Bobby Baird

If both Baird and Spear bought new 255S and were thus the first owners, then that should be recorded or not???

Did Baird buy a new 225S?

Well according to wspr-racing he did. This is exactly repeated on www.classicscars.com.

www.mitorosso.de also has him in 0218ET.......

and this site Ferrari Life only adds to the confusion!

My archive of magazines from the time adds nothing however I'm missing the relevant Autosports for 1952.

Those websites are (a) relatively new and (b) notoriously unreliable
Autosport doesn't help

Fair enough. Plan B: I have just contacted the former librarian and archivist of the Belfast Times, Walter Macauley. Hopefully he might be able to help or put me in touch with Baird's son.

I don't give up easily.

Originally posted by raoul leDuke
I'm think that you are right however apparently Baird used two Ferrari in 1951, a 1950 166 MM Touring Barchetta (0052M) and a 212 Export Touring Barchetta (0136E). He raced 0136E with Jean Lucas to sixth place in the Tourist Trophy at Dunrod on 15th September that year. There is even a painting of him racing against Stirling Moss who won the race on this web site Gerald Browne

All very confusing to me!

And to me! The bicycle leaning against the side of the cottage has both a front and a back mudguard and they are both intact. That's a very rich bike for a very wee cottage. I don't remember ever seeing anything like that at Dundrod. And lax and all as safety standards were, I'm fairly sure that even the people who lived in the houses had to stay behind the garden wall.

More seriously, J.S Moore's little booklet on the history of the Dundrod TT races shows Bobby Baird as having entered a 4litre, 6-cylinder Ferrair, to be driven by himself and one J. M Hawthorn. This, however, suffered axle trouble in practice and failed to start. Hawthorn was then slated to drive a similar car with Eddie Hall, but this car crashed at Budore (not seriously) on the opening lap.

Moore then goes on ' While Jean Lucas was settling a strike at his sardine canning factory, Palmeri, taking the car entered by him away from the course, overturned in a ditch and injured himself more than the car. Baird had this car repaired and was allowed to take over the entry.' This is listed in the entry as 2.5litres (2562cc to be precise) and the other driver shown as L. Chineti. This presumably, is the car in the charming if somewhat idyllic picture and from the foregoing might one infer that Baird did not own it? Not, at least, when he drove it at Dundrod.

Gentlemen
I have been very busy recently and have only looked at this thread this morning. All very interesting about the Ferrari period. Baird's last surviving mechanic died in March this year and he had been of great help to me.
One thing though Walter McAULEY will do well to contact Baird's son as he drowned while on holiday in the Caribean in 1979, all very sad.

Sad news indeed. I had no idea.

Perhaps Walter might be able to come up with other information. Meanwhile are you able to cast any light on the subject?

Hi All,

I am the owner of RA0259 the MG R-Type owned by Bobbie Baird. I have some pictures and copies of programs from Baird racing days in his car. I must say this is a great thread and I hope to see the book soon.

Regards,

Chris Bucknell
Australia

Hi Chris,

Would it be possible to see some pictures of your R-Type please (especially "as found")? I think these are fantastic little cars and they are finally beginning to show their pace at historic events in the UK.

Is there anywhere I can read the full story of your car please ?

Another interesting bit of Baird trivia for you.

On the 23rd July 1949 Goeff McCrea the then owner of RA0259 BEAT Bobbie Baird "in one of his magnettes" with a FTD at the Downhill Hillclimb.

That must have hurt.

Chris

Geoff McRea was the official starter at Kirkistown for many years and lived right on the start line of the Craigantlet hillclimb, on the outskirts of Belfast.

Fred

Just to revitalize this old thread I found a couple of pic on my Autosport collection



Phoenix park Dublino Autosport issue 23-5-52 race record 75.01 mph



chartenthall - Autosport issue 17/10/52




Do you know the Baird race number for Phoenix Park 1952 race?

I am looking also for information concerning Baird's attendance to GP des les Frontieres-Chimay 1952: the car was registered (n.46) but I cannot find any information of the race (retired before racing??)

Did you have any trouble getting copyright clearance to publish those images?

Im sure the correct channels were gone through David !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

G'day all,

I believe the car in which Baird received his fatal injuries was s/n 0280AM, the 1953 MM winner, one of a number of Ferraris he drove in the early Fifties "on loan". Baird also previously drove this Vignale-bodied 340MM in the Leinster Trophy.

Chassis 0280AM was later sold in Italy and survives in a private collection there today.

Other two-seater Ferraris raced by Baird include the 166MM Touring Barchetta (0052M) in 1951, the 275 Touring Barchetta (0032MT) in 1951, 212 Export Touring Barchetta (0136E) in 1951, 212 Export Vignale (0214ED) in 1952 and finally the 250MM with Vignale bodywork (0288MM) in 1953 at Silverstone and Snetterton. Doubt he was the registered owner of any of these.

Cheers,
Damien

Other two-seater Ferraris raced by Baird include the 166MM Touring Barchetta (0052M) in 1951, the 275 Touring Barchetta (0032MT) in 1951, 212 Export Touring Barchetta (0136E) in 1951, 212 Export Vignale (0214ED) in 1952 and finally the 250MM with Vignale bodywork (0288MM) in 1953 at Silverstone and Snetterton. Doubt he was the registered owner of any of these.

Oops, forgot to include the 225 Sport Vignale he raced in 1952 (0218ET) in this list.

Cheers again,
Damien

Being relatively new to TNF I have only just noticed this thread, and I am suprised to note that nobody has mentioned Bobby finishing third in the 1952 Goodwood Nine Hour Race co-driving with Salvadori drivng a 2.7 litre Ferrari, the entrant being listed a C. Caprara.

Programme notes; "Bobby Baird has not long returned from Italy, where he had been watching the preparation of one of the latest 2.7 Ferraris. He is expected to put up a good show on the Ferrari he is handling today. He began his career in 1932 in Dublin, and after racing with Riley and M.G. has taken a great interest in'specials' including the Emeryson."

He was also entered in the 1952 British Grand Prix in a Ferrari, by G. Caprara.

Hi David,

sorry but I have always thought that to take a pictures and then to cut out it form a more than 50 years old magazine (article and pic not originally signed) -regularly bought - was permitted.

If it is wrong, I apologize and this will lead me for the future.

regards,

Gianpaolo

Originally posted by Bauble
Being relatively new to TNF I have only just noticed this thread, and I am suprised to note that nobody has mentioned Bobby finishing third in the 1952 Goodwood Nine Hour Race co-driving with Salvadori drivng a 2.7 litre Ferrari, the entrant being listed a C. Caprara.

The credit for that placing deservedly goes to Salvadori, who was much faster and IIRC drove for much longer

Originally posted by David McKinney

The credit for that placing deservedly goes to Salvadori, who was much faster and IIRC drove for much longer

According to Salvadori in his autobiography, two of Baird's four stints at the wheel were for one lap only, to comply with the regulations.

Even so Baird must take some credit, it was a long, hard race and third place was an excellent result, he must have kept his end up, even though Salvadori would have done most of the driving.
Baird also won the 3.0 litre class in the RAC TT at Dundrod in 1951, finishing sixth overall in the Ferrari of J Lucas. The Autocar report described it as 'a fine effort'. (Scrap book)

My boyhood scrap book also has a picture of Baird in a 4CLT at the Curragh, probably 1951.

This has been said previously, but will say it again...I am certain Baird never drove 225S 0218ET which was sold new to the USA in 1952, raced only in the States and Nassau (1955) between 52 and 56.It has always been in the USA until recently.

I drove it a few weeks ago.

Ed McDonough

This has been said previously, but will say it again...I am certain Baird never drove 225S 0218ET which was sold new to the USA in 1952, raced only in the States and Nassau (1955) between 52 and 56.It has always been in the USA until recently.

I drove it a few weeks ago.

Ed McDonough

This has been said previously, but will say it again...I am certain Baird never drove 225S 0218ET which was sold new to the USA in 1952, raced only in the States and Nassau (1955) between 52 and 56.It has always been in the USA until recently.

