Homosexual drivers? (merged)

I know it's a sensitive topic, but could anyone of you tell me if there has been any homosexual driver in the F1? I only know that the British tabloids often say that Ralf Schumacher is gay.

Why does it matter?

Originally posted by maxie
I know it's a sensitive topic, but could anyone of you tell me if there has been any homosexual driver in the F1? I only know that the British tabloids often say that Ralf Schumacher is gay.

On the basis of all the evidence available, Mike Beuttler (a privateer March driver in the early Seventies) was gay - and what of it? He was a pretty competitive midfielder who did as well as his equipment allowed, although he was intermittently a bit of a blocker. Mike left the sport in the mid-70s and died of AIDS in San Francisco in the late 1980s. Perhaps rather ironically, Mike was the brother-in-law of serial adulterer the Rt Hon Alan Clark, PC, MP.

On the team management side, Raymond Mays of ERA and later BRM was.... well, let's be blunt - a few guys allegedly got drives at BRM more because RM fancied them than because of any inherent talent.

pete

Not a Formula One driver, but nevertheless a very capable steerer of F1 machinery, and an Australian champion...



sorry, I think it's the only pic I have of him that I can use...

Then there's this bloke, not an openwheeler driver at all, but a big time winner in touring cars...

:
Ray the first photo ofthe Cooper No 14great photo unknown driver .What track is it your doing
a DCN on us with that photo.

2nd shot is P---- (skinney ) M----- with fag in mouth.

There was a f/f f/2 driver out here in oz name initals D.M. the guys seemed to like him.

As MAXIE says a senitive topic.

Originally posted by maxie
I know it's a sensitive topic, but could anyone of you tell me if there has been any homosexual driver in the F1? I only know that the British tabloids often say that Ralf Schumacher is gay.

I only know that the British tabloids are full of $hit.

Originally posted by eldougo
Ray the first photo ofthe Cooper No 14 great photo unknown driver. What track is it? You're doing a DCN on us with that photo.....

Not so unknown...

Think white with a blue stripe. Not sure where the pic was taken, but it's a Thicktorian hillclimb.

Ray on first glance I thought that was Hume Weir.

As for Ralf well I've seen him referred to many times as 'Nancy' which is quite fitting I think regardless of his sexuality.

I'll give you a tip, Bernd...

There is never any background in Hume Weir photos... none. Cliffs, cheap grandstands, pits, concrete walls or a few trees. Never anything scenic. It was carved out of a gravel pit...

All of the American tabloids were awash in Jeff Gordon is gay articles this past fall after the divorce papers were filed. I don't believe it though. A top open wheel driver in American racing is closet gay. If he lives through it, he plans to come out at his retirement party at a gay organization headquarters and say, "See you never know. We are everywhere."

Is it Catalina Park, Ray?

And as asked above, what does it matter? What's next, are people going to start pointing fingers because someone likes to have sex exclusively with skinny girls, or fat ones? It's just a matter of who they shtupp, nothing else.

I'd be much more concerned if I found out one of our greatest racing heroes was a pedophile. Whoops.


Bruce Moxon

Arent Doc Bundy and Hurley Haywood? I dont personally care but Ithink its an interesting question because auto racing is very much the heterosexual white male landowner sport.

Hell, there was an F2 driver here who was well-known as a drug dealer. And another privateer driver in a major class who is closely related to a now-deceased organised crime figure.

Then there was the young guy whose early career was funded by his mother, a well-known Gold Coast Madam. She turned up dead one morning in suspicious circumstances. He's in the UK, last I heard, racing.

"DM" - bloody hell, I'm wracking what's left of my brain and coming up with nada. You see, I can be as prurient as the next bloke!


Bruce Moxon

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
Is it Catalina Park, Ray?

No, it's not... it's a hillclimb in Thicktoria...

...and a further request from Bruce
And as asked above, what does it matter? What's next, are people going to start pointing fingers because someone likes to have sex exclusively with skinny girls, or fat ones? It's just a matter of who they shtupp, nothing else.

I'd be much more concerned if I found out one of our greatest racing heroes was a pedophile. Whoops.

Funny you should mention that...

The first one was convicted for just that... that makes two Australian Champions who have suffered that fate.

There have been persistante rumors regarding a top V8 Supercar driver and his sexuality...

