Does somebody have a list of the Australian Gold Star championship rounds from 1957 to 1963 on hand for me, complete with dates and winners? It's an item I can neither find in my library nor - surprisingly - in the net ... Many thanks in advance!
Australian Gold Star 1957-1963
Started by
O Volante
, Dec 19 2002 10:21
110 replies to this topic
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#2
Vitesse2
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Posted 19 December 2002 - 10:52
This is a question that's been asked before. Unfortunately, this seems to be one that no-one's got ...
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=47853
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=47853
#3
David Shaw
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Posted 19 December 2002 - 12:24
I will be very surprised if Ray Bell can't make a very significant contribution to this thread.
#4
Flying Panda
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Posted 19 December 2002 - 12:53
Has anyone thought to send an e-mail to the nice folk at www.formulaholden.com ?
the current Australian Gold Star series.
the current Australian Gold Star series.
#5
David McKinney
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Posted 19 December 2002 - 15:20
There is also of course the 'Tasman' Black Book which, in spite of its shortcomings, is a good starting point
#6
David McKinney
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Posted 19 December 2002 - 20:46
1957
04/03 Australian GP, Caversham (150 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
17/03 Victorian Trophy, Albert Park (100 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
22/04 Bathurst 100
Arnold Glass (3.4 HWM-Jaguar)
Davison retired
16/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (53 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
18/08 Lowood Trophy (53 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
Davison absent
06/10 NSW Championship, Bathurst (100 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
14/10 Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
27/10 Philip Island (48 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
Gold Star Champion: Davison
1958
27/01 South Pacific Championship, Orange (100 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.0 Cooper-Climax T43)
23/02 Victorian Trophy, Fishermen’s Bend (60 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
03/03 Longford Trophy (55 miles)
Ted Gray (4.6 Tornado Special)
05/04 South Australia Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Len Lukey (2.0 Cooper-Bristol)
15/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (1.7 Cooper-Climax T43)
31/08 Lowood Trophy (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (1.7 Cooper-Climax T43)
23/10 Australian GP, Bathurst (115 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
30/11 Melbourne GP, Albert Park (100 miles)
Stirling Moss (2.2 Cooper-Climax T45)
26/12 Philip Island Trophy (56 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
Gold Star Champion: Jones
1959
27/01 South Pacific Championship, Orange (100 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.2 Cooper-Climax T45)
23/02 Victorian Trophy, Fishermen’s Bend (60 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
02/03 Australian GP, Longford (115 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
05/04 South Australia Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Stan Jones (4.6 Maybach Special)
30/03 Bathurst 100
Ross Jensen (2.5 Maserati 250F)
14/06 Lowood Trophy (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
30/08 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
04/10 NSW Championship, Bathurst (100 miles)
Bib Stillwell (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
12/10 Advertiser Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
24/10 Caversham (63 miles)
Len Lukey (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
22/11 Western Port Cup, Philip Island (48 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
13/12 Philip Island (42 miles)
Len Lukey (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
Gold Star Champion: Lukey
04/03 Australian GP, Caversham (150 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
17/03 Victorian Trophy, Albert Park (100 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
22/04 Bathurst 100
Arnold Glass (3.4 HWM-Jaguar)
Davison retired
16/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (53 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
18/08 Lowood Trophy (53 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
Davison absent
06/10 NSW Championship, Bathurst (100 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
14/10 Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
27/10 Philip Island (48 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
Gold Star Champion: Davison
1958
27/01 South Pacific Championship, Orange (100 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.0 Cooper-Climax T43)
23/02 Victorian Trophy, Fishermen’s Bend (60 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
03/03 Longford Trophy (55 miles)
Ted Gray (4.6 Tornado Special)
05/04 South Australia Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Len Lukey (2.0 Cooper-Bristol)
15/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (1.7 Cooper-Climax T43)
31/08 Lowood Trophy (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (1.7 Cooper-Climax T43)
23/10 Australian GP, Bathurst (115 miles)
Lex Davison (3.0 Ferrari)
30/11 Melbourne GP, Albert Park (100 miles)
Stirling Moss (2.2 Cooper-Climax T45)
26/12 Philip Island Trophy (56 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
Gold Star Champion: Jones
1959
27/01 South Pacific Championship, Orange (100 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.2 Cooper-Climax T45)
23/02 Victorian Trophy, Fishermen’s Bend (60 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
