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Most "Replicated: Cars

Started by David Birchall , Mar 26 2004 00:09

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23 replies to this topic

#1 David Birchall

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 00:09

I asked this question on the Ausin Healey 100S at LeMans thread but think it deserves its own:
Which cars do you think have been the most replicated and why?

Two parts to this question:

1. Cars that could pass as the real thing-and may have passed as the real thing!
Various 205Fs and D Types should come to some minds.

2. Cars that look like the real thing but a basic inspection by someone with reasonable knowledge can "Out" as a fake.
Your neighbours "Cobra" with the fibreglas body, square tube chassis and Chevy engine.

David B

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#2 WDH74

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:37

Racing Bugattis pop into my head, as I've heard of cars being "rebuilt" from one or two parts bearing the chassis number and a bunch of replicated parts. Similarly to VDP bodied Bentley roadsters-there seem to be an awful lot of Bentleys that look like the LeMans racers. Not strictly replicas, but rebodied to look like a certain car. Perhaps not so widespread is the rebuilding of Jaguar E-Types to resemble the Lightweight cars, or the Low Drag coupes.

-William

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#3 dretceterini

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 02:06

.....and of the 70 or so Ferrari Daytona conv'ts built, only 2000 exist.... :drunk:

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#4 T54

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 02:51

Lotus 23's, Chevron B19's and B21's made in Belgium, Cooper T53's from Sid Hoole's assembly line, Ferrari P of all types, Porsche 906's...

When there is a dollar there is a will.

T54

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#5 scags

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 03:36

something like a plastic Cobra is bad enough, but the trouble starts when you have three cars claiming to be original- one with the cylinder head, one with the front of the body, and one with the engine block. A big time US car shop is selling an Alfa, and I think it was built up from the back axle and the tachometer needle.

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#6 dbw

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 04:12

under #2 the porsche 550 spyder is almost right up there with the cobra kits.....chuck beck started the ball rolling in the late '70s and now there several suppliers of both kits and turnkey cars...as partial fallout of the speedster-on-a-vw-pan movement,a lot of early porsche tidbits are now easily available...as a builder/owner myself :blush:

i find it a fun car to drive and work on...except for the lack of a four-cam engine, the kits can be built surprisingly close to the real thing [if you want them to be] i have an early vw front end,swing axle rear,double tube frame [very auto-unionish] 356A alloy drums, 16X 3.125 porsche wheels, real skinny tires,short plexi screen...with a 85 hp pushrod vw engine it's a hoot [in a' 50s sort of way]...the more common approach [usually by the younger guys] is to install a turbo-charged 240 hp scat motor with 4 wheel disc brakes,alloy rims and fat modern tires..some go as far as to install irs,dedion,coilovers etc...really not much of a 550 by then.[but neither is a cobra with a jag irs and a pinto front suspension!!]

and by the way..i love how the guys in the uk complain of bitsa bugattis as the likes of [unnamed] builds VDP bentleys as fast as the chassis can be "found"..;)

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#7 David Birchall

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 05:06

Originally posted by dbw
[
and by the way..i love how the guys in the uk complain of bitsa bugattis as the likes of [unnamed] builds VDP bentleys as fast as the chassis can be "found"..;) [/B]

Core, I wonder who he means!!

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#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 05:14

There are lots of Rennmax-built cars that look for all the world like Brabhams and Lotuses...

And, of course, many replacement chassis built by Rennmax are now considered to be genuine Lotus 23s...

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#9 rdrcr

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 05:27

I'd say the #1 most replicated car would be the Cobra... Most are crap but a few builders turn out some worthy cars.

The Porsche Speedster has got to be up there too. I think it's way more popular than the 550 Spyder. I was under the impression that the Beck series of 550's were quite authentic looking on the outside and if the customer wanted, underneath as well. I didn't realize the 550 was turned out in such numbers. The Speedster replicas were easy to be dumped on bug chassis and bolted down in a weekend and I've got to think they've been in production at least as long...

Next and neck and neck with the replica Speedster would be the '32 / '34 Ford Coupe / Roadster. I wonder how many hot rods have been built in the past 30 years with those Fiberglass bodies, square tube chassis and the perenial 350 / 350 combination from Chevy?

Originally posted by scags"... A big time US car shop is selling an Alfa, and I think it was built up from the back axle and the tachometer needle."

Whom might that be? It's one thing to recreate (remanufacture) a car using a few orignal parts, quite another to call it that car. Is that what happened here?

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#10 rdrcr

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 05:46

Almost forgot the Auburn Speedster mostly done in the 80's. Based on a cut down Lincoln chassis with the 490 engine, they had plenty of go and rode well. Though the fit and finish of 90% of them would have made the true enthusiast embarrassed to be seen in one and the 4 passenger rendition was a real abomination. There had to be 10,000 of them made in the 80's and I'll bet that they still turn out dozens a year at least - placing that car in the top five as most popular replica ever produced.

The most popular cars that have been "reproduced" should include the D-Type as mentioned and also perhaps the C-Type as the most respected companies doing those cars have lots of 'X' based Jags to scavenge parts from. Many I've seen, are fully handmade in aluminum, original type gauges and other eye-sensitive trim and are just beautiful when finished.

Ferraris of various types, Lotus Super 7's of varying degrees of authenticity, Lancia 50's of course, Packard Boattail Speedsters were being done at the rate of 2 a year for a while, etc. etc. - all of them are up there in popularity and production number.

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#11 T54

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 16:09

In fact I don't mind anyone building anything he likes as long as proper representation is made. Problem is, it is rarely done especially on cars that began as a discarded engine block and a rusty frame rail, or even worse as I personally witnessed, a simple "missing" serial number of a car that was terminally smashed. I can think of a fairly recent Aston Martin P214... and lots of Porsche 906 and 910's.
The production of Bugatti T35 out of England is also something else, and years of use fog the origins. Nener mind the dozens of bogus Lotus 23's.

A few years back and as a pun, I created a "Certificate of Origin" form in which one would answer questions and upon the submission of $20.00, could get authentic testimony from the following luminaries, regardless if they were even still alive:

A. Barth
B. Barth
J. Barth
Bubble Barth

The whole form went that way if you see what I mean. We had a lot of fun then while dozens of fake and bogus "restorations" were brought to our shop for expert metal or glass work by the "restorers" themselves who of course, had no other talent than providing the required lies.

Regards,

T54

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#12 bill moffat

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 17:04

I welcome them all as long as they are not faking originality and pay homage to the "donor". I'm sure that we have all seen replica GT40s/P4's/Cobras/C types and even 917s that look, sound and go like the original.

My hang up is when the proportions are distorted or the powerplant is inappropriate. There are some hideous C and D-type replicas out there and as for Pinto powered Cobras and Beetle powered Dino 246's....

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#13 T54

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 17:30

My hang up is when the proportions are distorted or the powerplant is inappropriate. There are some hideous C and D-type replicas out there and as for Pinto powered Cobras and Beetle powered Dino 246's....

I say, call the Taliban and have their heads cut off.

Of course, you WILL have some horrors out there. May I see the paintings hanging in your own home to make an aesthetic decision? :smoking:

Unfortunately, the love of fine cars does not mean that replicators have good taste or visual talent.

Best regards,
T54

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#14 panzani

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 17:43

Here in Brazil there are lots of Porsches, specially 550 spyders, but they can not pass a very basic inspection, IMO.
They are all replicas even though some owners state they are the real thing...

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#15 ray b

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 19:02

Originally posted by panzani
Here in Brazil there are lots of Porsches, specially 550 spyders, but they can not pass a very basic inspection, IMO.
They are all replicas even though some owners state they are the real thing...

I have no problem with the BECK-550 and other re-pro cars with the current price of real 550
a BECK is the only way I could ever hope to own one and a good use of a rusted out 914 or even a VW
but as an american in the HOT ROD tradision I would use all the latest goodies inc wide tyres and wheels and think drum brakes are best left to the junk pile of history

the grampaw of the kit car re-pro is the 23 t bucket there must be more of them then any other
as you could buy a f/g body and cromemoly frame,for the model T before the cobra was for sale new at the ford dealers.

I agree the owners, are the problem with FAKES, but think a good re-pro car, if presented as what it is
is an addition to the pool of interesting cars, and in an era of the econo-box there are too few interesting cars

btw a buddy in 1967 cut up a Healey 100s to swap in a chevy v8 and only when he cut out the rear fenders
to allow bigger tyres did he know it was an old racer as the alloy body cut like butter but at the time it was just an other old car and who knew the future values

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#16 dretceterini

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 19:24

Quote:

A big time US car shop is selling an Alfa, and I think it was built up from the back axle and the tachometer needle.

Can you be more specific (at least to the car, if not as to what shop)?

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#17 scags

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 19:39

The Alfa I refered to is 8c 2900B, serial # 412021. On Symbolic motors' web site, they tell the story of the car. After it was in a barn that burned to the ground in the 70's, the remains were bulldozed into a hole in the ground. Twenty some odd years later, they were dug up, and a car built from what was left. The site shows a picture of some VERY twisted, rusted metal, and the only recognizable thing is the back axle. They aren't hiding anything, but I can't see how you can call the beautiful car they're selling the same Alfa that came out of the factory.

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#18 rdrcr

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 19:58

The site shows a picture of some VERY twisted, rusted metal, and the only recognizable thing is the back axle. They aren't hiding anything, but I can't see how you can call the beautiful car they're selling the same Alfa that came out of the factory.

Ahhh yes, that one.... Well, IMO, there are several parts that are recognizable, but I get your point... It's not the "original car", though it is the same car... Throughout its remanufacturing / restoration, I'd imagine there are tolerances on the car that are more exacting than was original.

Still, it's the same car and deserves its record of provenance and the related entry price of ownership.

I add... It is a shame that they didn't reproduce the exact bodywork as original but it is a fine job nontheless.

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#19 David McKinney

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 00:36

When this car first appeared in the UK I asked Rodney Felton if it was real and he said, No, it was a replica. That from the man who had dug it up and 'reconstructed' it

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#20 David Birchall

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 01:49

When I saw the photos of that Alfa chassis being dragged out of the undergrowth I must admit I wondered about the credibility of the outcome.

The leading (Read wealthy) collectors-and some of the more anally retentive motoring journalists-frown on replicas. But who said we cannot have prints of VanGough or Picasso or Rembrandt? If the replicas are passed off as the real thing then there is a problem but if nobody is being fooled...?

Personally I would love a replica of a 250 GTO or SWB, based on a 250 GTE or similiar Ferrari. But then I have a penchant for 3 Litre coupes. I love "Works" Healeys, Aston GTs (yeah I know), Lightweight E types etc. I own an Aston DB2 that I have "souped up" to try to get that extra "Aura of Wreak" because I will never own even a replica GTO. We all deserve to live our dreams don't we? Even if they are cardboard cut-outs

Regards, David B

ps Have another glass of wine before you respond...

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#21 T54

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 03:08

I'd like a VanGough myself after a glass of wine... :drunk:

T54

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#22 scags

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 12:59

I have no problem with replicas, as long as they aren't passed off as the real thing. I think it makes more sense to race them, instead of possibly destroying an original, one of a kind piece of history. On the other hand, I bet the owners of real shelbys get pissed when everyone assumes their cars are fake.

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#23 lanciaman

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 13:42

Originally posted by bill moffat

My hang up is when the proportions are distorted or the powerplant is inappropriate. There are some hideous C and D-type replicas out there and as for Pinto powered Cobras and Beetle powered Dino 246's....

The lumpish A-H "Sebring" with its Schwarzenegger fender flares and Ford or Chevy engine comes to mind as one of the more visually unsuccessful continuations of a beautiful car.

Ultimately, if the thing is fun to drive and you don't try to pass it off as the Real Thing, then replicate away. But plastic Daytonas with real Ferrari badging ought to subject someone -- including owner and "builder"-- to severe finger wagging.

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#24 550spyder

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 23:41

Originally posted by panzani
Here in Brazil there are lots of Porsches, specially 550 spyders, but they can not pass a very basic inspection, IMO.
They are all replicas even though some owners state they are the real thing...

You are right. There are no original spyders in Brazil now, I believe there were 3 in the 50's . One, that belonged to the late Christian "Binno" Heins was modified by Emerson and Wilson Fittipaldi to make the Fitti-Porsche. The car was sold to Sergio Magalhães that changed the engine and gearbox to a VW unit. The car was sold and disapeared.

I like the shape and the dynamics of the Spyder. I assembled one myself and race prepared it. It is a very light car and simple. VW engine, 1600 cc, compression ratio 13,5 to 1, running on methanol, engle cam and 40 mm Webers. Gearbox is normal VW. Price: less than US$ 5.000,00. Performance is very good and the car reaches 117 miles per hour in Interlagos finishing line. I won the Classic Light Championship of 2003 with it. Lot of affordable fun.

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