I've been reading through a bit of stuff about different drivers from the '50s and '60s who performed well in sports cars or lower formulae but never got a ride in F1. For me, a favorite or two would include the late Ken Miles. I would have also enjoyed good ol' A. J. Foyt (discussed in another thread) in F1. Archie Scott-Brown deserved a shot, too . . .
So . . .
Who would YOU have liked to have seen in an F1 car??
Bobbo
"You can have freedom and you can have security. Unfortunately, rarely at the same time."
---Robert Anson Heinlein 20th century Ccience Fiction writer and neopessimist philosopher
Who would you have liked to see in F1?
Started by
bobbo
, Apr 05 2002 23:04
123 replies to this topic
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#2
bobbo
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Posted 05 April 2002 - 23:08
OOPS Archie DID get one F1 shot, Great Britain in 1956 in a Connaught-Alta.
Foot in mouth again . . . .
Bobbo
#3
LittleChris
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Posted 05 April 2002 - 23:14
Bobbo,
I think this has come up before. But :
Kelvin Burt
Chris
I think this has come up before. But :
Kelvin Burt
Chris
#4
Don Capps
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 04:15
Curtis Turner in a good GP team would have been pretty interesting -- at least they would never have lost a party with Curtis around....
Junior Johnson is another, along with A.J. Foyt who wound have been darn good in GP racing.
Of the "modern" crew -- Dale Earnhardt, Alan Kulwicki, Jeff Gordon, and Tony Stewart....
Junior Johnson is another, along with A.J. Foyt who wound have been darn good in GP racing.
Of the "modern" crew -- Dale Earnhardt, Alan Kulwicki, Jeff Gordon, and Tony Stewart....
#6
Bernd
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 05:36
Walter Rohrl. I think he would have been superlative.
#7
Pikachu Racing
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 06:03
Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jerry Nadeau, Ron Fellows, Tim Richmond, Ross Stonefield
#8
ensign14
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 06:34
Agree about Ken Miles. Also, Andy Wallace, Jorg Muller and Don Parker. Maurizio Flammini probably deserved a shot as well, and Geoff Lees certainly deserved a full time drive.
#10
John Schoen
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 07:10
Henri Toivonen. He did two laps of the Estoril circuit during a stage of the 1986 Portugese rally in his Delta S4. The fastest would have qualified him sixth for the F1 grand prix. Very different cars of course, so I would have liked to see what he would have been capable of in a Formula 1 car.
#11
Milan Fistonic
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 07:45
Originally posted by John Schoen
Henri Toivonen. He did two laps of the Estoril circuit during a stage of the 1986 Portugese rally in his Delta S4. The fastest would have qualified him sixth for the F1 grand prix. Very different cars of course, so I would have liked to see what he would have been capable of in a Formula 1 car.
This claim has come up before but nobody has been able to provide proof that it actually happened. It certainly did not happen in the 1986 Portuguese Rally as the top crews only did three stages before withdrawing from the event following the accident in which thrre spectators were killed. None of those three stages was around the Estoril circuit though the pit lane at Estoril was used as the parc ferme. Possibly there was an unofficial run around the track but I've not seen any evidence.
#12
fines
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 09:25
Originally posted by John Schoen
Henri Toivonen. He did two laps of the Estoril circuit during a stage of the 1986 Portugese rally in his Delta S4. The fastest would have qualified him sixth for the F1 grand prix.
Yeah, sure...
#13
Rediscoveryx
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 10:45
I'd cast my vote on Toivonen as well. He was just amazing.
I'm not really sure about that Estoril thing, I've heard that he would have qualified 14th
There's also been some talk about Toivonen competing in a F3 race, finishing second to Senna, but the source on that one is "some guy on a forum". In other words; unreliable.
Still, Toivonen was amazing even without these stories.
I'm not really sure about that Estoril thing, I've heard that he would have qualified 14th
There's also been some talk about Toivonen competing in a F3 race, finishing second to Senna, but the source on that one is "some guy on a forum". In other words; unreliable.
Still, Toivonen was amazing even without these stories.
#14
Redliner
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 11:43
Hmmm interesting thread this one. Out of the current crop i would love to see Dario Franchitti get his chance in F1, even if he has had a few ropey CART seasons I think he has massive potential. Closely linked to Franchitti is Greg Moore, a great driver, a wasted talent and could easily have been another Canadian World Champion. Didn't Colin Mc Rae test a Jordan? Probably more publicity than anything but still, would have been interesting. If Foyt had raced F1 we would be able to clear all the arguments about him up! 