02/03 Australian GP, Longford (115 miles)
Stan Jones (2.5 Maserati 250F)
05/04 South Australia Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Stan Jones (4.6 Maybach Special)
30/03 Bathurst 100
Ross Jensen (2.5 Maserati 250F)
14/06 Lowood Trophy (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
30/08 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (53 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
04/10 NSW Championship, Bathurst (100 miles)
Bib Stillwell (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
12/10 Advertiser Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
24/10 Caversham (63 miles)
Len Lukey (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
22/11 Western Port Cup, Philip Island (48 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
13/12 Philip Island (42 miles)
Len Lukey (2.0 Cooper-Climax T45)
Gold Star Champion: Lukey
#7
David McKinney
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Posted 19 December 2002 - 22:17
1960
04/03 Longford Trophy (77 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
18/04 Bathurst 100
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
12/06 Australian GP, Lowood (107 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
04/09 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (80 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
12/10 Advertiser Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Bib Stillwell (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
05/11 Caversham (50 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
11/12 Philip Island
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
Gold Star Champion: Mildren
1961
06/03 Longford Trophy (108 miles)
Roy Salvadori (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
03/04 Craven A race, Bathurst (73 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
11/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (80 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
12/08 Craven A Trophy, Caversham (50 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.4 Cooper-Climax T51)
09/10 Australian GP, Mallala (100 miles)
Lex Davison (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
Gold Star Champion: Patterson
1962
06/03 South Pacific Trophy, Longford (90 miles)
John Surtees (2.7 Cooper-Climax T55)
23/04 Craven A 100, Bathurst
Bib Stillwell (2.5 Cooper-Climax T53)
03/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (80 miles)
Greg Cusack (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
16/09 Victorian Trophy, Sandown Park (58 miles)
Lex Davison (2.5 Cooper-Climax T53)
18/10 Advertiser Trophy, Mallala (50 miles)
Bib Stillwell (2.5 Cooper-Climax T53)
18/11/62 Australian GP, Caversham (122 miles)
1 Bruce McLaren (2,7 Cooper-Climax T62)
Gold Star Champion: Stillwell
1963
10/02 Australian GP, Warwick Farm (100 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.7 Brabham-Climax BT4)
17/02 Lakeside International 100
John Surtees (2.7 Lola-Climax Mk4)
05/03 South Pacific Trophy, Longford (115 miles)
1 Bruce McLaren (2,7 Cooper-Climax T62)
11/03 Sandown Park International (115 miles)
1 Bruce McLaren (2,7 Cooper-Climax T62)
15/09
Victorian Road Race Championship, Sandown Park (75 miles)
Lex Davison (2.7 Cooper-Climax T62)
14/10 Advertiser Trophy, Mallala (50 miles)
John Youl (2.5 Cooper-Climax T55)
01/12 Hordern Tropgy, Warwick Farm (75 miles)
John Youl (2.5 Cooper-Climax T55)
Gold Star Champion: Bib Stillwell (2.7 Brabham-Climax BT4)
04/03 Longford Trophy (77 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
18/04 Bathurst 100
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
12/06 Australian GP, Lowood (107 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
04/09 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (80 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
12/10 Advertiser Trophy, Port Wakefield (45 miles)
Bib Stillwell (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
05/11 Caversham (50 miles)
Alec Mildren (2.5 Cooper-Maserati T51)
11/12 Philip Island
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
Gold Star Champion: Mildren
1961
06/03 Longford Trophy (108 miles)
Roy Salvadori (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
03/04 Craven A race, Bathurst (73 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
11/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (80 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
12/08 Craven A Trophy, Caversham (50 miles)
Bill Patterson (2.4 Cooper-Climax T51)
09/10 Australian GP, Mallala (100 miles)
Lex Davison (2.2 Cooper-Climax T51)
Gold Star Champion: Patterson
1962
06/03 South Pacific Trophy, Longford (90 miles)
John Surtees (2.7 Cooper-Climax T55)
23/04 Craven A 100, Bathurst
Bib Stillwell (2.5 Cooper-Climax T53)
03/06 Queensland Road Race Championship, Lowood (80 miles)
Greg Cusack (2.5 Cooper-Climax T51)
16/09 Victorian Trophy, Sandown Park (58 miles)
Lex Davison (2.5 Cooper-Climax T53)
18/10 Advertiser Trophy, Mallala (50 miles)
Bib Stillwell (2.5 Cooper-Climax T53)
18/11/62 Australian GP, Caversham (122 miles)
1 Bruce McLaren (2,7 Cooper-Climax T62)
Gold Star Champion: Stillwell
1963
10/02 Australian GP, Warwick Farm (100 miles)
Jack Brabham (2.7 Brabham-Climax BT4)
17/02 Lakeside International 100
John Surtees (2.7 Lola-Climax Mk4)
05/03 South Pacific Trophy, Longford (115 miles)
1 Bruce McLaren (2,7 Cooper-Climax T62)
11/03 Sandown Park International (115 miles)
1 Bruce McLaren (2,7 Cooper-Climax T62)
15/09
Victorian Road Race Championship, Sandown Park (75 miles)
Lex Davison (2.7 Cooper-Climax T62)
14/10 Advertiser Trophy, Mallala (50 miles)
John Youl (2.5 Cooper-Climax T55)
01/12 Hordern Tropgy, Warwick Farm (75 miles)
John Youl (2.5 Cooper-Climax T55)
Gold Star Champion: Bib Stillwell (2.7 Brabham-Climax BT4)
#8
Flying Panda
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Posted 20 December 2002 - 12:35
Thanks for that Dave ! 
