Depending on how you view the 2002 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona, it could be terrible or optimistic. Terrible, because a GT Porsche not only won but battled on track against the "premeir" class of Daytona Prototypes, but good because the best prepared team that spent the least amount of time in the pits without mistakes won the race.
Whatever your opinion, that is not what this thread is about. It is about lower class cars that have won overall against supposedly quicker competition.
Here are the examples that my meager experiences have:
2003 Rolex 24 Racers Group Porsche GT winning against quicker GTS and DP machines
2001 Rolex 24 P&M Team Corvette outlast a quality field of prototypes in SRP and SRPII and pass the leading R&S with but a few hours to go after attrition from rain (note: Lola Porsche would have walked away had a rock not went into the airbox, but thats racing)
2001 FIA Sports Cars A Lucchini-Alfa Romeo wins overall in a wet Spa event. Unlike LMP675, SRPII were never intended to challenge the bigger SRP cars in Europe or America unless rain (like in Spa) or attrition took place
2000 Viper Team ORECA and Team Corvette outlast a field of SRP and SRPII cars to have one of the closest finishes in the history of the 24 hours.
Those are the ones off the top of my head, others like Jacky Icyx outqualifying nearly everyone in an F2 car at the Ring in 67 are outstanding, but not overall victories.
Anymore?
Lower class overall victories
Started by
Megatron
, Feb 17 2003 13:23
18 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 13:41
Leo Geoghegan once won the Hordern Trophy race at Warwick Farm in a 1.5 Lotus 32...
The top 2.5 cars all failed that day.
You couldn't count it, but you should be able to... Piers Courage's victory in the final round of the 1968 Tasman Cup series at Longford in the 1.6 litre McLaren M4a.
Paddling around in the wet didn't suit the Lotus 49s, V12 BRMs or the 2.5 Ferraris...
The top 2.5 cars all failed that day.
You couldn't count it, but you should be able to... Piers Courage's victory in the final round of the 1968 Tasman Cup series at Longford in the 1.6 litre McLaren M4a.
Paddling around in the wet didn't suit the Lotus 49s, V12 BRMs or the 2.5 Ferraris...
#3
BRG
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 13:41
With no references to hand, I am relying on memory, but wasn't Le Mans won by a Gp5 Porsche in the late 70s (driven by the Whittinghams?).
In rallying, such things are not so rare - Kenneth Ericksson winning the Ivory Coast Rally in the fwd VW Golf for instance beating the 4wd competition, or a Group N car winning over Group A or WRC competition (several instacnes, although not at the highest levels.
And I just remembered, Peter Gethin winning the 1973 Gold Cup in a F5000 car over F1 competition - does that count, as he had 5 litres against their 3 litres...;)
In rallying, such things are not so rare - Kenneth Ericksson winning the Ivory Coast Rally in the fwd VW Golf for instance beating the 4wd competition, or a Group N car winning over Group A or WRC competition (several instacnes, although not at the highest levels.
And I just remembered, Peter Gethin winning the 1973 Gold Cup in a F5000 car over F1 competition - does that count, as he had 5 litres against their 3 litres...;)
#4
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 13:47
Not really...
When F1 and F5000 ran together it was more or less on equal terms. Unusual for the F5000s to get up, but they did sometimes.
Same thing with the Tasman Cup formula from 1970... 2.5 racing engines or F5000 production engines. Sometimes the 2.5s won, sometimes the 5000s.
When F1 and F5000 ran together it was more or less on equal terms. Unusual for the F5000s to get up, but they did sometimes.
Same thing with the Tasman Cup formula from 1970... 2.5 racing engines or F5000 production engines. Sometimes the 2.5s won, sometimes the 5000s.
#5
Megatron
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 13:55
I forgot about the Dauer Porsche "GT" machine which was virtually a flat bottomed 962 with more weight and more power. Not sure that counts as the loopholes for GT1 were big enough to drive one of those through.
Also, the 1994 Daytona 24 was won by a GTS Nissan, it was the debut of the WSC formula and the cars, while being faster than the GTS (something the DP sadly couldn't say), weren't reliable.
Wasn't Sebring won one year by a lower class Porsche?
Also, the 1994 Daytona 24 was won by a GTS Nissan, it was the debut of the WSC formula and the cars, while being faster than the GTS (something the DP sadly couldn't say), weren't reliable.
Wasn't Sebring won one year by a lower class Porsche?
