One of the problems with the records is that often the results issued showed ONLY the " formula" ( ie handicap) results, cars on rallies or trials scoring points out of 100 for each subsidiary event and then these were totalled. This remained so right through to 1940 or thereabouts particularly it seems to me in NSW. In many cases just for a car to climb a hill( some dead straight) was seen to be a great achievement; and David McKinney's list contains a " Sand Pull" ( work it out for yourself!) I am now showing all the ftd times I have and will avoid hcp times..
As for the cars, almost all to the mid 20s were touring cars with a few sports cars thrown in, but it should be noted that at the hillclimbs-in- reliability- trials all carried luggage, passengers, and often ballast( to gain " formula" advantages).Lurking among these from time to time was the occasional racing car perhaps with some road equipment. These included stripped Vauxhalls, Harold Cooper's 1919 Indianapolis Ballot, and the 1909 18 litre Mercedes built for the Semmering Hillclimb. Performance modification was minimal even into the 1930s , even minor mods like no muffler or larger exhaust pipe not only having to be declared but published with the results in the case of NSW Light Car Club results in the mid 30s.It probably wasnt until the Essex ( Wizard Smith)/ Vauxhall( Boyd Edkins) battles of the 1920s that much modification occurred, the lightweighting beginning about then extending to perhaps half a NSWLCC field by the mid 30s. Trade protection allowed local car body builders to flourish so often the imported bare chassis was rushed into competition. And most competitors competed in their normal road cars.It was not until the late 30s in NSW that the local motoring press thought it sufficiently newsworthy to note the quite large number of NSWLCC members having a competition -only car. All of this makes it a bit difficult to distinguish between touring/sports/racing.... but I'll try.
What I'd really like is for someone more versed than I in the Australian hillclimbs of Hans' interest to fill in the gaps and edit what appears here. Where are you, Brian ( and DSM) ?
Older Australian hillclimbs
Started by
Ray Bell
, Apr 10 2003 10:50
238 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#52
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 29 April 2003 - 23:54
John...
I should be able to get to see Barry Forsyth in the next week or so. He'll have sorted out some of the old clippings he has by then and maybe some gaps will be filled thereby...
In the meantime, I've neglected to go to my AMS library on my trip to Harden last week...
I'm sure, by the way, that Clive Gibson will be able to fill in a small number of holes in the 'type of car' department when we get to that point.
I should be able to get to see Barry Forsyth in the next week or so. He'll have sorted out some of the old clippings he has by then and maybe some gaps will be filled thereby...
In the meantime, I've neglected to go to my AMS library on my trip to Harden last week...
I'm sure, by the way, that Clive Gibson will be able to fill in a small number of holes in the 'type of car' department when we get to that point.
#53
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:18
( I'll write " Mt Coot-tha" 100 times....)
1925
14-15/03 ? N * AV Turner Itala
4/04 Artillery N AV Turner Bugatti 59.8
13/06 Artillery N * F Parle Vauxhall
?/08 Heidelberg V A Terdich Bugatti
16-23/09 Hassan's Walls N * H Bartlett Bugatti
Conjola N * F Parle Vauxhall
24/10 Kurrajong N * H Bartlett Bugatti
? ? V A Terdich Bugatti
28-29/11 Robertson(?) N * H Bartlett Bugatti
1926
26-27/02 ? N *( trial to Kiama) F Parle( driver JJ O'Rourke) Vauxhall
? ? N * ( trial to Jenolan Caves) F Parle Vauxhall
1/05 Robertson N * B Edkins Vauxhall
Saddleback N * B Edkins Vauxhall
15/05 Brookvale N * F Parle Vauxhall made the day's first run, then AV Turner's
stripped Type 30 Bugatti the second,only to fatally injure the driver in
a finishing line accident. Hillclimb abandoned.
29/05 ? N *
? Malpas V
? (RACA 24 Hour Trial) Cherry Tree, near Mudgee N * B Edkins Vauxhall
? /10 Coleraine V * A Terdich Bugatti
14-23/10 ( RACA 10 Day Trial) hillclimb 1 N *
Hillclimb 2 N *
4/12 Terry's Hill, near MUlgrave V
1925
14-15/03 ? N * AV Turner Itala
4/04 Artillery N AV Turner Bugatti 59.8
13/06 Artillery N * F Parle Vauxhall
?/08 Heidelberg V A Terdich Bugatti
16-23/09 Hassan's Walls N * H Bartlett Bugatti
Conjola N * F Parle Vauxhall
24/10 Kurrajong N * H Bartlett Bugatti
? ? V A Terdich Bugatti
28-29/11 Robertson(?) N * H Bartlett Bugatti
1926
26-27/02 ? N *( trial to Kiama) F Parle( driver JJ O'Rourke) Vauxhall
? ? N * ( trial to Jenolan Caves) F Parle Vauxhall
1/05 Robertson N * B Edkins Vauxhall
Saddleback N * B Edkins Vauxhall
15/05 Brookvale N * F Parle Vauxhall made the day's first run, then AV Turner's
stripped Type 30 Bugatti the second,only to fatally injure the driver in
a finishing line accident. Hillclimb abandoned.
29/05 ? N *
? Malpas V
? (RACA 24 Hour Trial) Cherry Tree, near Mudgee N * B Edkins Vauxhall
? /10 Coleraine V * A Terdich Bugatti
14-23/10 ( RACA 10 Day Trial) hillclimb 1 N *
Hillclimb 2 N *
4/12 Terry's Hill, near MUlgrave V
#54
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:39
( all ftd winners are sports cars unless noted otherwise on previous post , and this and subsequent posts)
1927
10/03 (RACA Alpine Trial) ? N *
?/03 ? V
21/05 Wheelers V A Terdich Bugatti 42.9
20-21/05 (RACA Trial to Mudgee) N * classes H Bartlett Bugatti
B Clifton Ballot
F Parle Vauxhall
18/06 Robertson N *
22-23/07 ( RACA 23 Hour Trial) N *
19-20/08 ? N * ( Cooma)
?/10 Flinders V
? N * ( trial to Gerringong)
? Q ( Mt Gravatt)
1928
?/01 Spillers Hill, near Lethbridge V
17/03 ( Trial to Avon Dam) N *
21/04 ( Trial to Avon Dam) N *
11-12/05 ( RACA 24 Hour Trial) N *
25-26/05 ( RACA Trial to Mudgee) N *
30/06 Robertson ? N *
?/06 Wheelers V
4/08 Frasers Hill ,near Beveridge V J Day Bugatti Type 37 39s
25/08 Prospect N F Parle Bugatti Type 43
9/11 ZigZag,near Lilydale V W Whitbourn Grahame Paige ( touring car?)
