969 with Cosworth engines. They had a space frame with sheet metal welded to the frame to stiffen it. A sort of halfcoque, I suppose.

THere had been a monocoque Brabham at Indianapolis even earlier.

I guess Mark went off halfcoqued, then ...... :rotfl: