Originally posted by dmj
generally it seems that no one in the world has bad oppinion on Dannish people...
I know it isn't funny but it amused me to see how times are changing...
Posted 16 February 2006 - 09:20
Originally posted by dmj
generally it seems that no one in the world has bad oppinion on Dannish people...
Advertisement
Posted 16 February 2006 - 10:11
Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:26
Originally posted by D-Type
Was it the case that the degree of, shall we say, sanction against German drivers was different from that against (manufacturer's) teams?
Posted 17 February 2006 - 00:07
Posted 18 February 2006 - 19:09
29.09.1946 Karlsruhe Albert Farré F (member of French occupation forces) 11.05.1947 Hockenheim Albert Farré F 22.06.1947 Schotten Albert Farré F Norbert Eberle CH (but German-resident) 31.08.1947 Hamburg "Victor Alexander" ? (hidden idendity for perhaps Alexander Orley?) 20.06.1948 Schotten (race cancelled) Norbert Eberle CH 15.08.1948 Schotten Albert Farré F 19.09.1948 Grenzlandring "Philippe Armand" F (unknown identity) 08.05.1949 Hockenheim "Philippe Armand" F 07.08.1949 Nürburgring Hermann Roosdorp B Roger Loyer F Eugene Martin F (dna) "Robert" F (dna) 11.09.1949 Grenzlandring Hermann Roosdorp B Anni Roosdorp B "Armand Philippe" F 25.09.1949 Nürnberg Matthias Rühl F (dna) 02.10.1949 Köln Hermann Roosdorp B 14.05.1950 Hockenheim "Armand Philippe" F plus 18.09.1949 Saarbrücken Eugene Martin F Harry Schell USA/F Auguste Veuillet F "Armand Philippe" F Roger Loyer F Primo Bizarri ?
BMW "1947" (by Falkenhausen) driven by Norbert Eberle at Berne 1947 "Todd Speciale" (disguised German-built special) driven by Alexander Orley and Harry Schell 1947/48 in various French events Veritas (disguised) practised by Eugene Chaboud at Strasbourg 1947, excluded Veritas (disguised) driven by Hermann Trümpy at Dornach-Gempen hillclimb, Switzerland 1947 Veritas (disguised as METEOR?) driven by Eugene Chaboud and Roger Loyer at Reims and St. Gaudens 1948, also entered for Angouleme AFM 1947 campaigned by Peter Hirt in Swiss events during 1948/49 Veritas driven by Claes / Cornet and Loyer / Chardonnet at the Paris 12 h 1948
Posted 19 February 2006 - 17:37
Posted 23 January 2008 - 08:19
Posted 25 August 2008 - 23:24
Posted 26 August 2008 - 13:50
Originally posted by uechtel
Altogether I can see the following three possible explanations for "why only Germany":
1. the crimes, that were committed - obviously excluding starting the war itself, for otherwise this should have affected Italy, too - plus also neglecting the participation of Austrians in the Nazi regime
2. Germany was the only remaining "looser" of the war - Italy had swapped sides in 1943, joined the Allies and declared war on Germany (to my knowledge), while Austria simply did not exist, so it could not be regarded as a participating state in the war.
3. there was nothing like a "Germany" in the years after 1945. Italy had persisted as an independent country and Austria was resurrected at least with a nation-wide self government, even this was under Allied control. In contrast in Germany the political structures had to be built up bottom-up again completely, which happened quite differently in the four occupation zones accordingly to the contrary political aims of the concurring Allied governments. So the already existing economical chaos was increased by a political chaos, which left some niches for more or less self-organised motorsport, but prevented any chance of building up proper organization structures.
But I think we must distinguish between the time up to about 1948 and the situation of 1949. In this first period to me it seems, that the first factor was the most decisive, at least regarding the French-German relationship, as the happenings at Strasbourg in 1947 or the "Frazernash-sation" of so many BMW indicate. On the other hand there seem to have been much lesser resentiments in Switzerland, where there was felt a much lesser need for such disguise. Also interesting to see, that in fact the first foreigner to participate in races on German soil was an officer of the French military government in Germany, Albert Farré, who started at Karlsruhe as early as September 1946! If he would have ran into trouble because of this I would think he would not have repeated this at Hockenheim and Schotten in 1947...