1927
10/03 (RACA Alpine Trial) ? N *
?/03 ? V
21/05 Wheelers V A Terdich Bugatti 42.9
20-21/05 (RACA Trial to Mudgee) N * classes H Bartlett Bugatti
B Clifton Ballot
F Parle Vauxhall
18/06 Robertson N *
22-23/07 ( RACA 23 Hour Trial) N *
19-20/08 ? N * ( Cooma)
?/10 Flinders V
? N * ( trial to Gerringong)
? Q ( Mt Gravatt)
1928
?/01 Spillers Hill, near Lethbridge V
17/03 ( Trial to Avon Dam) N *
21/04 ( Trial to Avon Dam) N *
11-12/05 ( RACA 24 Hour Trial) N *
25-26/05 ( RACA Trial to Mudgee) N *
30/06 Robertson ? N *
?/06 Wheelers V
4/08 Frasers Hill ,near Beveridge V J Day Bugatti Type 37 39s
25/08 Prospect N F Parle Bugatti Type 43
9/11 ZigZag,near Lilydale V W Whitbourn Grahame Paige ( touring car?)
#55
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 04:07
Cherry Tree Hill is very near to Ilford on the road between Lithgow and Mudgee... I don't think there's a junction there, so undoubtedly a main road again. Easier in a trial, of course...
Shame that it might have been in a time-precious trial, however... the views over Rylstone and Kandos at that point are fabulous.
Shame that it might have been in a time-precious trial, however... the views over Rylstone and Kandos at that point are fabulous.
#56
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 04:33
While we're on the subject, what of this picture, John?
#57
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:12
Ray,
Yes, a very historic car on quite a historic hill. The hill is Foleys, running off Mona Vale Road in the northern suburbs of Sydney, the photo taken 13/02/49 Ted Ansell at the wheel.That day the car did 30.74 to George Reed's 22.42 ftd ( see David McKinney's hillclimbs list). Foleys was used in the 1940s-1950s until over-run by suburbia. The car is the Vauxhall A Type (1914 16/20hp 4 cyl 3 litre) affectionately known as " Fifty Bob" after its A210 chassis number -- two pounds ten shillings Australian in pre decimal currency days also totalled fifty shillings or " fifty bob" in the vernacular.In Boyd Edkins' hands( see results on previous and following threads), this car was an immediate post WW1 success straight off the boat . A photo of the car sent by Edkins to Vauxhall designer Laurence Pomeroy Senior in 1921 had as part of the note on the back "20hp Vauxhall A210 Artillery Hill 8/12/1919.Scoring 257 points = 11 points better than her previous record and 41 points better than Essex, 48 points better than 1912/13 type Prince Henry Vauxhall. This car unloaded beat the Hudson record for the hill by 1 sec.,establishing new record of 76 3/5 secs...."Very much part of RACA reliability trials of the period including hillclimbs etc, the car also broke intercity records ( 600 + miles on the ghastly roads of the day) ,raced on Penrith's one mile dirt oval and Maroubra's banked concrete saucer, and was driven by various drivers such as Dick Clarke until Boyd Edkins death in 1930." Fifty Bob" used to live not all that far from me , at Belmont, until then owner Sandy Holmes died in the last decade or so.
And there is a descendant of one of those deeply involved with Boyd Edkins and the founding of the BOYDED car empire who still retains not just photos and paperwork about the great man but his competition clothing too -- hat, goggles ,armbands....
Yes, a very historic car on quite a historic hill. The hill is Foleys, running off Mona Vale Road in the northern suburbs of Sydney, the photo taken 13/02/49 Ted Ansell at the wheel.That day the car did 30.74 to George Reed's 22.42 ftd ( see David McKinney's hillclimbs list). Foleys was used in the 1940s-1950s until over-run by suburbia. The car is the Vauxhall A Type (1914 16/20hp 4 cyl 3 litre) affectionately known as " Fifty Bob" after its A210 chassis number -- two pounds ten shillings Australian in pre decimal currency days also totalled fifty shillings or " fifty bob" in the vernacular.In Boyd Edkins' hands( see results on previous and following threads), this car was an immediate post WW1 success straight off the boat . A photo of the car sent by Edkins to Vauxhall designer Laurence Pomeroy Senior in 1921 had as part of the note on the back "20hp Vauxhall A210 Artillery Hill 8/12/1919.Scoring 257 points = 11 points better than her previous record and 41 points better than Essex, 48 points better than 1912/13 type Prince Henry Vauxhall. This car unloaded beat the Hudson record for the hill by 1 sec.,establishing new record of 76 3/5 secs...."Very much part of RACA reliability trials of the period including hillclimbs etc, the car also broke intercity records ( 600 + miles on the ghastly roads of the day) ,raced on Penrith's one mile dirt oval and Maroubra's banked concrete saucer, and was driven by various drivers such as Dick Clarke until Boyd Edkins death in 1930." Fifty Bob" used to live not all that far from me , at Belmont, until then owner Sandy Holmes died in the last decade or so.
And there is a descendant of one of those deeply involved with Boyd Edkins and the founding of the BOYDED car empire who still retains not just photos and paperwork about the great man but his competition clothing too -- hat, goggles ,armbands....
#58
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:33
You failed, John, to mention the 'Precision Sound Service' van in the background...
Of course, if you'd like to see the signwriting more clearly, here's another angle:
I think this photo is just so full of atmosphere...
I'll post another later, from the Mitcham climb mentioned much earlier. Maybe I'll post two... just see how lucky you are.
Of course, if you'd like to see the signwriting more clearly, here's another angle:
I think this photo is just so full of atmosphere...
I'll post another later, from the Mitcham climb mentioned much earlier. Maybe I'll post two... just see how lucky you are.
#59
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 08:13
I lied...
At Mitcham hillclimb, during the war, Ken Wylie...
Stud Beasley...
McLaren and Halliday in their kiddie car...
And just to show that Tooronga wasn't a hillclimb...
...there was racing, too!
...and just who is this?
At Mitcham hillclimb, during the war, Ken Wylie...
Stud Beasley...
McLaren and Halliday in their kiddie car...
And just to show that Tooronga wasn't a hillclimb...
...there was racing, too!
...and just who is this?
Advertisement
#60
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 08:53
Oh my... look, a lady driver at Rob Roy in 1946...
This is said to be an Austin 7... and it's Joan Derham, I believe. But if anyone knows more, please tell...
This is said to be an Austin 7... and it's Joan Derham, I believe. But if anyone knows more, please tell...
#61
275 GTB-4
-
- 8,274 posts
- Joined: February 03
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 11:38
Originally posted by Ray Bell
I've no doubt you've also been up Kurrajong, Broughton's Pass, Robertson and Wiseman's Ferry as well...
Much of this is so well forgotten... have you been up the road from Agnes Banks to Springwood? The piece of road where Jack Brabham made his road racing debut?
No doubt, I did a lot of exploring up around that area including Newnes, Sofala, Hill End and in more recent times (20-30 years ago!) I had to call into the Rylstone Base Hospital with a badly banged up ankle. The nurse wanted to cut off my motorcycle boot so I said no thanks and rode back to Sydney in a lot of pain and in the pitch dark with meagre off road lighting.
While I'm here, I seem to remember Orange and Mount Canobolas being associated with a speed event - no its not Gnoo Blas (damn what I'd give to remember half the things I've forgotten!!)
#62
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 19:46
Boat races on Lake Canobolas?
Both Towac and Gnoo Blas circuits were in Orange, but on the opposite side of Orange to Mt Canobolas. I've not ever heard of any climbs there... keep on racking that brain!
