Originally posted by ghinzani
Theres laws against being homophobic these days
U sure ?
Mike Beuttler
Started by
tonicco
, Jul 27 2002 16:56
260 replies to this topic
#51
Brian O Flaherty
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 08:13
U sure ?
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#52
Vicuna
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 08:41
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Funny - I'm not particularly a Gilles Villeneuve fan - and never was in period - but could have sworn that in the Spanish and Monaco GPs both I saw the finest and most memorably intelligent process of race-distance blocking in Grand Prix history.
DCN
So who were you a fan of?
#53
Doug Nye
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 11:32
'Fan' to me infers unreasoning, unswerving adoration.... so I haven't been a particular 'fan' of anybody, other than Dennis Compton and Peter May when I was nobbut a lad...
DCN
DCN
#54
Vitesse2
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 11:47
Originally posted by Doug Nye
'Fan' to me infers unreasoning, unswerving adoration.... so I haven't been a particular 'fan' of anybody, other than Dennis Compton and Peter May when I was nobbut a lad...
DCN
Ah, the almost invincible (but a bit turgid) Surrey side of the 50s - unfortunately Ferrari are starting to look like that too. I think even a few Surrey fans were getting bored with winning by the end of that run of titles (six was it?). Can we perhaps compare $chumacher to May and Rubens to Compton? No, perhaps not - no-one ever told Denis to throw his wicket away ..... and May was, of course, a Gentleman, not a Player!
Anyway, about Mike Beuttler .....
#56
David M. Kane
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 14:21
Looks like a pretty respectable time to me!
#57
Dave Ware
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 15:48
I remember a Rob Walker race report in which he referred to one of Beuttler's financial backers as being one of his (Walker's) previous partners in team ownership. I think it was Durlacher. So the guy was probably an enthusiast who sponsored a car for the joy of it. Heck, if I were rich, I 'd do it.
Beuttler's team also ran him in F2, and towards the end of the '73 season they got a BMW engine (the domminant engine that year) and Beuttler posted a 4th and a 3rd in a couple of the year's final races. That result is not average.
My personal preference on blocking is that it can be used on occasion - the last few laps of a race, perhaps. My preference is that drivers take the fastest line they have, and if someone is faster, then they finish behind that person. But I realize that this is an outdated point-of-view.
Dave
Beuttler's team also ran him in F2, and towards the end of the '73 season they got a BMW engine (the domminant engine that year) and Beuttler posted a 4th and a 3rd in a couple of the year's final races. That result is not average.
My personal preference on blocking is that it can be used on occasion - the last few laps of a race, perhaps. My preference is that drivers take the fastest line they have, and if someone is faster, then they finish behind that person. But I realize that this is an outdated point-of-view.
Dave
#58
Bladrian
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 17:16
Originally posted by Dave Ware
But I realize that this is an outdated point-of-view.
Dave
Hey Dave: No need to fret on that score - 'Outdated' is what we DO around here .....
#59
Barry Boor
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 17:19
I think even a few Surrey fans were getting bored with winning by the end of that run of titles (six was it?).
We Surrey fans NEVER get tired of winning.
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#60
Roger Clark
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 19:28
Originally posted by Barry Boor
We Surrey fans NEVER get tired of winning.
you might have done if Denis Compton ever played for you, but Middlesex might have been upset.
#61
Doug Nye
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 20:46
Roger - I was too polite to mention that... and the people who were constantly telling Compton to throw his wicket away were those poor devils the team-mates he so consistently ran-out!
DCN
DCN
#62
Barry Boor
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 20:54
you might have done if Denis Compton ever played for you,
We never needed him!
#63
Vitesse2
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 21:00
Well as a Yorkshire fan who would really expect me to know who played for which team of Southern softies? Len Hutton .... now THERE was a batsman! Not to mention FS Trueman "t'finest fast bowler that ever drew breath" (in his own estimation anyway!). And of course Sir Geoffrey ..... 
And I didn't actually say Compton played for Surrey anyway ....
And I didn't actually say Compton played for Surrey anyway ....