I drove it a few weeks ago.

Ed McDonough

Sorry getting confused with the new layout! meant to reply to post 63. Andre Biaumet's Grand Prix Des Frontieres a Chimay shows '#46 Bobby Baird Irl. Ferrari 500 4L 1985 90 x 78 Forfait' which I take to mean did not arrive or non starter

Agree with edmcd (Sorry I don't know how to post quotes...), Baird's 225 was not 0218 but 0214 which was on the name of a Giacomo "Jimmy" Caprara fron Genoa. Car was green and sold in 1953 to Carlos Lostalo in Argentina, still green.

Cheers

Sorry getting confused with the new layout! meant to reply to post 63. Andre Biaumet's Grand Prix Des Frontieres a Chimay shows '#46 Bobby Baird Irl. Ferrari 500 4L 1985 90 x 78 Forfait' which I take to mean did not arrive or non starter

Unfortunately I tried to get a copy of that book with no success: is there a pic of the carin the mentioned book?

I know from several sources that the Baird's Ferrari 500 had been enrolled to that race but I never found confirmation of the trial and race attendance.

Unfortunately I tried to get a copy of that book with no success: is there a pic of the carin the mentioned book?

I know from several sources that the Baird's Ferrari 500 had been enrolled to that race but I never found confirmation of the trial and race attendance.

Baird entered. He was on the entry list with n°46 but did not arrive (forfait). From a picture of the start in Biaumet's book there was only one Ferrari 500, the one of Laurent (Ecurie Francorchamps), n°26.

I met Biaumet some 15 years ago, very nice and charming man. At the time his address was:

André Biaumet
rue Montoyer,67
6510 MORLANWELZ BELGIQUE

Maybe he still has copies of his interesting book and if still living at the same place!

On www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/ferrari.by.serial. number.summary/index.html they suggest that Baird's Snetterton car was the '53 MM winning 340MM Vignale Spider 0280AM but with a caveat, so they are not sure either! I have been unable to find a pic of the car at Snet which was I think an AMOC event.

Regarding the chassis number of Caprara's 225S this is quoted as 0218 in the stats but as 0214 on the above site and I think Ed McD is correct, but I would have thought a proper Ferrari historian should know. I've only got Edition 5 of the Nye/Tanner book out here so I can only go by what I can see on the internet, which of course is none too reliable.

Meanwhile what of Giovanni/Giacomo Caprara of Genoa? Surely somebody can fill in the blanks, please, please!

On www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/ferrari.by.serial. number.summary/index.html they suggest that Baird's Snetterton car was the '53 MM winning 340MM Vignale Spider 0280AM but with a caveat, so they are not sure either! I have been unable to find a pic of the car at Snet which was I think an AMOC event.

Regarding the chassis number of Caprara's 225S this is quoted as 0218 in the stats but as 0214 on the above site and I think Ed McD is correct, but I would have thought a proper Ferrari historian should know. I've only got Edition 5 of the Nye/Tanner book out here so I can only go by what I can see on the internet, which of course is none too reliable.

Meanwhile what of Giovanni/Giacomo Caprara of Genoa? Surely somebody can fill in the blanks, please, please!

No doubt Baird drove 0214ET at Goodwood, I even have him drive the same car at the 1952 Prescott Shelsey Walsh Hill Climb (photo to confirm).
Best
Boudewijn

No doubt Baird drove 0214ET at Goodwood, I even have him drive the same car at the 1952 Prescott Shelsey Walsh Hill Climb (photo to confirm).
Best
Boudewijn

What was the 12 cylinder 2340cc Ferrari Baird drove at Goodwood 29-9-51? It was entered by Scuderia Gustalla and carried the hand-painted registration 165XI.

What was the 12 cylinder 2340cc Ferrari Baird drove at Goodwood 29-9-51? It was entered by Scuderia Gustalla and carried the hand-painted registration 165XI.

The photo on p432 of Autosport October 5th 1951 shows the grid and Baird's Ferrari is just visible. It looks like a barchetta styled car, possibly a 195 S Touring Inter Spider.