Both Towac and Gnoo Blas circuits were in Orange, but on the opposite side of Orange to Mt Canobolas. I've not ever heard of any climbs there... keep on racking that brain!
#63
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 30 April 2003 - 23:44
Great photos, Ray, and published here for the first time I suspect. The Bugatti driver in one of the photos looks like Racing Ron Edgerton to me, with probably both Leech brothers Jim and Bill in the former's TT Replica Frazer Nash, and I'd back Joan Derham in Austin 7 Special at Rob Roy: and look at that crowd! As for the Ugliest Dog competition....!
1929
4/04 ? N? V? * class winners A Terdich Senechal
D Clifton Ballot
A Baker Lancia Lambda
F Parle (driver NH Smith ) Vauxhall
? N *( trial to Robertson)
8/06 Mt Victoria N *
26-27/10 Kurrajong N *
29/11 N * ( trial to Robertson)
1930
1/02 Mt Martha V
8/02 Prospect N * WB Thompson Bugatti 27.2
22/03 Kurrajong N *
5/04 Robertson N *
16-17/05 Hassans Walls N *
Tuckers Hill,near Mudgee N * ftd( both) WB Thompson
21/06 Robertson N * BS Middleton Chrysler 1:23.8 ( touring car?)
? Robertson N * WB Thompson Bugatti 1:04.8
16/08 Robertson N * H Bartlett Bugatti 1:03
14/09 Prospect N * J Clements Bugatti 26.4
1929
4/04 ? N? V? * class winners A Terdich Senechal
D Clifton Ballot
A Baker Lancia Lambda
F Parle (driver NH Smith ) Vauxhall
? N *( trial to Robertson)
8/06 Mt Victoria N *
26-27/10 Kurrajong N *
29/11 N * ( trial to Robertson)
1930
1/02 Mt Martha V
8/02 Prospect N * WB Thompson Bugatti 27.2
22/03 Kurrajong N *
5/04 Robertson N *
16-17/05 Hassans Walls N *
Tuckers Hill,near Mudgee N * ftd( both) WB Thompson
21/06 Robertson N * BS Middleton Chrysler 1:23.8 ( touring car?)
? Robertson N * WB Thompson Bugatti 1:04.8
16/08 Robertson N * H Bartlett Bugatti 1:03
14/09 Prospect N * J Clements Bugatti 26.4
#64
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 01 May 2003 - 06:31
1930 cont.
27/09 Terrigal N * O James Chrysler 21.8 touring car
? W Whittakers Hill, near Greenmount
18/10 Kurrajong N * B Ritchie Studebaker 2:37.8 touring car
15/11 Robertson N * JO Sherwood Lea Francis 1:20
22/11 Robertson N * WB Thompson Bugatti 1:19
?/12 Mt Martha V
? Mt Tarrangower
1931
?/02 Newport N A Muston Alvis 12/50 1:17.4
18/04 Robertson N * B Ritchie Studebaker 1:15
3/05 Razorback N H Bartlett Bugatti 1:20 racing car ?
16/06 Wisemans Ferry N * T Field Lea Francis?
22/07 Bayswater V
8/08 Kurrajong N * Mrs JAS Jones driver A Hunter Alfa Romeo 1750 2:21
23/08 Wisemans Ferry N * Mrs JAS Jones Alfa Romeo
? Whittakers W
11/10 Razorback N Mrs JAS Jones Alfa Romeo
24/10 Robertson N * Mrs JAS Jones driver A Hunter 1:07.2
31/10 Whittlesea V
?/ 11 Glenroy V A Terdich Bugatti 18.2
5/12 Wisemans Ferry N * S Stuart Chrysler 1:24 touring car
1932
?/01 Mt Martha V
4/04 Broughton Pass N * WB Thompson Bugatti
27/09 Terrigal N * O James Chrysler 21.8 touring car
? W Whittakers Hill, near Greenmount
18/10 Kurrajong N * B Ritchie Studebaker 2:37.8 touring car
15/11 Robertson N * JO Sherwood Lea Francis 1:20
22/11 Robertson N * WB Thompson Bugatti 1:19
?/12 Mt Martha V
? Mt Tarrangower
1931
?/02 Newport N A Muston Alvis 12/50 1:17.4
18/04 Robertson N * B Ritchie Studebaker 1:15
3/05 Razorback N H Bartlett Bugatti 1:20 racing car ?
16/06 Wisemans Ferry N * T Field Lea Francis?
22/07 Bayswater V
8/08 Kurrajong N * Mrs JAS Jones driver A Hunter Alfa Romeo 1750 2:21
23/08 Wisemans Ferry N * Mrs JAS Jones Alfa Romeo
? Whittakers W
11/10 Razorback N Mrs JAS Jones Alfa Romeo
24/10 Robertson N * Mrs JAS Jones driver A Hunter 1:07.2
31/10 Whittlesea V
?/ 11 Glenroy V A Terdich Bugatti 18.2
5/12 Wisemans Ferry N * S Stuart Chrysler 1:24 touring car
1932
?/01 Mt Martha V
4/04 Broughton Pass N * WB Thompson Bugatti
#65
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 01 May 2003 - 06:54
1932 cont.
?/04 Wisemans Ferry N * J Clements Bugatti 1:12
28/05 Robertson N * J Clements Bugatti 1:02.4 ( later unofficial run WB Thompson Bugatti broke this new record, time unspecified)
31/07 Broughton Pass N * J Clements Bugatti 51.4
24/09 Kurrajong N * WA McIntyre Chrysler Touring car
16/10 Mt Victoria N * J Clements Bugatti 1:18.4
27/11 Broughton Pass N * J Clements Bugatti
1933
?/ 01 Arthurs Seat V GN Pockett Ford A 2:56
18/02 Bar Beach, Newcastle N * F Lusk Ford V8 45s touring car
25/02 Wisemans Ferry N * DF Shepherd Frazer Nash 1:11.2
22-23/04 Robertson N * WB Thompson Riley 1:16
29/05 Waterfall N * WB Thompson Bugatti 43.4
25/06 Broughton Pass N *
29/07 Bar Beach, Newcastle N * WB Thompson Bugatti 37.6
20/08 Franston V
? Toodyay W
16/09 Robertson N * P Robinson Vauxhall 1:13
26/09 Wisemans Ferry N * L Burrows Terraplane 1:15.8 touring car
14/10 Kurrajong N * S Stuart Chrysler 2:34.2 touring car
5/11 Kurrajong N * F Hill Terraplane 2:20.6
Hartley N * F Hill Terraplane 51.6
?/04 Wisemans Ferry N * J Clements Bugatti 1:12
28/05 Robertson N * J Clements Bugatti 1:02.4 ( later unofficial run WB Thompson Bugatti broke this new record, time unspecified)
31/07 Broughton Pass N * J Clements Bugatti 51.4
24/09 Kurrajong N * WA McIntyre Chrysler Touring car
16/10 Mt Victoria N * J Clements Bugatti 1:18.4
27/11 Broughton Pass N * J Clements Bugatti
1933
?/ 01 Arthurs Seat V GN Pockett Ford A 2:56
18/02 Bar Beach, Newcastle N * F Lusk Ford V8 45s touring car
25/02 Wisemans Ferry N * DF Shepherd Frazer Nash 1:11.2
22-23/04 Robertson N * WB Thompson Riley 1:16
29/05 Waterfall N * WB Thompson Bugatti 43.4
25/06 Broughton Pass N *
29/07 Bar Beach, Newcastle N * WB Thompson Bugatti 37.6
20/08 Franston V
? Toodyay W
16/09 Robertson N * P Robinson Vauxhall 1:13
26/09 Wisemans Ferry N * L Burrows Terraplane 1:15.8 touring car
14/10 Kurrajong N * S Stuart Chrysler 2:34.2 touring car
5/11 Kurrajong N * F Hill Terraplane 2:20.6
Hartley N * F Hill Terraplane 51.6
#66
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 01 May 2003 - 12:14
Hartley you say?
