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Arrange the following into alphabetical order

Started by Allen Brown , Sep 18 2002 15:46

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33 replies to this topic

#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 15:46

Arthur Owen
Count Carel Godin de Beaufort
Emilio de Villota
Eric van de Poele
Fritz d'Orey
Hermano da Silva Ramos
James Hunt
Johannes Örtner (not sure if this is the correct spelling but I needed an umlaut)
Patrick Depailler
Richard DeJarld
Robert O'Brien

I've sorted this by first name. So how do I sort them if they appear in a directory? By surname, I hear you say. So what are their surnames? Not so easy now is it?

BTW, this isn't a quiz. I really don't know :confused:

Allen

#2 BRG

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 16:36

Well, most are straightforward, surely?

Owen
de Villota
van de Poele
d'Orey
Hunt
Örtner
Depailler
De Jarld
O'Brien

these are all clear surnames or family names, aren't they? Or is there a catch that I haven't seen?

The only two that I am not so sure about are:-

Count Carel Godin de Beaufort - was he just "de Beaufort" or "Godin de Beaufort"? These aristos are always a problem, but I would go with "de Beaufort" if pressed.

and

Hermano da Silva Ramos - I get confused with Spansih and Portuguese names - the Spanish use the first family name generally and only add the last family name for formal documents etc, whilst the Portuguese do it the other way around. I think! So that would make him "Ramos". Probably. One for our Latin American memebers, I think!

#3 mikedeering

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 16:38

Got this from http://backpack.ipsd...alphafiling.htm

Personal Names with Prefixes

Surnames that include a prefix are filed as one unit whether the prefix is followed by a space or
not.

Examples of prefixes are: D’, Da, De, Del, De la, Della, Den., Des, Di, Du, El, Fitz, L’, La, Las, Le, Les, Lo, Los, M, Mac, Mc, O’, Saint, St., Ste., Te, Ten, Ter, Van, Van de, Van der, Von, Von der.

So looks like you just file them by first letter of prefix.

I would go with BRG's list - and take de Beaufort and Ramos.

#4 Leo

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 16:43

I can help with the 'Dutch' names:

-Godin de Beaufort, Jonkheer(*) Carel Pieter Anthonie Jan Hubertus
In general Dutch names are sorted on the 'last' part, neglecting the connecting words as "van", "de". Godin de Beaufort is however a double surname (his father changed it from De Beaufort to Godin de Beaufort).
(*)Jonkheer is his official title in Dutch, I don't know the English translation, but I'm pretty sure it's not Count.

-Poele, Erik van de
Belgians often write the connecting words as one (compare to Franck Vandebroucke [the cyclist]), but not in Erik's case;)

#5 BRG

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 17:04

There you are - I knew I was blundering in where angels fear to tread and that there was more to it than met the eye!

My comments were for listing in an English language context, where prefixes like "de" or "van de" are not common. In a French language listing, you would certainly not put all the "de Somethings" together under the letter "D" or it would be unmanageable. Likewise in Dutch with the "van de Somethings" as Leo points out. And doubtless there are similar conventions in Spanish, Italian etc.

Re the title Jonkheer, I don't think there is a close equivalent in English, so alternatives like Count or Baron tend to get used rather loosely.

#6 RSNS

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 17:11

'Silva Ramos'. If he used both Silva and Ramos it ought to go together, as in Silva-Ramos. The 'da' (Dutch von den, French de la) is not necessarily aristocratic in Portuguese, although aristocrats usually are 'de' Something (they tend to omit it in current conversation). 'Da Silva' is the English equivalent of 'Smith' (Ayrton Senna da Silva) - a very common name; Ramos is 'Strauss' in German and is not aristocratic at all.

All this applies both to Portugal and Brazil. For instance, Mário de Araújo Cabral should be filed under A: Araújo-Cabral (both are aristocratic names) (again, although he is known simply as 'Nicha Cabral').

#7 Wolf

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 17:14

Yeah, I think that's what I would do Leo. When sorting names alphabetically one doesn't take into consideration titles or prefixes; but I would suggest consulting an Encyclopaedia, since it might not be the case with literature in English. BTW, when I wrote my post about databases for research centre thread, the very same thing occured to me also...