On p295 of the 5th edition of the Tanner/Nye book there is a pic of Baird driving a 225 S (0214ET) with the hand painted reg 165 XI under the grill at the Knockagh hillclimb. This is the car he drove briefly at the '52 Goodwood 9 Hours with Roy Salvadori, except that it has a full width screen in the book and a single aero screen at Goodwood.

As an aside Castellotti and Stagnoli/Biondetti finished 2nd and 3rd respectively in the Scuderia Guastella Ferrari 225Ss at Monaco on 2 June 1952.

I thought that registration number looked odd: it would appear to have been a trade plate, since the original XI series (a Belfast mark) had been issued between 1921 and 1928. The "reversed" XI series wasn't commenced until June 1959 and began with 1000XI.

http://en.wikipedia....orthern_Ireland

We're used to seeing trade plates on racing Jaguars of course, but it also means that Baird could have put it on any Ferrari he liked ....

What was the 12 cylinder 2340cc Ferrari Baird drove at Goodwood 29-9-51? It was entered by Scuderia Gustalla and carried the hand-painted registration 165XI.

The car was 166 MM Touring Barchetta #0052M.

The car was 166 MM Touring Barchetta #0052M.

I was reacting to the 2.3 litre description in contemporary reports that failed to mention the model type, being that 166s were usually 2 litre cars in period. Interestingly enough 0052 is listed on one Ferrari site as being the 1950 Le Mans ride for Lord Selsdon/Lucas and on one of the better stats sites it is shown as 0054. Again according to this site 0052 did not have a 2.3 litre engine fitted until 1954.

So if Baird's Goodwood car was a 166 did it have a 2.3 litre motor or did the press get it wrong?

I was reacting to the 2.3 litre description in contemporary reports that failed to mention the model type, being that 166s were usually 2 litre cars in period. Interestingly enough 0052 is listed on one Ferrari site as being the 1950 Le Mans ride for Lord Selsdon/Lucas and on one of the better stats sites it is shown as 0054. Again according to this site 0052 did not have a 2.3 litre engine fitted until 1954.

So if Baird's Goodwood car was a 166 did it have a 2.3 litre motor or did the press get it wrong?

I expected this comment, because an 195 engine was placed only in 1954.
The present owner of 0052M did a body identification test based on a Goodwood photo I found and compared 0052M with the Goodwood car. Many features match 0052M: hoodscoop, wheel arch, marchal lights, and body shape. Most important was the hood latch found only on 0052M. These features together made it a positive ID of 0052M. These conclusions do not match the pressreports regarding the engine size, do they?

Edited by marlondylan, 07 November 2009 - 22:30.

I expected this comment, because an 195 engine was placed only in 1954.
The present owner of 0052M did a body identification test based on a Goodwood photo I found and compared 0052M with the Goodwood car. Many features match 0052M: hoodscoop, wheel arch, marchal lights, and body shape. Most important was the hood latch found only on 0052M. These features together made it a positive ID of 0052M. These conclusions do not match the pressreports regarding the engine size, do they?

Inevitably early '50s British press reports are vague about such things if they are not Jaguar, Aston, Frazer Nash etc. Autopsport quoted 2.3 litres but no model definition as you know, and I was unable to find any definitive list of the Ferraris that Baird drove online, only the 225 S was easily identifiable.

Anyway thank you for confirmation of this car's ID, it is very helpful, although so much time has passed and rebuilds, new bodies, often copied from period photographs and much else has occurred over the decades that I never take anything for granted where old or even quite recent racing cars are concerned.

I expected this comment, because an 195 engine was placed only in 1954.
The present owner of 0052M did a body identification test based on a Goodwood photo I found and compared 0052M with the Goodwood car. Many features match 0052M: hoodscoop, wheel arch, marchal lights, and body shape. Most important was the hood latch found only on 0052M. These features together made it a positive ID of 0052M. These conclusions do not match the pressreports regarding the engine size, do they?