Now I asked about the location of this hill... it's the one where Frank Kleinig belly-flopped the McIntyre Hudson when all four wire-spoke wheels broke at once!
It's apparently the road that ascends from Hartley to the road that links Bell and Mt Victoria. Curiously, Harry Galloway now resides in that very area...
Now I asked about the location of this hill... it's the one where Frank Kleinig belly-flopped the McIntyre Hudson when all four wire-spoke wheels broke at once!
It's apparently the road that ascends from Hartley to the road that links Bell and Mt Victoria. Curiously, Harry Galloway now resides in that very area...
#67
Catalina Park
-
- 6,778 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 01 May 2003 - 12:40
That would be Hartley Vale (from the Oilworks to the Darling Causeway)Originally posted by Ray Bell
Hartley you say?
Now I asked about the location of this hill... it's the one where Frank Kleinig belly-flopped the McIntyre Hudson when all four wire-spoke wheels broke at once!
It's apparently the road that ascends from Hartley to the road that links Bell and Mt Victoria. Curiously, Harry Galloway now resides in that very area...
I had heard of River Lett hill being used as a hillclimb and that is the hill out of Hartley towards Lithgow but I had not heard of Hartley Vale.
#68
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 01 May 2003 - 20:58
This is a difficult one to pinpoint, Catalina...
When anyone asks Clive about it, he simply says "George Reed would be the only one who knows where that one was..."
So I asked George and that's what he told me... that it's a road that runs up the climb to that link road between Mt Vic and Bell.
I don't know about any oilworks and I ran out of time to go checking the area last time I worked up there. As for the River Lett Hill, that would seem a definite possibility. Quite a climb... but on the main Western Highway.
When anyone asks Clive about it, he simply says "George Reed would be the only one who knows where that one was..."
So I asked George and that's what he told me... that it's a road that runs up the climb to that link road between Mt Vic and Bell.
I don't know about any oilworks and I ran out of time to go checking the area last time I worked up there. As for the River Lett Hill, that would seem a definite possibility. Quite a climb... but on the main Western Highway.
#69
Catalina Park
-
- 6,778 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 00:55
George Reed would know a lot more than me!!!!!
I have read in a few books about River Lett being used as a climb but I had not heard of the other road but that does not mean that one or the other or even both were used!
The road between Mt Victoria and Bell is called the Darling Causeway and the road from Hartley Vale to the Darling Causeway was built to give road access to the shale oilworks in the valley, at the top of the hill was the Hartley Vale railway station.
It would have made a tight and twisty hillclimb.
I will show you a book about the shale oilworks!
River Lett hill was the main highway but then they used Mt Victoria pass as a climb and it was the same highway!
Now about Mrs Jones that drove the Alfa in John Medleys results, her husband owned the brewery at Lithgow and there seemed to be a lot of hillclimbing in the Lithgow area!
I have read in a few books about River Lett being used as a climb but I had not heard of the other road but that does not mean that one or the other or even both were used!
The road between Mt Victoria and Bell is called the Darling Causeway and the road from Hartley Vale to the Darling Causeway was built to give road access to the shale oilworks in the valley, at the top of the hill was the Hartley Vale railway station.
It would have made a tight and twisty hillclimb.
I will show you a book about the shale oilworks!
River Lett hill was the main highway but then they used Mt Victoria pass as a climb and it was the same highway!
Now about Mrs Jones that drove the Alfa in John Medleys results, her husband owned the brewery at Lithgow and there seemed to be a lot of hillclimbing in the Lithgow area!
#70
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 01:10
Shame on you, Mountain Man!
Everybody knows that it's 'Victoria Pass', not 'Mt Victoria Pass'...
Thanks for the info, and of course, we're talking about roads that are all within a stone's throw of the '40 Bends' Climb of the fifties and sixties... a piece of redundant highway a little nearer to Lithgow.
Everybody knows that it's 'Victoria Pass', not 'Mt Victoria Pass'...
Thanks for the info, and of course, we're talking about roads that are all within a stone's throw of the '40 Bends' Climb of the fifties and sixties... a piece of redundant highway a little nearer to Lithgow.
#71
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 01:17
John – I have plugged your first three instalments of 31 ‘new’ Australian 1904-1914 hill climbs into my working list, which already had 125 other Australian events. I also updated some of those already known hill climbs. Thanks again.
But I have a problem with the following three events, part of your first three instalments.
1912 – November ? N * hcp LW Pye Vauxhall
1913 – March ? V * hcp WR Glasson Talbot
1913 – 18-20/09 ? N * AV Turner Benz
As you can see, the venue is unknown but we have to name those events to make them acceptable for my list, however, this new name would be on a temporary basis only until somebody finds the real ‘animal’. Is the following acceptable to you or would you apply something more suitable?
1912 – November, ?; N.S.W. climb (part of rally or trial)
1913 – March, ?; Victoria climb (part of rally or trial)
1913 – September, 18-20; N.S.W. climb (part of rally or trial)
But I have a problem with the following three events, part of your first three instalments.
1912 – November ? N * hcp LW Pye Vauxhall
1913 – March ? V * hcp WR Glasson Talbot
1913 – 18-20/09 ? N * AV Turner Benz
As you can see, the venue is unknown but we have to name those events to make them acceptable for my list, however, this new name would be on a temporary basis only until somebody finds the real ‘animal’. Is the following acceptable to you or would you apply something more suitable?
1912 – November, ?; N.S.W. climb (part of rally or trial)
1913 – March, ?; Victoria climb (part of rally or trial)
1913 – September, 18-20; N.S.W. climb (part of rally or trial)
#72
Catalina Park
-
- 6,778 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 01:23
Whoops! 
Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass.
There, is that better!
Did you hear that the club in Lithgow applied for a grant from the federal government to fix up and reopen the Forty Bends hillclimb back in 1988. They were going to get the money and then the state government built the highway through the last half of the track!
Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass Victoria Pass.
There, is that better!
Did you hear that the club in Lithgow applied for a grant from the federal government to fix up and reopen the Forty Bends hillclimb back in 1988. They were going to get the money and then the state government built the highway through the last half of the track!