E.g.- Rosa, Perdo de la or Mosely, Sir Oswald or Farina, dr. Giuseppe

But with contractions I'm not sure though, my instinct would tell one should put entry d'Orey, Fritz under O not D, between Oran and Osprey...¸Sort of consider it Orey, but write d'Orey. *shrug*

#8 Don Capps

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 17:32

Alphabetize using the last names first -- always, unless specifically told otherwise. In the cases of titles or other similar situations, use the form prevalent in that country or language.

#9 Wolf

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 17:44

OK, to try and answer original challenge, my take would be (BTW, I assumed De Jarld was with space*) :

De Jarld, Richard
Depailler, Patrick
Godin de Beaufort, Count Carel
Hunt, James
O'Brien, Robert
d'Orey, Fritz
Örtner, Johannes
Owen, Arthur
Poele, Eric van de
Silva Ramos, Hermano da
Villota, Emilio de

* AFAIK, sorting should ignore spaces, and all letters should be treated as if they were same case

#10 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 18:24

Originally posted by BRG
Well, most are straightforward, surely?

BRG

A few (Owen, Hunt, Depailler) are in there just so I could see if people were arranging, say, DeJarld with the Ds (i.e. before Hunt) or with the Js. Depailler is there to see if people use the same rule as other names starting 'de' and Owen is there so I can see where d'Orey and Örtner fit in relation.

Originally posted by Wolf
(BTW, I assumed De Jarld was with space*) :

* AFAIK, sorting should ignore spaces, and all letters should be treated as if they were same case

Actually, it is without the space. Richard DeJarld drove a F5000 car in the early days of the formula and, like a lot of Americans, he has anglicised his name by removing the space and capitalizing the D. But he still keeps the capital J. I'm sure his ancestors would have been Richard de Jarld and thus been listed under J. I had a number of other examples, all from the US formulae.

I'm delighted to see the debate so far. One issue that hasn't come up yet is the accent on Örtner's name. Does this put him amongst the Os, at the end of the Os, or at the end of the alphabet? Where would the German phone book put him?

Allen

#11 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 18:26

Originally posted by Wolf
... d'Orey, Fritz

Wolf

Or is it Orey, Fritz d'?

Allen

#12 Wolf

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 18:50

Allen, my ref. books aren't exactly at their prime but I'll try nevertheless...

Allen, Ö is to be treated as O (my, actually quite new, DUDEN dictionary, with newest interventions in German language does the same).

As for d'Orey, I think it should be, as I've said, written d'Orey but treated as Orey. I have fairly old German Lexicon ('34, if I'm pressed to reveal it's age) which for example would list him as Orey d', Fritz. But to me, d'Orey, Fritz looks fare more 'natural' way to spell it... In both cases he's under Os.

#13 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 20:23

Allen,

Simplicate. You've seen my comprehensive filing system. Like 'P' for Photograph - they all go under 'D' for Driver...

DCN

#14 2F-001

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 20:36

I worked in a library for a time (a public one in England) and we shelved the stock in line with the principle outlined by BRG and mikedeering - with the exception that Mc and Mac were all treated as if they were Mac; and (I think) we treated St. as if it was Saint. Not sure what we would have done in a case where St. stood for Sainte...
Can't think what we did with d' or D' because we may not have known what the letter replaced by the apostrophe was.

Not saying that's correct - but that's what we did. We had some stock in other europen languages, but not a great deal.
We did have a large stock of titles in Asian languages (there were/are large Asian communities in Leicester, where I was at the time) : these were a different matter altogether.

I remember raising either the St. or the d' dilemma with the Librarian in a dull moment and I was told that 1) I was a pedant 2) when the public browsed the shelves they'd put them put them back in the wrong place anyway, even if they tried to understand such subtleties and 3) at least half of the public didn't know the alphabet anyway.
A jaded old cynic, he was.

(I was just the smart ar*e school student working evenings - but when I switched to Saturday mornings, they cut down on the proper staff and I eneded up practically running the place - locking-up, counting the money and chucking out the troublemakers - all for 52 pence an hour - I can't believe that the local authority really knew what was happening and I ended up really hating it. I did, however, obtain a number of motorsport biographies and suchlike very cheaply when they sold off old, battered or seldom-borrowed stock. There - I've just about got this back on topic...)