If it helps the car was listed in the programme as having a capacity of 2340cc. Presumably this could have only come from Baird's entry form.

If it helps the car was listed in the programme as having a capacity of 2340cc. Presumably this could have only come from Baird's entry form.

This was why, in the absence of any other detail, that I thought that this was a 195 and not a 166 assuming that the correct cubic capacity had been stated.

Inevitably early '50s British press reports are vague about such things if they are not Jaguar, Aston, Frazer Nash etc. Autopsport quoted 2.3 litres but no model definition as you know, and I was unable to find any definitive list of the Ferraris that Baird drove online, only the 225 S was easily identifiable.

Anyway thank you for confirmation of this car's ID, it is very helpful, although so much time has passed and rebuilds, new bodies, often copied from period photographs and much else has occurred over the decades that I never take anything for granted where old or even quite recent racing cars are concerned.

0052M is one of the few "time capsule" Ferraris in existence that was never restored.

Edited by marlondylan, 08 November 2009 - 13:13.

A couple of days ago I aquired a photostat of the programme for the day that Baird was killed. The relevant information is thus :-

United States Air Force Trophy Meeting at Snetterton Saturday, July 25th, 1953. Organised by the A.M.O.C.

Page 7 lists the Entries for the day.

Car no. 4 Entrant S.A.I.P.A. (Driver W.R. Baird) .. Ferrari F.2 .... 1980cc .. Events 5 & 7

Car no. 5 Entrant S.A.I.P.A. (Driver W.R. Baird) .. Ferrari ......... 4100cc .. Event 4

Event 4 ..1. 40 pm .. A 15 lap scratch race for sports cars over 2000 cc
Event 5 ..2.30 pm .. U.S.A.F. Trophy Race .. 15 lap scratch race for F2 racing cars
Event 7 ..4.30 pm .. A 15 lap scratch race for Formula Libre... Baird was listed to drive both cars in this event, he obviously left his options open!

A couple of days ago I aquired a photostat of the programme for the day that Baird was killed. The relevant information is thus :-

United States Air Force Trophy Meeting at Snetterton Saturday, July 25th, 1953. Organised by the A.M.O.C.

Page 7 lists the Entries for the day.

Car no. 4 Entrant S.A.I.P.A. (Driver W.R. Baird) .. Ferrari F.2 .... 1980cc .. Events 5 & 7

Car no. 5 Entrant S.A.I.P.A. (Driver W.R. Baird) .. Ferrari ......... 4100cc .. Event 4

Event 4 ..1. 40 pm .. A 15 lap scratch race for sports cars over 2000 cc
Event 5 ..2.30 pm .. U.S.A.F. Trophy Race .. 15 lap scratch race for F2 racing cars
Event 7 ..4.30 pm .. A 15 lap scratch race for Formula Libre... Baird was listed to drive both cars in this event, he obviously left his options open!

Is it correct that SAIPA was a client support organisation run by the Ferrari factory? Speculation about legal ownership of cars is a bit pointless at this distance in time but you wonder just what the arrangements were in view of the number and variety of cars that Bobby Baird used.

About 10 years or so ago, the circuit office at Snetterton was presented with a box of 1950s negs and some 60s colour slides, by the widow of local enthusiast & photographer R.W.Pearce, to do with as they wished. A fine bunch of people at Snett and they asked if I could help with identifying them, as they collectively have little knowledge of the circuit's distant past. I scanned a few a while ago, although most of the collection is motorcycle racing. Here are some I did do, and one in particular may shed light on the car Baird was using when he crashed.

18th April 1953 and Bobby Baird on the exit of Coram Curve in the Ferrari 500.


I'm pretty sure this is 25th July 1953. Look at the dents on both wings and bonnet. Could this be Baird's 166MM ( reg 165 X1 ), in the paddock after the accident? The race number ( 5 ) matches the programme entry that day. What do we think?


The same day, Baird's 500 awaits its owner, again the race number ( 4 ) matches the meeting. A sad sight..


The Libre race Baird should have been in. From the left, Rolt, Richardson, Flockhart's ERA and winner Wharton's BRM V16.