#73
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 04:10
Hans
Your wording is the only sensible approach, so it's fine by me. In time, but not in time for your announced deadline (June ?) I hope to be able to fill some of those gaps: what your original request has done is cause me to extract my list from my original general notes of nearly 50 years ago/ from magazines copied then/from magazines and newspapers copied more recently. The presenting of the list has revealed its inadequacies; and I know for example that I havent yet recorded newspaper reports/results for some significant periods and for about ( ! ) 80% of Australia. Some others need to jump forward and help out. Either way I intend to return to the libraries and fill in some of the gaps. I'll be back on the job on the list tomorrow and I hope my list no matter how flimsy in some help to you in your quest.
Catalina Park
I have a faded photocopy of a photo of Ron Mackellar's nobodied ( bonnet and headlights only) MG L-Type on Hartley Hill in 1933.The road is narrow, dirt, rock- and leaf-strewn, winding, and edged by either cliffs upward or flimsy post-and -rail fences ( if at all ) on the downward side. It would be interesting if you could identify its exact location( assuming the 2003 road bears any resemblance to the 1933 road)
Mrs JAS Jones was indeed married to the owner of the ( Wombat?) brewery , they lived in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, and she and others sported that hardworked Alfa around both localities and elsewhere, that is until she shortened her sporting career by being flung against a pole at Newcastle hillclimb one year.
And just to demonstrate that she wasnt the only one to assault Lithgow area speed limits, George Reed told me about going to Sydney races and sprints in 'The Red Car' Skate 2 and seriously engaged past Wallerawang in battle with Jim Fagan's 4.3 Alvis on more than one occasion
Your wording is the only sensible approach, so it's fine by me. In time, but not in time for your announced deadline (June ?) I hope to be able to fill some of those gaps: what your original request has done is cause me to extract my list from my original general notes of nearly 50 years ago/ from magazines copied then/from magazines and newspapers copied more recently. The presenting of the list has revealed its inadequacies; and I know for example that I havent yet recorded newspaper reports/results for some significant periods and for about ( ! ) 80% of Australia. Some others need to jump forward and help out. Either way I intend to return to the libraries and fill in some of the gaps. I'll be back on the job on the list tomorrow and I hope my list no matter how flimsy in some help to you in your quest.
Catalina Park
I have a faded photocopy of a photo of Ron Mackellar's nobodied ( bonnet and headlights only) MG L-Type on Hartley Hill in 1933.The road is narrow, dirt, rock- and leaf-strewn, winding, and edged by either cliffs upward or flimsy post-and -rail fences ( if at all ) on the downward side. It would be interesting if you could identify its exact location( assuming the 2003 road bears any resemblance to the 1933 road)
Mrs JAS Jones was indeed married to the owner of the ( Wombat?) brewery , they lived in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, and she and others sported that hardworked Alfa around both localities and elsewhere, that is until she shortened her sporting career by being flung against a pole at Newcastle hillclimb one year.
And just to demonstrate that she wasnt the only one to assault Lithgow area speed limits, George Reed told me about going to Sydney races and sprints in 'The Red Car' Skate 2 and seriously engaged past Wallerawang in battle with Jim Fagan's 4.3 Alvis on more than one occasion
#74
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 04:30
That story worries me, John... though I thought it only happened once...
"It was past Mt Lambie, where the road didn't suit my car so well, I saw this red car in my mirror and thought 'I'd better put my foot down,' which I did. But it was still there, so I put my foot down harder... and harder... and then it was right on my tail, and I could see it was an Alvis and (describing this with his best shaky voice and very best shaky hand movements...) it was leaning in the corners and the doors were shaking... we pulled up in Lithgow and had a chat about it."
Of course, after Mt Lambie the road turns from the tightish ess bends to the long sweepers, the short wheelbase Skate didn't have a chance.
But...
This was the car that won the Australian Grand Prix just a couple of years previously, being blown off on a public road by a road car!
As for the Hartley climb, I also have (from Clive...) a photo of the McIntyre Hudson sitting on its belly. The background is kind of indistinct...
"It was past Mt Lambie, where the road didn't suit my car so well, I saw this red car in my mirror and thought 'I'd better put my foot down,' which I did. But it was still there, so I put my foot down harder... and harder... and then it was right on my tail, and I could see it was an Alvis and (describing this with his best shaky voice and very best shaky hand movements...) it was leaning in the corners and the doors were shaking... we pulled up in Lithgow and had a chat about it."
Of course, after Mt Lambie the road turns from the tightish ess bends to the long sweepers, the short wheelbase Skate didn't have a chance.
But...
This was the car that won the Australian Grand Prix just a couple of years previously, being blown off on a public road by a road car!
As for the Hartley climb, I also have (from Clive...) a photo of the McIntyre Hudson sitting on its belly. The background is kind of indistinct...
#75
David McKinney
-
- 14,156 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 18:42
I'm enjoying the Australian list but am having a little difficulty in deciding how to classify those hillclimbs held as part of reliability trials. Should they really be regarded as hillclimbs, in the same way as we consider Shelsley Walsh or Klausen events to be hillclimbs, or were they merely tests within a larger event?
What would put it in the former category for me would be (a) if drivers not contesting the trial in question were permitted to take part in the hillclimb, or (b) if the hillclimbs were regarded at the time as separate events. Would Monday’s Sydney Morning Herald headline Thompson’s new Kurrajong record? Or would it merely mention it in passing as part of its coverage of the trial as a whole?
If neither of these apply, I would personally regard them in the same light as special stages in other rallies (in other words disregard them as stand-alone speed events).
I’d be interested in John’s clarification, and Hans’s view
What would put it in the former category for me would be (a) if drivers not contesting the trial in question were permitted to take part in the hillclimb, or (b) if the hillclimbs were regarded at the time as separate events. Would Monday’s Sydney Morning Herald headline Thompson’s new Kurrajong record? Or would it merely mention it in passing as part of its coverage of the trial as a whole?
If neither of these apply, I would personally regard them in the same light as special stages in other rallies (in other words disregard them as stand-alone speed events).
I’d be interested in John’s clarification, and Hans’s view
#76
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 21:10
I hold a bipartisan kind of view on this, David...
Without knowing the circumstances of the time, we could reckon that it might have been difficult (or impossible) to conduct a hillclimb in the normal manner on these roads. To get police permits etc.
But by including them in the popular trials, then they were able to conduct the events, though the competitors would surely have been able to take only one run rather than the several of a normal competition.
Then again, with this being a possibility, could it have been that the likes of Bartlett and Thompson and I guess we'll come to Sid Cox in their Bugattis only took part in the events because of those hillclimbs?
Without knowing the circumstances of the time, we could reckon that it might have been difficult (or impossible) to conduct a hillclimb in the normal manner on these roads. To get police permits etc.
But by including them in the popular trials, then they were able to conduct the events, though the competitors would surely have been able to take only one run rather than the several of a normal competition.
Then again, with this being a possibility, could it have been that the likes of Bartlett and Thompson and I guess we'll come to Sid Cox in their Bugattis only took part in the events because of those hillclimbs?