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 21:24

My list would be basically the same as Wolf's, but:
van de Poele, Eric (under the P's)
and
de Villota, Emilio (under the V's)
Poele and Villota being the main part of the surname, and the prefix being a qualifier. If you're going to list them Wolf's way, you would have to say Orey, Fritz d'
Two other differences:
I think DeJarld might have to be treated differently, as I suspect it would appears under the 'D' section in a US telephone directory. Same with DePalma and DePaolo - both under D though, as Allen says, their ancestors would have been under the P's. Question is, in the interests of consistency, should they be under P?
There must be some sort of accepted international ruling on all this
Ramos is different. My understanding is that whereas Spanish names (such as Godia Sales or Rodriguez Larretta) should go under the first name, in Portuguese (and therefore Brazilian, like Ramos), it's the other way around. He should therefore be an 'R'

#16 Gert

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 21:29

I think I have to disagree with Leo
(Leo are you Dutch or Belgian? That could make a difference here :-) I'm Belgian :-)

I would sort "Eric van de Poele" as "van de Poele, Eric" instead of "Poele, Eric van de"

e.g. If you check out our "Yellow Pages" or other phone directories you would always find "Van de ..." classified under "V".

The reason for this is that there are many different ways to write the same name:
lets take the example of our cyclist: Franck Vandebroucke.
The same name exists in different versions: "Vanden Broucke" and "Van Den Broucke", our cyclist would always be found under "V" while the other two would be filed under "B".

Because this is unmanageable - unless you're sure of the correct spelling - prefixes are taken into account when sorting names.

IIRC, in the Netherlands, they follow the system that Leo pointed out, i.e. Eric van de Poele would be found under 'P' - in Belgium it would be 'V'

Gert.

#17 kabouter

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 21:43

Gert, you're correct about the differences between Dutch and Belgian sorting systems. I can use my own name as an example, in phone books I'd be mentioned as: Zee, T.J.J. van der (my parents gave me two more first names that I never use, but they tend to show up on official documents). Note that 'van der' is mentioned after the first names.

#18 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 22:06

Originally posted by Gert
IIRC, in the Netherlands, they follow the system that Leo pointed out, i.e. Eric van de Poele would be found under 'P' - in Belgium it would be 'V'

Oh great! So there is no right answer to my question?

I'm glad 2F-001 brought up the isue of the Scots. My ancient card index has a separate divider for Mc, Mac etc surnames and it is in front of the M divider.

I found an "international standard" on the web that split the name into more components that I had considered. As well as the first name, middle name and last name, it also includes a "last name prefix" which is used to contain "van der", "de" and so on. The examples they use clarify Emilio de Villota and Eric van de Poele but there's nothing to help me with Fritz d'Orey. I know it should go under O really but it seems a lot more difficult when there isn't a space. The rule here won't work for O'Brien.

And where are we on Robert O'Brien? Does the apostrophe get ignored so he's between Obrian and Obrion? Or is he in front of Oaadvark or after Ozz?

I think Richard DeJarld has to follow US rules as he has chosen to Americanise his name. I also accept Wolf's post that Johannes Örtner would go in amongst the Os. Thanks to Leo, the issue of Count Carel Godin de Beaufort was also nicely cleared up and I now know I have his name completely wrong!

But I'm still not clear whether it is Hermano da Silva Ramos or Hermano da Silva Ramos. We seem to have a difference of opinion.

Allen

#19 Wolf

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 22:19

David, methinks it would be odd to put contracted prefix form in the name section, even if we put normal prefixes there. My lexicon has for example Gogh, Vincent van, but Anunzio d', Gabriele.

It has occured to me that the titles are sometimes put behind next comma. Example: Richthofen, Manfred, Frh. v. (that is Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen) as opposed to Goethe, Johann Wolfgang v.. I guess 'von' being part of the title would be the difference, and I dare presume were he not Freiherr, he would be Richthofen, Manfred v..

