Kieft GP car races!

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It's a surprise to me though, Dick, that he's prepared to race a car without any rollover protection...

Is this under the G.E.A.R. organisation RULES....I hope this is not the case , with ADHOC rules...........................

With the greatest of respect....I think some people here need to get out more....people are racing without modern day safety cocoons all around Australia (I have no eye deer what happens overseas).

It is getting increaslingly hard to practice these days (AFAIK) with risk averse circuit owners etc...therefore, GEAR days might not be able to run these "unsafe" cars.

however, in my recent experience, HSRCA and VHRR Meetings still feature vehicles as they raced in the period....I know because every meeting I hear Officials reporting over the Comms...their head is above the roll cage...then someone will correct the caller and say it doesn't have a roll cage!! etc etc ad nauseum.

I can see what you are saying, i really don't know what the answer is.......

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
I can see what you are saying, i really don't know what the answer is.......

The answer is common sense....and letting people pursue dangerous pursuits at their own risk....try and minimise the danger to them, by all means....but let them get on with it

The Kieft GP is back from Oz and raced again at the Goodwood Revival. Greg finished 9th, in between 2 Aston Martin DBR4s…1959 cars! None of the cars in the first 8 positions were as old as the Kieft.

His best lap time in the race was 1:32.276. I can’t find his qualifying time, but two years ago it was 1:34.875. Greg and the Kieft continue to go faster….

Originally posted by David Beard
I can’t find his qualifying time

1:33.371

Concerning the discussion about Kieft green, I recall seeing the 4-cylinder 500cc car in remarkably unspoiled condition and it was indeed a rich 'canal green' shade, while the Beart cars were a more pale metallic green rather akin - in fact - to the colour chosen for the V8 Kieft rebuild and which it wears today. This I think is more the Ecurie Moss colour than what might be identified as a 'Kieft works' colour, and therefore I cannot quite understand why it should sport this shade, unless that's what Cyril Kieft specified during restoration?

DCN

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I cannot quite understand why it should sport this shade, unless that's what Cyril Kieft specified during restoration?
DCN

Yes, that's what seems to be the case, Doug.

I think I'm right in saying that both Stirling and Ken Gregory were directors of Kieft at one stage, so it's quite likely that it is at least a shade of 'Moss green.'

Originally posted by David Beard
[B]The Kieft GP is back from Oz and raced again at the Goodwood Revival. Greg finished 9th, in between 2 Aston Martin DBR4s…1959 cars! None of the cars in the first 8 positions were as old as the Kieft.

His best lap time in the race was 1:32.276. I can’t find his qualifying time, but two years ago it was 1:34.875. Greg and the Kieft continue to go faster….

Really does make you wonder what a Connaught-Godiva might've done....

Well, Peter, I have it on the authority of someone who tested all the Brit GP contenders at the time that the Connaught chassis was the best of the lot...

Originally posted by RobertE
Well, Peter, I have it on the authority of someone who tested all the Brit GP contenders at the time that the Connaught chassis was the best of the lot...

I thought the rear engined Connaught for which the Godiva was intended, was never built???

Chasing this up...

Originally posted by petefenelon


Really does make you wonder what a Connaught-Godiva might've done....

Especially if the engine had the benefit of 2007 technology.

As David said, the rear-engined Connaught was never built.

[i]Originally posted by RobertE[/i
Well, Peter, I have it on the authority of someone who tested all the Brit GP contenders at the time that the Connaught chassis was the best of the lot...

Moss famously tested the Vanwall, BRM and Connaught on the same day at Silverstone in November 1955. His times, on a wet track were Connaught 1:50.3, BRM 1:50.5, Vanwall 1:46.9. This was the old Cooper-based Vanwall, not the Chapman chassis.

We will never know how good the Connaught-Godiva might have been.

What 2007 engine technology is used in the Godiva in this installation, Roger?

I'm afraid I haven't seen the car myself...

Originally posted by humphries

The sports car was sent to Kieft’s Reliance Works, Derry Street, Wolverhampton, where it was fitted out, painted white ( photos in Autosport 13 August 1954 ) and exported to Erwin Goldschmidt. It is said he soon crashed the car. Replacement parts were sent out ( not from EWH ) and the car was rebuilt; only to “disappear”.
John

It seems that the sports car has been found. I don't know the full story as yet....but it looks set to become a stablemate to the GP car!

Err...already I'm not allowed to edit or delete my last post.
The car hasn't been found, but it is to be resurrected. I shall post details in the Kieft sportscar thread...