The list is really endless. Many people have deserved a shot but not got it. I always think Tom Sneva would have done well in F1. My dad always used to rave about Richard Dallest.
Oh and of course who can ignore Frank Matich?
The list is really endless. Many people have deserved a shot but not got it. I always think Tom Sneva would have done well in F1. My dad always used to rave about Richard Dallest.
Oh and of course who can ignore Frank Matich?
#15
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 12:12
Originally posted by Redliner
Oh and of course who can ignore Frank Matich?
Precisely... who could ignore Frank...
He ran with the foxes and hunted with the hounds during those Tasman races of the 64 and 65 seasons... had a very real race with Jim Clark at Lakeside... I think he actually led about four races in the two seasons.
#16
RDV
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 12:15
....race properly ( he only did one race at fuji in 76 ) Kazuioshi Hoshino....... he still races in GTs at 52 and only gave up f nippon in 00 the previous years
He raced against Villeneuve , Irvine and de la Rosa, and beat them , this at the time f nippons used to use qualifying tyres , his pole at Suzuka in 97 or 98 was enough for the third row in that years GP...he was @ 47 at the time
Rohrl , yessssss , was driven around Donington special stage in the fiat quite some years ago ,I seeing him drive would venture to say that many of the top level rally drivers would not disgrace themselves
He raced against Villeneuve , Irvine and de la Rosa, and beat them , this at the time f nippons used to use qualifying tyres , his pole at Suzuka in 97 or 98 was enough for the third row in that years GP...he was @ 47 at the time
Rohrl , yessssss , was driven around Donington special stage in the fiat quite some years ago ,I seeing him drive would venture to say that many of the top level rally drivers would not disgrace themselves
#17
F1master
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 12:22
Originally posted by Bernd
Walter Rohrl. I think he would have been superlative.
agree
#19
fines
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 13:25
Well, maybe, because he retired in 1996 and in his mind he would've broken all the records thereafter...Originally posted by RDV
Kazuioshi Hoshino....... He raced against Villeneuve , Irvine and de la Rosa, and beat them , this at the time f nippons used to use qualifying tyres , his pole at Suzuka in 97 or 98 was enough for the third row in that years GP...he was @ 47 at the time
Let's see: I have his fastest qualifying lap at Suzuka at 1'42.330" (Nov 18 or 19, 1995). Three weeks earlier, Gerhard Berger (1'39.040") and David Coulthard (1'39.155") started from the third row of the Japanese GP. Hmmm, that's more than three seconds adrift, and the F1 boys were nowhere near their records from the previous years - so that's rubbish! Also, he's born in 1947, and by my arithmetics he was 48 already in 1995... And tell me, when did he race against Villeneuve, apart from the one race in 1977? There, I can affirm you, Gilles ran ahead of him all the time he was able to keep at least one wheel on the ground...
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#20
Geza Sury
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 13:25
I certainly agree that Jörg Müller should have given a seat in F1. Just like Tom Kristensen! They have won major championships, the F3000 title and the German F3 crown respectively. Both of them carried out extensive tests for Williams.
What about Jean Pierre Jassaud? He finished runner-up once in F2, so he wasn't that bad either!
What about Jean Pierre Jassaud? He finished runner-up once in F2, so he wasn't that bad either!
#21
Psychoman
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 14:00
And tell me, when did he race against Villeneuve, apart from the one race in 1977?
I'm not sure, but perhaps he's referring to Jacques--he did some F-Nippon races I think...
#22
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 14:11
Is it mainly who should be in F1 but didnt, or who we would like to see on personal preference? As an example I dont think Stewart would cut mustard. He wasnt exactly mind blowing, at least to me, in the IRL and his european co-drivers werent impressed when he did the Rolex 24.
btw there's no I in Stonefeld ;) How the heck do Nick Heidfeld and Mario Haberfeld get away with it
btw there's no I in Stonefeld ;) How the heck do Nick Heidfeld and Mario Haberfeld get away with it
#23
xjohnnyjaguarx
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 16:04
they are a lot of people who should got a proper stab at F1 ,but one who springs to mind is
markus hottinger a young austrian who sadly died at a F2 race in hockenheim before he could
prove himself!!!
and what about paul tracy and all three of the unsers ??
markus hottinger a young austrian who sadly died at a F2 race in hockenheim before he could
prove himself!!!
and what about paul tracy and all three of the unsers ??
