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The E.R.A. thread

Started by David Beard , Feb 27 2003 21:55

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#101 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 00:02

Top pics ES72 :-)

just found a website that might throw some light on the R2B / R12B riddle but has not as yet clarified the mystery of the shocks, I wonder if Alan's assertion about the De Ram shocks is correct it would appear that R12B became two separate cars !!!

See http://members.madas...son/ERAcars.htm

Does anyone know how to get in touch with 'Bill' Morris maybe he could clarify what the real story behind the cars with the protruding mirrors and De Ram shocks really is ?

He seems to have had both Hanuman's in his care simultaneously at some point, I am wondering if my picture post #90 could be the repaired Hanuman fitted with De Ram shocks previously only ever seen on Romulous ?

Edited by arttidesco, 17 May 2010 - 07:58.

#102 David McKinney

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:44

Bill Morris is no longer with us

#103 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 07:41

Bill Morris is no longer with us

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=108575

#104 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:00

Thanks for passing on the sad news David and Tim a sad loss to us and the cause of all things ERA by the sound of it.

Belated condolences to Bill's family and friends.

#105 elansprint72

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:14

That looks like that glorious enthusiast Donald Day
Roger Lund

Indeed; quite a guy.

#106 Alan Cox

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 09:54

More and more intriguing. Could it be that Bill Morris fitted R12B with De Rams for a short period during his ownership, and that this is the car in RJC's photo? I was certainly never aware of it before but, looking more closely, I now see it in this picture from Oulton in 1982
Posted Image

R2B Oulton Park 1976
Posted Image

R2B Oulton Park 1980
Posted Image

R12B Oulton Park 1976
Posted Image

R12C Oulton Park 1982
Posted Image

#107 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 11:25

Gosh ! How the plot thickens at every turn referring to your post I see the possibilities thus :-

More and more intriguing. Could it be that Bill Morris fitted R12B with De Rams for a short period during his ownership, and that this is the car in RJC's photo? I was certainly never aware of it before but, looking more closely, I now see it in this picture from Oulton in 1982

Above R12B distinguished by protruding mirrors crank handle and fitted with De Rams, same vehicle as RJC's 1980 Brands Hatch photo post #90.

Above R2B Oulton Park 1980, distinguished by De Rams crank spindle but absence of crank handle.

Above R2B Oulton Park 1976, distinguished by by single oblong faired mirror on the left hand side of the car (right hand side of the picture), De Rams and absence of crank handle.

R12C Oulton Park 1982 distinguished by unpainted protruding mirrors, absence of De Rams and Crank spindle and handle

ref the mirrors they point to the re manufactured parts mentioned in http://members.madas...n/ERAcars.htm:-

ERA R12C "Hanuman"

1982 - Respected car restorer and ERA expert W.R.G. “Bill” Morris rebuilt the wreckage left over from the R12B/C “Hanuman” crash and rebuild (see R12B "Hanuman / Hanuman II", above). The project used the original mangled chassis frame from R12B/C, other R12B/C parts and other period parts with any gaps filled by remanufactured parts.

Note the rad grill on R12C above looks same as R5B 'Remus'.

http://www.carandcla.../C140210?pt=pf#

Finally above #29 in the foreground, R12C more complete than previous distinguished by now painted protruding mirrors, no De Rams or crank spindle/handle and #14 in the background R12B distinguished by De Rams and Crank Handle.

I think that has cleared up most of the questions for now RJC's 1980 pic is indeed R12B unusually fitted with De Rams :-)

Thanks for your help everyone :-)

Best

Art T

Edited by arttidesco, 17 May 2010 - 11:35.

#108 Dutchy

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:47

Another feature which differentiates R2B from R12B is the cutaway on the o/s of the radiator cowling at the bottom. I don't think anyone has mentioned that.

#109 Alan Cox

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:26

R12C Oulton Park 1982 distinguished by unpainted protruding mirrors, absence of De Rams and Crank spindle and handle

That's actually R12B, Art, 1975ish, when owned by David Kergon and Bill Morris.

Edited by Alan Cox, 17 May 2010 - 17:44.

#110 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:27

Jeez ! just when I thought it was safe to move back to an unexplained Alfa Romeo 179 I get sucked back into another ERA R12B mystery !!!! :-)

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4357819

Lets look at the evidence, the photo above is definitely not R2B or R5B it has the wrong mirrors (protruding) and does not have either the cut out mentioned by Dutchy, thanks Dutchy ! :-), neither is there any sign of the De Ram front shocks or the type used on R5B.