Hi i have a massive file on the gp car as this gp car was meant to be my inheritance as between myself and my father ,on the sale of the monza lister ,my half of the ownership of that car, i would then own half of the kieft ,Sadly my father could niether read nor write and never wrote it down so i lost my inheritance to bill morris , who bough it of my STEP mother (Forces Beyond my control) due to what my father could not do , every time i see or hear anything about the kiefts i feel a great loss and sadness and pain , i dont expect you knew any of this and its taken me a long time to talk about this without anger, many people do know now ,but not from me but what people have worked out , and found the truth and not the lies , this car was in my family when my real mother was married to my dad, i remember it from the age of 11 .There is so much more to this story which i am writeing at the moment and may post it on this site or under a new thread i am still undecieded ?. martyn chapman .This is only to do with the GP Kieft and nothing to do with Goldschmidt sports car.

Martyn - I sympathise. Only you can judge whether or not this might be the appropriate place to share your story. All I can say is that you will find more like-minded enthusiasts present here than almost anywhere else in the historic and classic car world...

DCN

Originally posted by David Beard


Ron Flockhart and Ken Wharton was the plan, according to aforesaid article.

When I asked Mr Kieft who the intended drivers had been he replied "Ken Wharton and Ron Flockhart". Both of them BRM drivers at the time!.

More info from Greg..

On the GP car thread somebody asked about modern technology in the
Climax engine.
Just for the record, we are using an original crank, original rods
and original pistons!! All the valve gear is 1500 FPF spec from
Crosswait and Gardner. We had a box full of original cams, but I did
cheat with those and used a modern computer dyno simulation to find
the most appropriate cam timing. We did do the carburation the old
fashioned way, at the airfield, doing spark plug readings!!

The origanal engine ,that went to Bill morris when he bought the kieft from my fathers estate,had been alltered considerably by bill lacey,POWER ENGINES LTD , at silverstone circuit ,the man who did all the developement work on this engine when it was secretley running in the big ford gallaxy owned by doc murfield in the early 60s,when i bought this engine ,and all the spares of doc,bill lacey told me that they had restroked the crank,and had taken it out to over 3 litres,they had new liners made ,new 3 litre pistons and they had to also make an oil scimmer to fit in the sump pan ,as the crank was throwing the oil around the inside of the block and causing a baulking afect inside the crankcase,they had new conrods made as well as the origanals where not strong ,and the restroking called for new ones as they had let go numerouse times,scrapping two blocks in the process,when we picked up the spares from bill laceys old workshop there was two blocks,one unmachined,and a van full of spares,includind some broken rods,but no spare 21/2 litre rods at all,there was no carbs,they came with the engine a week later when doc delivered the complete engine from london where he lived,he also told me bill lacey had supplied the iIDA webbers as the origanal solexes were not big enough to cope with over three litres of power,at 21/2 litres the origanal solexes the same as the ones on the show engine would have been adequate,Bill lacey also told me they never fitted fuel injection,the new heads were there but they were all unmachined as they had come straight from climax,Bill lacey thought it would be better to develope the engine on the webbers and this he did.We were going to run the origanal solexes as the V.S.C.C. would not acept IDAs in those days,and we had a set on the show engine,they were in short supply as all the cooper bristol boys had got them for there six port heads,another V.S.C.C.frown is six port heads on cooper bristols.so there you have it there is loads more but i think that is enough for know,ive written a story on how i found the the GODIVAs which i might put on this site one day, Martyn Chapman.

Originally posted by martyn chapman
The original engine, that went to Bill Morris when he bought the Kieft from my fathers estate, had been alltered considerably by Bill Lacey (POWER ENGINES LTD) at the Silverstone circuit.

The man who did all the development work on this engine when it was secretly running in the big ford gallaxy owned by Doc Murfield in the early 60s, when i bought this engine, and all the spares of Doc, bill lacey told me that they had re-stroked the crank, and had taken it out to over 3 litres.

They had new liners made, new 3 litre pistons and they had to also make an oil skimmer to fit in the sump pan, as the crank was throwing the oil around the inside of the block and causing a baulking effect inside the crankcase. They had new conrods made as well, as the originals where not strong, and the re-stroking called for new ones as they had let go numerouse times.

Scrapping two blocks in the process, when we picked up the spares from Bill Laceys old workshop, there was two blocks, one unmachined and a van full of spares, includind some broken rods, but no spare 2 1/2 litre rods at all. There were no carbs, they came with the engine a week later when Doc delivered the complete engine from London where he lived. He also told me Bill Lacey had supplied the IDA Webers as the origanal Solexes were not big enough to cope with over three litres of power, at 2 1/2 litres the origanal Solexes, the same as the ones on the show engine would have been adequate.