#24
fines
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 18:09
Jacques never drove in FNippon, he tested (at least once) an F3000 in Japan, that's all.Originally posted by Psychoman
I'm not sure, but perhaps he's referring to Jacques--he did some F-Nippon races I think...
He didn't mean you, he meant the famous racing driver, Ross Stonefield, afair a contemporary of Freddie "The Racer" Flintstone!Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
btw there's no I in Stonefeld How the heck do Nick Heidfeld and Mario Haberfeld get away with it
Three? THREE? Our last count ended at eight or nine, iirc!Originally posted by xjohnnyjaguarx
... all three of the unsers
#25
Barry Boor
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 18:49
Referring back to bobbo's early post:
A lot more than that, actually, bobbo.
Just a few examples, not incuding races where he might have been a front runner but retired:
Brands Hatch 26th December 1955 F1 race - 1st + fastest lap
Silverstone 5th May 1956 - International Trophy Race - 2nd
Snetterton 22nd July 1956 - Vanwall Trophy Race - new absolute circuit lap record
Brands Hatch 14th October 1956 - F1 race - 1st + new absolute circuit lap record
Aintree 19th April 1958 - F1 race - 4th
These were all achieved in a Connaught, admittedly sometimes against weak opposition, but sometimes there were Maseratis around....
Archie DID get one F1 shot, Great Britain in 1956 in a Connaught-Alta.
A lot more than that, actually, bobbo.
Just a few examples, not incuding races where he might have been a front runner but retired:
Brands Hatch 26th December 1955 F1 race - 1st + fastest lap
Silverstone 5th May 1956 - International Trophy Race - 2nd
Snetterton 22nd July 1956 - Vanwall Trophy Race - new absolute circuit lap record
Brands Hatch 14th October 1956 - F1 race - 1st + new absolute circuit lap record
Aintree 19th April 1958 - F1 race - 4th
These were all achieved in a Connaught, admittedly sometimes against weak opposition, but sometimes there were Maseratis around....
#26
fines
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 18:58
... and sometimes even Stirling Moss!
#27
bobbo
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 21:31
. . .Actually, I was referring to Archie's one (listed in FORIX) WC start.
Bobbo
Bobbo
#28
Barry Boor
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 21:35
Sorry, bobbo, I appreciate that..... it's just that your thread title says F1 not Grand Prix racing.
#29
Don Capps
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 21:39
Originally posted by Barry Boor
Sorry, bobbo, I appreciate that..... it's just that your thread title says F1 not Grand Prix racing.
Actually, despite an attack of the Hawkeye Pierce Syndrone, I think that will bite my tongue on that one and not say anything....
#30
paparadiation
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 21:43
One name that springs in mind is that of Rick Mears. He even had a positive test for Brabham but Ecclestone wanted him to pay for his drive IIRC. 
Another one is one of my favorite sportscar drivers, Bob Wollek. Don't know how well he could have fared in F1 but I wonder why he didn't ever had the chance, or did he?
Another one is one of my favorite sportscar drivers, Bob Wollek. Don't know how well he could have fared in F1 but I wonder why he didn't ever had the chance, or did he?
#31
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 23:59
Originally posted by Don Capps
Actually, despite an attack of the Hawkeye Pierce Syndrome, I think that will bite my tongue on that one and not say anything....
Hawkeye Pierce Syndrome? Sorry, don't follow that (wasn't it 'Pearce'?)
Those outright records for Archie speak volumes too.. even if the circuits weren't often used for F1 cars
#32
Don Capps
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 01:10
The Hawkeye Pearce Syndrone: 1. the need to have the last word in a discussion; 2. the urge to correct information as presented which is believed to be either incorrect, out of context or differs from an established definition....
Ray: as you see, you were correct, fingers were faster than brain -- as usual....
Ray: as you see, you were correct, fingers were faster than brain -- as usual....
#33
David M. Kane
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 03:13
Graham McRae and Bill Vukovich...
#34
RDV
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 04:47
Hmmm, that's more than three seconds adrift
.....we quibble surely? three seconds in a F Nippon to a F1 is impressive enough at 48 ...as to Villeneuve (Jacques.)I think you are right ,I think only F3 in Japan , fingers faster than brain.... thats the nice thing about this forum, you do have the data.. will stick to cars and not venture into drivers minefield.... buuuuuuut I thought this thread was called "Who would you have LIKED to see in F1?" , if we go by that I can nominate the Pope , without having to quote laptimes..
lighten up. Correct data by all means ( Accuracy is all in history) but no need to be overly agressive.