Originally posted by maxie
I know it's a sensitive topic, but could anyone of you tell me if there has been any homosexual driver in the F1? I only know that the British tabloids often say that Ralf Schumacher is gay.

How low have we fallen at The Nostalgia Forum to want to listen to such crap?
This is absolutely

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'll give you a tip, Bernd...

There is never any background in Hume Weir photos... none. Cliffs, cheap grandstands, pits, concrete walls or a few trees. Never anything scenic. It was carved out of a gravel pit...

I said at first glance Ray ;)

The surrounding countryside is very similar though that's for sure. I'm also fairly sure I've seen shots from Hume Weir with grandstands.

I know it is Christmas Eve ( at least here in Chicago ) and everyone is out doing last minute shopping, but could someone at AtlasF1 remove this DUNG from TNF, and while you are at it, the loosers who quote tabloids and unnamed sources for their comments.

Originally posted by Bernd
I said at first glance Ray ;).....

Yeah, cool mate, recognised that...

And the grandstands were cheap ones, right? Simple waterpipe and plank arrangements... actually rusty waterpipe, IIRC?

Paul, Hans... you're probably right. Accusations like those about present drivers are out of place. The Beuttler issue has been mentioned before, however...

How low have we fallen at The Nostalgia Forum to want to listen to such crap?

I know it is Christmas Eve ( at least here in Chicago ) and everyone is out doing last minute shopping, but could someone at AtlasF1 remove this DUNG from TNF, and while you are at it, the loosers who quote tabloids and unnamed sources for their comments.

Thankyou Hans and Paul.

This sort of sensationalist drivel belongs in Readers Comments, quite why TNF has been chosen is beyond me....

I'm in 2 minds about this question...on the one hand, it's a 'who cares?' point...on the other hand, it is perhaps as relevant as asking what religion a driver is, or whether he supports the Blues - it adds to the overall picture.

Incidentally, in the States last July I saw someone wearing a T-shirt saying 'Brooke - call me - 1-800 NOT-GAY'...unfortunately for the chap concerned he was the sort that, if he were the last man on the planet, would turn Brooke into a lesbian...

We can talk about mindless slaughter but we can't talk about homosexuality??? I don't see anything wrong with this discussion. Nobody posted pictures.

errr... check my first post...

My view is that conjecture is out... facts are facts.

The topic isnt the issue, only how we choose to discuss it. So the onus is on you guys to keep it from drooping to RC leves

Originally posted by Ray Bell
errr... check my first post...

Don't think Buford meant that sort of picture...

Originally posted by Paul Medici
I know it is Christmas Eve ( at least here in Chicago ) and everyone is out doing last minute shopping, but could someone at AtlasF1 remove this DUNG from TNF, and while you are at it, the loosers who quote tabloids and unnamed sources for their comments.

Sorry for all the controversy caused. I was just being curious. No harm intended.

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
How low have we fallen at The Nostalgia Forum to want to listen to such crap?
This is absolutely

Hans, I'm not trying to quote those tabloids, and I'm fully aware of their BS. Again, I just want to say that I'm just being curious of this topic. It took a long time for me to decide whether to post it, as I'm fully aware of some "less than friendly" reaction this post may create.

For me, this issue is more or less similar to many other "trivial" issues such as "which driver's wife/GF is the most gorgeous".

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
Is it Catalina Park, Ray?

Bruce Moxon

No! It is not me!

Originally posted by deangelis86
This sort of sensationalist drivel belongs in Readers Comments, quite why TNF has been chosen is beyond me....

Sorry for choosing TNF.

Originally posted by Buford
We can talk about mindless slaughter but we can't talk about homosexuality??? I don't see anything wrong with this discussion. Nobody posted pictures.

Nicely put, Buford!

Originally posted by Ray Bell

It must be a Victorian hillclimb as it is downhill

I see nothing wrong with the original question, nor the way it was posed.

It appears to me that Maxie has read something in a tabloid newspaper that might or might not be true and he would like to know what the truth is.

What better place to come in a quest for the truth than TNF?

There was a time, long ago, that many of us here on TNF will remember, when such things were not spoken about. These days, people thus inclined seem not only to be open about their sexual preferences but (though I can't understand why) are actually proud of it.

And, if I remember correctly, the only place I have ever read about Raymond Mays' homosexuality was in the highly praised book BRM Volume 1 by the much respected TNF poster Doug Nye.