Bill Lacey also told me they never fitted fuel injection, the new heads were there but they were all un-machined as they had come straight from Climax. Bill lacey thought it would be better to develop the engine on the Webers and this he did. We were going to run the original Solexes as the V.S.C.C. would not acept IDAs in those days and we had a set on the show engine, they were in short supply as all the Cooper Bristol boys had got them for there six port heads.

Another V.S.C.C. frown is six port heads on Cooper Bristols, so there you have it, there is loads more but I think that is enough for now. I've written a story on how i found the the GODIVAs which I might put on this site one day, Martyn Chapman.

Brilliant background Martyn...but try and draw breath when next you write

(PS please tell us about how you found the Godiva's )

Originally posted by martyn chapman
The origanal engine ,that went to Bill morris when he bought the kieft from my fathers estate,had been alltered considerably by bill lacey,POWER ENGINES LTD , at silverstone circuit ,the man who did all the developement work on this engine when it was secretley running in the big ford gallaxy owned by doc murfield in the early 60s,when i bought this engine ,and all the spares of doc,bill lacey told me that they had restroked the crank,and had taken it out to over 3 litres,they had new liners made ,new 3 litre pistons and they had to also make an oil scimmer to fit in the sump pan ,as the crank was throwing the oil around the inside of the block and causing a baulking afect inside the crankcase,they had new conrods made as well as the origanals where not strong ,and the restroking called for new ones as they had let go numerouse times,scrapping two blocks in the process,when we picked up the spares from bill laceys old workshop there was two blocks,one unmachined,and a van full of spares,includind some broken rods,but no spare 21/2 litre rods at all,there was no carbs,they came with the engine a week later when doc delivered the complete engine from london where he lived,he also told me bill lacey had supplied the iIDA webbers as the origanal solexes were not big enough to cope with over three litres of power,at 21/2 litres the origanal solexes the same as the ones on the show engine would have been adequate,Bill lacey also told me they never fitted fuel injection,the new heads were there but they were all unmachined as they had come straight from climax,Bill lacey thought it would be better to develope the engine on the webbers and this he did.We were going to run the origanal solexes as the V.S.C.C. would not acept IDAs in those days,and we had a set on the show engine,they were in short supply as all the cooper bristol boys had got them for there six port heads,another V.S.C.C.frown is six port heads on cooper bristols.so there you have it there is loads more but i think that is enough for know,ive written a story on how i found the the GODIVAs which i might put on this site one day, Martyn Chapman.

Greg Snape tells me that Bill Morris ended up with 4 engines. One was an unmodified 2.5 litre, one had been taken out to 3 litres and the others to 3.5 litres by an increase in bore size only. (The fifth FPE Climax engine, a 3 litre, is with the Shannon.) There were also loads of spares, including unmachined heads and at least one unmachined block plus the show engine.

Greg wishes it to be clear that the GP Kieft is definitely fitted with the only original 2.5 litre block that remained of the original five, and has the original 2.5 litre crankshaft, original 2.5 litre rods and original
2.5 litre pistons. Also the Webers fitted to the engine are DCNL carbs (not IDAs), which were used on Maserati engines from the mid fifties.

Martyn, weren’t the engines located when Bill Morris told your father Gordon, where they were?

I don't recall a Doc. Merfield Galaxy, but I remember his Anglia from the "Oranges & Lemons" duels with the similar car of Chris Craft, and the V8 "Fraud " Cortina.

david,
no,the engines were not located,I found them,bill morris told me bill laceys tel no ,not dad,im going to put the full story on here shortly under a new thread called lady godiva.
bill morris new nothing of what i was doing at that time it was nothing to do with him,i was told by dad not to tell him until we had bought them,and got them home ,bill was far to busy building his replica ERA at the time,he did quiz me as to why i wanted bill laceys no ,i just said dad wanted it and he passed it on begrudgingly if i remember right,.
as for doc murfield i'm pretty sure it was a gallaxy is doc still around,perhaps someone else remembers,i seem to recall doc saying it was all very secret at the time. martyn.

Originally posted by David Beard
I’m still fascinated by this car….

Did anyone else notice how well it was going in the Goodwood Trophy at the Goodwood Revival this year?
Greg Snape started in 14th place on the grid with a time (1.38.477) somewhat better than he qualified with last year, then went on to drive a splendid race during which he seemed to pass someone on nearly every lap to finish 7th. His best time was 1.35.354, not too far off Jochen Mass’s best lap in the Lancia D50 and faster than Barry Baxter’s best in the TecMec (both in the Richmond & Gordon Trophy).