#9
mgracer
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Posted 20 December 2002 - 15:37
Have you checked out the Australian Race and Championships Archive ? It is worth a look if you are into the history of racing in this country (history meaning right up to just the other month 
)
)
#10
O Volante
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Posted 22 December 2002 - 11:28
Ah, these other commitments again ... David, you have surpassed yourself again: Many. many, many thanks! 
But dear Australian TNFers, had it to be a New Zealander who supplied this info?
But dear Australian TNFers, had it to be a New Zealander who supplied this info?
#11
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 December 2002 - 20:11
A Kiwi indeed... but one who has the magazine reports for the period.
I would have done this if I had them but there is a gulf in my reference material from 1951 to 1963.
But a couple of points, both to avoid continuing errors and to pursue accuracy...
1. Only drivers holding Australian racing licences (issued by the CAMS) were eligible for points. This means that Surtees and McLaren didn't win any Gold Star points for their victories at Longford and Caversham, Sandown or Lakeside. I don't know, but it is possible that Jensen did obtain a licence (as Jim Palmer tried to during the sixties and couldn't because of his monocular vision) and thus score the points.
2. The race cited as having counted at Fishermens Bend and Sandown was the 'Victoria Trophy' ... a small point, but if anyone is researching in the future it might make a difference.
3. Unfortunately there's little to be found on the site mentioned by mgracer, merely a list of series winners, including the wrong car the first year!
4. Phillip Island is spelled this way, not Philip Island.
David, are you sure that Patterson had a 2.4 at Caversham in 1961? I've not come across that before... and wasn't Mildren's engine a 2.6 or larger during 1960?
I would have done this if I had them but there is a gulf in my reference material from 1951 to 1963.
But a couple of points, both to avoid continuing errors and to pursue accuracy...
1. Only drivers holding Australian racing licences (issued by the CAMS) were eligible for points. This means that Surtees and McLaren didn't win any Gold Star points for their victories at Longford and Caversham, Sandown or Lakeside. I don't know, but it is possible that Jensen did obtain a licence (as Jim Palmer tried to during the sixties and couldn't because of his monocular vision) and thus score the points.
2. The race cited as having counted at Fishermens Bend and Sandown was the 'Victoria Trophy' ... a small point, but if anyone is researching in the future it might make a difference.
3. Unfortunately there's little to be found on the site mentioned by mgracer, merely a list of series winners, including the wrong car the first year!
4. Phillip Island is spelled this way, not Philip Island.
David, are you sure that Patterson had a 2.4 at Caversham in 1961? I've not come across that before... and wasn't Mildren's engine a 2.6 or larger during 1960?
#12
David McKinney
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Posted 22 December 2002 - 20:51
1. OV asked for a list of winners of Gold Star races - that's what he got. A list of maximum points-scorers would have been slightly different. I don't think Jensen had a CAMS licence (or got points)
2. A very interesting point, and one which could require further study. I have always called it the Victoria Trophy, but noticed recently that a number of publications added an 'n', so presumed I must have been wrong. Maybe I wasn't
4. Same with PI - I always spelt it with two 'l's, then saw it in a number of places with one. A quick check now suggests that, yes, it should be Phillip Island. Apologies to all concerned
I am not 100% sure about Patto's engine size in that race, though I'm fairly certain he ran a (unique?) 2.4 about that time. Mildren's engine was 2.5 in 1960, AFAIK, but bigger in 1961
2. A very interesting point, and one which could require further study. I have always called it the Victoria Trophy, but noticed recently that a number of publications added an 'n', so presumed I must have been wrong. Maybe I wasn't
4. Same with PI - I always spelt it with two 'l's, then saw it in a number of places with one. A quick check now suggests that, yes, it should be Phillip Island. Apologies to all concerned
I am not 100% sure about Patto's engine size in that race, though I'm fairly certain he ran a (unique?) 2.4 about that time. Mildren's engine was 2.5 in 1960, AFAIK, but bigger in 1961
#13
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 December 2002 - 21:45
On points 1 and 2, David, I think we should just assume you and I are/were both correct and stick to 'Victoria' and 'Phillip' and tell the rest of the world to file in behind us.
Mildren's engine size came under question because I knew he had put the engine into the Mildren Maserati sports car in 64/65 and I recall programmes showing it as larger, 2.6 or 2.7, I think. Franky lunched that pretty well at Lakeside that November day when it should have run away with the ATT, but now it's back in the rebuilt Cooper and said to be the original 2489cc.