Should we now demand that all copies of the book be burned and Mr DCN be banned from posting on TNF?

Regarding the hillclimb photo, I am not totally familiar with the Victorian hillclimbs of that era, but there was at least one that had a short downhill section. Was it Rob Roy? If so, that should read "has", because it's been resurrected.

But I'm more inclined to think the photo was taken at Collingrove in South Australia. I haven't driven up that climb, but I was there - 1994 I think - when I was with Alan Hamilton in the Grand Prix Rally, and walked up (and down) it.

Not a positive ID, by any means, but the surrounds have the right sort of look about them. More grass and less dirt beside the roadway when I was there, though.

As for hillclimbs going downhill, I think this isn't at all unusual in British hillclimbs. Can someone elaborate on this?

Come to think of it, there was a little bit of downhill at Silverdale in NSW, also.

There's always uphills and downhills, it seems...

Forty Bends, Barry? Wasn't that partly flat, if not downhill? Grafton has a downhill stretch too... I personally think it's Rob Roy, but it might be Hurstbridge.

Not Collingrove... the downhill section there is 'the wall' and that doesn't have that kind of background.

Anyway, I'd be surprised if the source of the photo had anything from South Australia... everything else was very much Victorian.

Originally posted by eldougo
:


M----- with fag in mouth.

Was I the only one who read this in a way according to the thread title ?

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


Was I the only one who read this in a way according to the thread title ?

No

Excuse me, this is a very valid topic and the correct place to post it. Treat the topic with respect, as you would treat a topic "Women drivers?" or a topic "Jewish drivers?" or a topic "Black drivers?"

The very question if there ever have been drivers who are known to be gay is a very valid one, and in fact an interesting one - considering how conservative and machoistic the motor racing scene is and always has been. I can only imagine that gay drivers will have a big problem being outspoken about it and as someone already mentioned, they must be deep in the closet due to social pressure around.

One of the ways to remove such social pressure and a way of actually proving that it doesn't matter is to treat such a topic with the same openness and triviality as you would with driver's nationality or religion. Getting upset by someone asking a question in a very polite and sincere manner only makes the issue a taboo and proves that it does matter.

Originally posted by bira
Excuse me, this is a very valid topic and the correct place to post it. Treat the topic with respect, as you would treat a topic "Women drivers?" or a topic "Jewish drivers?" or a topic "Black drivers?"

The very question if there ever have been drivers who are known to be gay is a very valid one, and in fact an interesting one - considering how conservative and machoistic the motor racing scene is and always has been. I can only imagine that gay drivers will have a big problem being outspoken about it and as someone already mentioned, they must be deep in the closet due to social pressure around.

One of the ways to remove such social pressure and a way of actually proving that it doesn't matter is to treat such a topic with the same openness and triviality as you would with driver's nationality or religion. Getting upset by someone asking a question in a very polite and sincere manner only makes the issue a taboo and proves that it does matter.

Well, I disagree!

However to be more precise I think that it is the speculation that is the poisonous thing. And I, personally, do not want to speculate.

Frankly I couldn't give a good goddam whether so and so was or was not gay. It makes/made no difference to whether they are/were a good driver.

In such a case if he/she wanted it be known, then OK, so be it.

If they wanted it to be kept quiet - that is their choice and I'd rather respect it. And when they are dead - I'd rather err on the side of caution as far as their families are concerned.

In other words I think respect for individual feeling outweighs another person's desire to change "social pressure".

I'll admit freely I don't have all the answers here but I believe strongly in personal liberties and I don't think it is right to fight these battles using other folks names unless they (or their families) want to fight them themselves.

I place very limited weight on the comparison to women, jewish or black drivers. Again, frankly, cos I personally could care less in the context of their driving skills - but also because such people (generally) don't mind that the subject is discussed.

There is a valid point in that discrimination is likely to have played a part in where such folks careers ended up or, in the case of, say, a team manager, whose careers he promoted. And that that may have affected gay drivers too.

But please tread carefully here.

It is quite one thing for Doug Nye, as part of a larger well researched project, to decide that the correct thing to do is to make a fact based assertion and draw a conclusion from the facts as an integral part of a history of a marque. It is quite another to speculate on the basis of remote hearsay; conjecture and, at times, prejudice.

Just my two cents.

Originally posted by Catalina Park

It must be a Victorian hillclimb as it is downhill

I'm getting a distinct impression about Thicktoria ......