#64
Barry Boor
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Posted 20 August 2002 - 21:06
I suppose we are getting a little off the point here, but then, I heard a rumour that Mike Beuttler visited both Surrey AND Yorkshire during his lifetime...... :
#65
oldtimer
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Posted 21 August 2002 - 02:55
Originally posted by Vitesse2
Well as a Yorkshire fan who would really expect me to know who played for which team of Southern softies? Len Hutton .... now THERE was a batsman! Not to mention FS Trueman "t'finest fast bowler that ever drew breath" (in his own estimation anyway!). And of course Sir Geoffrey .....
And I didn't actually say Compton played for Surrey anyway ....
I once saw a fascinating piece of cricket when one F.S.Truman was definitely making Peter May suck on his breath.
#66
dmj
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Posted 21 August 2002 - 09:25
Do you know what is the difference between cricket and sex? Nothing - I watched both but couldn't understand the rules...
#67
Vicuna
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Posted 21 August 2002 - 09:52
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Nye
[B]'Fan' to me infers unreasoning, unswerving adoration....
Yup, that was the answer I was expecting.
[B]'Fan' to me infers unreasoning, unswerving adoration....
Yup, that was the answer I was expecting.
#68
petefenelon
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Posted 22 August 2002 - 14:03
Originally posted by Dave Ware
Beuttler's team also ran him in F2, and towards the end of the '73 season they got a BMW engine (the domminant engine that year) and Beuttler posted a 4th and a 3rd in a couple of the year's final races. That result is not average.
Dave
An interesting point about Beuttler - he was the brother-in-law of MP, serial near-bankrupt, multiple adulterer and car collector/trader/lover Alan Clark, yet nowhere in either volume of Clark's diaries does he mention his brother-in-law's racing career... Mike's death isn't even mentioned.
Struck me as a little odd when I read Clark's diaries; I haven't yet read Backfire so don't know if he ever mentioned him there but one would normally expect a car enthusiast to at least take an interest in the racing career of someone that close to him... perhaps Mike's orientation didn't sit well with Alan's rather vigorous heterosexuality?
pete
#69
ensign14
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Posted 22 August 2002 - 14:22
Originally posted by petefenelon
An interesting point about Beuttler - he was the brother-in-law of MP, serial near-bankrupt, multiple adulterer and car collector/trader/lover Alan Clark, yet nowhere in either volume of Clark's diaries does he mention his brother-in-law's racing career... Mike's death isn't even mentioned.
I never knew that! Perhaps the bits were edited out by the publisher? The diaries were aimed at politicos rather than motorists.
#70
David McKinney
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Posted 22 August 2002 - 18:18
Beuttler once raced a historic Lago-Talbot GP car that Clark owned. I'm fairly sure it was entered by 'Hon Alan Clark' but someone with access to 1971 race programmes would have a better idea
#71
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 22 August 2002 - 22:17
Originally posted by petefenelon
An interesting point about Beuttler - he was the brother-in-law of MP, serial near-bankrupt, multiple adulterer and car collector/trader/lover Alan Clark, yet nowhere in either volume of Clark's diaries does he mention his brother-in-law's racing career... Mike's death isn't even mentioned.
Struck me as a little odd when I read Clark's diaries;
Yes, yet Mr Clark mentions the late Jack Fairman personally & how old he looked in 1990. That was quite simply the last thing I expected to read!
#72
MCS
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 22:11
Whilst I am aware of his alleged homosexuality, there remain a number of unanswered questions concerning the late Mike Beuttler and my idle curiosity has finally got the better of me.
Recently a list of bereaved ex-Formula One drivers failed to mention him and I have regularly noticed that he is “missing” from all sorts of things where you would expect him to be featured in some way.
Even here on TNF I noticed a picture of Graham Hill’s Embassy Lola a while back in a thread, taken in the Silverstone pits – Mike Beuttler’s March 731 was passing. Needless to say, Beuttler didn’t even warrant a mention. For a car so striking I have always found it strange that it only ever seems to appear in start shots – easily recognisable of course because of its distinctive yellow colour.
So few pictures, so few references.
Let’s be honest, he was no slouch. Witness his performances in F3 and F2. He won races against very strong opposition. In F1 he was clearly on a tight budget and practised and raced accordingly I’m sure.