#6
petefenelon
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 13:56
Originally posted by Megatron
have:
2003 Rolex 24 Racers Group Porsche GT winning against quicker GTS and DP machines
2001 Rolex 24 P&M Team Corvette outlast a quality field of prototypes in SRP and SRPII and pass the leading R&S with but a few hours to go after attrition from rain (note: Lola Porsche would have walked away had a rock not went into the airbox, but thats racing)
2001 FIA Sports Cars A Lucchini-Alfa Romeo wins overall in a wet Spa event. Unlike LMP675, SRPII were never intended to challenge the bigger SRP cars in Europe or America unless rain (like in Spa) or attrition took place
2000 Viper Team ORECA and Team Corvette outlast a field of SRP and SRPII cars to have one of the closest finishes in the history of the 24 hours.
Those are the ones off the top of my head, others like Jacky Icyx outqualifying nearly everyone in an F2 car at the Ring in 67 are outstanding, but not overall victories.
Anymore?
Peter Gethin winning in a Chevron B24 against a strong F1 field?!
(just edited out my comment about the Nissan winning Daytona as I noticed someone else posted it above!)
pete
#7
Vitesse2
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 14:10
Keith Holland winning the 1969 Madrid GP in a F5000 Lola. Yeah - I know - not exactly a top class field!
Ray: F5000 wasn't usually competitive with F1, except in the rain - at Brands they were about one and a half seconds a lap slower in the dry, although admittedly the better drivers were usually in the F1 cars. IIRC Gethin's win was in the wet.
Perhaps the different situation in Oz was due more to driving standards? Graeme Lawrence in the Ferrari 246T was a fairly potent combination.
Ray: F5000 wasn't usually competitive with F1, except in the rain - at Brands they were about one and a half seconds a lap slower in the dry, although admittedly the better drivers were usually in the F1 cars. IIRC Gethin's win was in the wet.
Perhaps the different situation in Oz was due more to driving standards? Graeme Lawrence in the Ferrari 246T was a fairly potent combination.
#8
Frank de Jong
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 14:15
The 1973 Daytona win by a private Porsche Carrera RSR against the prototypes was quite a shock; from the top of my head, the car was not yet homologated at the time but was in fact a GT. How fitting, 30 years on...
In the ETCC, the division 2 BMW M3's won races and championships overall. In earlier years, a division 2 Zakspeed Escort won overall, just like the late-70's Eggenberger BMW 320's.
In the ETCC, the division 2 BMW M3's won races and championships overall. In earlier years, a division 2 Zakspeed Escort won overall, just like the late-70's Eggenberger BMW 320's.
#9
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 14:38
Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....Perhaps the different situation in Oz was due more to driving standards? Graeme Lawrence in the Ferrari 246T was a fairly potent combination.
This is a joke, right?
On the other front, while I accept that the F1 cars were almost always quicker, they started the race on a par with the F5000s... there were no thoughts that F5000s were in another race that was being held concurrently.
#10
ensign14
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 16:07
When Moss/Lloyd won at Sebring in circa 1954 in the Osca, was this in a lower class to the Ferraris that all fell out?
#11
fines
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 16:23
# 147 !!!! 
1902 Paris - Vienna
Marcel Renault on a Voiture léger (i.e. F2) Renault beat all the big guns!
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1902 Paris - Vienna
Marcel Renault on a Voiture léger (i.e. F2) Renault beat all the big guns!
__________________
Take a look at the lawman
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man, wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best-selling show!
Is there life on Mars?
#12
dretceterini
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 17:36
At the 1948 Mille Miglia a Fiat 1100 based special finished 2nd overall to a Ferrari 166 Allemano bodied coupe.
#13
josh.lintz
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 19:02
A Porsche 934 beat the prototypes in IMSA's 12 Hours of Sebring in 1983. It was a GTO-class Porsche 934 driven by Wayne Baker, Jim Mullen and Kees Nierop that won overall honors.
Don't forget Jackie Stewart winning the '66 Monaco GP in a 2.0 liter BRM...
Don't forget Jackie Stewart winning the '66 Monaco GP in a 2.0 liter BRM...
#14
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 20:56
Stewart was running a Formula 1 car at Monaco...
Remember, the question is about a lesser class car beating the superior class car. There must be many examples in the Mille Miglia, by the way, and also the Targa... Porsches winning there in the early sixties were trouncing cars in larger classes.
There might be one or two such wins in the Nurburgring 1000km too... and didn't the Rodriguez brothers once win in a 2.4 car somewhere?
Remember, the question is about a lesser class car beating the superior class car. There must be many examples in the Mille Miglia, by the way, and also the Targa... Porsches winning there in the early sixties were trouncing cars in larger classes.
There might be one or two such wins in the Nurburgring 1000km too... and didn't the Rodriguez brothers once win in a 2.4 car somewhere?
#15
Vitesse2
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Posted 17 February 2003 - 22:28
Originally posted by Ray Bell
This is a joke, right?
