Now and then in the forum topics I recall seeing a book mentioned that I believe is "Time and Two Seats" which evidently has a lot of historic race results in its pages. Could someone enlighten me on the correct title, what it contains and how to obtain a copy? Thanks.
Time and Two Wheels Book
Started by
teegeefla
, Nov 08 2004 19:38
30 replies to this topic
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#2
teegeefla
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Posted 08 November 2004 - 19:42
My bad typing...I think it is "Time and Two Seats"?
#4
teegeefla
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Posted 08 November 2004 - 22:35
kpy- I checked the links but I am not sure if there is one volume on F1 and one on the other types of racing or if all that is covered in a 2 volume set. Thanks for the help.
#5
Vitesse2
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Posted 08 November 2004 - 22:54
"Time and two seats" covers only sports car racing: it's the sports car equivalent of Paul Sheldon's Black Books, which cover GP, F1, Voiturettes and F2.
#6
harryglorydays
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 00:40
"Time and Two Seats" is THE definitive book on endurance racing. Janos Wimpffen is the author and can be reached directly at:
email: jlwmrg@earthlink.net
The review of the book at www.dailysportscar.com reads:
"Time and Two Seats - Five Decades of Long Distance Racing
János Wimpffen
At one point we thought Janos was adding so much detail to these two volumes, the racing was taking place faster than he could keep up with it: there seemed a real danger that he’d put off publication one more year – and end up two behind.
He finally drew the line at 1998, so if it’s recent years you’re after, you’ll have to wait for the next volume – and we’re not sure when that will be. These two volumes will keep you busy enough though. Over 2000 pages in each, with race reports and finely crafted – and amazingly detailed – results for each event.
Janos tells the story of each race in his own, carefully chosen words: each report is his account of each race, written in a charming style, easy to read, but with all the important features included.
It’s not just reports and results though: he sets the scene for each year, explaining how the structure of sportscar racing is changing at any one time, and then completes his 45 year story with the most amazing collection of “data”. He really is “Mr. Data”, whether it be the chassis number of the winning car at Sebring in 1961 (it was 0792), Luciano Galluzzo’s pseudonym (which was “Stradivarius”) or the length of the Silverstone circuit which was used for the 1000 Km race in 1988 (it was 2.969 miles).
As an example of the depth of this ‘bible’, there is even a 12 page chapter explaining the tables in the rest of the books
For example: “Qualified refers to the total number of cars allotted grid positions whether or not they started. Exception: a car allotted a grid position by the organizers that neither started, nor ever practiced, is not tabulated for either the practiced or qualified headings. The total qualified does not include cars which were allowed to start but which for some reason were not allotted grid positions or which did not practice.”
No doubt at this very moment Janos is beavering away at the next volume. Rumour has it that this will be a photographic record of the history of the sport."
Janos was kind enough to help me with the appendix finishing order chart in my book "12 Hours of Sebring 1970."
email: jlwmrg@earthlink.net
The review of the book at www.dailysportscar.com reads:
"Time and Two Seats - Five Decades of Long Distance Racing
János Wimpffen
At one point we thought Janos was adding so much detail to these two volumes, the racing was taking place faster than he could keep up with it: there seemed a real danger that he’d put off publication one more year – and end up two behind.
He finally drew the line at 1998, so if it’s recent years you’re after, you’ll have to wait for the next volume – and we’re not sure when that will be. These two volumes will keep you busy enough though. Over 2000 pages in each, with race reports and finely crafted – and amazingly detailed – results for each event.
Janos tells the story of each race in his own, carefully chosen words: each report is his account of each race, written in a charming style, easy to read, but with all the important features included.
It’s not just reports and results though: he sets the scene for each year, explaining how the structure of sportscar racing is changing at any one time, and then completes his 45 year story with the most amazing collection of “data”. He really is “Mr. Data”, whether it be the chassis number of the winning car at Sebring in 1961 (it was 0792), Luciano Galluzzo’s pseudonym (which was “Stradivarius”) or the length of the Silverstone circuit which was used for the 1000 Km race in 1988 (it was 2.969 miles).