Even his backers – Clarke, Mordaunt, Guthrie and Durlacher – are a mystery. The last named was involved with Rob Walker for a time as we all know, but what prompted him to get involved with the others? And who were Clarke, Mordaunt and Guthrie (ex-racer Malcolm Guthrie’s brother, I believe) and what prompted their involvement?
Why did Beuttler stop when he did? Had the funds dried up? Had he lost the appetite following Cevert’s fatal accident – he’d often toddle along the pitlane and have a chat with the Frenchman I’ve been told.
What made him return – inevitably in a March - to do the Brands Hatch 1000kms in September 1974?
And what happened after that?
Does anybody really know?!
Mark
Recently a list of bereaved ex-Formula One drivers failed to mention him and I have regularly noticed that he is “missing” from all sorts of things where you would expect him to be featured in some way.
Even here on TNF I noticed a picture of Graham Hill’s Embassy Lola a while back in a thread, taken in the Silverstone pits – Mike Beuttler’s March 731 was passing. Needless to say, Beuttler didn’t even warrant a mention. For a car so striking I have always found it strange that it only ever seems to appear in start shots – easily recognisable of course because of its distinctive yellow colour.
So few pictures, so few references.
Let’s be honest, he was no slouch. Witness his performances in F3 and F2. He won races against very strong opposition. In F1 he was clearly on a tight budget and practised and raced accordingly I’m sure.
Even his backers – Clarke, Mordaunt, Guthrie and Durlacher – are a mystery. The last named was involved with Rob Walker for a time as we all know, but what prompted him to get involved with the others? And who were Clarke, Mordaunt and Guthrie (ex-racer Malcolm Guthrie’s brother, I believe) and what prompted their involvement?
Why did Beuttler stop when he did? Had the funds dried up? Had he lost the appetite following Cevert’s fatal accident – he’d often toddle along the pitlane and have a chat with the Frenchman I’ve been told.
What made him return – inevitably in a March - to do the Brands Hatch 1000kms in September 1974?
And what happened after that?
Does anybody really know?!
Mark
#73
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 22:35
Clarke, Mordaunt, Guthrie were all stockbroker buddies to Mike B.
No idea, what happened later to them. I guess they continued in their trade.
Some googling. revealed a company called Wedd Durlacher Mordaunt & Co , still doing business, not sure if there is any relation though.
Some info to be found here : http://8w.forix.com/beuttler.html
No idea, what happened later to them. I guess they continued in their trade.
Some googling. revealed a company called Wedd Durlacher Mordaunt & Co , still doing business, not sure if there is any relation though.
Some info to be found here : http://8w.forix.com/beuttler.html
#74
Ruairidh
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 22:58
Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Clarke, Mordaunt, Guthrie were all stockbroker buddies to Mike B.
No idea, what happened later to them. I guess they continued in their trade.
Some googling. revealed a company called Wedd Durlacher Mordaunt & Co , still doing business, not sure if there is any relation though.
Some info to be found here : http://8w.forix.com/beuttler.html
Well, their partnership sold itself to Barclays bank at the time of the UK financial market's big bang in 1986 (was it really that long ago?) and became the W of BZW the Barclays merchant bank -stockbroking-stockjobbing combine.........
#75
Mike Lawrence
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:03
Mike died pf AIDS in San Francisco on 29th December, 1988.
#76
Twin Window
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:14
I was always under the impression that they were all gay, but I don't know for sure. Not that it makes any difference to anything.Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Clarke, Mordaunt, Guthrie were all stockbroker buddies to Mike B.
This is the only shot I ever took of the 'Stock Broker Special' as far as I can determine...
#77
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:40
Originally posted by MCS
.....Clarke, Mordaunt, Guthrie and Durlacher – are a mystery. The last named was involved with Rob Walker for a time as we all know, but what prompted him to get involved with the others?
I hesitate to suggest that it was due to homosexual connections, but I recall that Jack Durlacher was always referred to as a friend of Seppi's rather than a backer of Rob Walker.
I think Rob Walker even referred to him as such in his Road & Track race reports... and DSJ as well.
My point here being that Durlacher was backing his Swiss compatriot rather than the Rob Walker stable.
#78
Mac Lark
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Posted 22 December 2004 - 23:55
We actually had quite a discussion about Beuttler going a year or so ago.