Ruairidh the problem is people are attacking the mere question. You make a valid case against what could be a disrespectful debate - but whether this debate turns out to be such or not depends on how people respond. Not on what the topic is and certainly not in the form the question was asked.

By merely getting angry and setting out against the very question, the message that comes across is that this is wrong or bad or a taboo. It should not be.

There have to be gay people who follow or participate in motor racing. Statistically, there HAVE to be. And a young gay person who perhaps dreams of getting into motor racing should not get the message from the outset that this is frowned upon.

You say 'tread carefully' and I concur. I say show respect - to anyone - but don't make this topic a taboo.

Tim Richmond, a real racer... poor guy died of AIDS, I've never heard anything about intravenous drug use or clinical mishap... what else does that leave?

I suppose he could have been Bi as well, just flopped the wrong way, one time.

Just speculation on my part...


As far as the topic in general goes, if the question was asked in a genuine tome, then I'd not have a problem with it... And this seems to be the case.


IMO,

"Gay" drivers and their relevance to my "interest aspects" in racing, when taking into account, all of the fascinating things about motorsports, is like number 82 on my top ten list.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
... I personally think it's Rob Roy, but it might be Hurstbridge.

Ray, where was the Hurstbridge hill climb?

Originally posted by rdrcr
... what else does that leave? I suppose he could have been Bi as well, just flopped the wrong way, one time.

Just speculation on my part...

Well, it's funny that you never mention that he could have gotten it from a woman who had it. The whole stigma of aids being a gay/drug user disease is so blind it's scary.

Dear Punisher,

I am neither naive nor blind to the transmission of the disease... When Richmond contracted the disease, probably in the mid 1980's the chances of getting the disease from a woman at that time was remote at best...

Various studies indicate that of the cases reported (in that time period), less than 1% were from heterosexual contact (white males and white females).

But whatever...


Another source

Originally posted by rdrcr
Dear Punisher,

I am neither naive nor blind to the transmission of the disease... When Richmond contracted the disease, probably in the mid 1980's the chances of getting the disease from a woman at that time was remote at best...

Not if you sleep with thousands, which is the impression one gets from reports about him...

Welcome to TNF Bira. I don't recall seeing you post here before.

rdrcr - Tim Richmond got AIDS from a beauty queen (female) who died before he did. They knew who it was, and she probably did not even know she was infected at the time she transmitted the disease to him. So this was a case where heterosexual sex did pass the disease.

When I said "A top open wheel driver in American racing is closet gay." I meant closet to the general public. Most members of the racing community know his secret as do the racing press, but they are keeping the secret per his wishes and this has been the case for years. He is open about it in the racing world, but it is not reported to the fans or general public because it is irrelevant, and he will tell us when he wants to. His intention is to announce it when he retires. I had to make it vague because if I was more specific you could count fingers and figure it out. There are no outward stereotypical mannerisms though and even though I know it's true, I would never have guessed. Women though figure it out all the time. They have a radar about that due to their heightened sense of perception.

I've heard it said that it's millions to one against a woman passing it to a man... the other way it's much more common, for obvious reasons.

There's also blood transfusions, though screening became pretty general by the nineties to make this extremely unlikely.




Orac... I have no idea where Hurstbridge Hillclimb was... possible sources of this information would be Roy Williams (Geelong), Barry Hudson or Ian Tate (Nunawading).

Originally posted by Buford
"...rdrcr - Tim Richmond got AIDS from a beauty queen (female) who died before he did. They knew who it was, and she probably did not even know she was infected at the time she transmitted the disease to him. So this was a case where heterosexual sex did pass the disease...."

Well, then this is the first I've heard of it... the beauty queen story that is... and if it is in fact true, then I would stand corrected. Though based upon statistics of the day, my "presumption" would still have been ok.

Buford, can you direct us to a published story of your claim, or is it one of those "off the record" sort of deals?

Originally posted by Buford
He is open about it in the racing world, but it is not reported to the fans or general public because it is irrelevant, and he will tell us when he wants to. His intention is to announce it when he retires.

Aye, and I guess I just think (a) that is his right (b) it is irrelevant to his career and © I'd hope others had the same degree of respect for his wishes as Buford does....and yep, women do pick up on this real quick!

Bira, I agree that I'd hate to think of anyone not having opportunties to fulfil their talent because of simple bias against their personal orientation.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS