Why only Germany?

Originally posted by dmj
generally it seems that no one in the world has bad oppinion on Dannish people...

I know it isn't funny but it amused me to see how times are changing...

It's been fascinating re-reading this thread.

Was it the case that the degree of, shall we say, sanction against German drivers was different from that against (manufacturer's) teams?

Originally posted by D-Type
Was it the case that the degree of, shall we say, sanction against German drivers was different from that against (manufacturer's) teams?

Duncan, I don't think so. From the french literatur of the time I have the ban applied:
-to German manufacturers: if they wanted to do official entries, they couldn't.
-to German licensed drivers.

It was let to organizer's appreciation to admit or not german cars entered by non-german drivers. It was a wise decision as in the "voiturettes" races mainly opened to 2000cc u/s and 1100 cc s/c cars you could find a lot of 328 BMWs which were taken in Germany as war's damages compensation. To avoid problems, in France a lot of them became officially Frazer-Nashes!

To describe the atmosphere of the time, two facts:
-1946 Nice GP: the Scuderia Milan entered cars. Though there was no ban on italians teams or drivers they were not very welcomed by the crowd. Why? Italy in 1940 declared war to France, bombed France and their troops occupied the Nice district. The facists even wanted to annex this french district to Italy.
-1947 Strasbourg GP. Eugène Chaboud, who was to become French champion that year, entered a mysterious 2000cc car known in entry lists as X or the LC. In fact it was the first RS Veritas which arrived straight from the works to Strasbourg in a french army's lorry! I don't know what was the colour of the car, blue, white or silver but what is certain is that facing crowd's reactions and maybe other competitors, Chaboud turned only during the first practice session and then continue with his old faithful Delahaye!

It's also worth examining the races which took place in the Saar in 1949, not to mention the sanctions against the French driver who raced in Germany that year ....;)

Politics, politique, Politik ....

Altogether I can see the following three possible explanations for "why only Germany":

1. the crimes, that were committed - obviously excluding starting the war itself, for otherwise this should have affected Italy, too - plus also neglecting the participation of Austrians in the Nazi regime

2. Germany was the only remaining "looser" of the war - Italy had swapped sides in 1943, joined the Allies and declared war on Germany (to my knowledge), while Austria simply did not exist, so it could not be regarded as a participating state in the war.

3. there was nothing like a "Germany" in the years after 1945. Italy had persisted as an independent country and Austria was resurrected at least with a nation-wide self government, even this was under Allied control. In contrast in Germany the political structures had to be built up bottom-up again completely, which happened quite differently in the four occupation zones accordingly to the contrary political aims of the concurring Allied governments. So the already existing economical chaos was increased by a political chaos, which left some niches for more or less self-organised motorsport, but prevented any chance of building up proper organization structures.

But I think we must distinguish between the time up to about 1948 and the situation of 1949. In this first period to me it seems, that the first factor was the most decisive, at least regarding the French-German relationship, as the happenings at Strasbourg in 1947 or the "Frazernash-sation" of so many BMW indicate. On the other hand there seem to have been much lesser resentiments in Switzerland, where there was felt a much lesser need for such disguise. Also interesting to see, that in fact the first foreigner to participate in races on German soil was an officer of the French military government in Germany, Albert Farré, who started at Karlsruhe as early as September 1946! If he would have ran into trouble because of this I would think he would not have repeated this at Hockenheim and Schotten in 1947...

After 1948 it seems to have been a different story and now I think the third reason turned more and more into the problem. With the foundation of the "FRG" in the three Western zones did not mean immediate membership in the FIA, not so much beacause of lasting ressentiments, but mainly because the many motoring and motor-racing organizations had to sort themselves out first. The FIA had welcomed Germany membership already earlier that year, but the problem was which German club to acknowledge as full member (the AvD, the ADAC, the DMV, the OMK plus the East Germans...). So until this matter was not settled any event carried out by one of these clubs was legally a "wild event", and I think that was the reason for the sanctions on Roger Loyer for his participation in the Nürburgring GP in 1949. On the other hand Hermann Roosdorp did not have to face similar treatment by the Belgian club.

As this is a very interesting discussion I have put up a list of all foreign starters in German events in the years 1946 to 1949 I know of, which means excluding Formula 3 / midget racing and the minor sports car classes:

29.09.1946 Karlsruhe					 Albert Farré			 F	 (member of French occupation forces) 

11.05.1947 Hockenheim					Albert Farré			 F

22.06.1947 Schotten					  Albert Farré			 F

										 Norbert Eberle		   CH	(but German-resident)

31.08.1947 Hamburg					   "Victor Alexander"	   ?	 (hidden idendity for perhaps Alexander Orley?)

20.06.1948 Schotten (race cancelled)	 Norbert Eberle		   CH

15.08.1948 Schotten					  Albert Farré			 F

19.09.1948 Grenzlandring				 "Philippe Armand"		F	 (unknown identity)

08.05.1949 Hockenheim					"Philippe Armand"		F

07.08.1949 Nürburgring				   Hermann Roosdorp		 B

										 Roger Loyer			  F

										 Eugene Martin			F	 (dna)

										 "Robert"				 F	 (dna)

11.09.1949 Grenzlandring				 Hermann Roosdorp		 B

										 Anni Roosdorp			B

										 "Armand Philippe"		F

25.09.1949 Nürnberg					  Matthias Rühl			F	 (dna)

02.10.1949 Köln						  Hermann Roosdorp		 B

14.05.1950 Hockenheim					"Armand Philippe"		F



plus



18.09.1949 Saarbrücken				   Eugene Martin			F

										 Harry Schell			 USA/F

										 Auguste Veuillet		 F

										 "Armand Philippe"		F

										 Roger Loyer			  F

										 Primo Bizarri			?