#35
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 06:02
Originally posted by David M. Kane
Graham McRae and Bill Vukovich...
McRae?
That's the one Matich passed round the outside going into Paddock Bend in the 73 Tasman, isn't it? More votes for Matich, please, gentlemen?
#36
Jim Thurman
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 06:34
Anyone but Tony Stewart or Jeff Gordon...I mean literally. I'd even pick my neighbor first 
Personally, I would have preferred them to have been stuck at local track level (mainly because of their *handlers*. It's a great scam that's been forced down unwitting race fans throats).
Jim Thurman
Personally, I would have preferred them to have been stuck at local track level (mainly because of their *handlers*. It's a great scam that's been forced down unwitting race fans throats).
Jim Thurman
#37
RDV
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 06:39
level (mainly because of their *handlers*. It's a great scam that's been forced down unwitting race fans throats).
I always thought Nascar has a great deal of similarity to F1.....
#38
Jim Thurman
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 06:46
Originally posted by RDV
I always thought Nascar has a great deal of similarity to F1.....
...seriously though, at least F1 is honest about it's underhanded tactics Does anyone have any cases of a driver being pushed up the ladder all the way to F1 via a TV network? And what if same TV network had personell who were the *managers* of these drivers?
That's what happened...and it's the tip of the iceberg. One must be sure to lie and manipulate every phase and every facet to insure the success of the mission.
Like I typed above, at least F1 is straightforward about it's money grubbing and greed
Jim Thurman
#39
ensign14
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 07:12
McRae had a very short F1 career - British Grand Prix 1973, basically 2 laps of the aborted race and a few yards at the restart. Didn't seem to pull up any trees a la Brise or Schumi M. However, he didn't exactly have a lot of time in which to demonstrate his talent...
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#40
Bernd
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 08:51
I've got to go into bat for Ray here in regards to Frank Matich. He was bloody quick yet consistant and versatile to boot. Anyone who Jimmy Clark noted as one of the best he ever saw has got to be pretty damn good.
#41
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 09:32
Having only a recent memory I can only proffer a few who I think would've done very well in F1:
Gonzalo Rodriguez & Jason Watt (had death & injury not convened)
&
Justin Wilson, Laurent Aiello, Cristiano di Matta, Gil de Ferran, Juan Manuel Fangio II (for sheer effect, Fangio leads Mansell!), Tom Kristensen, Jorg Muller, John Nielsen (good drivers, but wrong place at the critical time)
I also hope Freisacher & Bourdais get a chance in the future...
On another note, Rick Mears would've been interesting too.
Gonzalo Rodriguez & Jason Watt (had death & injury not convened)
&
Justin Wilson, Laurent Aiello, Cristiano di Matta, Gil de Ferran, Juan Manuel Fangio II (for sheer effect, Fangio leads Mansell!), Tom Kristensen, Jorg Muller, John Nielsen (good drivers, but wrong place at the critical time)
I also hope Freisacher & Bourdais get a chance in the future...
On another note, Rick Mears would've been interesting too.
#42
xjohnnyjaguarx
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 09:48
[
Another one is one of my favorite sportscar drivers, Bob Wollek. Don't know how well he could have fared in F1 but I wonder why he didn't ever had the chance, or did he? [/B][/QUOTE]
well i heard once but dont know it is true or not that he was to sign as a thirth driver for
BRM in 1974 alongside pescarolo and beltoise but the deal didnt go through and they
went with one francois migault instead .
Another one is one of my favorite sportscar drivers, Bob Wollek. Don't know how well he could have fared in F1 but I wonder why he didn't ever had the chance, or did he? [/B][/QUOTE]
well i heard once but dont know it is true or not that he was to sign as a thirth driver for
BRM in 1974 alongside pescarolo and beltoise but the deal didnt go through and they
went with one francois migault instead .
#43
Frank de Jong
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 10:09
Yep, and let's include Hans-Georg Bürger with that.Originally posted by xjohnnyjaguarx
they are a lot of people who should got a proper stab at F1 ,but one who springs to mind is
markus hottinger a young austrian who sadly died at a F2 race in hockenheim before he could
prove himself!!!
From my own country: F3 drivers Marcel Albers and John Bosch - the last one had to move to rallying because of an F3 acident.