You might well be right about Patto's, I was just asking for some reference on it. Patto could well have had a unique size because he had his own crankshaft made.
But in July, 1961, he crashed his 'second string 2.2 Cooper' according to Graham Howard in the AGP book. By October he was running a 2.5.
Strangely, John Medley doesn't show his engine capacity at Bathurst, but does mention another '2.4'... 2368cc for Stan Jones. But he doesn't mention anything about it in the text. And in the racing, Patterson was fastest of all down the straight...
Mildren's engine size came under question because I knew he had put the engine into the Mildren Maserati sports car in 64/65 and I recall programmes showing it as larger, 2.6 or 2.7, I think. Franky lunched that pretty well at Lakeside that November day when it should have run away with the ATT, but now it's back in the rebuilt Cooper and said to be the original 2489cc.
You might well be right about Patto's, I was just asking for some reference on it. Patto could well have had a unique size because he had his own crankshaft made.
But in July, 1961, he crashed his 'second string 2.2 Cooper' according to Graham Howard in the AGP book. By October he was running a 2.5.
Strangely, John Medley doesn't show his engine capacity at Bathurst, but does mention another '2.4'... 2368cc for Stan Jones. But he doesn't mention anything about it in the text. And in the racing, Patterson was fastest of all down the straight...
#14
David Shaw
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Posted 30 March 2007 - 19:59
With thanks to kaydee for supplying the information, this is what I have compiled for the 1958 Melbourne Grand Prix:
#15
David Shaw
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 06:59
Would somebody please be able to provide the points allocation for each year?
I have information that shows that 1958 allocated 8,5,3,2,1 for outright placings for Australian drivers only. Under this points formula, the only points allocated in the opening round at Gnoo Blas were Stan Jones 5, Len Lukey 3 and Mildren 1. Jack Brabham won (obviously running under an International Licence) and Bill Pitt was 4th in Mrs. Anderson's D-Type. This indicates that Pitt didn't race on an Australian Licence.
The inaugural Gold Star in 1957 allocated 8 for a win, so I assume it probably had the same points structure as 1958.
For 1959 the points structure was changed to 12,7,5,3,2,1 for Australian placings. It was irrelevant that Whiteford was beaten by Brabham at the opeing round at Gnoo Blas, as Whiteford was first Australian home and therefore received the full 12 points.
Any assistance with the points allocation system for the following years would be greatly appreciated, totals for each driver would be even better.
I have information that shows that 1958 allocated 8,5,3,2,1 for outright placings for Australian drivers only. Under this points formula, the only points allocated in the opening round at Gnoo Blas were Stan Jones 5, Len Lukey 3 and Mildren 1. Jack Brabham won (obviously running under an International Licence) and Bill Pitt was 4th in Mrs. Anderson's D-Type. This indicates that Pitt didn't race on an Australian Licence.
The inaugural Gold Star in 1957 allocated 8 for a win, so I assume it probably had the same points structure as 1958.
For 1959 the points structure was changed to 12,7,5,3,2,1 for Australian placings. It was irrelevant that Whiteford was beaten by Brabham at the opeing round at Gnoo Blas, as Whiteford was first Australian home and therefore received the full 12 points.
Any assistance with the points allocation system for the following years would be greatly appreciated, totals for each driver would be even better.
#16
David McKinney
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 08:04
I can't answer your question, David, but Pitt might have gained no points because he was in a sportscar, but by 1959 sportscar drivers, eg Whiteford, were eligible
My theory goes out the window however if Whiteford earned points in 1957
Either way, I can't see Pitt having anything other than an Australian licence
Other possibilities are that the points went not to Pitt but to the car's owner, or that drivers had to pre-register for points, and Pitt didn't
My theory goes out the window however if Whiteford earned points in 1957
Either way, I can't see Pitt having anything other than an Australian licence
Other possibilities are that the points went not to Pitt but to the car's owner, or that drivers had to pre-register for points, and Pitt didn't
#17
David Shaw
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 09:00
I had considered the sports car angle David, but Whiteford earned points in the 300S in 1958. (3 at the Victoria Trophy and Melbourne GP, 2 at Longford) I hadn't thought about the car ownership angle. As for the pre-registering, I doubt that very much as Pitt and the Internationals seem to be the only drivers that didn't get their allocation. By allocating no points to Pitt, my round-by-round points allocation matches a points table printed in Australian Motor Sports Review 1958-1959, which actually lists the points allocation method.
#18
David McKinney
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 09:30
The sportscar thing culd have been changed after 1957
The question would be answered if Whiteford gets third-place points for the 1957 Victoria Trophy
The question would be answered if Whiteford gets third-place points for the 1957 Victoria Trophy
#19
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:20
I'm quite surprised at the points tables being like that...