So far we have only seen pics of R12B (circa 1980) with De Rams Protruding PAINTED Mirrors, Fully colour coded grill, yellow wheels and a crank handle.

The #21 car above has unpainted protruding mirrors a chromed grill insert (of the type also seen on R5B which has a blue chassis) no evidence of crank handle or crank spindle and no yellow wheels. Which suggests to me that the car above is a work in progress, particularly the unpainted mirror's and that chrome grill and non yellow wheels.

There is something about the front suspension a yellow pipe containing the steering rod (?) that does not tie up with the #29 R12C seen in post #108

So I could be persuaded that the #21 car above is R12B in progress if the date the picture was 1976 but if it is a later date it does not tally with the other pictures of R12B we have fitted with De Ram shocks and a crank handle 1980 -1982.

I think we agree again Alan my mistake I thought that pic was taken in 1982 for some reason :-)

It would be interesting to know what happened to the chrome grill, since colour coded and why the De Rams and crank handle appeared ?

Edited by arttidesco, 17 May 2010 - 17:42.

#111 Alan Cox

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:42

Lets look at the evidence, the photo above is definitely not R2B or R5B it has the wrong mirrors (oblong) and does not have either the cut out mentioned by Dutchy, thanks Dutchy ! :-), neither is there any sign of the De Ram front shocks or the type used on R5B..

The #21 car above has unpainted protruding mirrors a chromed grill insert (of the type also seen on R5B which has a blue chassis) no evidence of crank handle or crank spindle and no yellow wheels. Which suggests to me that the car above is a work in progress, particularly the unpainted mirror's and that chrome grill.

Are you saying the #21 above is R12B circa 1976 Alan ?

I presume you are referring to the Imola 2000 photo of Jost Wildbolz, Tony Stephens and John Ure. The lead car is R4A with R12B behind.

The #21 car was probably taken in 1975, and is also a different shade of blue. At the time it was owned jointly by David Kergon and Bill Morris. Crank spindles and handles can, of course, be added and removed depending on preferences.

#112 arttidesco

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 17:45

I presume you are referring to the Imola 2000 photo of Jost Wildbolz, Tony Stephens and John Ure. The lead car is R4A with R12B behind.

The #21 car was probably taken in 1975, and is also a different shade of blue. At the time it was owned jointly by David Kergon and Bill Morris. Crank spindles and handles can, of course, be added and removed depending on preferences.

I agree with you, sorry been a bit cack handed coming up with my response, wanted to eliminate all the possibilities :-)

To confirm I agree #21 is R12B circa 1975/6 :-)

#113 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 07:52

Has anybody seen or heared about this DVD ?
Link

#114 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 08:23

I can't help with the DVD, Ralf, but I do hope that this bit of the info on it in your link is wrong:

Running Time: 0 Minutes

#115 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 08:40

Maybe that´s the reason why it is not widely known...

#116 BrmBoy

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 15:16

I have found this .............
http://www.qleap.co.uk/default.asp

follow .......
"DVD Department"
"Sport"
"MOTORSPORTS"
on the first page ----- BRM, BRITISH RACING MOTORS
BRM was founded just after the Second World War by Raymond Mays, who had built several hill-climb and road racing cars under the ERA brand before the war, and Peter Burton, a long-time associate.
http://www.qleap.co....pID=5733&cID=32

on the second page "ERA – ENGLISH RACING ASSOCIATION"
No history of Motor racing would be complete without an in depth look at the formative years of this motor racing powerhouse.
http://www.qleap.co....pID=5629&cID=32

If they are actually available yet - Don't know!

#117 wdm

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 15:24

... and Peter Burton, a long-time associate ...

Oh dear... That doesn't instil much confidence :rolleyes:

#118 Julian Bronson

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 12:28

I presume you are referring to the Imola 2000 photo of Jost Wildbolz, Tony Stephens and John Ure. The lead car is R4A with R12B behind.

The #21 car was probably taken in 1975, and is also a different shade of blue. At the time it was owned jointly by David Kergon and Bill Morris. Crank spindles and handles can, of course, be added and removed depending on preferences.

The Imola 2000 Photo is Mac Hulbert Driving AJM1 wilst it was in our joint ownership

Julian Bronson

#119 Sharman

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 15:47

Thank you for confirming my thoughts Mr Bronson. I didn't like to open my mouth for fear of putting my foot in it I was sure it was Mac but not being an ERA expert deferred to more knowledgeable subscribers.

#120 Alan Cox

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 17:57

Thanks for the correction, Julian. I must admit that I didn't think AJM1 was with Peter Mann at the time, but the plain white helmet fooled me.

#121 arttidesco

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 21:57

During my research in to racing in Northern Rhodesia and Zambia today I stumbled across a wealth of photo's of racing in Southern Rhodesia now Zimbabwe, wonder if anyone knows which ERA is depicted in the link who ______ Brown is which track is being used and what might have happened to said ERA subsequently ?

#122 elansprint72

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 23:17

I've nearly finished reading "Amherst Villiers- the Man who Supercharged Bond", rather tedious in parts but some interesting stuff re ERA.

#123 David McKinney

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 06:14

During my research in to racing in Northern Rhodesia and Zambia today I stumbled across a wealth of photo's of racing in Southern Rhodesia now Zimbabwe, wonder if anyone knows which ERA is depicted in the link who ______ Brown is which track is being used and what might have happened to said ERA subsequently ?

The giveaway clue is the driver leaning on the wheel, clearly Peter Whitehead
The meeting is therefore most likely the 15/4/56 fixture at Marlborough Stadium, Salisbury, and the only ERA in southern Africa then was the ex-Gerard car R4A. It was owned by Jack McPhee of (then) Northern Rhodesia. I don't know who the driver might be, but one F A Brown had raced an MG Special in Southern Rhodesia in 1955
The car was subsequently raced by Southern Rhodesians Jimmy Shields and Jimmy de Villiers, ultimately with a V8 Chevrolet Corvette engine
It returned to the UK and has been a regular competitor in historic events since 1964

#124 arttidesco

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 07:43

Wow! Thanks David 'I know many things' McKinney, good to know R4A is in safe hands :clap:

An ERA with a V8 Chevrolet Corvette engine must have been a sight for sore eyes ?

Has anyone got any picture's ?

Reminds me of the story of the Shah of Iran's Bugatti which I believe also at one point played host to some Detroit Iron.

#125 arttidesco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 18:29

There were two ERA's at Prescott last weekend,

Terry Crabb in his ERA R12C in the up to 1500cc racing car class

and Donald Day (pictured) shared his R14B with Paul Richardson in the 3000 cc racing car class.

Unfortunately I did not get any times or results since I was only there on for the practice day.

Edited by arttidesco, 16 August 2010 - 13:05.

#126 Allan Lupton

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 18:33

Results are here if you scroll down to Prescott and click on the chequered flag symbol

#127 arttidesco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 18:41

Thanks Allan, looks like Terry won his class with a time of 42.89 and Paul came in 2nd in the up to 3000 cc class with a time of 41.99 :up:

Edited by arttidesco, 13 August 2010 - 18:41.

#128 David McKinney

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 19:22

I don't know what Paul Richardson looks like, but I'm pretty sure that's not Donald Day

#129 arttidesco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 22:22

David I am going on what the programme says, which I know is never the most reliable source, the notes indicate #305 Owner DH Day driver Paul Richardson, and #705 driver Donald Day.

Does anyone on TNF know Paul Richardson ?

#130 Geoff E

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 22:36

This may have been a different driver of R14B at Shelsley last month http://www.vscc.co.u...allery/1930.jpg

#163 was apparently Paul Richardson http://www.vscc.co.u...alResults10.pdf

Edited by Geoff E, 13 August 2010 - 22:38.

#131 arttidesco

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 23:09

Thanks Geoff E not a lot to go on there but the driver of #705 appears to wear glasses which might be the case with the driver of #163 seems odd but not wholly implausible that he has a completely different helmet and overalls and I'd hazard a guess the driver of #163 is a couple of inches taller than the driver of #705 though that might be an illusion.

#132 Alan Cox

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:42

This link was posted on the Prescott thread by fuzzi
http://www.sportscar...=1eAIR0ztzOs.C0
If you scroll on to photo no.99 you will see Donald in the car (wearing black overalls) while Paul Richardson stands by in blue overalls.

#133 Isetta

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:18

R14B Oulton Park 1981. Is that Donald Day in the white overalls? Whoever it is he let me help push start it in the mud!