#44
AlesiUK
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 19:34
Paulo Carcassci deserved a chance,he was an excellent driver.
Michele Ferti-Great sportscar driver and was not bad in single seaters either,i had a notion he had raced in f1,but i cant find a record of it.
Marku Allen-maximum madness!!
Of current drivers Gilles Panizzi-the fastest driver on tarmac,why does no one give him a single seater?
Michele Ferti-Great sportscar driver and was not bad in single seaters either,i had a notion he had raced in f1,but i cant find a record of it.
Marku Allen-maximum madness!!
Of current drivers Gilles Panizzi-the fastest driver on tarmac,why does no one give him a single seater?
#45
Barry Boor
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 20:35
and they went with one Francois Migault instead.
A very underrated driver!!!!
#46
MaTT2799
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 21:34
2 or 3 spring to mind;
Greg Moore. As Redliner said, he could have become another Canadian champ. There was talk IIRC in 96 that he was contacted by McLaren, but turned down the chance of a test drive as his dream was to drive for Penske and win in America.
Paul Warwick. This guy was going to be at least as good as his brother I am sure. He was absoloutely dominating the British F3000 championship in 1990 until his tragic death.
Marco Campos. I think Marco had the one of the biggest potentials around. In his first season of F3000, in a Lola, which was not up to the Reynards of the year (95) he put in some very convincing performances. I am sure he would have been a winner in F1. Of course, fate dictated otherwise and he became another sad loss to motorsport.
Greg Moore. As Redliner said, he could have become another Canadian champ. There was talk IIRC in 96 that he was contacted by McLaren, but turned down the chance of a test drive as his dream was to drive for Penske and win in America.
Paul Warwick. This guy was going to be at least as good as his brother I am sure. He was absoloutely dominating the British F3000 championship in 1990 until his tragic death.
Marco Campos. I think Marco had the one of the biggest potentials around. In his first season of F3000, in a Lola, which was not up to the Reynards of the year (95) he put in some very convincing performances. I am sure he would have been a winner in F1. Of course, fate dictated otherwise and he became another sad loss to motorsport.
#47
Hurricane
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 21:51
I also would have liked to have seen Greg Moore race in F1. He would have certainly had the offer after seeing what Penske's did in 2000 and since then. However, like his idol Senna, they shared the same fate.
Speaking of Canadians, I would also have liked to have seen Paul Tracy drive in F1. He was offered a testing contract of some sort with Benetton in 96' but was not promised a chance for a drive. His never say never attitude and also his rebel style could have made him a superstar had he made it to F1. He certainly would have had to trim a few pounds though. Someone told me he has lost 20 lbs over the winter break. Can anyone confirm this?
Speaking of Canadians, I would also have liked to have seen Paul Tracy drive in F1. He was offered a testing contract of some sort with Benetton in 96' but was not promised a chance for a drive. His never say never attitude and also his rebel style could have made him a superstar had he made it to F1. He certainly would have had to trim a few pounds though. Someone told me he has lost 20 lbs over the winter break. Can anyone confirm this?
#48
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 22:00
Paul Tracy isnt so much a rebel as he is someone having a midlife crisis
#49
Hurricane
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 22:25
If I could have has "mid-life" crisis when the time arrives, I would gladly take it. Driving the fastest racing cars on earth. Ah, that sucks doesn't it? So does making a couple of million every year!
#50
rdrcr
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 00:40
If I could have has "mid-life" crisis when the time arrives, I would gladly take it. Driving the fastest racing cars on earth. Ah, that sucks doesn't it? So does making a couple of million every year!
I'm sure all of the 40 somethings in NASCAR feel the same way...
And Al Unser Jr. and Michael Andretti, and most of the ex-F1 guys running GTC and endurance events.. and, and, and ...
Back on topic....
I would like to see any of the top WRC guys have a go at F1, Panizzi has been mentioned, McRae's no slouch on asphalt and so is Gronholm.
In sports cars, I think that Ron Fellows always put up a good fight and was very quick. There are others, but I think because of their size they wouldn't stand much of a chance.
From CART, I think that Christian de Matta would be a good fit in an F1 car and so would Tracy (but he might be too big) and Dario, perhaps we'll get to see one or the other make a bit eventually. I'd go along with Moore too and perhaps Vasser, in his heyday was very quick.
From NASCAR, there really isn't to many that impress on a road course other than J. Gordon, R. Rudd, M. Martin, and T. Stewart. They all would put up a pretty good fight IMO.