From the first Gold Star event I witnessed (14.10.62), I was cognizant that the pointscore was 9-6-4-3-2-1 and that it included only Australian licence holders. Brabham was such throughout that period, I thought. I don't have any magazines here for the significant period, so I can't be of any further help.
I certainly wouldn't think the entrant got points, by the way. Lou Abrahams, for instance, didn't get the points that Ted Gray earned. Registration for the series wouldn't have been a factor either, that's a modern thing.
From the first Gold Star event I witnessed (14.10.62), I was cognizant that the pointscore was 9-6-4-3-2-1 and that it included only Australian licence holders. Brabham was such throughout that period, I thought. I don't have any magazines here for the significant period, so I can't be of any further help.
I certainly wouldn't think the entrant got points, by the way. Lou Abrahams, for instance, didn't get the points that Ted Gray earned. Registration for the series wouldn't have been a factor either, that's a modern thing.
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#20
David Shaw
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:37
Originally posted by David McKinney
The sportscar thing culd have been changed after 1957
The question would be answered if Whiteford gets third-place points for the 1957 Victoria Trophy
But it's 1958 that's the issue. Pitt didn't get allocated points:
Round 1 Gnoo Blas - 4th good for 2 points
Round 5 Lowood - same again
Round 6 - as above
Round 8 - 6th which earns the last point
but Whiteford got credited with his 8.
#21
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:57
Who got placings at Caversham? And Pt Wakefield, for that matter?
That might help...
That might help...
#22
David McKinney
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 11:22
My apologies, David
But if Whiteford got points, Pitt's lack of same can't have been because he was in a sportscar.
The only other reason I can think of was that he wasn't officially entered in the GS race, but was admitted as a late entry with the proviso that he wasn't eligible for points. I could believe that for one race - at a pinch - but not for four. So I'm stumped
But if Whiteford got points, Pitt's lack of same can't have been because he was in a sportscar.
The only other reason I can think of was that he wasn't officially entered in the GS race, but was admitted as a late entry with the proviso that he wasn't eligible for points. I could believe that for one race - at a pinch - but not for four. So I'm stumped
#23
David Shaw
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 11:42
Caversham didn't have a Gold Star round in '58.
At Port Wakefield the pointscorers were:
Lukey
Miller
Rilstone
McEwin
Hawkes
in that order.
At Port Wakefield the pointscorers were:
Lukey
Miller
Rilstone
McEwin
Hawkes
in that order.
#24
Catalina Park
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 11:42
Maybe he was not allowed to score points because he was a Queenslander. 
The rules probably went along the lines of..
Victorians can score points and win the Gold Star.
NSW's can score points.
Queenslanders can attend and race.
Remember it was CAMS in charge so anything could be true (except the above)
The rules probably went along the lines of..
Victorians can score points and win the Gold Star.
NSW's can score points.
Queenslanders can attend and race.
Remember it was CAMS in charge so anything could be true (except the above)
#25
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 13:26
How likely...
Lukey - Lukey Bristol
Miller - Cooper aka Miller Spl
Rilstone - Eclipse Zephyr
McEwin - Mac Healey?
Hawkes - ?
So what was Hawkes in? No sports cars among those listed.
Lukey - Lukey Bristol
Miller - Cooper aka Miller Spl
Rilstone - Eclipse Zephyr
McEwin - Mac Healey?
Hawkes - ?
So what was Hawkes in? No sports cars among those listed.
#26
David Shaw
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 14:27
Tom Hawkes was in a Repco Holden powered T23 Cooper.
#27
David McKinney
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 15:44
Sorry to go a bit OT by dragging this up again, but -Originally posted by Ray Bell
I think we should just assume you and I are/were both correct and stick to 'Victoria' [Trophy] and tell the rest of the world to file in behind us
I always thought 'Victoria Trophy' sounded better than 'Victorian Trophy' - in the same way as Canada Trophy, for example, would sound classier than Canadian Trophy.
However, prompted by a Transatlantic TNF member, I have checked AMS as far back as 1950, and they give the race an 'n'. Even advertisements from the organisers do.
Maybe it changed at some stage?
But can we have a definitive ruling once and for all?
I'm sure David Shaw wants his records to be correct
#28
David Shaw
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 21:43
Nothing OT at all about that David, and thank you for bringing the point back to the fore.
I've had a look on the web and seen images of the 1963 and 1964 programme covers from Calder, and they both refer to it as the Victorian Trophy as well. The 1967 Sandown cover has it abbreviated to Vic. Trophy, and they are the only 3 I could find. The Australian Motor Sports Review 1958-1959 also refers to it in this way. By the weight of the evidence, it appears that this may be the correct title. I had also regarded it to have originally been Victoria, as in the Victoria Derby horse race, but it appears that that may not be the case.