(Times from the excellent http://www.mst-group.../2004/43621.pdf)

I don’t know where Greg Snape sits in the very wide historic racing driver’s skill spectrum: nor do I know to what extent Jochen Mass just “parades” the D50. But it certainly will always intrigue me as to what the Kieft, or any other Godiva powered car, might have done in the mid fifties ….

Not sure where you are getting this information , and not wanting to decry Greg's terrific efforts in the Kieft

Jochen Mass fastest lap this year 1.29.871
Barrie Baxter fastest lap this year 1.31.473 - last year fastest lap in the 1.29's

I can tell you from a number of years wheel to wheel with Jochen he is not 'just parading'

Originally posted by driverider
Not sure where you are getting this information , and not wanting to decry Greg's terrific efforts in the Kieft

I'll just point out that DAB's post was made in 2004 ;)

Originally posted by Geoff E


I'll just point out that DAB's post was made in 2004 ;)

Yes, my mistake - thought it was a current thread - apologies

Latest results where Kieft was at Goodwood last year 2007

Kieft - fastest lap - 1.33.276
Tec Mec - fastest lap was 1.29.823
Jochen wasn't out in Lancia

Yesterday at VSCC See Red.

In the garage with its sister the Kieft deSoto, and battling with the some scaffolding kitted rivals...

Should anybody like free to download pictures of the Kieft single seater taken at the Revival and See Red 2007 please visit www.picasaweb.google.co.uk/rbmapics

As an aside I interviewed Cyril Kieft for our local radio station when the car first appeared, unfortunately it was not retained after use, but he was most interesting to talk to.

bauble

I regret I wasn't able to get to Mallory to see the Kieft today, but here is a nice shot from one of my Flickr contacts...

http://www.flickr.co...85/in/contacts/

Edited by David Beard, 21 August 2011 - 21:53.

Mallory Park, earlier today.



Conventional "cars going around corners" photos may follow.

Mallory Park, earlier today.



Conventional "cars going around corners" photos may follow.

Did Mk1 utilise the unused bolt holes?

Did Mk1 utilise the unused bolt holes?

This thing looked like a toy compared to the beast which was used to crank up the Indy Roadster ( I was too frightened to photograph it), three 24v batteries in parallel and a starter motor the size of a firkin.

Conventional "cars going around corners" photos may follow.

I'll leave you to do the "..going round corners" bit, Pete, but I''ll volunteer this one from the "going along straights" section.

I am a little upset - I had planned to be flying to England next week to pit crew for the Kieft(s) at Goodwood. A long trip from 'down under' to be sure, but one that I must make one day and why not when I could be helping out in the pits at Goodwood? Unfortunately I start my new job next Monday so the trip had to be put on off. Let's hope I get there one day!

Regards to all enjoying the racing in the UK... my teeth have turned green with envy! The Younger Snape.

Welcome Greg to this forum

And from me too...

One hopes your parents can go when you do and someone helps them take the Eclipse over there!

Greg or Matt ?

Welcome Greg to this forum

I think Snapey is actually Greg's son, Matt, John

Matt is Greg's younger brother.

Hi Matt from Annie Shearer - good to see you joining us

Alan and Dick, that makes more sense out of his post...

Greg, of course, has been there before. Thanks for clearing that up, and dare I say, "Welcome Matt!"?

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 August 2011 - 13:43.

Sorry all - I should have been more explicit, but had no idea there were so many here that I know. This is indeed Matthew, the baby brother or the aforementioned Gregory C Snape. It seems my concerns about adversly affecting the reputation of this site by posting here were groundless - with a Medley, a Willis, a Bell AND a Shearer here already the damage is obviously already done! ROFLMAO

Thank you all for your welcome.

Meanwhile I hear from the UK that the Kieft GP ran very well in it's first event, despite having to do most of one race in top gear due to a gearbox gremlin. Pracitse was limited due to an issue with not having the correct sticker on the drivers helmet, or some such thing.

Edited by Snapey, 28 August 2011 - 09:25.

Apologies, Matthew, for failing to identify you correctly, and for failing to identify your sense of humour: you are more than correct re affecting the reputation of this forum -- a likely lot indeed

So... welcome amongst us

Just noticed that the Kieft GP car is to be sold at Bonhams' Revival auction
http://www.bonhams.c..._release/10886/

Just noticed that the Kieft GP car is to be sold at Bonhams' Revival auction
http://www.bonhams.c..._release/10886/

Indeed it is, together with the second chassis frame, second engine and masses of related components and spares.

DCN

Indeed it is, together with the second chassis frame, second engine and masses of related components and spares.

DCN

And the result?

Nobody with sufficient enthusiasm to take it on as yet, I regret to report...

DCN

[INSERT SNAPE/KIEFT IMAGE HERE]