On the other front, while I accept that the F1 cars were almost always quicker, they started the race on a par with the F5000s... there were no thoughts that F5000s were in another race that was being held concurrently.
No, I was serious! F5000s were nearer competitive with Tasman cars than with F1s. I've picked a F1/F5000 race at random - the 1972 Race of Champions: 40 laps of Brands Hatch. As per usual, Ferrari weren't there, but Lotus, BRM, McLaren, Surtees, March and Eifelland were, plus all the F5000 front runners from a race the previous day (except McRae, who'd been disqualified and withdrew in a fit of pique).
The first four rows of the grid (3-2-3) were all F1s and even the Eifelland was faster than van Lennep in the best of the F5000s, filling out row 5.
In the race itself, Rollinson was fastest F5000 runner, but all the F5000s were lapped at least once by the first eight F1 finishers. Ninth was Dave Walker in the Lotus 72 (lapped - 'nuff said
), then Rollinson - who had admittedly spun - both on 39 laps. A further lap down were Stommelen's Eifelland, Peterson's March 721X (pit stopped with teething problems) and Pilette's McLaren M18.Fittipaldi broke the outright lap record with a time of 1min23.6sec. Redman set FL in the F5000 class in his old M10B (the B24 wasn't ready) - 1min27.1sec
#16
Chris Townsend
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Posted 18 February 2003 - 19:57
In the rather more iffy area of the British G8 series of 76-78 we have victories for F2 cars over F1 and F5000.
Snetterton, August '76 Ray Mallock in a March 742 won, though mainly because David Purley fell off on the penultimate lap.
Though Mallock did still beat Mike Wilds in a Shadow DN3 and Keith Holland in a Lola T400.
The following year, Thruxton. Tony Rouff in a Ralt beat all the F1s and F5000s. Although most of the leading big cars retired, Rouff did nonetheless
lead home Guy Edwards in March 75A-Ford GAA and Keith Holland [again!] in a Lola T332C - both of whom would reasonably have expected to blow Rouff
away. I think this was a damp race, don't know about the Mallock victory.
And neither of those F2 guys were running Hart 420s or BMWs, but old BDAs.
Snetterton, August '76 Ray Mallock in a March 742 won, though mainly because David Purley fell off on the penultimate lap.
Though Mallock did still beat Mike Wilds in a Shadow DN3 and Keith Holland in a Lola T400.
The following year, Thruxton. Tony Rouff in a Ralt beat all the F1s and F5000s. Although most of the leading big cars retired, Rouff did nonetheless
lead home Guy Edwards in March 75A-Ford GAA and Keith Holland [again!] in a Lola T332C - both of whom would reasonably have expected to blow Rouff
away. I think this was a damp race, don't know about the Mallock victory.
And neither of those F2 guys were running Hart 420s or BMWs, but old BDAs.
#17
Geoff E
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Posted 18 February 2003 - 23:10
I'm sure this must be in the spirit of the thread, but 37 years after the event I can't be sure if the race had different classes. It was at Brands Hatch in spring 1966 in some sort of sports car race on the Indy circuit. John Miles (son of actor Sir Bernard) was driving a Lotus Elan and halfway round the first lap his bonnet flew up, somewhat restricting his forward vision and necessitating an unscheduled pit stop and demotion to last place. I remember there were two large-engined cars, one being a Sunbeam Tiger battling it out for the lead and at the start of the last lap, Miles had caught them up. He disposed of one of them comfortably and coming out of the last corner (Clearways?) he pulled out to inch his way past the Tiger and win by a couple of feet.
#18
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 February 2003 - 01:48
Originally posted by Vitesse2
No, I was serious! F5000s were nearer competitive with Tasman cars than with F1s.....
I meant about Lawrence...
#19
D-Type
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Posted 01 March 2003 - 18:57
Going back to the original question
1954 Sebring 1500 Osca Moss / Lloyd
In answer to another questioner there was a 1500cc class
1956 Targa 1500 Porsche Maglioli
Although Von Hanstein was listed as co-driver, he didn't drive
1959 Targa 1500 Porsche Barth / Seidel
1960 Sebring 1600 Porsche Gendebien / Herrmann
1960 Targa 1600 Porsche Bonnier / Hermann / Hill
There were also numerous occasions when Porsche took second or third places
1954 Sebring 1500 Osca Moss / Lloyd
In answer to another questioner there was a 1500cc class
1956 Targa 1500 Porsche Maglioli
Although Von Hanstein was listed as co-driver, he didn't drive
1959 Targa 1500 Porsche Barth / Seidel
1960 Sebring 1600 Porsche Gendebien / Herrmann
1960 Targa 1600 Porsche Bonnier / Hermann / Hill
There were also numerous occasions when Porsche took second or third places