I've had a look on the web and seen images of the 1963 and 1964 programme covers from Calder, and they both refer to it as the Victorian Trophy as well. The 1967 Sandown cover has it abbreviated to Vic. Trophy, and they are the only 3 I could find. The Australian Motor Sports Review 1958-1959 also refers to it in this way. By the weight of the evidence, it appears that this may be the correct title. I had also regarded it to have originally been Victoria, as in the Victoria Derby horse race, but it appears that that may not be the case.
#29
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 May 2008 - 22:16
This 'Victoria' or 'Victorian' thing always intrigued me...
For instance, it's not 'Victorian Police,' it's 'Victoria Police'... and so on, lots of things you'd expect to see the 'n' on the end seem to not have it... I've always concluded that maybe because things that are 'Victorian' might sound out of date.
For instance, it's not 'Victorian Police,' it's 'Victoria Police'... and so on, lots of things you'd expect to see the 'n' on the end seem to not have it... I've always concluded that maybe because things that are 'Victorian' might sound out of date.
#30
David Shaw
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 00:52
A couple of interesting snippets that I obtained from Modern Motor race reviews, in the last round in 1958 at Phillip Island, Lukey damaged the Lukey Bristol in a preliminary and borrowed the Coad Vauxhall Special, but finished eighth. The following year in the Westernport Cup (I think, I'm not at home and haven't updated the online spreadsheet yet) at Phillip Island, Stan Jones damaged the Cooper in a preliminary and borrowed Tadgell's Sabakat for the Gold Star race and got points.
#31
Ray Bell
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 00:59
The Sabakat was a Lotus 12...
Not a sports car.
Not a sports car.
#32
David Shaw
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 01:53
Yes Ray, not a sports car but I thought it interesting from a Gold Star perspective that the main players were borrowing such cars in desperation at the end of the season.
#33
Ray Bell
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 02:32
Yes, very interesting...
I wonder how much money changed hands. Not that they were very competitive cars, of course. And from the back of the grid, presumably.
Using Coad's Vauxhall Special seals the deal on sports car points, though. Obviously a sports car could get them. And I'm sure that would have been the case with Dunkerton too.
I wonder how much money changed hands. Not that they were very competitive cars, of course. And from the back of the grid, presumably.
Using Coad's Vauxhall Special seals the deal on sports car points, though. Obviously a sports car could get them. And I'm sure that would have been the case with Dunkerton too.
#34
David Shaw
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 02:46
I will try and find an alternative source of information in regards to Bill Pitt's points. Hopefully an end of season points table in one of the contemporary publications.
#35
ERault
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 13:35
If I may get back to the 1958 Melbourne Grand Prix, I have a question regarding Patterson's car as being Cooper T43 F2/9/57. I remember reading that car was with Ouvaroff in Europe in 1958. Was it really back for november ?
#36
David Shaw
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 13:56
Sorry, as this is a work-in-progress, I have since changed that particular chassis number to F2/4/57.
#37
ERault
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 14:03
Fine by me ! Thank you for sharing your work.
#38
David Shaw
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Posted 12 May 2008 - 14:08
Glad to share. I am presently working on these races to post them on to my website, the link of which you can find at the bottom of the page. I am probably only about 6 weeks from having the 57-63 Formula Libre races finalised and on there, but there are early versions available at the site.
If you click on 'The Races' link, and click on one of the years, you can for example see 1958 by changing the last part of the URL to races58.htm
If you click on 'The Races' link, and click on one of the years, you can for example see 1958 by changing the last part of the URL to races58.htm
#39
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 18:58
Two other possibilities spring to mind:
1. Pitt was disqualified at the end of the season for some reason. Hard to imagine what the reason could be as it was a libre series so it couldn't be car eligibility. Dodgy licence? Bringing the sport into disrepute?
2. The person compiling the table made a mistake.
Regarding Patterson's car at the Melbourne GP, it was an ex-works car but I don't think it is possible to say with complete confidence whether it was F2-4-57, F2-5-57, F2-8-57 or F2-9-57.
Brabhams's trip down to the South Seas had started at Ardmore on 11 Jan 1958 with 'his' ex-works car and a 2.2 for himself and the ex-works/Salvadori car for McLaren with a 1.7. Brabham then sold the 2.2 to Merv Neil and set off to Australia to race a third ex-works car (with a 1.7) at Orange on 23 Jan. This third car was sold to Stillwell and then went to Patterson. Meanwhile, the car McLaren raced at Ardmore was raced a few more times in New Zealand by Bruce and was then taken back to the UK where, according to Vercoe, it was sold to Jim Russell. (Allow me to gloss over for a moment the observation that Russell had a new T45 for 1958, not a T43.) The Brabham/Neil car lost its 2.2 for a 1.5 and also later returned to Europe where it was sold to Ouvaroff.