Posted Image

Darn it how do you re-size photos?

Edited by Isetta, 14 August 2010 - 11:27.

#134 cdrewett

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 12:01

R14B Oulton Park 1981. Is that Donald Day in the white overalls? Whoever it is he let me help push start it in the mud!

In my copy of "The Motorist's Bedside Book" published by Batsford in 1962, there's a great photograph by Francis Penn entitled " a-hedging and a-ditching" which shows Sid Day's E.R.A. in the middle of a wild excursion at Oulton Park,with both rear wheels well off the ground, but it doesn't say which car or which year.
I could possibly scan it and post it but there might be copyright issues.
Chris

#135 David McKinney

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 12:04

If it was Sid Day it would have been R6B

#136 Allan Lupton

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 13:31

If it was Sid Day it would have been R6B

It's a well-known photo of Sid and he was quite proud of it!
Posted Image

Sid was a builder (in Dunstable I think) whose budget was limited so he shared the ERA's capital cost with others. He told me he could only afford one race per year, so he had two years off and three races in the same year as he found he needed the continuity - and he then had a reasonable time off for maintenance. Nice chap, Sid.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 14 August 2010 - 13:36.

#137 David McKinney

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 15:18

A Francis Penn photo from Autosport

I wonder where the site's other uncredited period shots are from?

#138 Allan Lupton

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 17:13

A Francis Penn photo from Autosport

I wonder where the site's other uncredited period shots are from?

Yes and perhaps I shouldn't have used it here . . .

#139 h4887

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 19:03

I believe Donald Day is recognisable by only having one arm.

#140 D-Type

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 19:11

I believe Donald Day is recognisable by only having one arm.

Presumably he could operate a preselector gearbox more easily than a conventional one. Which gives me the chance to ask "How did a preselector gearbox work?" - I mean from a driver's viewpoint - not the technicalities.

#141 longhorn

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 19:43

From a standstill you can select first on the quandrant, engage it by dipping the activation pedal, then select second on the quadrant, all whilst still stationary. Flooring the throttle will cause the car to take off in first and then dipping the activation pedal will engage second. And so on. On road cars the preselector box allowed people who couldn't double declutch to make noiseless changes. The only penalty is weight.

#142 arttidesco

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 02:03

Looks like my pic in post #127 of this thread is Donald Day as confirmed by Julian Hunt's post on the Predscott thread.

#143 Dutchy

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 12:07

Looks like my pic in post #127 of this thread is Donald Day as confirmed by Julian Hunt's post on the Predscott thread.

It is Donald Day. He does wear glasses on the rare occasions that he competes these days.

#144 arttidesco

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 13:04

Great to see Donald Day in his R14B at Loton Park at the weekend.

#145 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:35

While I was looking into the ERA Mini Turbo origins this morning I noticed that is was referred to as the ERA Type M.

Does anyone know if this was an official designation or is someone with an ERA Turbo being a cheeky chappy ?

I also noticed on the same page ERA were involved with the running of some Rootes vehicles I know the ERA company had been renamed since its halcyon days and had about as much if not considerably less in common than say the Multi Union did with an Alfa P3 but were these Rootes vehicles also given ERA letter designations ?

I suppose what I am really interested to determine is what were the ERA Types H to L if the M designation is correct for the Mini Turbo ?

Edited by arttidesco, 30 September 2010 - 13:57.

#146 Alan Cox

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:50

I think that the 'M' stands for Mini.

#147 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:56

Not necessarily any guarantee of authenticity, but JRW Barker's ERA book calls it the M-type.

#148 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 13:00

Not necessarily any guarantee of authenticity, but JRW Barker's ERA book calls it the M-type.

Thanks Alan & Vitesse2 does JRW Barker make any mention of Types H to L ?

#149 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 13:26

Thanks Alan & Vitesse2 does JRW Barker make any mention of Types H to L ?

No.

#150 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 13:56

No.

Thats a shame but hey ho, thanks for looking

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The E.R.A. thread

#101 arttidesco

#102 David McKinney

#103 Tim Murray

#104 arttidesco

#105 elansprint72

#106 Alan Cox

#107 arttidesco

#108 Dutchy

#109 Alan Cox

#110 arttidesco

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#114 Tim Murray

#115 Ralf Pickel

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#123 David McKinney

#124 arttidesco

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