As an example of the depth of this ‘bible’, there is even a 12 page chapter explaining the tables in the rest of the books
For example: “Qualified refers to the total number of cars allotted grid positions whether or not they started. Exception: a car allotted a grid position by the organizers that neither started, nor ever practiced, is not tabulated for either the practiced or qualified headings. The total qualified does not include cars which were allowed to start but which for some reason were not allotted grid positions or which did not practice.”
No doubt at this very moment Janos is beavering away at the next volume. Rumour has it that this will be a photographic record of the history of the sport."
Janos was kind enough to help me with the appendix finishing order chart in my book "12 Hours of Sebring 1970."
#7
Muzza
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 07:30
When I saw the title of this thread I thought "Wow! János is going bike racing - great!"
Time and Two Seats is an outstanding book - get it if you can.
Time and Two Seats is an outstanding book - get it if you can.
#8
Ted Walker
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:21
Start saving as there is going to be a photo version from the same author in several volumes.
#9
VWV
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 19:02
Ted, is this new version going to be an update of the existing 2 vol set (existing text with more photos) or is it going to be photo book that complements the existing 2 vol set?
I'm thinking about getting the 2 vol set but if there is going to a new updated edition with more photo's I will hold off and wait.
I'm thinking about getting the 2 vol set but if there is going to a new updated edition with more photo's I will hold off and wait.
#10
Ted Walker
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 08:40
I dont know !!!! but its going to have HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of un-published photographs,in maybe 4 volumes.
#11
Allen Brown
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 13:08
Is that rustling sound the noise of a ferret rolling in money?
#12
dretceterini
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 14:05
I would think it would be a good idea to do the photo book (books?) seperately, as there are some who wouldn't buy them if the are incorporated into a new version of what they already have.
#13
Ted Walker
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 14:52
They will be a seperate thing and will compliment the existing title.
#14
docjanos
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 17:58
Hi Everyone,
Thanks Ted and Harry !
I am amused how everyone says that my book is hard to find, but I am looking at a pile of them in front of my desk. It kind of reminds me of when the Mongolian herdsman was asked how it feels to live in such a remote place, to which he looked around, shrugged, and said ,"what's so remote, it's home."
In any case, yes I should do more to let you know how to get a hold of a copy. Best is to e-mail me directly at jlwmrg@earthlink.net. Don't be thrown off that the first time that you e-mail me, you'll get a spam filter warning--ignore it as I will still be able to read it and then put you into my mailbox.
As to the existing Time and Two Seats--affectionately referred to as TATS [good thing that I didn't call it "Time In Two Seats."]
It is a 2-volume, 2200 page history of the world sports car championships and their derivatives from the series inception in 1953 through 1998. It covers all the major events, the FIA GT championships of the 1960s (and then again 1990s), the so-called triple crown of endurance; Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans--whether or not they were part of the official championship in any given year.
The book contains a five chapter intro giving general history, maps of all the circuits and information on the various rule changes. Then follows the actual era by era, race by race coverage. Included is the story of each event plus a complete results table. There are about 700 photos in total, which sounds like a lot, but it gets lost among the 2200 pages.
Ted is correct. There is a photo version(s) forthcoming. Much of his fine collection will be in it, along with that of dozens of others (including Harry's). Here is the basic plan with it. It will be broken up into 3 or 4 volumes (there remains some debate here--probably will end up as 4). The volumes roughly correspond to decades which correspond to the distinct eras in TATS. The volumes will be sold separately, and will be published sequentially, unlike TATS which is an inseparable 2-volume set.
I expect that the 1950s era will go the publisher the 1st of the year--don't how long the production will take on it. [It will be David Bull Publishing]
Each volume will have roughly 1000 photos. Apart from captions there will be very little text.
This is a critical factor to all you sports car fans. The narratives of TATS will not be repeated, so if you want the story, you need to get that!
Some may complain that all this adds up to a bit of price tag. Others will say rightly that it is a good value.
Regarding the current years, I have do all the leg work on the post 1998 races but have yet to have the time to publish it so not sure yet what form it will take. Perhaps I'll just wait for the 10 year anniversary to make for a good supplement.
Will keep you all posted.
Thanks again for the interest.
Janos Wimpffen
Thanks Ted and Harry !
I am amused how everyone says that my book is hard to find, but I am looking at a pile of them in front of my desk. It kind of reminds me of when the Mongolian herdsman was asked how it feels to live in such a remote place, to which he looked around, shrugged, and said ,"what's so remote, it's home."