F1 Racing also did a feature on him - perhaps as recently as earlier this year.
F1 Racing also did a feature on him - perhaps as recently as earlier this year.
#79
Vitesse2
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 00:15
Not necessarily all, but perhaps some, according to Doug inOriginally posted by Twin Window
I was always under the impression that they were all gay, but I don't know for sure. Not that it makes any difference to anything.
this thread, which is the one Mac referred to.
#81
Twin Window
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 00:48
I've just read the linked thread with a view to merging it with this one. That was until I endured an unexpected lecture on language, plus a 'bonus' education on the 1950s British County Cricket scene.
Perhaps not, then...
(and I still play cricket!)
Perhaps not, then...
(and I still play cricket!)
#82
Mac Lark
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 06:14
Where in the order do you bat?
Are there twin windows on your batters helmet?
OK, I'm done - this is NZ where we all disappear to beaches and lakes for 3 weeks.
That includes me...
Are there twin windows on your batters helmet?
OK, I'm done - this is NZ where we all disappear to beaches and lakes for 3 weeks.
That includes me...
#83
Hieronymus
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 06:33
Was someone not planning to do a book on Beuttler?
I recall seeing an advertisement in a magazine (about a year or so ago) where someone was offering "stuff and memoribila" that was gathered over several years with the idea of compiling a book on the life of Mike B. Not sure where I saw this advertisement, must be either AUTOMOBILE HISTORIQUE or the besieged MOTOR SPORT.
Anyone know something about this?
I recall seeing an advertisement in a magazine (about a year or so ago) where someone was offering "stuff and memoribila" that was gathered over several years with the idea of compiling a book on the life of Mike B. Not sure where I saw this advertisement, must be either AUTOMOBILE HISTORIQUE or the besieged MOTOR SPORT.
Anyone know something about this?
#84
ensign14
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 09:10
"No, I'm the only gay in the Grand Prix village."
Dunno if there's a mystery about Beuttler - how many sources go into detail about his late 70s GP entry equivalents of Brett Lunger (Vietnam vet, so interesting backstory) or Harald Ertl (who was a journalist himself)? They must have had about the same impact on the GP scene - competent, generally underfinanced, occasionally getting top 10 finishes.
OTOH they are not so obscure/slow as to be interesting in themselves, like Frank Dochnal, or the Otto(rino) pair of Stuppacher and Volonterio.
The big mystery to me is his surname - is it pronounced Butler, Byewttler or Burtler?
#85
Hieronymus
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 09:23
Originally posted by ensign14
The big mystery to me is his surname - is it pronounced Butler, Byewttler or Burtler?
I would say it is pronounced Boyt-ler. Some German ancestors here??
Who is the chap on the photo? Beuttler in later life?
#87
David McKinney
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 09:42
Was it Boytler? - he wasn't German (though nor of course was Royteman)
I thought it was pronounced Bewtler
I thought it was pronounced Bewtler
#88
Hieronymus
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 10:06
Correct David, I sure know that Beuttler was not German.
I suggested German ancestors. Not so familiar with British surnames, so I just wonder if this surname is quite common in the UK. Perhaps the "ler" part of his surname brought me under the impression that there must be some German connotation. I find that quite a few German surnames end with "ler". Then again, it may be true of surnames in any other language group...
I suggested German ancestors. Not so familiar with British surnames, so I just wonder if this surname is quite common in the UK. Perhaps the "ler" part of his surname brought me under the impression that there must be some German connotation. I find that quite a few German surnames end with "ler". Then again, it may be true of surnames in any other language group...
#89
David McKinney
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 10:30
What I was trying to say was that, even though the name might have been of German origin, I don't think it was pronounced the German way
#90
Nanni Dietrich
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 10:41
I've seen Mike Beuttler winning at Vallelunga F.2 in Oct. 1971. Two races in a week at the end of the season at the circuit near Rome: first Mad Ronald won (and won the title), for the second race he didn't want to partecipate.
I remember Beuttler's helmet was blue, and at the wheel of a yellow March 712M similar to the yellow car of Ronnie Peterson, he seemed to be Peterson! (if I remember well in the second race he assembled on his March the same noise and wings of Peterson's car, with famous Peterson's sponsor SMOG too!)