After that the firts true international event on German soil was the Schauinsland hillclimb on 6.8.1950 with participation of Scuderia Milan plus strong Swiss and Bristish detachments.

For the German drivers the situation seems to have been handled more strictly, as besides Caracciola and Stuck I have not found any participations in a foreign event before Ulmen and Rieß appeared at Erlen on 7.5.1950. Writing this, the question arises to me, why Stuck did not face any problems with his starts inside and outside Germany in 1947-1949. Would not driving under Austrian license technically have made him a "foreigner" in the German events, too?

Finally, as this seems to have been a matter in the immediate post-war years, also a list of German cars (only to those built after the war) being entered in foreign events:

BMW "1947" (by Falkenhausen)					   driven by Norbert Eberle at Berne 1947

"Todd Speciale" (disguised German-built special)  driven by Alexander Orley and Harry Schell 1947/48 in various French events 

Veritas (disguised)							   practised by Eugene Chaboud at Strasbourg 1947, excluded

Veritas (disguised)							   driven by Hermann Trümpy at Dornach-Gempen hillclimb, Switzerland 1947

Veritas (disguised as METEOR?)					driven by Eugene Chaboud and Roger Loyer at Reims and St. Gaudens 1948, also entered for Angouleme

AFM 1947										  campaigned by Peter Hirt in Swiss events during 1948/49

Veritas										   driven by Claes / Cornet and Loyer / Chardonnet at the Paris 12 h 1948

Maybe it is of interest that in autumn 1947, after the German season had ended, a group of German motorcycle racers (among them well-known names like Heiner Fleischmann, Karl Bodmer, Roland Schnell, Bruno Ziemer et. al.), was invited to do some races in Austria and Liechtenstein.

One of the most impressive racing-related photographs I have ever seen is somehow linked with the discussed topic. It was taken at the city of Reims on that memorable weekend in July 1954 (ten years since la libération) prior to the Grand Prix de l'ACF. This is exactly the case when one picture says more than thousand words. Just look at the faces in the crowd surrounding the new German racing weapon, codename W 196. They reflect not only admiration and curiosity...


Source: ''50 Jahre Formel 1'' book by Eberhard Reuß
Copyright: unknown
Picture posted on a principle of fair use and will be removed on request.

Scanning the list of members in the BRDC Silver Jubilee Book (published in 1952) I was struck by the total absence of Germans.

Foreign drivers had always been eligible for honorary membership, while team managers and so on were eligible for associate membership.

Given the various exploits of Germans at Ards, Phoenix Park, Donington Park and Shelsley Walsh in the inter-war period, one might expect that at least one or two out of Caracciola, Lang, Stuck, Neubauer or Uhlenhaut would feature even in post-1945 lists. The Honorary Members include eleven Italians, headed of course by Nuvolari and Lurani (who had worn the club's badge at least as early as 1933 when he co-drove with Eyston in the Mille Miglia). There were also sixteen French drivers - including Mme Rouault, who thus qualified as an Honorary Member on two counts! That total includes Amedée Gordini, who could be defined as Italian, but not Chiron, who was technically Monégasque. So - give or take - sixteen or so French.

So - can anyone come up with a pre-War list? I've never seen one, but Caracciola was certainly feted on his few visits to Britain. Rosemeyer would surely have been a shoo-in too ....

Originally posted by uechtel
Altogether I can see the following three possible explanations for "why only Germany":

1. the crimes, that were committed - obviously excluding starting the war itself, for otherwise this should have affected Italy, too - plus also neglecting the participation of Austrians in the Nazi regime

2. Germany was the only remaining "looser" of the war - Italy had swapped sides in 1943, joined the Allies and declared war on Germany (to my knowledge), while Austria simply did not exist, so it could not be regarded as a participating state in the war.

3. there was nothing like a "Germany" in the years after 1945. Italy had persisted as an independent country and Austria was resurrected at least with a nation-wide self government, even this was under Allied control. In contrast in Germany the political structures had to be built up bottom-up again completely, which happened quite differently in the four occupation zones accordingly to the contrary political aims of the concurring Allied governments. So the already existing economical chaos was increased by a political chaos, which left some niches for more or less self-organised motorsport, but prevented any chance of building up proper organization structures.

But I think we must distinguish between the time up to about 1948 and the situation of 1949. In this first period to me it seems, that the first factor was the most decisive, at least regarding the French-German relationship, as the happenings at Strasbourg in 1947 or the "Frazernash-sation" of so many BMW indicate. On the other hand there seem to have been much lesser resentiments in Switzerland, where there was felt a much lesser need for such disguise. Also interesting to see, that in fact the first foreigner to participate in races on German soil was an officer of the French military government in Germany, Albert Farré, who started at Karlsruhe as early as September 1946! If he would have ran into trouble because of this I would think he would not have repeated this at Hockenheim and Schotten in 1947...

After 1948 it seems to have been a different story and now I think the third reason turned more and more into the problem. With the foundation of the "FRG" in the three Western zones did not mean immediate membership in the FIA, not so much beacause of lasting ressentiments, but mainly because the many motoring and motor-racing organizations had to sort themselves out first. The FIA had welcomed Germany membership already earlier that year, but the problem was which German club to acknowledge as full member (the AvD, the ADAC, the DMV, the OMK plus the East Germans...). So until this matter was not settled any event carried out by one of these clubs was legally a "wild event", and I think that was the reason for the sanctions on Roger Loyer for his participation in the Nürburgring GP in 1949. On the other hand Hermann Roosdorp did not have to face similar treatment by the Belgian club.

As this is a very interesting discussion I have put up a list of all foreign starters in German events in the years 1946 to 1949 I know of, which means excluding Formula 3 / midget racing and the minor sports car classes:

29.09.1946 Karlsruhe					 Albert Farré			 F	 (member of French occupation forces) 

11.05.1947 Hockenheim					Albert Farré			 F

22.06.1947 Schotten					  Albert Farré			 F

										 Norbert Eberle		   CH	(but German-resident)

31.08.1947 Hamburg					   "Victor Alexander"	   ?	 (hidden idendity for perhaps Alexander Orley?)

20.06.1948 Schotten (race cancelled)	 Norbert Eberle		   CH

15.08.1948 Schotten					  Albert Farré			 F

19.09.1948 Grenzlandring				 "Philippe Armand"		F	 (unknown identity)

08.05.1949 Hockenheim					"Philippe Armand"		F

07.08.1949 Nürburgring				   Hermann Roosdorp		 B

										 Roger Loyer			  F

										 Eugene Martin			F	 (dna)

										 "Robert"				 F	 (dna)

11.09.1949 Grenzlandring				 Hermann Roosdorp		 B

										 Anni Roosdorp			B

										 "Armand Philippe"		F

25.09.1949 Nürnberg					  Matthias Rühl			F	 (dna)

02.10.1949 Köln						  Hermann Roosdorp		 B

14.05.1950 Hockenheim					"Armand Philippe"		F



plus



18.09.1949 Saarbrücken				   Eugene Martin			F

										 Harry Schell			 USA/F

										 Auguste Veuillet		 F

										 "Armand Philippe"		F

										 Roger Loyer			  F

										 Primo Bizarri			?

After that the firts true international event on German soil was the Schauinsland hillclimb on 6.8.1950 with participation of Scuderia Milan plus strong Swiss and Bristish detachments.

For the German drivers the situation seems to have been handled more strictly, as besides Caracciola and Stuck I have not found any participations in a foreign event before Ulmen and Rieß appeared at Erlen on 7.5.1950. Writing this, the question arises to me, why Stuck did not face any problems with his starts inside and outside Germany in 1947-1949. Would not driving under Austrian license technically have made him a "foreigner" in the German events, too?

Finally, as this seems to have been a matter in the immediate post-war years, also a list of German cars (only to those built after the war) being entered in foreign events:

BMW "1947" (by Falkenhausen)					   driven by Norbert Eberle at Berne 1947

"Todd Speciale" (disguised German-built special)  driven by Alexander Orley and Harry Schell 1947/48 in various French events 

Veritas (disguised)							   practised by Eugene Chaboud at Strasbourg 1947, excluded

Veritas (disguised)							   driven by Hermann Trümpy at Dornach-Gempen hillclimb, Switzerland 1947

Veritas (disguised as METEOR?)					driven by Eugene Chaboud and Roger Loyer at Reims and St. Gaudens 1948, also entered for Angouleme

AFM 1947										  campaigned by Peter Hirt in Swiss events during 1948/49

Veritas										   driven by Claes / Cornet and Loyer / Chardonnet at the Paris 12 h 1948

It seems that everyone has forgotten what the jJapanese did starting in the mid 30's in China and through WW 2

From the thread Please help me with my father's photo archive

19.09.1948 Grenzlandring "Philippe Armand" F (unknown identity)

An explanation of the identity

Originally posted by bidochon
some pictures of the French driver Philippe in reality : Armand Kotja , he work for French secret service , for a nebulous job !!! for these pictures my brother say : pictures taken in Deutschland palatinat in 1949 outside a house which was used like arm warehouse , we have been take here ( why ? ) by a israel colonel called Bec..ell who was found assasinate later !!! what are incredible time , sometime curious meeting in racing cars is' nt ?

18.09.1949 Saarbrücken "Armand Philippe" F

Pictures from Saarbruken

Originally posted by bidochon
three other pictures from my father's archives , the driver : Armand Philippe , the car was certainly a véritas but where ? year ?

Originally posted by bidochon

Originally posted by bidochon

Was there some sort of racing ban on Japan, after WWII?

Immediately after WW2 there was no participation by Japan in international racing, in fact I doubt if there was any racing in Japan, so the issue never arose.

By 1959 when they first raced in the Isle of Man TT any bans would have been lifted anyway.

