Dick Seaman TV programme - UK Channel 4

Will C4 be repeating it in the near future?

I must admit - the opening narration had me cringing. But it did pick up and was an enjoyable programme. The announcers commentary over the credits had me hooting with laughter though. "And there's a Channel 4 book about Hitler's SS..." Yup, very relevant to racing with the silver arrows.

Originally posted by petefenelon
Started off terribly, but the more of Chris Nixon, Tom Wheatcroft and DCN the better it got - and some of the archive footage was pretty good. On the whole - a program that started terribly and became very watchable when it concerned itself with racing.

100% agreement here. I honestly was expecting the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. And as soemone for whom this era is well before my time, I actually learned a few things too. Not a bad effort at all.

Just to add my comments, I thought the programme was well done too, plenty of choice contributions from many well known faces.

There will always be omissions in a 50 minute biography programme, but they did a pretty good job, and if anyone's interest is piqued they can always find out the detail from any of the books.

My only complaint would be the choice of voice-over man, didn't catch who it was but his drab monotone delivery didn't exactly bring the script to life!

- Michael

Surprisingly good! - Well done to all involved. Archive shots and colour footage excellent
- Danny

Excellent

My fears proved unfounded. Wonder if it will be produced on a DVD?

Call me a pedant, but my faith in the programme was marred by repeated references to "von Brauvitsch", and the tautological "fellow team-mates", which grated with me at least three times. At least the narrator didn't say "fellow team-mate colleagues"

A pretty good show, all in all. I think that we have to accept that to engage the larger audience, the story had to be put in context, and of course be given a bit of drama by playing up the Nazi part. Although to be fair, the Nazi part was rather integral to the story. Personally I don't mind programme makers using a worm to catch more fish, if it brings more viewers into the fold and we get more programmes on our favourite subject as a result. Excellent stuff from Doug, Nixon, Surtees and Wheatcroft, and the various contemporaries. A big to C4 and to all concerned.

Now, the big question of the day must be - was our Douglas wearing his TNF badge? As he was pictured in "talking head" mode, we couldn't see, but I like to think that he was....

Just add my positive tuppence. The programme demonstrated once again how the overwhelming passion of motorsport can estrange you from those once held dear. Also that love crosses many boundaries, not only in his personal life but in his career.

Well done to all. Whilst some might consider the Nazi focus to be superfluous (I personally hated the title), it was pretty integral to the story.

Agree with most of the comments, I found the programme very enjoyable.
I was also surprised to hear Doug voicing the paint-scraping story - I was sure it had been dismissed as a myth in this forum.

And OT, the Spitfire prog was great as well.

Meant to ask earlier - who the heck is Max Turner?

Originally posted by David McKinney
Meant to ask earlier - who the heck is Max Turner?

Phew....it wasn't just me then.....

Originally posted by petefenelon
T'other half has just informed me that DCN reminds her of John Peel.

Originally posted by David Beard
Interesting: every time I see John Peel I think of DCN. Neither should feel insulted....

And John Peel was talking about Rosemeyer on his Saturday morning radio programme the other week. Is Doug into indie music, I wonder?

I also agree with most of what's been said - an excellent programme with a few flaws. (Did we really have to have scene after scene of some actress reconstructing Mrs Seaman writing cheques?)

I assumed that I was just ignorant not to have heard of Max Turner, but if the Davids also don't know who he is . . .

DCN didn't know either (coundn't reply to that private message Doug - your mailbox was full!).


I guessed that he might be a Brooklands chappie and dug Bod off the shelf - there is an R M Turner mentioned once!!! as having driven a Riley there in 1939.

Could it be him?

Originally posted by Garagiste
Agree with most of the comments, I found the programme very enjoyable.
I was also surprised to hear Doug voicing the paint-scraping story - I was sure it had been dismissed as a myth in this forum.

Dismissed, disparaged and disbelieved but not (quite) yet disproved!

