desmo, I love the wire wheels! Bet it was a full-time job keeping those spokes tightened!
The 'baddest' car ever built?
Started by
indycarjunkie
, Dec 24 2002 02:52
133 replies to this topic
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#52
bill moffat
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 10:36
Originally posted by David Beard
I should have cited that Rolls-Royce Merlin powered Capri of John Dodds (?) as the Baddest Car Ever.
Quite agree. A competent and reasonably compact chassis packed with 27 Litres of RR power. Unfortunately it was clothed in the most appalling elongated Capri-style bodywork..set off by an RR radiator. Mr Dodd made all sorts of outlandish claims for his device..0 to 180 in six seconds, 230mph on the Autobahns etc. One look at the aerodynamics would suggest that anything over the "ton" would be a bit of an adventure (I seem to remember it ran on standard road tyres).
Rolls Royce predictably took offence at this sad vehicle and a high profile Court Case followed. Ultimately it caught fire..only to re-emerge clothed in an equally ugly estate-style body. I believe it still survives and was the subject of a "Top Gear" report some time ago.
I think there was also some doubt as to the "Merlin" label and that it was powered by the slightly less glamorous tank version of the famous aero-engine. Possibly a Meteor but I'm no expert on these matters.
#53
Bladrian
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 11:08
About 30 years ago I spotted a crated Allison V-12 aero engine in a scrapyard here in Pretoria. An acquaintance was round there like a shot - he had a '39 Willys truck that he wanted to fit the Allison to. Now THAT would have been something to see - unfortunately, the owner of the engine refused to sell, and for years afterwards I watched that crate motor get sadder and sadder. Eventually it disappeared.
#54
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 11:19
As for 'bad', I'll take the meaning of bad as in awful. Truly.
Some years back, a brave sole here in Ontario decided to go club racing 'round Mosport with a Volvo P1800 stuffed full of V-8 power. Not sure if it was a Chevy or a Ford. Not that it matters terribly.
And terrible describes its performance. Not even remotely quick in the corners and yet obviously a handful. Clearly a menace to all including the driver. Mercifully, it was destroyed in a shunt at corner three without injury to the driver. I hope that somebody rented a backhoe and put this sucker six, no 60, feet under.
Some years back, a brave sole here in Ontario decided to go club racing 'round Mosport with a Volvo P1800 stuffed full of V-8 power. Not sure if it was a Chevy or a Ford. Not that it matters terribly.
And terrible describes its performance. Not even remotely quick in the corners and yet obviously a handful. Clearly a menace to all including the driver. Mercifully, it was destroyed in a shunt at corner three without injury to the driver. I hope that somebody rented a backhoe and put this sucker six, no 60, feet under.
#55
David Beard
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 11:47
The Sabakat Special most definitely qualifies....
Complete transcript from Autosport 5 August 1960, Australian Grand Prix.
"Sensation of the day was the appearance of one Ernest Tadgell with what had
once been the Formula 2 Lotus based Sabakat Special. Instead of the Sabakat's
original 1.5 litre Climax engine, Mr. Tadgell had chosen to install the 8,150
c.c. air-cooled opposed-six Lycoming power unit from a crashed Crop-duster
aircraft. Brave Ernie piloted his hideous pink-painted monstrosity around in a
surprising 2 mins. 18.9 secs (73m.p.h.). Lathered in sweat, despite the
lateness of the hour and the crispness of the Queensland winter evening. He
reported 120 m.p.h. at something less said the critics. "She'll do," muttered
Emie through chattering teeth.
Preceding the Grand Prix was a three lap "warmer-upper", of which Tadgell and
the Lycoming-Sabakat saw but half a tour and two hair-raising turns. On the
third, Castrol Comer, the garish monster slid, hit the straw bales, flipped,
tossed Ernie on his back in the infield, flipped again and exploded with a loud
roar. An ambulance carried Tadgell away with two broken ribs and a bent nose.
His car was still burning an hour later. Up front, Mildren broke a halfshaft on
the line, Davison won by 20 yards from Stillwell, and young Victorian-resident
Englishman John Leighton (Cooper-Climax) was third. Later, from the ambulance,
Ernest Tadgell announced his retirement from racing."
Does anyone have a photo of the brute? I can't begin to imagine an 8 litre
engine in a Lotus 12!
Complete transcript from Autosport 5 August 1960, Australian Grand Prix.
"Sensation of the day was the appearance of one Ernest Tadgell with what had
once been the Formula 2 Lotus based Sabakat Special. Instead of the Sabakat's
original 1.5 litre Climax engine, Mr. Tadgell had chosen to install the 8,150
c.c. air-cooled opposed-six Lycoming power unit from a crashed Crop-duster
aircraft. Brave Ernie piloted his hideous pink-painted monstrosity around in a
surprising 2 mins. 18.9 secs (73m.p.h.). Lathered in sweat, despite the
lateness of the hour and the crispness of the Queensland winter evening. He
reported 120 m.p.h. at something less said the critics. "She'll do," muttered
Emie through chattering teeth.
Preceding the Grand Prix was a three lap "warmer-upper", of which Tadgell and
the Lycoming-Sabakat saw but half a tour and two hair-raising turns. On the
third, Castrol Comer, the garish monster slid, hit the straw bales, flipped,
tossed Ernie on his back in the infield, flipped again and exploded with a loud
roar. An ambulance carried Tadgell away with two broken ribs and a bent nose.
His car was still burning an hour later. Up front, Mildren broke a halfshaft on
the line, Davison won by 20 yards from Stillwell, and young Victorian-resident
Englishman John Leighton (Cooper-Climax) was third. Later, from the ambulance,
Ernest Tadgell announced his retirement from racing."
Does anyone have a photo of the brute? I can't begin to imagine an 8 litre
engine in a Lotus 12!
#56
Bladrian
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 11:54
Good grief. That definitely takes the biscuit. I can't even imagine what that monstrosity must have been like to drive ........ it speaks volumes for Mr Tadgell's marked lack of any sense of self-preservation. 
#57
TODave2
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 13:07
If I may humbly submit the following:
http://www.redcoat.n...s/skodaelol.jpg
http://www.redcoat.n.../skodahatul.jpg
http://www.redcoat.n...kodacockpit.jpg
Editted as pictures were too big.
http://www.redcoat.n...s/skodaelol.jpg
http://www.redcoat.n.../skodahatul.jpg
http://www.redcoat.n...kodacockpit.jpg
Editted as pictures were too big.
#58
Bladrian
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 15:20
I REALLY don't want to get inside that bloke's head .......
#59
bobbo
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Posted 04 January 2003 - 15:39
Originally posted by Bladrian
I REALLY don't want to get inside that bloke's head .......
Jeez . . .
. . . That's 2 of us.
Bobbo
#61
TODave2
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Posted 05 January 2003 - 09:28
Come on, you just know you'd love to own it!
#62
Bladrian
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Posted 05 January 2003 - 13:43
Originally posted by TODave2
Come on, you just know you'd love to own it!
..only so that I'd legally be able to stick it in the crusher.
#63
ffiloseta
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Posted 05 January 2003 - 14:22
... or to take my mother in law for a ride.
No, wait, she may even like the contraption !
No, wait, she may even like the contraption !
#64
Paul Medici
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Posted 06 January 2003 - 00:24
Certainly the Maserati Type 151 would qualify, especially in 1962 when first introduced. She was not very lucky on the track or nearly as graceful as the 300S and 450S; had a more aggressive look, almost but not quite ungainly in appearance. And when I witnessed that 4-liter V-8 turn over for the first time ground beneath my feet shook; with none other than Sir Alfred Momo doing the honors......................................... talk about priceless moments.
#65
cm50
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 12:27
Dont have a pic (wish I did) but it wasnt bad, it was EVIL like many of its contempories. Humber/jag, zepher/corvette, Anglia/corvette/oldsmobile/lotus you name it, A40 Farina/lotus/ford/BMC and as many pre war cars powered with whatever was lying around
#66
cm50
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 12:51
I was of course referring to the request for a pic of the Morrari, Would love to have provided pics of such EVIL cars as the Stanton Special, Aero engine in the back and chain drive and the Stanton Corvette, corvette in the back and till chain drive
#67
green-blood
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 13:01
easy
Aston Martin Vantage, LeMans Edition, 600horses, 600lb/ft
Aston Martin Vantage, LeMans Edition, 600horses, 600lb/ft
#68
2F-001
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 15:38
Thanks for the Skoda pics, Dave. I'd seen these before but lost the links! Good pics to have on tap to lift dark moods/use as a sedative/frighten the neighbours or whatever...
But, back to proper competition cars... who remembers Nic Mann's Morris Minor? This had a 3.5 litre V8, turbocharger, water injection, nitrous etc. This was a seriously ''well sorted'' car (and looked surprisingly discreet, all considered) - aside from dragracing (a champion road-legal drag racer, I think) it was a very successful hillclimb car, handling the twists and turns of venues such as Prescott with aplomb. It was even driven to some events - I remember driving home from Gurston Down and it overtook me on the road with a set of slicks piled in the back!
Still with hillclimbing - there was a beast called the ''Triangle Flying Saucer'' which was, if I recall, something like an ex-military Daimler Scoutcar with an aero engine and all-wheel drive. Then there was ''Freikaiserwagen'' - a beast at the opposite end of the size scale...
But, back to proper competition cars... who remembers Nic Mann's Morris Minor? This had a 3.5 litre V8, turbocharger, water injection, nitrous etc. This was a seriously ''well sorted'' car (and looked surprisingly discreet, all considered) - aside from dragracing (a champion road-legal drag racer, I think) it was a very successful hillclimb car, handling the twists and turns of venues such as Prescott with aplomb. It was even driven to some events - I remember driving home from Gurston Down and it overtook me on the road with a set of slicks piled in the back!
Still with hillclimbing - there was a beast called the ''Triangle Flying Saucer'' which was, if I recall, something like an ex-military Daimler Scoutcar with an aero engine and all-wheel drive. Then there was ''Freikaiserwagen'' - a beast at the opposite end of the size scale...
#69
2F-001
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 15:43
Though I admire the rather graceful AC Ace, I've never really liked Cobras at all (there - I've said it... oh dear...) but I do think the Daytona Coupe is a really handsome thing. Would it be fair to think of the racing versions of the Viper coupé as a modern evocation of that - or could I get blackballed for saying stuff like that?
#70
VAR1016
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 15:56
"Baddest"?
Ferrari 375 Plus as driven in the pouring rain by Froilan Gonzales to a victory in the vingt-quatre heures du Mans 1954.
A 4.5 litre V-12 weighing about a ton; drum brakes, tyres like concrete pennies; Good God.
The WORST? A Renault 4, fitted with its original engine.
PdeRL
Ferrari 375 Plus as driven in the pouring rain by Froilan Gonzales to a victory in the vingt-quatre heures du Mans 1954.
A 4.5 litre V-12 weighing about a ton; drum brakes, tyres like concrete pennies; Good God.
The WORST? A Renault 4, fitted with its original engine.
PdeRL
#71
dbw
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 16:05
i submit the phil cool 32 ford hiboy roadster ....maybe 1800 lbs with a HUGE biggest block V8 blown with an equally huge GMC blower....basically a gasser for the street...interestingly enough,altho street legal, it was[is] totally undrivable!! i had a ride when jerry brassfield had it and later saw it at gil nickles "intimate"gathering at his winery in conjunction with a sonoma vintage race...just as wild as ever...visually outragous..even at rest,loud beyond belief when started,and almost totally unable to keep the front wheels on the ground in motion....pretty bad ride.
tho now "bad" is so over it's over...."phat" had a hold for a bit..and apparently one must now add a numeral or two to represent actual words..."2 phat 2 drive" or thereabouts....like hemlines, street language is always on the move...
and as for DCN's rather stuffy nudge at english on this side of the pond,i challange him to mingle with some teens on his own island and attempt to communicate...jolly good luck!
tho now "bad" is so over it's over...."phat" had a hold for a bit..and apparently one must now add a numeral or two to represent actual words..."2 phat 2 drive" or thereabouts....like hemlines, street language is always on the move...
and as for DCN's rather stuffy nudge at english on this side of the pond,i challange him to mingle with some teens on his own island and attempt to communicate...jolly good luck!
#72
VAR1016
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 16:39
Originally posted by dbw
and as for DCN's rather stuffy nudge at english on this side of the pond,i challange him to mingle with some teens on his own island and attempt to communicate...jolly good luck!
Hmm; generally not recommended.
All this reminds me of the old joke thus:
Q. "Why has Michael Jackson called his new album "Bad"?
A. "Because he cannot spell "pathetic"."
PdeRL
#73
dretceterini
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 17:29
In the 1960s tehre was a guy that ran a drag bike with a 327 Chevy stuffed through the rails...
#74
scdecade
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 17:46
Originally posted by indycarjunkie
I've always thought the '67 Shelby GT Cobra was the baddest sports car ever built. Can anyone (Don?) tell me if Don Capps ever wrote a Rear View Mirror article on Carroll Shelby's entry into the sport car racing world and his creation of a classic race car? Also, I was wondering if there were any RVM archive articles floating about in Atlas. I've been looking but can't seem to find any.
Thanks.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the '97 Penske Indy 500 winner with the pushrod motor. Considering the Penske chassis couldn't even qualify for Indy the following year that Ilmore/Mercedes lump must've been truly mega. 1,000+ hp!
#75
mudpuppy
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 17:49
Hmm the Shelby Cobra never won LeMans and had limited racing success. If we're talking hotrods, I'd have to go with the later Ford GT40s (which look very much lifted from Lambo or Maseratti). On looks and sound I'd have to go with the Lamboghini Miuria. On sheer bad ass-ness, I'd have to go with the Porsche 917-10 closed cockpit, LeMans tail (the one with windtunnel testing by Norbert Singer). Or maybe the 911 RSR with 14" rear wheels and a blown 3.0 liter with an intercooler and titanium axles and brakes. This thing was a freakin hand grenade with a stock production based body.if if if if
#76
Dennis Hockenbury
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 18:01
For me, I would have to choose the Porsche 917/30. The rush from driving this car would be the ultimate.
Then again, not the choice to take the kids to the movies either.
Then again, not the choice to take the kids to the movies either.
#77
David Beard
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 18:21
Originally posted by dretceterini
In the 1960s tehre was a guy that ran a drag bike with a 327 Chevy stuffed through the rails...
E.J. Potter...The Michigan Madman. When I saw him they brought him on in a cage. He got in a tank slapper half way up the strip then hit the barrier...he went one way, the Chevy went another, the cycle parts went yet another. All ways involved a very skyward trajectory. I heard he went back to the States and built a new bike with two Chevies....
#78
doc540
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 20:42
Baddest cars?
Anything ever built and raced by E.J.Potter, the Michigan Madman.
Should I post a coupe of pictures for the uninitiated?
Anything ever built and raced by E.J.Potter, the Michigan Madman.
Should I post a coupe of pictures for the uninitiated?
#79
Doug Nye
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 21:11
Now, if I understand this 'baddestness' business correctly these two ought to qualify pretty easily...
...and....
...these things seem largely to be constructed and driven by amiable extroverts who are due back at the institution before dark each night, but I always enjoy their optimism...particularly the ones (not pictured) who opt for four or five of those ex-Soviet surplus gas turbines...
DCN
...and....
...these things seem largely to be constructed and driven by amiable extroverts who are due back at the institution before dark each night, but I always enjoy their optimism...particularly the ones (not pictured) who opt for four or five of those ex-Soviet surplus gas turbines...
DCN
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#80
David Beard
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 21:13
Originally posted by doc540
Baddest cars?
Anything ever built and raced by E.J.Potter, the Michigan Madman.
Should I post a coupe of pictures for the uninitiated?
Please do.
I've just discovered he's written a book....
http://www.techdirec...l/EJPotter.html
#81
Vitesse2
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Posted 09 June 2003 - 21:35
Originally posted by 2F-001
Still with hillclimbing - there was a beast called the ''Triangle Flying Saucer'' which was, if I recall, something like an ex-military Daimler Scoutcar with an aero engine and all-wheel drive.
Here's the Triangle. 21 litres of rear-engined monster.
And the 27-litre supercharged Swandean Spitfire
Two pics originally posted by Roger Clark in the Brighton Speed Trial thread.
#82
doc540
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 02:52
I spoke with E. J. by phone a while back to order both his book and video. He's quite personable for a madman.
He had an affinity for stuffing large engines in machines intended for small engines. His Allison V-12 Dodge Dart wagon and the Allison powered '62 Plymouth wagon (which he drove from the rear seat) were behemoths.
Today he's still tinkering with turbine engines. His turbine powered trike didn't quite work out since he couldn't chop the power and slow it down without it slewing sideways.
Here's the bike that started it all.
(Note the Whizzer fuel tank)
And a later version, "The Widowmaker"
Click on the link for a picture of it in full burn at speed.
The Madman
He had an affinity for stuffing large engines in machines intended for small engines. His Allison V-12 Dodge Dart wagon and the Allison powered '62 Plymouth wagon (which he drove from the rear seat) were behemoths.
Today he's still tinkering with turbine engines. His turbine powered trike didn't quite work out since he couldn't chop the power and slow it down without it slewing sideways.
Here's the bike that started it all.
(Note the Whizzer fuel tank)
And a later version, "The Widowmaker"
Click on the link for a picture of it in full burn at speed.
The Madman
#83
eldridge
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 12:23
Fiat Mephistopheles - 21.7 litre 6 cylinder engine stuffed into a 1908 GP chassis.
Driven at over 150 mph on a tree-lined gravel road on skinny tyres in 1924!!
Has to be the baddest!
Doug, you have driven it - would you agree?
Driven at over 150 mph on a tree-lined gravel road on skinny tyres in 1924!!
Has to be the baddest!
Doug, you have driven it - would you agree?
#84
VAR1016
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 13:52
Originally posted by eldridge
Fiat Mephistopheles - 21.7 litre 6 cylinder engine stuffed into a 1908 GP chassis.
Driven at over 150 mph on a tree-lined gravel road on skinny tyres in 1924!!
Has to be the baddest!
Doug, you have driven it - would you agree?
Eldridge?
Not E.A.D. Eldridge who had the dual in Mephistopheles at Brooklands in 1925 with Parry Thomas in the Leyland Eight?
PdeRL
#85
petefenelon
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 14:05
Originally posted by 2F-001
Still with hillclimbing - there was a beast called the ''Triangle Flying Saucer'' which was, if I recall, something like an ex-military Daimler Scoutcar with an aero engine and all-wheel drive. Then there was ''Freikaiserwagen'' - a beast at the opposite end of the size scale...
Scan of an article on the Triangle Flying Saucer here:
http://www.fenelon.c...lyingsaucer.pdf
pete
#86
eldridge
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 14:59
Yes - the very same Eldridge.
#87
VAR1016
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 15:02
Originally posted by eldridge
Yes - the very same Eldridge.
A relative of course?
PdeRL
#88
eldridge
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Posted 10 June 2003 - 15:04
Indeed - great Grandfather
#89
bournenville
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 01:33
I dont know if someone already mentioned it...
The worst by far...
IMHO...
is...
LIFE F1 Project 
The worst by far...
IMHO...
is...
LIFE F1 Project
#90
bournenville
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 01:35
Poor Bruno Giacomelli,he was a very good driver... :
#91
VAR1016
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 09:58
Originally posted by eldridge
Indeed - great Grandfather
Amazing; do you happen to know if he really used bus chassis parts to lengthen the car as was always rumoured?
PdeRL
#92
eldridge
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 13:48
I'm afraid, but very little is "officially" known about the man. The rumour is simply that - a rumour. If you have any info, it would be greatfully received.
#93
VAR1016
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 14:27
Originally posted by eldridge
I'm afraid, but very little is "officially" known about the man. The rumour is simply that - a rumour. If you have any info, it would be greatfully received.
All I have is what I read in Clutton & Stanford I'm afraid.
I should think that Bill Boddy would possibly have some information as EADE was a Brooklands habituee.
PdeRL
#94
lanciaman
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 15:17
Your typical NHRA AA Fuel dragster or Funny Car will generate around 6000 HP for a little over three seconds, all the time needed to get from dead rest to 300+ mph. Stand too close to these monsters at the start, and you will bleed from the ears, your spectacle lenses will melt and you will have tremors for the rest of the day.
#96
doc540
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 17:35
I haven't read the link, but I have seen Jay Leno actually ride the turbine bike on the streets of L.A.
#97
Doug Nye
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 17:41
Originally posted by eldridge
I'm afraid, but very little is "officially" known about the man. The rumour is simply that - a rumour. If you have any info, it would be greatfully received.
I believe 'the rumour' that Eldridge used 'bus parts' to lengthen his Fiat is probably founded in fact. The Bod described how a London General Omnibus Co chassis frame was sawn up to provide the rail stock necessary. I believe the story was related originally by Eldridge himself before his premature demise. 'Mephisto's chassis frame today features two prominent welded joints, which are depicted in the Goodwood Festival of Speed 10th anniversary video due shortly from Goodwood and David Weguelin Productions.
And, yes, the old devil is pretty stirring to drive today....
DCN
#98
David Beard
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 17:49
Originally posted by Doug Nye
And, yes, the old devil is pretty stirring to drive today....
DCN
C'mon Doug..let's have the photo!
#99
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 21:37
Originally posted by lanciaman
Your typical NHRA AA Fuel dragster or Funny Car will generate around 6000 HP for a little over three seconds, all the time needed to get from dead rest to 300+ mph. Stand too close to these monsters at the start, and you will bleed from the ears, your spectacle lenses will melt and you will have tremors for the rest of the day.
With all that... would you notice the tremors?
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#100
Lotus23
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Posted 11 June 2003 - 23:00
lanciaman, I might add: while all that is taking place, the searing nitromethane fumes will be turning your lungs into gray porridge!