Originally posted by Paolo
Was there some sort of racing ban on Japan, after WWII?

Probibly not.

http://www.geocities...r/9597/med.html

On a related note, a quick Google shows that Germany was not invited to the Olympics in 1920 and 1924 and Japan and Germany were not invited in 1948.

Originally posted above by Vitesse2
Scanning the list of members in the BRDC Silver Jubilee Book (published in 1952) I was struck by the total absence of Germans.

Foreign drivers had always been eligible for honorary membership, while team managers and so on were eligible for associate membership.

Given the various exploits of Germans at Ards, Phoenix Park, Donington Park and Shelsley Walsh in the inter-war period, one might expect that at least one or two out of Caracciola, Lang, Stuck, Neubauer or Uhlenhaut would feature even in post-1945 lists. The Honorary Members include eleven Italians, headed of course by Nuvolari and Lurani (who had worn the club's badge at least as early as 1933 when he co-drove with Eyston in the Mille Miglia). There were also sixteen French drivers - including Mme Rouault, who thus qualified as an Honorary Member on two counts! That total includes Amedée Gordini, who could be defined as Italian, but not Chiron, who was technically Monégasque. So - give or take - sixteen or so French.

So - can anyone come up with a pre-War list? I've never seen one, but Caracciola was certainly feted on his few visits to Britain. Rosemeyer would surely have been a shoo-in too ....

To return to the question posed by Vitesse2......

I have a BRDC membership list for January 1938

Honorary German (or German-connected) members at that point were :-

M von Brauchitsh (sic)
R Caracciola
R Hasse
Boris Ivanowsky
Robert Kohlrausch
H Lang
H Muller
B Rosemeyer
Baron Stuck von Villiez (?)
Prince zu Leiningen

All these names had disappeared from the list of Honoray Members in 1948

It is, of course, likely that one or two more names were added before the outbreak of war - in particular after the 1938 Donington G.P.

Originally posted by Adam F


To return to the question posed by Vitesse2......

I have a BRDC membership list for January 1938

Honorary German (or German-connected) members at that point were :-

M von Brauchitsh (sic)
R Caracciola
R Hasse
Boris Ivanowsky
Robert Kohlrausch
H Lang
H Muller
B Rosemeyer
Baron Stuck von Villiez (?)
Prince zu Leiningen

All these names had disappeared from the list of Honoray Members in 1948

It is, of course, likely that one or two more names were added before the outbreak of war - in particular after the 1938 Donington G.P.

Thanks for that, Adam. Much appreciated.

So, we have a TT winner (Caracciola), an Irish GP winner (Ivanowsky), an MG exponent (Kohlrausch), a Shelsley winner (Stuck - never seen that variation on his name before!), a sometime ERA driver (zu Leiningen) and all the other German starters at Donington in 1937. On that basis, the only additional driver from Donington 1938 would be Walter Bäumer.

I wonder if any of them were ever reinstated ....

What is the German link of Ivanowsky ? Wasn't he a Russian living in France.
Hans Stuck's mother was a Baronesse von Villiez. And he used this name sometimes in the 20's and early 30's

Originally posted by Vitesse2
It's also worth examining the races which took place in the Saar in 1949, not to mention the sanctions against the French driver who raced in Germany that year ....;)

Politics, politique, Politik ....

Talking of which, the Saar was under French mandate in this period, so was probably exempt from being considered Germany and therefore free for French drivers to race in. Indeed Saarbrucken played in the French League in football and Saar had an international team entered for the 1954 World Cup (they beat Norway but lost to, er, Germany).

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
What is the German link of Ivanowsky ? Wasn't he a Russian living in France.

Hmm ... yes, good point!

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
Hans Stuck's mother was a Baronesse von Villiez. And he used this name sometimes in the 20's and early 30's

Hugo: in print, I've seen "Hans Stuck von Villiez", "Hans von Stuck" and even "Hans von Stuck von Villiez". But never - in any of those - was the word Baron used!

Originally posted by ensign14

Talking of which, the Saar was under French mandate in this period, so was probably exempt from being considered Germany and therefore free for French drivers to race in. Indeed Saarbrucken played in the French League in football and Saar had an international team entered for the 1954 World Cup (they beat Norway but lost to, er, Germany).

Yes, Alessandro and I discussed that a while back. There were significant political differences at the time.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
On that basis, the only additional driver from Donington 1938 would be Walter Bäumer

I would have thought he might have been on the list anyway, in recognition of his Austin 7 successes at Shelsley Walsh as well as on the Continent

Thanks, Simon. This was neatly side-stepped in "Motor Racing 1947" by not listing any honorary members at all!

Isn't there one, more basic answer to this thread? Perhaps I am mistaken, but in 1914, when the first war broke out, motorracing was much a smaller sport than it was in 1939. At least motorsport at that day was not 'big' enough to be used by any country to glorify its nationalistic values. So a ban in 1914 of German drivers and cars was something like banning English crocquet players from competing. While banning German drivers and cars in 1945 was more akin to banning German tennisplayers...

Sorry Chez, I think you're mistaken

An interesting thread and one that makes TNF so great.

As to why the Italians were treated more lenient after WWII, some good points have been raised, but I wonder if some was due to the "Purity Commitee" which operated in Italy after the war. I understand it investigated folks for their support or non-support of the Fascist and many weren't allowed to work until given clearance by them.

I've read where Gioachino Colombo wasn't allowed to work for Alfa Romeo (even though he was under contract with them) until after he was cleared by the commitee. That was why he was working with Enzo Ferrari in the early 1940's (Enzo had been cleared rather easily) as Colombo had been "blacklisted" because he had been a bit too ardent in his support of the Fascists and wasn't allowed back at Alfa until some inside the company insisted he was needed for the overall good of Alfa and Italy's return to post war production.

Does anyone know if Germany have such a commitee?

Does anyone know if Germany have such a commitee?

545 of them, set up as courts. But that was just in the American Zone: the French and British Zones handled it differently. The Russians different again:

http://en.wikipedia..../Denazification

But there's no hard and fast rule: Lang and von Brauchitsch were both "cleared" under the US system, although I suspect they both received a certain amount of help from Daimler Benz in that regard. Manfred, especially, was lucky: I've never seen an explanation of how he'd managed to acquire a lingerie shop in Prague!

Incidentally, having read some of Filippini's wartime writings I'm surprised he was rehabilitated so soon!

545 of them, set up as courts. But that was just in the American Zone: the French and British Zones handled it differently. The Russians different again:

http://en.wikipedia..../Denazification

But there's no hard and fast rule: Lang and von Brauchitsch were both "cleared" under the US system, although I suspect they both received a certain amount of help from Daimler Benz in that regard. Manfred, especially, was lucky: I've never seen an explanation of how he'd managed to acquire a lingerie shop in Prague!

Incidentally, having read some of Filippini's wartime writings I'm surprised he was rehabilitated so soon!

Yes, I was aware of those. I should have been more clear. The Italian commisions, as I understand them, were set up and run by fellow Italians. That was sort of my point, that the Italians appeared more ready to divest themselves from this but I seem to remember most Germans were against the commitees set up by the Allies. That's why I wondered if there were any similar German ones. Perhaps this also helped the Italians return to racing with little or no trouble.

I think you are on a wrong trace with this. From what I have read in contemprorary publications the main reason for German absence until 1950 seems to haave been the lack of 'representation'. Indeed there had been a "ban" on German drivers, entrants and cars in France and maybe also in other countries initiaally after the war, but there were other countries like Switzerland for example, where German cars were no problem. German drivers were not allowed nevertheless, but Swiss magazine 'Automobil revue' explains the reason because they were not represented by the FIA and the FIA would not allow 'unorganized' drivers, entrants or events.

That is probably the main difference to Italy, the German government - and with this the whole state and all 'national' organizations simply ceased to exist. In contrast to this in Italy there had been more or less only a 'change of government' in 1943 (and I think after that Italy actually joined into the allied coalition in the war AGAINST Germany), so there was probably very much continuity in the Italian Automobil Club as well.

In Germany the administration was taken over by allied occupation governments, which operated more or less independent from each other. 'Organization' (on any level) had to be built up again and in motorsport this was initially not done by 'clubs', but rather by pragmatic semi-official 'working groups'. Anyyway, if the Allied would have intended a "ban" on German motorsport they could have easily prevented this effectively as they were in full control of the country. But in fact in some cases it seems that they even promoted sporting activities against upcoming local German administrations.

Later when the ADAC was refounded this was initalliy limited only to the American Zone with the British and French Zone following up only with a time delay. Also this meant a conflict between that club and the existing 'working groups' over who was allowed to organize the event and who was not. When they finally had come to an agreement the same thing happened again with the refoundation of the AvD, who also claimed to be Germany´s one and only righful represntative orgaanization in the FIA. Finally AvD and ADAC came to an agreement as well (to the cost of the 'working groups' who had so effectively worked to build up the sport again), which had been condition of the FIA for taking Germany up as a member again.

All this needed time well to the end of 1949, so Germans were allowed to take part in the international events again from the beginning of 1950. Only France announced, that they would not allow any Germans into their events or French drivers to start on German soil (but reverted this already before the season started to get really going), which is again indication, that this French "ban" and the exclusion of Germany by the FIA were two different story lines.

Isn't there one, more basic answer to this thread? Perhaps I am mistaken, but in 1914, when the first war broke out, motorracing was much a smaller sport than it was in 1939. At least motorsport at that day was not 'big' enough to be used by any country to glorify its nationalistic values. So a ban in 1914 of German drivers and cars was something like banning English crocquet players from competing. While banning German drivers and cars in 1945 was more akin to banning German tennisplayers...

The 1914 Grand Prix de l'ACF, held in July 1914, was a major sports story all over the continent. And maybe even bigger than just sports: it was felt as a direct Franco-German clash -technological or otherwise- less then a month before the start of WW I. And France was shocked by the outcome.

An estimated number of 300.000 spectators might tell us something. You can read an excellent article about it all at http://8w.forix.com/f14.html

The 1914 Grand Prix de l'ACF, held in July 1914, was a major sports story all over the continent. And maybe even bigger than just sports: it was felt as a direct Franco-German clash -technological or otherwise- less then a month before the start of WW I. And France was shocked by the outcome.

An estimated number of 300.000 spectators might tell us something. You can read an excellent article about it all at http://8w.forix.com/f14.html

Good point, thanks for the link. But still. If I type in in the search button at Nostalgia the items 'Rosemayer, Nuvolari, Varzi' I think the amount of hits will be much greater than if search for Lautenschlager, Bouillot and Szisz... which says something, I think.

Only the same as you'll find more hits for Schumacher or Senna than for Rsoemeyer, Nuvolari etc - the more recent the driver, the more interest

Only the same as you'll find more hits for Schumacher or Senna than for Rsoemeyer, Nuvolari etc - the more recent the driver, the more interest

True. But I still think that the way motorsport was perceived in 1914 and say, 1930, was very, very different... And I think that in ten years, threads about Schumacher will be outnumbered by those about Jim Clark...

That's your opinion

Mine is the opposite - in both cases

Not wishing to take this too far O/T, but in 1914, there was not just a Grand Prix. It was THE Grand Prix: there was an enormous amount of interest across the whole continent. This link will take you to the race report of "Der Grand Prix" from the Austrian Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung: it covers 58 pages!

http://anno.onb.ac.a...m...0712&zoom=2

You can find similar reports in all the motoring magazines of the time. But the French and German ones are even more nationalistic!

That's your opinion

Mine is the opposite - in both cases

Don't worry. I won't.

True. But I still think that the way motorsport was perceived in 1914 and say, 1930, was very, very different...

True - by 1930, motor racing had lost most of its aura, although it has regained some of it in the last 80 years. But it will never be as big again as 1914, probably the greatest year ever for international interest in racing. In the USofA, 1915 was perhaps even better in that respect than 1914, but for worldwide interest 1914 takes a lot of beating.

Now, here's a funny thing ... as in "funny peculiar":

Carraciola ne courra pas (A. S.). —

On sait que des démarches ont été entreprises par quelques sportsmen suisses influents dans le but d'obtenir pour Caracciola l'autorisation de s'aligner dans les courses automobiles. Cette requête a été écartée par la Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile et elle a confirmé sa précédente décision de n'autoriser des pilotes allemands à prendre part à des courses que lorsqu'une fédération allemande fera partie de la FIA.

Carraciola will not race (A. S.). -

We know that steps have been undertaken by some influential Swiss sportsmen to gain permission for Caracciola to compete in motor racing. This request was rejected by the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile and it has confirmed its previous decision not to allow German drivers to take part in races until a German federation becomes part of the FIA.

Now, from the foregoing posts - especially Hans' assertion that Rudi became a Swiss citizen in November 1946 and the previous discussion about licences - one might think that this piece from the newspaper Feuille d'Avis de Lausanne dates from somewhere about late 1945 or early 1946. After all, he was due to drive at Indianapolis in May 1946.

However, the observant among you will already (I hope) have noticed that it refers to the FIA - the name which the former AIACR did not adopt until July 1946. At which time Caracciola was in America, recovering from his Indy accident chez Hulman. Entry lists for Indy show that the entry for the W165 was made in the name of Alice Caracciola Troberg: Frau Caracciola was still a Swedish citizen, thus fulfilling the "non-German entrant for German cars" requirement previously mentioned.

Which brings us back to the question of how Rudi was to be authorised to drive. With the only apparent answer being that the AAA were going to issue him with a US national licence, based perhaps (and I'm guessing here) on the fact that he might have been issued an International Driving Licence in addition to what was presumably a Swiss permis de conduire. But that would have of course meant they were going against a specific decision of the international body: admittedly it was not apparently promulgated until July, but if I can refer you back to post 36 of this thread, you'll see that The Autocar did actually query it at the time! Before he left for America the Swiss press also reported that Caracciola intended taking a holiday after racing in the 500 and would then return in time to race the W165 in the GP des Nations in Geneva.

I wonder how the AC Suisse would have dealt with that. It is of course possible that they had issued him with a Swiss licence before the FIA decision was announced in July. But in that case, why would the car have been entered in Alice's name - surely the two decisions must have been made at the same time?

So why does this matter? Because, you see, that Swiss newspaper piece is not from 1945. Nor even from 1946. It's from the issue dated December 19th 1947.

The matter was not resolved until April 1948. Same paper, April 10th 1948:

Caracciola est citoyen sulsse
On apprend, de Lugano, que le fameux coureur d'automobile, Rodolphe Caracciola, de nationalité allemande, a obtenu sa naturalisation de citoyen suisse. Ainsi en a décidé le Conseil communal de Castagnola au Tessin, On sait que Caracciola s'était fixé dès 1930 à Ruviglina.

Caracciola is a Swiss citizen
We learn, from Lugano, that the famous racing driver, Rodolphe Caracciola, of German nationality, has acquired naturalisation as a Swiss citizen. This was decided by the communal Council of Castagnola in Tessin. It is known that Caracciola has lived in Ruviglina since 1930.

There is a typo in the place name - it should be Ruvigliana.

So, this seems to make it crystal clear that Germans could not only not obtain a racing licence in their home country, but even expatriates could not get one either. Again, I refer you back, this time to post 33 and The Motor's piece from July 1949 which, by implication, says exactly that.

Edited by Vitesse2, 27 January 2013 - 00:18.

I've read this thread and I can't see any answer given, but it's something I've often wondered, whether the terms West (and lessly East) were ever used with in terms of German motorsport? I've never heard any reference to a West German GP and the drivers always seem to have been called Germans as opposed to West Germans.

So, this seems to make it crystal clear that Germans could not only not obtain a racing licence in their home country, but even expatriates could not get one either. Again, I refer you back, this time to post 33 and The Motor's piece from July 1949 which, by implication, says exactly that.

But after all they allowed Hans Stuck, so obviously it was demnanded, that the driver needed to change nationality of his passport AND his license. Or perhaps Caracciola with a Mercedes was more in the focus than Stuck on an Italian car? Maybe also the cases were handled more individually by the FIA in those days and sometimes in "less spectacular cases" they did not bother too much?

I've read this thread and I can't see any answer given, but it's something I've often wondered, whether the terms West (and lessly East) were ever used with in terms of German motorsport? I've never heard any reference to a West German GP and the drivers always seem to have been called Germans as opposed to West Germans.

"West Germany" and "East Germany" were really shorthand terms and had no real official standing - the official names (in English) being "Federal Republic of Germany" and "German Democratic Republic", neither of which trips as easily off the tongue as east or west.

I believe - that since both governments laid claim to being the only legitimate government of the whole of Germany - the use of the terms "West Germany" and "East Germany" was actively discouraged on both sides. But I'm sure one of our German friends can give a definitive answer!

Also, bear in mind that for almost all the period discussed in this thread, neither of those entities existed: the creation of the GDR was announced in April 1949, that of the Federal Republic of Germany in May 1949.

But after all they allowed Hans Stuck, so obviously it was demnanded, that the driver needed to change nationality of his passport AND his license. Or perhaps Caracciola with a Mercedes was more in the focus than Stuck on an Italian car? Maybe also the cases were handled more individually by the FIA in those days and sometimes in "less spectacular cases" they did not bother too much?

I can only assume that Stuck based his claim to Austrian citizenship on some combination of having been born in what was then the Austro-Hungarian Empire and long-term residency in Sankt Anton am Arlberg.

But, like much of his life, I suspect we have to file this under either "obscure" or "unexplained"!

Perhaps Martin Pfundner knows more?

I've read this thread and I can't see any answer given, but it's something I've often wondered, whether the terms West (and lessly East) were ever used with in terms of German motorsport? I've never heard any reference to a West German GP and the drivers always seem to have been called Germans as opposed to West Germans.

A simple question, but I am afraid it will need quite a complicated answer, which may exceed my knowledge of the English language. Anyway I have a try.

First I have to state, that just as the relations between the two German states did change much over the years, so for any time period you will probably have different answers to the question. Remember, initially there was always only one "Germany", but divided into different occupation zones. Later, when the West German state (FRG) was founded, the Eastern government still claimed the position, that there should be still a united country. Only much later they changed their politics and then claimed the GDR to be a "nation" of its own, while then the Western government did not recognize this and insisted on the prospect of a re-union. So in general we have three phases: 1945 to 1949, when there was a common "nation" divided into four zones (plus Berlin with a quite special status), when all the citicens were "Germans". Then 1949 to around 1960, where I do not know exactly about what forms of "citizenship" did exist, and finally 1961 to 1990, where there was a "GDR" citizenship, but everybody who came from the East to the West would get automatically an "FRG" passport if he wanted. And for example even until the end of the East German state the most common West German boulevard newspaper still printed the letters "DDR" with double quotes always to indicate that they did not regard them as an acknowledged country.

Also on the sporting side it needed quite a long time to sort things out. It needed until 1972 before there were two official national teams at the Olympic games, before this there were "combined" teams (usually with kind of qualifiying rounds for the athletes) and also many discussions about flag and anthem.

And to make things even more complicated in motorsport even in the West there was much discord in the organizational background. Initially it was not allowed for Germans to have associations, then around 1947/48 they were allowed WITHIN the occupation zones, but not "inter-zonal". So the different clubs had to form a "loose cooperation", with a committe called "ADM" (if I remember correctly) at the top. Shortly later the ADAC was formed again and spread at least over the American and the British zone and demanded motorsport authority. They negotiated with the ADM and found a compromise, so that they expected to be admitted to FIA by the end of 1948. But soon things were disturbed again by the re-foundation of the AvD which in turn claimed the exclusive right for representing Germany in the FIA. In the following struggle the ADAC finally switched sides and found a compromise with the AvD by leaving the ADM behind. It took all during 1949 until things were finally settled and Germany was readmitted to the FIA.

With a totally different ideology of course the East German authorities did not support this. Instead they installed their own "top" organizaition, but according to their ideology this was not an independent "association" (as would be demanded by the FIA), but a governmental institution instead, which of course did not subordinate itself under the AvD. So until 1955 East Germany was represented only indirectly by the AvD (as the AvD did regard itself as all-German representation), but that is the reason, why East German drivers could start in international events held on West German ground but not in foreign countries. Only in 1956 the GDR achieved full FIA membership for themselves, but the AvD still represented "Germany". So that must have been the reason why there was stillalways the "German GP" (and not a "West German GP").

Hope I could help for some better understanding even if in detail the things may have been even more complex...

I can only assume that Stuck based his claim to Austrian citizenship on some combination of having been born in what was then the Austro-Hungarian Empire and long-term residency in Sankt Anton am Arlberg.

Please try to do not spread this myth. He was born at Warsaw and this city was NEVER part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, so Stuck was no "native" Austrian, but a "naturalized" citizen (hope this is the right word for somebody who has adopted citizenship). As far as I remember he was offered the Austrian citizenship already before the war because of his racing merits, but he still did hold his German passport and continued to race as "German".

Also maybe the "border" between Austria and Germany may have been a little less "firm" as it was after 1945. We may have problems today to understand the differences today, but until then there may have been quite more differentation with the terms "nationality" and "citizenship". Remember, Austria (the "German" part of it) had been always part of the old German Empire and later also of the German Confederation (until 1866), while for example Eastern Prussia had been not!

(In this context I remember a funny story when I worked for my old insurance company. On the forms there was a field for "nationality", until one of our customers filled in "Tartar". The accounting clerk had big problems to find a country like this in his list, so the form was changed into "citizenship of state"!)

Edited by uechtel, 28 January 2013 - 09:45.

Willy Brandt talked of BRD and DDR as being "two states within one nation", which I thought was an elegant way of putting it.

Same status incidentally applies in Korea; indeed until 1972 Seoul was the official capital of North Korea as well, and in North Korea calling it "North" is verboten, it has to be called the People's Democratic Republic.

Please try to do not spread this myth. He was born at Warsaw and this city was NEVER part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, so Stuck was no "native" Austrian, but a "naturalized" citizen (hope this is the right word for somebody who has adopted citizenship). As far as I remember he was offered the Austrian citizenship already before the war because of his racing merits, but he still did hold his German passport and continued to race as "German".

Memo to self: learn more nineteenth century Eastern European historical geography ;) I genuinely thought Warsaw was in the A-H bit rather than the Russian bit!

If only they hadn't kept partitioning it ...

Edited by Vitesse2, 28 January 2013 - 13:07.

Though I have to correct myself, obviously Stuck was not "fully acknowledged" Austrian citizen, but only driving with Austrian license:

And really sorry, I have even my deep doubts about that. At least never a "proper" Austrian nationality.

Having now become curious I hav done a little deeper investigation on him today. Here is what I have found.

His grandfather had been of Swiss nationality and his name had been "Stucki", but had dropped the "i" to make the name sound more "German" when he moved to Germany.

And then I also did a quick read across his biography "Der Bergkönig erzählt", which has been printed as a series of stories in the East German magazine "Illustrierter Motorpsort" in 1953/54.

He was born on a journey of his parents to Poland, where his father, Wilhelm Stuck, had a branch of his sewing-silk factory.

Interesting to read this I learn, that the former name of his mother had been Maria von Villiez, so this seems to be the reason for the usage of the "von" on some occasions.

Other than that the family lived at Waldkirch near Freiburg in the Southwest of Germany (not far from Switzerland) and also the Villiez family seems to be from the Mannheim or Rastatt area, so no Austrian nationality by birth, which is confirmed by the following passage (about 1946):

"Of course Stuck wanted to take part in racing again, which was not possible as long as he remained German, because Germans could not get a license. Also he had to move away from the new Austria, as the community of St. Anton did not give land to him (to build up a workshop) as he was German. So he had to return to his home country.
By accident he made a halt on his way home at Grainau, where he remained and set foot.
[...]
The new Italian company Cisitalia had developed a new 1100 cc race car. Porsche was about to design a Grand Prix car for the company and they were looking for a world class driver. Stuck was in the choice, but he was German, hence without a license. But he was again lucky. In 1929 and 1930 he had won the European [mountain] Championship for Austro Daimler and to thank him for this he had been granted Austrian natinality "honoris causa". This was new reason for Stuck´s hopes and he began negotiations with the clubs and the government and indeed he was granted the Austrian license No.1. Right from the beginning he was stating, that he would use that only for the time until he would be able to get a German license again."

So if the text is telling the truth I understand, that he had only some kind of a "semi-nationality" in Austria and was driving with Austrian license from 1947 to 1949. All the rest he was always full-time German.

(copied from my post #22 in this thread: http://forums.autosp...hl=stuck warsaw)

Edited by uechtel, 28 January 2013 - 12:32.

Only in 1956 the GDR achieved full FIA membership for themselves, but the AvD still represented "Germany". So that must have been the reason why there was stillalways the "German GP" (and not a "West German GP").

Far easier than that: it's just a name! It's always been the "AvD Großer Preis von Deutschland", no matter what the (official) name of the country is, just like the "RAC British Grand Prix" is not named after the United Kingdom. You could call'em the "Großer Preis von Schnierz" and the "Snoddish Grand Prix", as well; it has the same meaning.

...just like the "RAC British Grand Prix" is not named after the United Kingdom.

Thank God for that. 'United Kingdom' is a very silly term and in these days of Scottish Parliaments, Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies and so forth it seems an ever more glaring misnomer.

Thanks for all the responses

... the creation of the GDR was announced in April 1949, that of the Federal Republic of Germany in May 1949.

Just to get it right: The Federal Republic of Germany was founded on 23rd May 1949 and (as response) the GDR on 7th October 1949.