I had no idea who Max Turner was either, but wasn't old Tom Delaney looking chipper?

thoroughly enjoyed it but I'm sure that one of the "onboard" ERA shots was accompanied by the Ferrari V12 soundtrack from the old "Grand Prix" album...or was that just my imagination ?

I enjoyed it , but the lowest common denominator voice over was really annoying - thanks to Doug we knew before that there was going to be the stupid, "written out of history" rubbish, but try asking any pleb in your office about Vanwall and they will look at you with the same glazed over confusion as if you asked them about Seaman. I'm suprised they didnt talk up the half hearted Nazi salute, surely that was done with contempt..

As for Porsche creating Auto Union....or the rest of Europe being kept in the dark about the AU and MB creations...utter tripe, the huge crowds at donningto in 37/38 were becasue of the huge expectationof these cars arriving in England...if they didnt know about them then how could they be excited about them

Fantastic footage though, I realy enjoyed teh pics of the AUs sliding about the 'Ring and Donnigton. Was suprised there was no modern footage of teh remaining cars and replicas....

My Mrs kept pointing at Doug and Chris Nixon and saying that I have made them rich by buying all those books.....I disagree I think their dedication has made my life richer (how sentimental is that)

I enjoyed the programme - some great footage - especially of the avus circuit. Whenever I see that shot looking down on the banking with all the spectators crammed in the infield I always get a few butterflies knowing that my Grandfather is standing down there taking some of the photos I now have of the race.

I believe Ken Morse is now a company name - I hope this isn't too disappointing for those of you who picture a wisened old man, with cross eyes bent over a rostrum in a cellar somewhere.

I believe Ken Morse is now a company name - I hope this isn't too disappointing for those of you who picture a wisened old man, with cross eyes bent over a rostrum in a cellar somewhere.

Not exactly wizened - but Ken Morse really does exist

http://www.thestage....s/rostrum.shtml

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
Paul, as I am in the U.S. and thus was unable to see the program, and with a passing knowledge of the Seaman story, I would sincerely appreciate your offer if you would kindly make it available. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would download this documentary.

Many thanks. Sounds like a great production.

I'll probably be able to make it PM available via my forum, and if you DESPARATELY dont want to sign up, then please PM me here and I'll send you the link. It'll be compressed into various smaller files (WinRAR files), so it may be a good idea to try and get hold of it soon

So, if you could possibly PM me (my username is PTRACER) at www.crasherama.dk,, and I will make the link available to you I hope Doug doesn't mind me distrubuting these videos of him I'm not going to be able to make it available until Sunday at the earliest, as it's a big file And we have other videos to take offline ;)

Not many Atlas members are members there But, it would be good to get some good discussions started. I'm a nostalgic person, however, there's not enough knowledgeable members there to talk about anything really decent.

It'd be good to get members who can say things like: "What was your opinion on the great Tazio Nuvolari?" because it's something I can get into more then

Some rules are a little harsh, I know...but it's mainly to stop people from 'leeching' our videos ;) Not all rules will apply to members of AtlasF1, as you're all a little more '(trust)worthy' shall I say

Sorry if I'm promoting my site...but these videos are currently online

Freddie Spencer 500cc GP Bike Champion Demo - by Warren

Targa New Zealand 2003 - by Warren

Porschecup 2003, Round 3 - by Warren

1959 WSC 1st Round: Sebring, Sandy MacArthur's Crash - by Warren and Jesper
- Colour version of the sportscar spinning in the rain, and hitting the bridge support post; Sebring 1959. Many other small incidents from this race included.

Motorsport and Auto Adverts - by Warren
- Triumph TR7 Advert currenlty online.

Victory By Design: The 1939 German GP - by Warren

1961 FIA GT Cup 6th Round: Goodwood Tourist Trophy - by Warren and Jesper

1989 FIA WSC 8th Round: Mexico, Kenny Acheson's Crash - by PTRACER and Jesper

'turdracer's' Requests - by PTRACER
- Brian Redman: Happy Halloween!
- clank_OWWW!: Jordan pitcrew man injured during interview about F1 safety, after Firman's big Hungary 2003 crash.
- Ozzy Osborne's Canada 2003 Interview

Thanks for reading

Oh, that "Clank - OW!" interview was priceless!

Originally posted by Tim Murray


And John Peel was talking about Rosemeyer on his Saturday morning radio programme the other week. Is Doug into indie music, I wonder?

Ah well could they both be one and the same person ? Interesting that they have never been seen together !

It was a splendid piece of TV we were lucky to get an hour on that subject in such depth and such high quality.

It would I am sure help in getting future such programmes made if those of us who enjoyed it sent a word of thanks and encouragement to channel 4 . You can all do this directly on to the feedback form they provide on :-

www.channel4.com/about_c4/comments/tv_enquiries.cfm

Coo - d'you think they got away with most of it then?

I was intensely irritated by the start of the piece - all that tosh about 'written out of history' etc - my heart absolutely SANK...........

But in retrospect perhaps one might give the producers a break on this one - it's virtually compulsory that some such untruth-cum-exaggeration HAS to be sewn into the first few feet of any programme covering a not generally understood subject (unlike Nazis in general/sharks/Spitfires/fishing/cooking/DIY) in order to give know-nothing TV Channel commissioning editors the assurance that here is something saleable to a public audience, thereby makiing the programme justifiable should they purchase it (remember all these berks spend their professional lives mainly covering their backs).

It annoyed me that the out of focus actor representing Dick Seaman had a round, chubby face instead of the long, lean, lofty look which would have been marginally 'less unconvincing'...

I was intrigued as to why the Lilian Beattie-Seaman figure should apparently always wear her hat indoors - galloping alopecia perhaps...or no central heating???

The v/o (voice-over commentary) line claiming that Dr Porsche founded Auto Union was indeed pretty spectacularly accurate....as was 'my' story about the paint-scraping origin of the silver livery. Yeah but - it's amazing what people can appear to say when prefix and suffix reservations are conveniently snipped out of what was actually said.

"For years the legend held it that..." blah di blah di blah "...but that's largely just typical Neubauer-balls from his memoirs...". Cut - cut. In this case - why include such a story in any case? That stems from 1934 and Dick didn't join the team until 1937...

As Tony Blair would put it "I stand by the totality of what I said".... politicians
Come the glorious day, they and TV commissioning editors will all be fired off on the same space ship towards the outermost arm of the galaxy...

Why did they film the cream-painted ERA instead of Nick Mason's Seaman-black liveried example housed alongside it - and Dick's car in period was of course...black?

Why - when pandering to some extent to C4's Nazi fixation - was the opportunity missed to explore subsequently expressed notions that Dick was a British spy, bumped off by the SS after smuggling out details of the latest Merc aero engine on micro dots, hand-sewn by Erica into the fly-buttons of a serbo-croatian itinerant knife-grinder? I'll hold my hands up on this one - having insisted loudly that such notions are total Horlicks and they should not even go there.

And Finally - the 'what if' syndrome.

What If we had actually been given a preview of the finished-edit before transmission? Well - we might have been able at least to get the major misinformation corrected. But C4's commission contracts expressly forbid any such previewing - other than to the press reviewers. Perhaps you'll agree with me that some people in the TV industry are just missing the point?

Generally - given all the above - I thought the producer and director did pretty well...

John Peel ( )

PS - And I, too, am trying to find out more about racing driver Max Turner...

Well, Doug, we can always get a copy of the program, remove the audio, and let you do the voice over again, yourself Correct any bad information

Originally posted by bill moffat
thoroughly enjoyed it but I'm sure that one of the "onboard" ERA shots was accompanied by the Ferrari V12 soundtrack from the old "Grand Prix" album...or was that just my imagination ?

On closing down my computer, I have the sound of a 1958 Testa-Rossa, complete with a nice "whoop" blip.

When I heard the ERA, I thought it sounded rather familiar; perhaps Mays really did build the V12 ERA after all?

PdeRL

Struggling with Max Turner here too - I don't think it's Brooklands driver RM Turner, because he was occasionally referred to in period as Reg Turner. There was a GM Turner who raced an MG on one occasion there in 1939...

Just wondering, where abouts in Sussex was Richard Seaman born . I live in Hampshire and visit friends in Bognor Regis so i know some of the area.

I thought it was OK, although the 'being airbrushed from history' line did grate somewhat. Perhaps that's the price you pay these days for getting stuff on the TV. If it hadn't been presented that way, then it might not have got on air?? I'm a bit dubious (to say the least) about the current trend for 're-inactments' in documentaries, I'm much better off with archive material. Saying that, there was some glorious stuff in there, probably culled from 'Nixon's Silver Arrows films?? I did sport some on-board round the Ring / Hermann Lang stuff culled from a recent MFQ tho!!!

Originally posted by Hse289
Just wondering, where abouts in Sussex was Richard Seaman born . I live in Hampshire and visit friends in Bognor Regis so i know some of the area.

From Chris Nixons book Shooting Star, Mr Beattie-Seaman bought Aldingbourne House, near Chichester, Sussex, possibly in 1911, but certainly before Richard was born in 1913, they moved a year or so after Richards birth to Kentwall hall in Suffolk. In Jan 1919 they moved to No3 Ennismore Gardens, Prince's Gate London, but retained kentwall for holidays.

Princes Gate?? Now there's a coincidence.....................

Originally posted by Doug Nye

I was intensely irritated by the start of the piece - all that tosh about 'written out of history' etc - my heart absolutely SANK...........


Glad to know it wasn't just the rest of us


Why - when pandering to some extent to C4's Nazi fixation - was the opportunity missed to explore subsequently expressed notions that Dick was a British spy, bumped off by the SS after smuggling out details of the latest Merc aero engine on micro dots, hand-sewn by Erica into the fly-buttons of a serbo-croatian itinerant knife-grinder? I'll hold my hands up on this one - having insisted loudly that such notions are total Horlicks and they should not even go there.


Hmmm - sounds more like that novel on 'Williams' that appeared and disappeared last year ;)


Generally - given all the above - I thought the producer and director did pretty well...


I've talked about the programme with various friends who have varying degrees of interest in contemporary racing - fortunately they seemed to also recognise the melodramatic crud at the start for what it was and enjoyed the archive footage and "expert" contributions. So it looks like, to paraphrase American movie credits, "no reputations were harmed in the making of this film".;)




John Peel ( )

PS - And I, too, am trying to find out more about racing driver Max Turner...

I think we all are now ;)

I like this "Max Turner" fellow more and more.

His really does seem to be "a story that's been written out of history" :

So how to follow that then, perhaps a BRM documentary next? The goings-on behind the scenes at Bourne, as alluded to in the 'Folkingham' thread, would seem to provide plenty of juicy material for the Channel 4 luvvies to get their teeth into.....

Originally posted by dolomite
So how to follow that then, perhaps a BRM documentary next? The goings-on behind the scenes at Bourne, as alluded to in the 'Folkingham' thread, would seem to provide plenty of juicy material for the Channel 4 luvvies to get their teeth into.....

Oh heavens - it'd be like a cross between Queer As Folk and Brideshead Revisited!

(Mind you, they could reuse the ERA shots from last night's show for Part 1 of the programme, couldn't they?;))

Originally posted by Gary C
I I'm much better off with archive material. Saying that, there was some glorious stuff in there, probably culled from 'Nixon's Silver Arrows films??

Gary !!"^$&$^£$£"%%*()(*)^*^£%^T(**U_)()+_+_(I(U&T%$£"£$"$DTCHJRE£Q"$£"£%^%
@:@>:>:><:>:>::!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know, I know!! Just trying to wind you up - I wondered how long it would take!!!!!!

Originally posted by Mark A
Mr Beattie-Seaman bought Aldingbourne House, near Chichester, Sussex, (where) Richard was born in 1913

If you drive past Goodwood motor circuit towards Chichester and pop out via the roundabouts onto the main east-west coast road towards Arundell - Aldingbourne House comes into view over the barrier to the left, a large white country house with extensive almost colonial-style verandah along the frontage facing across the circa quarter-mile of lawns to the road. That's Dick Seaman's birthplace. I think it's a private retirement home today.

DCN

PS - Much amused by TFBundy's immensely acute observation! Spot on mate.

PPS - For Allen Brown - the beard actually spent six weeks in obedience class first.

PPPS - Hmm - run a 'Backs to the Wall at Bourne' scenario past Channel 4 execs and I'd swear a huge majority would regard it as a wind-up - and a dashed exciting one at that...

PS4 - From the programme makers: "Max Turner was a Donington driver in the mid 30's. Never raced abroad - pretty small scale stuff, but part of the British scene even so. Now lives in
Derbyshire on the Chatsworth estate." - now we know?

Originally posted by Doug Nye


PPPS - Hmm - run a 'Backs to the Wall at Bourne' scenario past Channel 4 execs and I'd swear a huge majority would regard it as a wind-up - and a dashed exciting one at that...

PS4 - From the programme makers: "Max Turner was a Donington driver in the mid 30's. Never raced abroad - pretty small scale stuff, but part of the British scene even so. Now lives in
Derbyshire on the Chatsworth estate." - now we know?

I suppose that the programme about BRM would start, instead of the so-called Nazi salute, with archive footage showing the Silverstone disaster and blowing it up for all it was worth.

There would then be dark hints about how RM wanted to make a British Mercedes [insert archive footage with RM talking to Neubauer etc.]

On the other hand we could have a hazy re-enactment of a soft-focus RM taking his place in the stalls at the Theatre Royal - and a soft focus PB with longish hair looking manly on his yacht etc., etc.

I too was curious about Mr Turner; in my local in Chiswick, having a drink after returning from a VSCC meeting, there was a chap who looked remarkably like Mr Turner, wearing a blazer with a BRDC badge - I wonder if it could have been he?

PdeRL

Like most people I thought the programme was 3 minutes of Grade A tripe followed by a quality attempt to explain the Seaman racing story.

Some of my Petrolhead buddies missed it - does anyone know whether it is going to be repeated or released on video ?.

cheers,

G.

More to the point, will we see it here?

I wouldn't hold my breath, of course.

My video recorder taped the first twelve minutes and then switched itself off at the first ad break.

Tarnation!!!

Waiting for the repeat now - maybe it will turn up on Discovery.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Why - when pandering to some extent to C4's Nazi fixation - was the opportunity missed to explore subsequently expressed notions that Dick was a British spy, bumped off by the SS after smuggling out details of the latest Merc aero engine on micro dots, hand-sewn by Erica into the fly-buttons of a serbo-croatian itinerant knife-grinder? I'll hold my hands up on this one - having insisted loudly that such notions are total Horlicks and they should not even go there.

Doug, I hope You won't mind me 'nit-picking', but seeing I hear such atrocity as 'serbo-croatian' when referencing to people for second time in relatively short period of time (first being on some American TV show) I will 'protest'. There is no such thing as 'serbo-croatian' (even in language terms)- Croats and Serbs are two completely different nations, with completely different religions, cultures, languages (this less so, but still different languages)... Those nations even ethnicaly belong to different groups (neither are Slaws actually).

Originally posted by Doug Nye
....as was 'my' story about the paint-scraping origin of the silver livery. Yeah but - it's amazing what people can appear to say when prefix and suffix reservations are conveniently snipped out of what was actually said.

"For years the legend held it that..." blah di blah di blah "...but that's largely just typical Neubauer-balls from his memoirs...". Cut - cut. In this case - why include such a story in any case? That stems from 1934 and Dick didn't join the team until 1937...

I'm confused now - so is the well-known story about the paint coming off to save weight complete Neubauer fiction? If so, why did German racing cars go from white to unpainted?

Also, where/who does the term "Silver Arrows" come from? Doesn't it date from some time after the war, not contemporary as implied in the v/o?

Cheers,
- Michael

I really enjoyed this prog (and so did the wife - surprisingly!) and didn't think they over-did the lowbrow stuff too much.......good to see the likes of Doug on our screens (although i too was shocked to see the white paint story retold - editors pah!)

Lovely old footage to watch again and again thanks to my cheap but perfectly working VCR!

Cheers fellas!

Hands up, who would like another of those channel 4 6hour long motor racing nostalgia studio discussion all through the night evenings?

With a series of old films with analysis in between with a group of interesting motoring historians. We had one in '97 and another in '98 since then nothing .

You need to tell channel 4 on:- www.channel4.com/about_c4/comments/tv_enquiries.cfm

They probably work on statisical response to programmes, so if we all gave them some feedback it might just be enough to get someone there interested.

! !

and i've never heard of these?

please tell me someone has them on video? - Emlyn?

Originally posted by RTH
Hands up, who would like another of those channel 4 6hour long motor racing nostalgia studio discussion all through the night evenings?

With a series of old films with analysis in between with a group of interesting motoring historians. We had one in '97 and another in '98 since then nothing .

You need to tell channel 4 on:- www.channel4.com/about_c4/comments/tv_enquiries.cfm

They probably work on statisical response to programmes, so if we all gave them some feedback it might just be enough to get someone there interested.

I would like to see a rerun of Stirling Moss night. The amount of interesting stuff in that program was unbelievable. I lost the tape of it years ago Would be interesting to see again

Originally posted by MichaelJP


I'm confused now - so is the well-known story about the paint coming off to save weight complete Neubauer fiction? If so, why did German racing cars go from white to unpainted?

Also, where/who does the term "Silver Arrows" come from? Doesn't it date from some time after the war, not contemporary as implied in the v/o?

Cheers,
- Michael

Have a look at these old threads:

Paint stripping:

http://forums.atlasf...ifelrennen 1934

Silver Arrows:

http://forums.atlasf...t=Silver arrows

Breadmaster -


just for reference, the first one included:
Roman Polanski's "Weekend of a Champion" (following JYS through the weekend of the '71 Monaco GP).
"Nine days of Summer" (the story behind the DFV).
"Seig Rekord Meisterschaft" (1938-39 with Mercedes).
"Secret Lives: Colin Chapman" (a warts-and-all and then yet more warts documentary with lots of anecdotes)
Maybe another film I've forgotten about.
The films were interspersed with chat and reminiscences among, Alain de Cadanet, Nigel Roebuck, DCN, Richard Williams and filmmaker Brian Johnston.


the second one "An evening with Striling Moss", included:
"Being Stirling Moss".
"Masterclass" (a few laps of Donington with Moss).
"1958 GP season".
"A guide to 50s style".
"1955 TT at Dundrod".
"1953 Mille Miglia".
"Two laps of honour".
"The rear-engined revolution".
(some of those are my descriptions, rather than actual titles).
Interspersed with chat amongst Moss, Roebuck, DCN, Richard Williams and Peter Windsor.


Both were marvellously entertaining.

Originally posted by 2F-001
Both were marvellously entertaining.

The chats were in some ways even better than the footage, it was like eavesdropping the best pub conversation ever. And we can practically replicate the effect thanks to the internet thingy and the ever-willing contributors here.