After 1948 it seems to have been a different story and now I think the third reason turned more and more into the problem. With the foundation of the "FRG" in the three Western zones did not mean immediate membership in the FIA, not so much beacause of lasting ressentiments, but mainly because the many motoring and motor-racing organizations had to sort themselves out first. The FIA had welcomed Germany membership already earlier that year, but the problem was which German club to acknowledge as full member (the AvD, the ADAC, the DMV, the OMK plus the East Germans...). So until this matter was not settled any event carried out by one of these clubs was legally a "wild event", and I think that was the reason for the sanctions on Roger Loyer for his participation in the Nürburgring GP in 1949. On the other hand Hermann Roosdorp did not have to face similar treatment by the Belgian club.
As this is a very interesting discussion I have put up a list of all foreign starters in German events in the years 1946 to 1949 I know of, which means excluding Formula 3 / midget racing and the minor sports car classes:29.09.1946 Karlsruhe Albert Farré F (member of French occupation forces) 11.05.1947 Hockenheim Albert Farré F 22.06.1947 Schotten Albert Farré F Norbert Eberle CH (but German-resident) 31.08.1947 Hamburg "Victor Alexander" ? (hidden idendity for perhaps Alexander Orley?) 20.06.1948 Schotten (race cancelled) Norbert Eberle CH 15.08.1948 Schotten Albert Farré F 19.09.1948 Grenzlandring "Philippe Armand" F (unknown identity) 08.05.1949 Hockenheim "Philippe Armand" F 07.08.1949 Nürburgring Hermann Roosdorp B Roger Loyer F Eugene Martin F (dna) "Robert" F (dna) 11.09.1949 Grenzlandring Hermann Roosdorp B Anni Roosdorp B "Armand Philippe" F 25.09.1949 Nürnberg Matthias Rühl F (dna) 02.10.1949 Köln Hermann Roosdorp B 14.05.1950 Hockenheim "Armand Philippe" F plus 18.09.1949 Saarbrücken Eugene Martin F Harry Schell USA/F Auguste Veuillet F "Armand Philippe" F Roger Loyer F Primo Bizarri ?
After that the firts true international event on German soil was the Schauinsland hillclimb on 6.8.1950 with participation of Scuderia Milan plus strong Swiss and Bristish detachments.
For the German drivers the situation seems to have been handled more strictly, as besides Caracciola and Stuck I have not found any participations in a foreign event before Ulmen and Rieß appeared at Erlen on 7.5.1950. Writing this, the question arises to me, why Stuck did not face any problems with his starts inside and outside Germany in 1947-1949. Would not driving under Austrian license technically have made him a "foreigner" in the German events, too?
Finally, as this seems to have been a matter in the immediate post-war years, also a list of German cars (only to those built after the war) being entered in foreign events:BMW "1947" (by Falkenhausen) driven by Norbert Eberle at Berne 1947 "Todd Speciale" (disguised German-built special) driven by Alexander Orley and Harry Schell 1947/48 in various French events Veritas (disguised) practised by Eugene Chaboud at Strasbourg 1947, excluded Veritas (disguised) driven by Hermann Trümpy at Dornach-Gempen hillclimb, Switzerland 1947 Veritas (disguised as METEOR?) driven by Eugene Chaboud and Roger Loyer at Reims and St. Gaudens 1948, also entered for Angouleme AFM 1947 campaigned by Peter Hirt in Swiss events during 1948/49 Veritas driven by Claes / Cornet and Loyer / Chardonnet at the Paris 12 h 1948
Advertisement
Posted 26 August 2008 - 14:18
19.09.1948 Grenzlandring "Philippe Armand" F (unknown identity)
Originally posted by bidochon
some pictures of the French driver Philippe in reality : Armand Kotja , he work for French secret service , for a nebulous job !!! for these pictures my brother say : pictures taken in Deutschland palatinat in 1949 outside a house which was used like arm warehouse , we have been take here ( why ? ) by a israel colonel called Bec..ell who was found assasinate later !!! what are incredible time , sometime curious meeting in racing cars is' nt ?
18.09.1949 Saarbrücken "Armand Philippe" F
Originally posted by bidochon
three other pictures from my father's archives , the driver : Armand Philippe , the car was certainly a véritas but where ? year ?
Originally posted by bidochon
Originally posted by bidochon
Posted 26 August 2008 - 14:47
Posted 26 August 2008 - 15:11
Posted 26 August 2008 - 15:22
Probibly not.Originally posted by Paolo
Was there some sort of racing ban on Japan, after WWII?
Posted 26 August 2008 - 16:52
Posted 26 August 2008 - 19:51
Originally posted above by Vitesse2
Scanning the list of members in the BRDC Silver Jubilee Book (published in 1952) I was struck by the total absence of Germans.
Foreign drivers had always been eligible for honorary membership, while team managers and so on were eligible for associate membership.
Given the various exploits of Germans at Ards, Phoenix Park, Donington Park and Shelsley Walsh in the inter-war period, one might expect that at least one or two out of Caracciola, Lang, Stuck, Neubauer or Uhlenhaut would feature even in post-1945 lists. The Honorary Members include eleven Italians, headed of course by Nuvolari and Lurani (who had worn the club's badge at least as early as 1933 when he co-drove with Eyston in the Mille Miglia). There were also sixteen French drivers - including Mme Rouault, who thus qualified as an Honorary Member on two counts! That total includes Amedée Gordini, who could be defined as Italian, but not Chiron, who was technically Monégasque. So - give or take - sixteen or so French.
So - can anyone come up with a pre-War list? I've never seen one, but Caracciola was certainly feted on his few visits to Britain. Rosemeyer would surely have been a shoo-in too ....
Posted 26 August 2008 - 21:18
Thanks for that, Adam. Much appreciated.Originally posted by Adam F
To return to the question posed by Vitesse2......
I have a BRDC membership list for January 1938
Honorary German (or German-connected) members at that point were :-
M von Brauchitsh (sic)
R Caracciola
R Hasse
Boris Ivanowsky
Robert Kohlrausch
H Lang
H Muller
B Rosemeyer
Baron Stuck von Villiez (?)
Prince zu Leiningen
All these names had disappeared from the list of Honoray Members in 1948
It is, of course, likely that one or two more names were added before the outbreak of war - in particular after the 1938 Donington G.P.
Posted 26 August 2008 - 21:28
Posted 26 August 2008 - 21:38
Talking of which, the Saar was under French mandate in this period, so was probably exempt from being considered Germany and therefore free for French drivers to race in. Indeed Saarbrucken played in the French League in football and Saar had an international team entered for the 1954 World Cup (they beat Norway but lost to, er, Germany).Originally posted by Vitesse2
It's also worth examining the races which took place in the Saar in 1949, not to mention the sanctions against the French driver who raced in Germany that year ....;)
Politics, politique, Politik ....
Posted 26 August 2008 - 21:40
Hmm ... yes, good point!Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
What is the German link of Ivanowsky ? Wasn't he a Russian living in France.
Hugo: in print, I've seen "Hans Stuck von Villiez", "Hans von Stuck" and even "Hans von Stuck von Villiez". But never - in any of those - was the word Baron used!Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
Hans Stuck's mother was a Baronesse von Villiez. And he used this name sometimes in the 20's and early 30's
Posted 26 August 2008 - 21:44
Yes, Alessandro and I discussed that a while back. There were significant political differences at the time.Originally posted by ensign14
Talking of which, the Saar was under French mandate in this period, so was probably exempt from being considered Germany and therefore free for French drivers to race in. Indeed Saarbrucken played in the French League in football and Saar had an international team entered for the 1954 World Cup (they beat Norway but lost to, er, Germany).
Posted 26 August 2008 - 22:32
I would have thought he might have been on the list anyway, in recognition of his Austin 7 successes at Shelsley Walsh as well as on the ContinentOriginally posted by Vitesse2
On that basis, the only additional driver from Donington 1938 would be Walter Bäumer
Posted 30 December 2010 - 21:11
Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:07
Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:14
Posted 31 December 2010 - 21:43
Posted 31 December 2010 - 22:31
545 of them, set up as courts. But that was just in the American Zone: the French and British Zones handled it differently. The Russians different again:Does anyone know if Germany have such a commitee?
Posted 01 January 2011 - 01:16
545 of them, set up as courts. But that was just in the American Zone: the French and British Zones handled it differently. The Russians different again:
http://en.wikipedia..../Denazification
But there's no hard and fast rule: Lang and von Brauchitsch were both "cleared" under the US system, although I suspect they both received a certain amount of help from Daimler Benz in that regard. Manfred, especially, was lucky: I've never seen an explanation of how he'd managed to acquire a lingerie shop in Prague!
Incidentally, having read some of Filippini's wartime writings I'm surprised he was rehabilitated so soon!
Posted 01 January 2011 - 20:42
Posted 01 January 2011 - 21:22
The 1914 Grand Prix de l'ACF, held in July 1914, was a major sports story all over the continent. And maybe even bigger than just sports: it was felt as a direct Franco-German clash -technological or otherwise- less then a month before the start of WW I. And France was shocked by the outcome.Isn't there one, more basic answer to this thread? Perhaps I am mistaken, but in 1914, when the first war broke out, motorracing was much a smaller sport than it was in 1939. At least motorsport at that day was not 'big' enough to be used by any country to glorify its nationalistic values. So a ban in 1914 of German drivers and cars was something like banning English crocquet players from competing. While banning German drivers and cars in 1945 was more akin to banning German tennisplayers...
Advertisement
Posted 02 January 2011 - 09:09
The 1914 Grand Prix de l'ACF, held in July 1914, was a major sports story all over the continent. And maybe even bigger than just sports: it was felt as a direct Franco-German clash -technological or otherwise- less then a month before the start of WW I. And France was shocked by the outcome.
An estimated number of 300.000 spectators might tell us something. You can read an excellent article about it all at http://8w.forix.com/f14.html
Posted 02 January 2011 - 10:08
Posted 02 January 2011 - 10:34
Only the same as you'll find more hits for Schumacher or Senna than for Rsoemeyer, Nuvolari etc - the more recent the driver, the more interest
Posted 02 January 2011 - 10:38
Posted 02 January 2011 - 12:54
Posted 02 January 2011 - 15:50
That's your opinion
Mine is the opposite - in both cases
Posted 03 January 2011 - 18:21
True. But I still think that the way motorsport was perceived in 1914 and say, 1930, was very, very different...
Posted 27 January 2013 - 00:13
Now, from the foregoing posts - especially Hans' assertion that Rudi became a Swiss citizen in November 1946 and the previous discussion about licences - one might think that this piece from the newspaper Feuille d'Avis de Lausanne dates from somewhere about late 1945 or early 1946. After all, he was due to drive at Indianapolis in May 1946.Carraciola ne courra pas (A. S.). —
On sait que des démarches ont été entreprises par quelques sportsmen suisses influents dans le but d'obtenir pour Caracciola l'autorisation de s'aligner dans les courses automobiles. Cette requête a été écartée par la Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile et elle a confirmé sa précédente décision de n'autoriser des pilotes allemands à prendre part à des courses que lorsqu'une fédération allemande fera partie de la FIA.
Carraciola will not race (A. S.). -
We know that steps have been undertaken by some influential Swiss sportsmen to gain permission for Caracciola to compete in motor racing. This request was rejected by the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile and it has confirmed its previous decision not to allow German drivers to take part in races until a German federation becomes part of the FIA.
There is a typo in the place name - it should be Ruvigliana.Caracciola est citoyen sulsse
On apprend, de Lugano, que le fameux coureur d'automobile, Rodolphe Caracciola, de nationalité allemande, a obtenu sa naturalisation de citoyen suisse. Ainsi en a décidé le Conseil communal de Castagnola au Tessin, On sait que Caracciola s'était fixé dès 1930 à Ruviglina.
Caracciola is a Swiss citizen
We learn, from Lugano, that the famous racing driver, Rodolphe Caracciola, of German nationality, has acquired naturalisation as a Swiss citizen. This was decided by the communal Council of Castagnola in Tessin. It is known that Caracciola has lived in Ruviglina since 1930.
Edited by Vitesse2, 27 January 2013 - 00:18.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 00:36
Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:47
So, this seems to make it crystal clear that Germans could not only not obtain a racing licence in their home country, but even expatriates could not get one either. Again, I refer you back, this time to post 33 and The Motor's piece from July 1949 which, by implication, says exactly that.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:06
"West Germany" and "East Germany" were really shorthand terms and had no real official standing - the official names (in English) being "Federal Republic of Germany" and "German Democratic Republic", neither of which trips as easily off the tongue as east or west.I've read this thread and I can't see any answer given, but it's something I've often wondered, whether the terms West (and lessly East) were ever used with in terms of German motorsport? I've never heard any reference to a West German GP and the drivers always seem to have been called Germans as opposed to West Germans.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:26
I can only assume that Stuck based his claim to Austrian citizenship on some combination of having been born in what was then the Austro-Hungarian Empire and long-term residency in Sankt Anton am Arlberg.But after all they allowed Hans Stuck, so obviously it was demnanded, that the driver needed to change nationality of his passport AND his license. Or perhaps Caracciola with a Mercedes was more in the focus than Stuck on an Italian car? Maybe also the cases were handled more individually by the FIA in those days and sometimes in "less spectacular cases" they did not bother too much?
Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:27
A simple question, but I am afraid it will need quite a complicated answer, which may exceed my knowledge of the English language. Anyway I have a try.I've read this thread and I can't see any answer given, but it's something I've often wondered, whether the terms West (and lessly East) were ever used with in terms of German motorsport? I've never heard any reference to a West German GP and the drivers always seem to have been called Germans as opposed to West Germans.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:44
I can only assume that Stuck based his claim to Austrian citizenship on some combination of having been born in what was then the Austro-Hungarian Empire and long-term residency in Sankt Anton am Arlberg.
Edited by uechtel, 28 January 2013 - 09:45.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:15
Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:10
Memo to self: learn more nineteenth century Eastern European historical geography ;) I genuinely thought Warsaw was in the A-H bit rather than the Russian bit!Please try to do not spread this myth. He was born at Warsaw and this city was NEVER part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, so Stuck was no "native" Austrian, but a "naturalized" citizen (hope this is the right word for somebody who has adopted citizenship). As far as I remember he was offered the Austrian citizenship already before the war because of his racing merits, but he still did hold his German passport and continued to race as "German".
Edited by Vitesse2, 28 January 2013 - 13:07.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:31
And really sorry, I have even my deep doubts about that. At least never a "proper" Austrian nationality.
Having now become curious I hav done a little deeper investigation on him today. Here is what I have found.
His grandfather had been of Swiss nationality and his name had been "Stucki", but had dropped the "i" to make the name sound more "German" when he moved to Germany.
And then I also did a quick read across his biography "Der Bergkönig erzählt", which has been printed as a series of stories in the East German magazine "Illustrierter Motorpsort" in 1953/54.
He was born on a journey of his parents to Poland, where his father, Wilhelm Stuck, had a branch of his sewing-silk factory.
Interesting to read this I learn, that the former name of his mother had been Maria von Villiez, so this seems to be the reason for the usage of the "von" on some occasions.
Other than that the family lived at Waldkirch near Freiburg in the Southwest of Germany (not far from Switzerland) and also the Villiez family seems to be from the Mannheim or Rastatt area, so no Austrian nationality by birth, which is confirmed by the following passage (about 1946):
"Of course Stuck wanted to take part in racing again, which was not possible as long as he remained German, because Germans could not get a license. Also he had to move away from the new Austria, as the community of St. Anton did not give land to him (to build up a workshop) as he was German. So he had to return to his home country.
By accident he made a halt on his way home at Grainau, where he remained and set foot.
[...]
The new Italian company Cisitalia had developed a new 1100 cc race car. Porsche was about to design a Grand Prix car for the company and they were looking for a world class driver. Stuck was in the choice, but he was German, hence without a license. But he was again lucky. In 1929 and 1930 he had won the European [mountain] Championship for Austro Daimler and to thank him for this he had been granted Austrian natinality "honoris causa". This was new reason for Stuck´s hopes and he began negotiations with the clubs and the government and indeed he was granted the Austrian license No.1. Right from the beginning he was stating, that he would use that only for the time until he would be able to get a German license again."
So if the text is telling the truth I understand, that he had only some kind of a "semi-nationality" in Austria and was driving with Austrian license from 1947 to 1949. All the rest he was always full-time German.
Edited by uechtel, 28 January 2013 - 12:32.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 19:57
Only in 1956 the GDR achieved full FIA membership for themselves, but the AvD still represented "Germany". So that must have been the reason why there was stillalways the "German GP" (and not a "West German GP").
Posted 28 January 2013 - 20:50
Thank God for that. 'United Kingdom' is a very silly term and in these days of Scottish Parliaments, Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies and so forth it seems an ever more glaring misnomer....just like the "RAC British Grand Prix" is not named after the United Kingdom.
Posted 28 January 2013 - 23:51
Advertisement
Posted 29 January 2013 - 17:21
Just to get it right: The Federal Republic of Germany was founded on 23rd May 1949 and (as response) the GDR on 7th October 1949.... the creation of the GDR was announced in April 1949, that of the Federal Republic of Germany in May 1949.