The admirable John Blanden identified the Brabham/Stillwell/Patterson car as F2-9-57 but his reasons were simply that 1) F2-8-57 and F2-9-57 have the entries "Works Roy" and "Works Jack" against them in Cooper records and that 2) F2-8-57 had been identified as being in England.
Vercoe's first book identifies the Brabham/Neil car as F2-8-57 but gives the same number to the McLaren car. His second corrects the number of the Brabham/Neil car to F2-9-57.
If the Cooper Register is right and assuming no cars were swapped (
), then it would make sense to believe the Brabham/Neil/Ouvaroff was F2-9-57 and the McLaren/'Russell' car was F2-8-57. The Brabham/Stillwell/Patterson car is then anyone's guess but F2-4-57 is no less logical than anything else. However, one could equally argue, as the F1R do, that the Brabham/Stillwell/Patterson car must surely be F2-9-57 leaving the Brabham/Neil/Ouvaroff as a puzzle.
Alternative points of view would be most welcome. Real facts also gratefully received.
Allen
1. Pitt was disqualified at the end of the season for some reason. Hard to imagine what the reason could be as it was a libre series so it couldn't be car eligibility. Dodgy licence? Bringing the sport into disrepute?
2. The person compiling the table made a mistake.
Regarding Patterson's car at the Melbourne GP, it was an ex-works car but I don't think it is possible to say with complete confidence whether it was F2-4-57, F2-5-57, F2-8-57 or F2-9-57.
Brabhams's trip down to the South Seas had started at Ardmore on 11 Jan 1958 with 'his' ex-works car and a 2.2 for himself and the ex-works/Salvadori car for McLaren with a 1.7. Brabham then sold the 2.2 to Merv Neil and set off to Australia to race a third ex-works car (with a 1.7) at Orange on 23 Jan. This third car was sold to Stillwell and then went to Patterson. Meanwhile, the car McLaren raced at Ardmore was raced a few more times in New Zealand by Bruce and was then taken back to the UK where, according to Vercoe, it was sold to Jim Russell. (Allow me to gloss over for a moment the observation that Russell had a new T45 for 1958, not a T43.) The Brabham/Neil car lost its 2.2 for a 1.5 and also later returned to Europe where it was sold to Ouvaroff.
The admirable John Blanden identified the Brabham/Stillwell/Patterson car as F2-9-57 but his reasons were simply that 1) F2-8-57 and F2-9-57 have the entries "Works Roy" and "Works Jack" against them in Cooper records and that 2) F2-8-57 had been identified as being in England.
Vercoe's first book identifies the Brabham/Neil car as F2-8-57 but gives the same number to the McLaren car. His second corrects the number of the Brabham/Neil car to F2-9-57.
If the Cooper Register is right and assuming no cars were swapped (
), then it would make sense to believe the Brabham/Neil/Ouvaroff was F2-9-57 and the McLaren/'Russell' car was F2-8-57. The Brabham/Stillwell/Patterson car is then anyone's guess but F2-4-57 is no less logical than anything else. However, one could equally argue, as the F1R do, that the Brabham/Stillwell/Patterson car must surely be F2-9-57 leaving the Brabham/Neil/Ouvaroff as a puzzle.Alternative points of view would be most welcome. Real facts also gratefully received.
Allen
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#40
David McKinney
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 19:19
Afraid I can't help much with sorting out which was 8/57 and which 9/57. I used to think I knew, but now I'm not so sure
I can however clarify matters regarding the engine(s) in the Brabham/Neil car.
It was entered as a 2.2 in the January 1958 NZ races but was in fact a 1960cc unit, as he told a journalist friend of mind who queried it 12 months later. Presumably the only (?) 2.2 engine was required for Buenos Aires duties.
When he sold the car he kept his '2-litre' crankshaft, which meant the car was then a 1.7, and was raced in this form by Neil in NZ, Australia and England - never with a 1500 engine.
A slight complication is that McLaren may have sold his 1.7 car to Ouvaroff. He certainly took it back to the UK, and had reportedly done a deal before the boat docked. My guess is that Ouvaroff used one car with a 1500 engine for F2 and kept the other with 1.7 engine for libre events.
I stress this is a guess but anyone who has researched 1958 UK races might be able to convince me one way or the other. I agree it seems unlikely that he would have two virtually identical cars which would require a simple engine-change for different formulae, but Dick Gibson was racing one T43 as a 1500 and another as a 1700 the same year.
I can however clarify matters regarding the engine(s) in the Brabham/Neil car.
It was entered as a 2.2 in the January 1958 NZ races but was in fact a 1960cc unit, as he told a journalist friend of mind who queried it 12 months later. Presumably the only (?) 2.2 engine was required for Buenos Aires duties.
When he sold the car he kept his '2-litre' crankshaft, which meant the car was then a 1.7, and was raced in this form by Neil in NZ, Australia and England - never with a 1500 engine.
A slight complication is that McLaren may have sold his 1.7 car to Ouvaroff. He certainly took it back to the UK, and had reportedly done a deal before the boat docked. My guess is that Ouvaroff used one car with a 1500 engine for F2 and kept the other with 1.7 engine for libre events.
I stress this is a guess but anyone who has researched 1958 UK races might be able to convince me one way or the other. I agree it seems unlikely that he would have two virtually identical cars which would require a simple engine-change for different formulae, but Dick Gibson was racing one T43 as a 1500 and another as a 1700 the same year.
#41
David Shaw
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 20:34
Thank you both for your contribution on the Cooper chassis numbers. I may take the easy way out and omit the chassis numbers where knowledgeable persons have no certainty or there is varying opinion between them. An asterisk (or for those of the Y generation 'asterix' ;) ) with an explanation in the footnotes may be the best answer.
I had thought of another possibility in regards to Pitt, is it possible that he had raced overseas and ran here in the Gold Star on that licence?
I had thought of another possibility in regards to Pitt, is it possible that he had raced overseas and ran here in the Gold Star on that licence?
#42
Ray Bell
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 20:49
I wonder if we can ask him?
I don't remember for sure, but there was something to do with him came up a couple of years ago, but I don't remember what. It might have been that he died, but it might have been that he was interviewed for a story or appeared at a function. I'll try to remember today to phone Bill Westerman, he should know.
I seriously doubt he had a licence issue. This makes the whole question a bit of a mystery. Unless, of course, it relates to a proposed secession of Queensland from the Commonwealth, but to my recollection this was mostly in the sixties and seventies.
I don't remember for sure, but there was something to do with him came up a couple of years ago, but I don't remember what. It might have been that he died, but it might have been that he was interviewed for a story or appeared at a function. I'll try to remember today to phone Bill Westerman, he should know.
I seriously doubt he had a licence issue. This makes the whole question a bit of a mystery. Unless, of course, it relates to a proposed secession of Queensland from the Commonwealth, but to my recollection this was mostly in the sixties and seventies.
#43
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:25
That's interesting! Doug Nye in Cooper Cars (p154) says that 'today Sir Jack confirms' that it was a 2.2 that 'he had made-up himself'.Originally posted by David McKinney
It was entered as a 2.2 in the January 1958 NZ races but was in fact a 1960cc unit, as he told a journalist friend of mind who queried it 12 months later. Presumably the only (?) 2.2 engine was required for Buenos Aires duties.
Regarding Steve Ouvaroff, I can ony see six starts for him in 1958, all in F2 classes.
Allen
#44
ERault
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:34
Allen, according to the F2 register, Ouvaroff's Cooper was not in F2 guise at the 58 International Trophy at Silverstone (which did not prevent him finishing dead last).
#45
David Shaw
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 21:34
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Unless, of course, it relates to a proposed secession of Queensland from the Commonwealth, but to my recollection this was mostly in the sixties and seventies.
Glyn Scott picked up a point at Lowood in June, and Arthur Griffiths picked up a point there at the August round as well.
I think that Pitt may have been overlooked by those that compiled the table, although it was in an annual which tend to have more time to double check details.
#46
David McKinney
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Posted 13 May 2008 - 22:07
I am aware of that. I wondered if Jack was confusing his 1958 engine with his 1959 NZGP one (which was 2.2)?Originally posted by Allen Brown
Doug Nye in Cooper Cars (p154) says that 'today Sir Jack confirms' that it was a 2.2 that 'he had made-up himself'
#47
Allen Brown
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:07
Doug's choice of words "made-up" instead of "built" have long intruiged me. The engine was said to be a 2.2 in pre-race publicity but as Climax had yet to build a 2.2, one can't help wondering if it was just publicity.
Allen
Allen
#48
David Shaw
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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:23
It is an odd choice of words, and in my mind conjures up visions of him substituting the crank out of the 1960cc engine and ending up with something bigger.
#49
fw07c
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Posted 18 May 2008 - 08:28
Originally posted by David Shaw
Glad to share. I am presently working on these races to post them on to my website, the link of which you can find at the bottom of the page. I am probably only about 6 weeks from having the 57-63 Formula Libre races finalised and on there, but there are early versions available at the site.
If you click on 'The Races' link, and click on one of the years, you can for example see 1958 by changing the last part of the URL to races58.htm
David this is a fantastic site .
Well done
When will you complete it?
#50
fw07c
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Posted 18 May 2008 - 08:43
I just checked and the Australiamn Gold Star results for 1957 t0 63 are complete.
Great stuff many thanks
Great stuff many thanks