Somebody in posession of English Lexicon/Encyclopaedia could do us a favour and look those names up (although Rad Baron might not have Freiherr bit, so checking up Eichendorff, Joseph, Frh. v. might be better option).

#20 Gert

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 22:25

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Allen Brown

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gert
IIRC, in the Netherlands, they follow the system that Leo pointed out, i.e. Eric van de Poele
would be found under 'P' - in Belgium it would be 'V'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh great! So there is no right answer to my question?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That depends upon what you really want to do: either follow a standard sorting method (or "invent" one if none exists) or follow the country-specific sorting guidelines.

This last alternative seems to make things more complex: imagine you follow the country-specific ordering method and thus put "van de Poele" under "V" (as he's Belgian). If there's a Dutch driver named van de Poele (never seen one, but the name exists in the Netherlands as well, so who knows...), he would be found under "P"...

Wouldn't it be better to just follow one standard sorting convention and explain the sorting method used somewhere on the webpage?

Otherwise you would have to be familiar with all the naming and sorting convention per country before you could find 'your driver' back?

#21 Don Capps

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 23:26

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Allen,

Simplicate. You've seen my comprehensive filing system. Like 'P' for Photograph - they all go under 'D' for Driver...

DCN

KISS = Keep It Simple Silly!

Whenever you start to get something really involved and complicated, stop and reflect that you can make it so hopelessly hard that mere mortals would never bother since it is a big pain to use....

.....D for Driver, P for Photograph....

#22 jarama

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 23:32

In a spanish phone book the family names with a prefix as de Villota or de la Rosa are ordered by the first letter of the family name, nor the prefix. So, in this cases would be Villota, Emilio de or Rosa, Pedro de la.

About the portuguese family names, the sole difference to my knowledge, is that they show firstly the mother's family name, then the father's. So, if I'm not wrong, Ayrton Senna da Silva would be ordered as Senna da Silva, Ayrton while Hermano da Silva Ramos, would be showed as Silva Ramos, Hermano da. In these examples da Silva is the father's family name (Ayrton) and the mother's family name (Hermano).

Carles.

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 23:47

Originally posted by Leo
I can help with the 'Dutch' names:

-Godin de Beaufort, Jonkheer(*) Carel Pieter Anthonie Jan Hubertus
In general Dutch names are sorted on the 'last' part, neglecting the connecting words as "van", "de". Godin de Beaufort is however a double surname (his father changed it from De Beaufort to Godin de Beaufort).
(*)Jonkheer is his official title in Dutch, I don't know the English translation, but I'm pretty sure it's not Count.

slightly OT: the title "jonkheer" might be translated as "squire".
slightly more OT: "Godin" is Dutch for "goddess". Of course the name "Godin" in Godin de Beaufort was pronounced à la française .... so few people take notice of that. I remember being slightly confused when I read his name in the papers for the first time.

#24 Wolf

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 23:57

I think it would be appropriate to add here that Hungarian names (as Geza Sury has mentioned somewhere in TNF) unlike in most other countries/languages, when properly spelled, are in Surname-Name order*, so I think that should be taken into account when consulting Hungarian sources, or just if one wants to write them properly...

* e.g. Horvath Ferencs- would be Horvath, Ferencs

#25 2F-001

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 00:04

Setting out your chosen conventions up front would seem the best plan: that overcomes some of the need to know the national/linquistic custom, and helps if you don't know whether you're actually looking for, say, a Mc or a Mac, or if the archivist got it wrong.

For what it's worth:
''Hart's Rules'' the 'bible' of the Oxford University Press for over a century (and a standard ref for proof readers and typographers) curiously avoids the matter - but some other OUP publications gives a clue as to their policy.

For eg: their Dictionary of Pronunciations of British Names published for the BBC - which has countless entries you wouldn't think of as 'English' - (don't ask why I own this!) does this...

All puncutation marks and spaces are disregarded. All prefixes are treated as part of the surname (my observations - from here on I paraphrase the intro) Names of the same spelling appear in the sequence of Christian or personal first name, then family name. A title if isolated, precedes all of these. Otherwise names are in strict letter-by-letter alphabetical order. Where the same sequence of letters appears twice, as a single word and as a group of two or more words, the single word is given precedence, eg., Vandyck before Van Dyck.
All names beginning with Mac, Mc or M' are treated as if beginning with Mac. Optional ways of writing that syllable are exemplified in MacGregor, Macgregor, McGregor, M'Gregor (although the book actually lists the first two the other way round).
St. is treated as if spelt out, Saint.

d' D' de De' del de La L' l' le della O' and so forth seem to be treated as written with no regard of what the apostrophes may have stood for.