Fascinating Andrew. I think that 340 shot can only depict the car after poor Baird had rolled it. If he had only consented to the medic's entreaties to lay still he might, perhaps, have survived since it seems his initial chest injuries were distinctly surviveable... Very sad affair.

DCN

What is the car driectly behind R4D?
Is it the Laystall Cromard? If I'm not mistaken isn't the BHW Special behind it?

Car #9 is Geoff Richardson's RRA-ERA and (I think) the car behind the V16 BRM Mk1 P15 is Leslie Marr's Connaught.

About 10 years or so ago, the circuit office at Snetterton was presented with a box of 1950s negs and some 60s colour slides, by the widow of local enthusiast & photographer R.W.Pearce, to do with as they wished. A fine bunch of people at Snett and they asked if I could help with identifying them, as they collectively have little knowledge of the circuit's distant past. I scanned a few a while ago, although most of the collection is motorcycle racing. Here are some I did do, and one in particular may shed light on the car Baird was using when he crashed.

Many Thanks Andrew: at leat a photo of Baird's 340 Mllle Miglia! Baird also raced a very similarly Vignale bodied 250MM.
The 4.1 is 0280AM, no les than Gianni Marzotto's 1953 Mille Miglia winner, 3 months in arrear.
Soon after the sad Snetterton episode, 0280AM soon went back to Italy, being used by Elio Checcacci in the Tour de France, in September (DNF) and several other Italians later on.
It is well known it has been residing in Modena since 1988, now Restored in its famous 53 MM guise, up to the hand painted race number 547.

Sorry for off Ferrari topic. Bobby Baird finished 6th in 1933 Ards TT in a Riley 9 Brooklands, which my father has owned for 40 years.
Bobby had several Brooklands', one of which is believed to be the Irish Jack Chambers' car that crashed into the crowd in 1936 and ultimately put an end of the Ards TT.

Another late entry:
The Ferrari that Baird raced in the 1951 TT at Dundrod was Jean Lucas's 0136E, but Lucas was not there and Baird drove the three-hour race himself.
There's a good account in John S Moore's little book or booklet The Dundrod TT Races 1950-55.
Baird had entered his 4101cc car w Mike Hawthorn as co-driver, but it had "rear axle" or diff failure in practice and couldn't be repaired for the race. Hawthorn didn't get in enough laps to qualify to start.
Lucas didn't arrive, settling a strike at his sardine canning factory in France. His 2562cc 6cyl was crashed after practice by Palmeri (or Palmieri), probably a stand-in or back-up driver. Moore wrote: "Palmeri, taking the car ... away from the course, overturned in a ditch and injured himself more than the car. Baird had this car repaired and was allowed to take over the entry." He finished 6th overall and won the 2001-3000cc class.
The Lucas car is elsewhere described as a 212 Export Touring Barchetta, 0136E. It was one of the cars he often shared with Luigi Chinetti, and had been entered with Chinetti as the second driver. Chinetti had entered his own 1995cc car with Lucas nominated as No 2 driver, but in Moore's terms it was "not ready" (and probably never appeared).
I'm unclear about the colour, but I think the Lucas car was red rather than French blue. In the fairly modern painting mentioned earlier, it seems a slightly plummish maroon, which can be taken as artist's licence. In a b/w photo of the car in Moore's booklet, it's quite pale. A later photo of a Chinetti-Lucas car in a museum shows it as a conventional Ferrari red. Who knows?
I've just given an old Revell model a coat of scarlet and hope it's not wrong.
Rob B

Sorry for off Ferrari topic. Bobby Baird finished 6th in 1933 Ards TT in a Riley 9 Brooklands, which my father has owned for 40 years.
Bobby had several Brooklands', one of which is believed to be the Irish Jack Chambers' car that crashed into the crowd in 1936 and ultimately put an end of the Ards TT.

This saga of the number of Brooklands Rileys Bobbie Baird owned has dragged on for many years. Where is the evidence to prove he had more than one? If he had "several"what were the chassis numbers or registration numbers, where did he race them?
Simon Thomas