#77
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 22:17
1934
29/01 Castlemaine V * L Murphy MG J2 2:25.6
? " 6th annual" Mt Tarrangower" V * GN Pockett Ford 1:56.2
3/03/34 Wisemans Ferry N * S Stuart Chrysler touring car
12/03 Robertson N * FJ Hill driver W Warnerford Terraplane 1:00 touring car
14/04 Waterfall N * N Spark Wolseley Hornet Spl 44s
24/04 Wisemans Ferry N * J Saywell Vauxhall
12/05 Robertson N * N Spark Wolseley Hornet 1:00.8
13/06 Wisemans Ferry N * A Johnson Terraplane 1:11.6 T
26/08 Kurrajong N * A Johnson Terraplane T
22/09 Wisemans Ferry N *
12?/10 Robertson N * AW(Alf) Turner Willys 57.6
30/10 Broughton Pass
16-17/11 Kurrajong N * AW Turner Willys 2:16.2
Hartley N * AW Turner Willys 51.6
4/12 Kurrajong N *
1935
16/02 Waterfall N Max Campbell Rajo Ford 41.2 Racing Car
? Broughton Pass N R Mackellar Fronty Ford 63 R
11/05 Broughton Pass N *
24/05 Kurrajong N F Staughton 1922 GP Sunbeam 29.6 R
16/06 Broughton Pass N R Mackellar Fronty Ford 53.8
13/07 Waterfall N R Mackellar Fronty Ford 38.6 R
1/09 Robertson N * L Burrows McIntyre Hudson 59.8
?/09 Frankston V
2/11 Kurrajong N * WB Thompson Alfa Romeo 2:04.7
3/11 Hartley N * L Tyson Terraplane
29/01 Castlemaine V * L Murphy MG J2 2:25.6
? " 6th annual" Mt Tarrangower" V * GN Pockett Ford 1:56.2
3/03/34 Wisemans Ferry N * S Stuart Chrysler touring car
12/03 Robertson N * FJ Hill driver W Warnerford Terraplane 1:00 touring car
14/04 Waterfall N * N Spark Wolseley Hornet Spl 44s
24/04 Wisemans Ferry N * J Saywell Vauxhall
12/05 Robertson N * N Spark Wolseley Hornet 1:00.8
13/06 Wisemans Ferry N * A Johnson Terraplane 1:11.6 T
26/08 Kurrajong N * A Johnson Terraplane T
22/09 Wisemans Ferry N *
12?/10 Robertson N * AW(Alf) Turner Willys 57.6
30/10 Broughton Pass
16-17/11 Kurrajong N * AW Turner Willys 2:16.2
Hartley N * AW Turner Willys 51.6
4/12 Kurrajong N *
1935
16/02 Waterfall N Max Campbell Rajo Ford 41.2 Racing Car
? Broughton Pass N R Mackellar Fronty Ford 63 R
11/05 Broughton Pass N *
24/05 Kurrajong N F Staughton 1922 GP Sunbeam 29.6 R
16/06 Broughton Pass N R Mackellar Fronty Ford 53.8
13/07 Waterfall N R Mackellar Fronty Ford 38.6 R
1/09 Robertson N * L Burrows McIntyre Hudson 59.8
?/09 Frankston V
2/11 Kurrajong N * WB Thompson Alfa Romeo 2:04.7
3/11 Hartley N * L Tyson Terraplane
#78
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 22:39
Here's an interesting one for you, Roger...
1935
1/09 Robertson N * L Burrows McIntyre Hudson 59.8
Clive Gibson, though he may not be a World Authority on hillclimbs, speaks often about the event in which Les Burrows drove the McIntyre Hudson to the Robertson record. I'm sure that's the event in question...
So it's remembered as a hillclimb, in some quarters at least, more than as a trial.
What would you say, John?
1935
1/09 Robertson N * L Burrows McIntyre Hudson 59.8
Clive Gibson, though he may not be a World Authority on hillclimbs, speaks often about the event in which Les Burrows drove the McIntyre Hudson to the Robertson record. I'm sure that's the event in question...
So it's remembered as a hillclimb, in some quarters at least, more than as a trial.
What would you say, John?
#79
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 23:03
Former Cooper 500 and Formula Junior owner John Mann posed the question to me once" Do you know why early aeroplanes look funny to us?" and gave the answer " Because early aeroplane makers didnt know what an aeroplane was supposed to look like". That observation applies here:early hillclimbs in Australia took a variety of forms and contexts ( including that previously mentioned 'sandpull') not near the centre of our current definition of a hillclimb today. So, while I take David's point and have no trouble agreeing with it , I guess I end up in the same bunch as Ray ie the general principle of 'you run what you brung' applied to both events and vehicles.
There WERE contemporary newspaper headlines re hillclimb and sprint results both inside and outside the trial/rally context. And in some years the annual Canberra speed trials ( along the rural road that is now Northbourne Avenue)were accompanied by a hillclimb on the way from Sydney. Not all necessarily took part, and in one year at least Bill Thompson trucked his two racing cars ( Bugatti 37A, MGK3) to Canberra for the straightline speed events; so the definition of a racing car/ sports car/touring car was no less fraught than the definition of a hillclimb.
And even my comments and those of David and Ray seriously mis-state what many of these hillclimbs were about: if trying to categorize these events, how do we fit events ( and cars) where hills were climbed with 4 passengers/ their luggage/ballast, so that a 1920s Chrysler weighed over 2 tons and a 1930s Austin 7 over 1 ton, yet in the same event 2 years later, cars were stripped to the bare bones and competed as we know hillclimbs today?
In the end, torn between David's stand-alone view and 'run what you brung', I'll use the copout line and suggest it's up to Hans: in the end it's his list...
There WERE contemporary newspaper headlines re hillclimb and sprint results both inside and outside the trial/rally context. And in some years the annual Canberra speed trials ( along the rural road that is now Northbourne Avenue)were accompanied by a hillclimb on the way from Sydney. Not all necessarily took part, and in one year at least Bill Thompson trucked his two racing cars ( Bugatti 37A, MGK3) to Canberra for the straightline speed events; so the definition of a racing car/ sports car/touring car was no less fraught than the definition of a hillclimb.
And even my comments and those of David and Ray seriously mis-state what many of these hillclimbs were about: if trying to categorize these events, how do we fit events ( and cars) where hills were climbed with 4 passengers/ their luggage/ballast, so that a 1920s Chrysler weighed over 2 tons and a 1930s Austin 7 over 1 ton, yet in the same event 2 years later, cars were stripped to the bare bones and competed as we know hillclimbs today?
In the end, torn between David's stand-alone view and 'run what you brung', I'll use the copout line and suggest it's up to Hans: in the end it's his list...
Advertisement
#80
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 02 May 2003 - 23:34
And what of the 1933 (?) event in which Ken McKinney ran his very stripped Austin 7?
"The developers of the industrial estate asked the car club to run a hillclimb there to publicise their estate," he told me. And so he entered to win the 750cc class. But on learning that the supercharged Austin 7 (Clarrie May?) was entered he was despondent... but agreed to let his mechanic (Cyril Dickason? Jack McCutcheon? Truly, I'd have to look up the names of the players, it might have even been Dickason in the supercharged A7) lightweight the car.
It finished up as a chassis and running gear, with an alloy seat out of a Tiger Moth as all that stood between the world and Ken as he drove it.
They forgot, however, to pick up the magneto that Joseph Lucas had agreed to lend them for the weekend, and while the supercharged car was faster (only just!) in the first two runs, Ken felt he had its measure in the third...
"I got a good start, I think I must have ran it right out in first gear, it was really flying, then just a hundred yards from the finish line it went brrrrrrrr...!!"
The points had stuck open!
Anyway, the point is that this was a one-off hillclimb at Frankston. I don't know who the outright contenders were, nor do I think the 94-yo McKinney would.
Is that the event on 20th August in John's list? Probably... who can get at the papers for that Monday?
"The developers of the industrial estate asked the car club to run a hillclimb there to publicise their estate," he told me. And so he entered to win the 750cc class. But on learning that the supercharged Austin 7 (Clarrie May?) was entered he was despondent... but agreed to let his mechanic (Cyril Dickason? Jack McCutcheon? Truly, I'd have to look up the names of the players, it might have even been Dickason in the supercharged A7) lightweight the car.
It finished up as a chassis and running gear, with an alloy seat out of a Tiger Moth as all that stood between the world and Ken as he drove it.
They forgot, however, to pick up the magneto that Joseph Lucas had agreed to lend them for the weekend, and while the supercharged car was faster (only just!) in the first two runs, Ken felt he had its measure in the third...
"I got a good start, I think I must have ran it right out in first gear, it was really flying, then just a hundred yards from the finish line it went brrrrrrrr...!!"
The points had stuck open!
Anyway, the point is that this was a one-off hillclimb at Frankston. I don't know who the outright contenders were, nor do I think the 94-yo McKinney would.
Is that the event on 20th August in John's list? Probably... who can get at the papers for that Monday?
#81
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 03 May 2003 - 04:47
1936
15/02 Waterfall N T Peters Bugatti Type 37 37s R
14/03 Robertson N
19/04 Mount View near Cessnock N * T Peters Bugatti 1:33.6 R
25/07 Waterfall N = F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 37s
= J Fagan MG K3 37s
3/10 Mitcham V J Day Bugatti Ford V8 21.56 R
1937
1/02 Rob Roy V J Day Bugatti Ford V8 37.3s R
29/03 Rob Roy V J Day Bugatti Ford V8 35.42 R
3/04 Waterfall N H Bartlett MG Q 37.2 R
?/05 Mt View N F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 1:35.4
?/06 Mt Clarence W
13/07 Broughton Pass N * F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 51.03
29/08 Waterfall N * F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 35.8
?/09 Albany W
10/10 ? N *(trial to Bathurst)
1938
31/01 Rob Roy V GM Joshua Frazer Nash 35.65 R
13/06 Rob Roy V P Whitehead ERA 31.46 R
15/10 Waterfall N
5/11 Rob Roy V E Gray Male Special 31.51
15/02 Waterfall N T Peters Bugatti Type 37 37s R
14/03 Robertson N
19/04 Mount View near Cessnock N * T Peters Bugatti 1:33.6 R
25/07 Waterfall N = F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 37s
= J Fagan MG K3 37s
3/10 Mitcham V J Day Bugatti Ford V8 21.56 R
1937
1/02 Rob Roy V J Day Bugatti Ford V8 37.3s R
29/03 Rob Roy V J Day Bugatti Ford V8 35.42 R
3/04 Waterfall N H Bartlett MG Q 37.2 R
?/05 Mt View N F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 1:35.4
?/06 Mt Clarence W
13/07 Broughton Pass N * F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 51.03
29/08 Waterfall N * F Kleinig McIntyre Hudson 35.8
?/09 Albany W
10/10 ? N *(trial to Bathurst)
1938
31/01 Rob Roy V GM Joshua Frazer Nash 35.65 R
13/06 Rob Roy V P Whitehead ERA 31.46 R
15/10 Waterfall N
5/11 Rob Roy V E Gray Male Special 31.51
#82
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 03 May 2003 - 07:01
OK mates! I plan to enter all of those rally and trial events into my working list; thereby we are not loosing the data for now. The working list is sorted alphabetically by events, which has helped me to eliminate duplication, a common problem at the beginning due to journalist’s reference of the same event with different names. It is of course possible that errors still exist in this respect or have been newly introduced by me, issuing a new unified language into my list, which is one of the reasons to make this list public and open to criticism to others knowledgeable.Originally posted by john medley
...torn between David's stand-alone view and 'run what you brung', I'll use the copout line and suggest it's up to Hans: in the end it's his list...
The main list – in contrast – has been laid out in chronological order. This method was acceptable with a small list some years back and turns out to be less useful with such an expanded list of over 2000 events now. The year 1926 for example, comprises 133 events at present; a number that might easily rise to 150 by the time the list goes on the net. Although, I have added an index to ease the search for hill climbs, events and names, it crossed my mind to possibly sort this ever-increasing amount of hill climbs even more effectively to provide a speedier solution in finding the various events. How would it be to have the list sorted alphabetically by country and event? It would then be similarly organized as the list of race results by the esteemed Roland King-Farlow in George Monkhouse’s significant book GRAND PRIX RACING Facts and Figures. However, my list would just show the fastest racecar or FTD at some events instead of the first three as in the King-Farlow list. I am seriously contemplating such a change and although it would entail some extra work, it would probably result in a final product of greater practicality.
I am interested in what the general line of thought is amongst you experts. Would you prefer to read through a list in chronological order with many countries mixed up or do you prefer a King-Farlow style of a list?
#83
Catalina Park
-
- 6,778 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 03 May 2003 - 07:03
Originally posted by john medley
Catalina Park
I have a faded photocopy of a photo of Ron Mackellar's nobodied ( bonnet and headlights only) MG L-Type on Hartley Hill in 1933.The road is narrow, dirt, rock- and leaf-strewn, winding, and edged by either cliffs upward or flimsy post-and -rail fences ( if at all ) on the downward side. It would be interesting if you could identify its exact location( assuming the 2003 road bears any resemblance to the 1933 road)
That sounds like the road from Hartley vale up to the Darling Causeway.
The brewery was called "Terrys Brewery" and also known as "The Zig Zag Brewery" if you buy Lithgow Valley spring water you will know why the beer was good! Good water! The brewery became a soft drink factory and after a period of closure is now a spring water bottling plant.Mrs JAS Jones was indeed married to the owner of the ( Wombat?) brewery..
#84
David McKinney
-
- 14,156 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 03 May 2003 - 09:50
Your point regarding an all-inclusive list is accepted, Hans. After all, as John says, it's your list ;)
But I wanted to raise the point before you felt obliged to apply the same definition to European events, and include rally special stages
As regards your point about the merits of an all-inclusive list vs each country, I think the question that needs to be asked is, who's likely to access the list? I believe it will be people interested in specific arenas of motorsport history. If they're looking for involvement by GP teams in the 1920s, for example, they won't want to wade through irrelevant Southern Hemisphere events.
As far as Australian events are concerned, I would go even further and separate them into states. I would take John's advice on that, but certainly by the 1950s (as an uillustration of my point) you had Kleinig, Jack Murray and later Jack Myers winning most of the NSW hillclimbs while Stan Jones, Lex Davison and later Bruce Walton cleaned up in Victoria, and with none contesting more than the occasional event outside his own state. For the same reason my own NZ material is sorted by region - but I guess you need to draw a line somewhere.
But I wanted to raise the point before you felt obliged to apply the same definition to European events, and include rally special stages
As regards your point about the merits of an all-inclusive list vs each country, I think the question that needs to be asked is, who's likely to access the list? I believe it will be people interested in specific arenas of motorsport history. If they're looking for involvement by GP teams in the 1920s, for example, they won't want to wade through irrelevant Southern Hemisphere events.
As far as Australian events are concerned, I would go even further and separate them into states. I would take John's advice on that, but certainly by the 1950s (as an uillustration of my point) you had Kleinig, Jack Murray and later Jack Myers winning most of the NSW hillclimbs while Stan Jones, Lex Davison and later Bruce Walton cleaned up in Victoria, and with none contesting more than the occasional event outside his own state. For the same reason my own NZ material is sorted by region - but I guess you need to draw a line somewhere.
#85
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 04 May 2003 - 01:07
David - thanks for your good suggestion of splitting up the Australia section in its various states. Consider it a done deal. Let me know how to split NZ; in half? I don't know which courses were on what island.
What about the other mates? Did they travel to Spain for the weekend?
What about the other mates? Did they travel to Spain for the weekend?
#86
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 04 May 2003 - 01:48
David – let me think for a while before the splitting into states. What's right for Australia would probably also apply for America and with the multitude of British events split those into England, Scotland and Wales etc. Better hold for a while, because the state is already noted with each event, except with the British hill climbs.
#87
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 04 May 2003 - 04:40
1939
30/01 Rob Roy V F Kleinig Kleinig Hudson 29.72 R
?/o6 Victor Harbour S
7/10 Rob Roy V AI Barrett Alfa Romeo 30.72 R
1940
? Glen Ewin S
23/06 Rob Roy V A Wylie speedway midget 29.95
1941
26/10 Mitcham
.... my list ends there and is incomplete because my original records are incomplete; but as stated previously I will return to the libraries and fill a few gaps, and add them if , Hans, you would like them.
30/01 Rob Roy V F Kleinig Kleinig Hudson 29.72 R
?/o6 Victor Harbour S
7/10 Rob Roy V AI Barrett Alfa Romeo 30.72 R
1940
? Glen Ewin S
23/06 Rob Roy V A Wylie speedway midget 29.95
1941
26/10 Mitcham
.... my list ends there and is incomplete because my original records are incomplete; but as stated previously I will return to the libraries and fill a few gaps, and add them if , Hans, you would like them.
#88
David McKinney
-
- 14,156 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 04 May 2003 - 06:26
Hans,
Points to consider in your ruminations:
For the period you're concerned with you could probably get away with splitting the US into regions (eg, NE, Pacific Coast etc)
UK might require a further breakdown for England: possibly, south (including Shelsley and Prescott), central and north
New Zealand was divided into provinces and although they were abolished as administrative entities more than 100 years ago, they are still used as geographic descriptions. So, Auckland, Wellington, Canterbury etc. I can break the venues down for you if you decide to take that route
In all cases it gets more complicated after 1950 ;)
Points to consider in your ruminations:
For the period you're concerned with you could probably get away with splitting the US into regions (eg, NE, Pacific Coast etc)
UK might require a further breakdown for England: possibly, south (including Shelsley and Prescott), central and north
New Zealand was divided into provinces and although they were abolished as administrative entities more than 100 years ago, they are still used as geographic descriptions. So, Auckland, Wellington, Canterbury etc. I can break the venues down for you if you decide to take that route
In all cases it gets more complicated after 1950 ;)
#89
275 GTB-4
-
- 8,274 posts
- Joined: February 03
Member
Posted 07 May 2003 - 11:11
Early speedway cars/solos ever used in hillclimb events? In any event, some of the cars on this site and the drivers may be of interest ..........
http://www.vintagesp....com/index.html
http://www.vintagesp....com/index.html
#90
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 07 May 2003 - 11:24
A couple of the pics I posted earlier in this thread were speedway cars...
And then there was Jack Brabham, whose start in road racing came at Hawkesbury Hillclimb. He was sent home the first time, being told to fit four wheel brakes before returning. He came back with brakes he reckoned he didn't know if they worked or not (our Jack would have known, right?) and won the next climb.
And then there was Jack Brabham, whose start in road racing came at Hawkesbury Hillclimb. He was sent home the first time, being told to fit four wheel brakes before returning. He came back with brakes he reckoned he didn't know if they worked or not (our Jack would have known, right?) and won the next climb.
#91
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 15 May 2003 - 09:12
John - Please verify correct spelling of this event. 
1933, 20/08 Franston V
1935, ?/09 Frankston V
1933, 20/08 Franston V
1935, ?/09 Frankston V
#92
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 15 May 2003 - 09:21
It's Frankston, Hans... no doubt about that.
#94
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 15 May 2003 - 09:37
That's perfectly all right Hans.
In fact, I'd give you the zip code if you asked...
In fact, I'd give you the zip code if you asked...
#95
Catalina Park
-
- 6,778 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 16 May 2003 - 02:13
Here is a picture I scanned from a book. It shows what an old Australian hillclimb was like!
#96
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 16 May 2003 - 03:16
This, of course, is the climb known as Artillery Hill... up from the weir at Royal National Park near Sutherland, south of Sydney.
#97
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 23 May 2003 - 19:45
Quote:
1948, Kelmscott (WA) - Arthur Collett, MG TC
1949, Turner’s Hill (WA) - Arthur Collet, MG TC
Question: Which Collettt is the correct one?
1948, Kelmscott (WA) - Arthur Collett, MG TC
1949, Turner’s Hill (WA) - Arthur Collet, MG TC
Question: Which Collettt is the correct one?
#98
Ray Bell
-
- 80,259 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 23 May 2003 - 21:56
I think it's with the double 't', Hans, but I can't check until Monday...
John might be online over the weekend, he'd probably know, but he won't be on if there's an Historic race meeting.
John might be online over the weekend, he'd probably know, but he won't be on if there's an Historic race meeting.
#99
john medley
-
- 1,442 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 24 May 2003 - 00:27
Collett, according to Terry Walker's "Around the Houses". By the way, Hans, received your list, havent been able to access it yet...still trying.
Advertisement
#100
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 24 May 2003 - 05:47
Thank you, John.
Sorry to have caused trouble with my list in MS Excel 2000. I could import this file into MS Word 2000 and mail it to you, but then it would become not only over 1 MB large but also difficult to manipulate data within this file.
Sorry to have caused trouble with my list in MS Excel 2000. I could import this file into MS Word 2000 and mail it to you, but then it would become not only over 1 MB large but also difficult to manipulate data within this file.