Would be interesting to know how these conventions came about. (Looking at Mc and St, why is O'Brien not treated as if Ofbrien or whatever?!).

If you wanted to go completely bonkers you could cross reference all the possible interpretations and likely misspellings... no, maybe not...

I worried that I find this interesting!

File everything under M.

#26 2F-001

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 00:14

Originally posted by Wolf

* e.g. Horvath Ferencs- would be Horvath, Ferencs

That's interesting. Something I did at work last week may be wrong...

I assume that Ferenc Szisz (or Szisz, Ferenc) has already been 'anglicized', then?

(Those two points are not related)

#27 BRG

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 09:04

Just out of curiousity, I checked the BT (British Telecomms) Phone Disc that we have on our netwrok here in the office - it is the UK telephone directory. It lists people with prefixes like "de" or "van de" both ways. So you can put in "da Silva" or "Silva" and get the entry either way. So that's not much help.... :

#28 Dironey

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 11:25

I also accept Wolf's post that Johannes Örtner would go in amongst the Os.

That's true in Germany, but in Sweden the letters Å, Ä and Ö are always last in the alphabet. On the other hand we often bunch V and W together.

This thread is giving me some really nasty essay-writing flashbacks.

#29 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 13:02

Originally posted by Dironey

That's true in Germany, but in Sweden the letters Å, Ä and Ö are always last in the alphabet. On the other hand we often bunch V and W together.

This thread is giving me some really nasty essay-writing flashbacks.

That was my recollection from last time I was in Stockholm but I couldn't be sure. Can anyone say how it is done in other countries?

Allen

#30 Don Capps

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 13:26

Be warned that The Karl Oakie & Corktree Reference Guide sez:

Make it easy on yourself and do the way that makes sense to both you and the others mere mortals who will be using the material; if you are consistent, they will catch on and adjust as necessary....

#31 Frank de Jong

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 13:32

Originally posted by Dironey

That's true in Germany, but in Sweden the letters Å, Ä and Ö are always last in the alphabet. On the other hand we often bunch V and W together.

This thread is giving me some really nasty essay-writing flashbacks.

(nasty thought)
Johannes Örtner could be written as Oertner as well in Germany (there was a thread about that some time ago); then, it could occupy yet another position...

#32 TT6

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 14:08

Originally posted by Allen Brown
That was my recollection from last time I was in Stockholm but I couldn't be sure. Can anyone say how it is done in other countries?

Allen

In Finnish we basically have Å, Ä, Ö in the end of the alphabet, however we don't actually have Å's but it's listed because Finland has also Swedish as an official language.

#33 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 16:41

Originally posted by Don Capps
Be warned that The Karl Oakie & Corktree Reference Guide sez:

Make it easy on yourself and do the way that makes sense to both you and the others mere mortals who will be using the material; if you are consistent, they will catch on and adjust as necessary....

Don

I know what you and Doug think of this but there are two steps needed here:[list=1][*]Find out what the right answer is
[*]Decide how much of it to ignore
[/list=1] I'm still on step 1. And one of the first rules of web design is that you don't make your audience adjust to your site. You have to adjust your site to fit your audience.

Allen

#34 Wolf

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Posted 19 September 2002 - 17:18

My feeling on the subject is, presuming the site will be in English but will try to use correct orthography of the names, to sort all the names according to English alphabet (all letters like Ä, Ž &c being stripped of excessive baggage for sorting purposes), otherwise one will not be able to devise a system that makes sense (imagine situation with name order like Äaron, Abt, Äaron- only because first Äaron was German and the latter Swedish). Besides if You use sorting features of some programs, that may even result in completely incorrect order: some algorithms are fallible with certain alphabets (like Croatian) if they sort comparing char #, rather than characters themselves (trust me, I've been there).