In addition, Beuttler was so fast in that two races (4th in the first, winner in second race!) that someone thought he was really Ronnie...
I didn't know he died for AIDS
I remember Beuttler's helmet was blue, and at the wheel of a yellow March 712M similar to the yellow car of Ronnie Peterson, he seemed to be Peterson! (if I remember well in the second race he assembled on his March the same noise and wings of Peterson's car, with famous Peterson's sponsor SMOG too!)
In addition, Beuttler was so fast in that two races (4th in the first, winner in second race!) that someone thought he was really Ronnie...
I didn't know he died for AIDS
#91
Hieronymus
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 11:01
Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
I didn't know he died for AIDS
Slight error here, Nanni.
You can't die for AIDS or for that matter of AIDS, either. One usually die of major physiological malfunction associated with AIDS.
ps. Please also tell this to the president of my country, one Thabo Mbeki. He can't even be convinced that their is a link between the HI virus and AIDS....
#92
Rob29
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 14:15
Boyt-ler is nearest to how I recall it was pronounced by race comentators at the time. Never met the man myself and never knew he was gay until his death was reported. His race career always seemed to be well funded.Originally posted by David McKinney
Was it Boytler? - he wasn't German (though nor of course was Royteman)
I thought it was pronounced Bewtler
#93
RAP
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 14:35
Boyt-ler is how remember commentators saying it too.
#94
David McKinney
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 15:12
OK, I accept that
I never got within 12,000 miles of his racing, and in fact called him 'boytler' in my head.
But I thought I'd heard 'bewtler' from people here in the UK
I never got within 12,000 miles of his racing, and in fact called him 'boytler' in my head.
But I thought I'd heard 'bewtler' from people here in the UK
#95
Peter Morley
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 15:19
Originally posted by David McKinney
OK, I accept that
I never got within 12,000 miles of his racing, and in fact called him 'boytler' in my head.
But I thought I'd heard 'bewtler' from people here in the UK
I thought I'd heard Bewtler (sounding a bit like pewter).
Wasn't Jack Durlacher a relative of Rob Walker's? Is he the person who lent Rob the money to carry on when the Lotus 49 fire destroyed the workshop?
#96
MCS
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 15:25
Originally posted by ensign14
Dunno if there's a mystery about Beuttler
What?!
Nobody seems to know anything about him or his team...
Mark
#97
ensign14
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 15:56
Well, other than he was Alan Clark's brother-in-law and followed the traditional F3-F2-F1 route...his results in the lower formulae justifying his jump up...he got funding from a bunch of stockbroker mates to modify an F2 March to F1 spec and had a couple of mildly successful years before leaving F1...he was nicknamed "Blocker" for his F3 tactics...it's more than we know about, say, Renzo Zorzi.Originally posted by MCS
Nobody seems to know anything about him or his team...
#98
Twin Window
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 16:54
Over the course of the last thirty-five years or so I have never, ever heard his name pronunced any way other than Boyt-ler.
#99
Nanni Dietrich
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 17:12
Originally posted by Hieronymus
Slight error here, Nanni.
You can't die for AIDS or for that matter of AIDS, either. One usually die of major physiological malfunction associated with AIDS.
ps. Please also tell this to the president of my country, one Thabo Mbeki. He can't even be convinced that their is a link between the HI virus and AIDS....
Hieronymus, I don't know if also the president of my country, one Silvio Berlusconi, but I'm sure one or two or three Ministers of his Government can't even be convinced that to be a gay is not an illnes, but a natural thing.
Perhaps a lot of Governments in the world need more piece of informations...
Sorry for the error, I know: I simply translated a sort of idiom.
Back to Mike Beuttler, he drove a March 74S-Ford (as MCS said) at Brands Hatch 1000 Kms 1974, with co-drivers Chris Skeaping and Colin Andrews. And after this race I think he didn't start again.
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#100
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 23 December 2004 - 18:24
Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Mike died pf AIDS in San Francisco on 29th December, 1988.
*sigh* Yet another one. He actually died in Los Angeles, as both his death certificate & his mother (still alive) have testified. He was living in San Francisco but died in a LA hospital. I think this is the 5th time I've had to correct people on this now on TNF.