In any case, yes I should do more to let you know how to get a hold of a copy. Best is to e-mail me directly at jlwmrg@earthlink.net. Don't be thrown off that the first time that you e-mail me, you'll get a spam filter warning--ignore it as I will still be able to read it and then put you into my mailbox.
As to the existing Time and Two Seats--affectionately referred to as TATS [good thing that I didn't call it "Time In Two Seats."]
It is a 2-volume, 2200 page history of the world sports car championships and their derivatives from the series inception in 1953 through 1998. It covers all the major events, the FIA GT championships of the 1960s (and then again 1990s), the so-called triple crown of endurance; Daytona, Sebring, Le Mans--whether or not they were part of the official championship in any given year.
The book contains a five chapter intro giving general history, maps of all the circuits and information on the various rule changes. Then follows the actual era by era, race by race coverage. Included is the story of each event plus a complete results table. There are about 700 photos in total, which sounds like a lot, but it gets lost among the 2200 pages.
Ted is correct. There is a photo version(s) forthcoming. Much of his fine collection will be in it, along with that of dozens of others (including Harry's). Here is the basic plan with it. It will be broken up into 3 or 4 volumes (there remains some debate here--probably will end up as 4). The volumes roughly correspond to decades which correspond to the distinct eras in TATS. The volumes will be sold separately, and will be published sequentially, unlike TATS which is an inseparable 2-volume set.
I expect that the 1950s era will go the publisher the 1st of the year--don't how long the production will take on it. [It will be David Bull Publishing]
Each volume will have roughly 1000 photos. Apart from captions there will be very little text.
This is a critical factor to all you sports car fans. The narratives of TATS will not be repeated, so if you want the story, you need to get that!
Some may complain that all this adds up to a bit of price tag. Others will say rightly that it is a good value.
Regarding the current years, I have do all the leg work on the post 1998 races but have yet to have the time to publish it so not sure yet what form it will take. Perhaps I'll just wait for the 10 year anniversary to make for a good supplement.
Will keep you all posted.
Thanks again for the interest.
Janos Wimpffen
#15
Ted Walker
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 19:39
Thanks Janos. I thought I would tempt you in to joining in.
#16
ensign14
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 21:03
I can verify that. Just gazing at the Mille Miglia results tables engenders a sense of wonder at the work that has gone into it, and also an explorer's wish to know more about such unknown territory - how did Domenico Stragliatto feel after 21 hours 33 minuts at the wheel of an Isetta, solo? What persuaded Michel Dantin to bring his Simca over to have a go? Did Travaini and Rotondi realize they were just 2 minutes away from winning the Special Touring 750cc class - perhaps that comfort break proved costly? Or was it the weight saving for Seibert driving solo? Did Pall and Brunacci slow down to cross the line at exactly 28 hours, or did the timekeepers just guess it as they staggered across? Was Maccarini upset that he was not last?Originally posted by docjanos
Some may complain that all this adds up to a bit of price tag. Others will say rightly that it is a good value.
Just an absolute wealth of detail, perfect for dipping into as well as cover-to-cover reading.
And welcome Janos. Who won the Wartburg model?
#17
Allen Brown
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 22:55
Good to see you here Janos
Time and Two Seats redefined the standard for motor racing research and it remains an inspiration to me. A fabulous piece of work.
Regards
Allen
Time and Two Seats redefined the standard for motor racing research and it remains an inspiration to me. A fabulous piece of work.
Regards
Allen
#18
petefenelon
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 23:46
All I can do here is add to the collective welcome to Janos -- a veritable sports car guru. TATS is one of the most enormous (and entertaining) pieces of research and writing about motorsport I've ever encountered. Anyone with an interest in civilised forms of racing where the wheels are decently covered will find it a delight!
It's a privilege to see you here.
It's a privilege to see you here.
#19
docjanos
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 01:25
Thanks guys,
It was a Trabant actually. Won by a fellow in New York City.
I also often wondered about those slow rollers in the Mille Miglia. One day when I am truly warped I'd like to sit down and do an interactive map of that race. The little tiddlers were set off at one minute intervals beginning at about 2100 the night before. All through the darkness they rolled down the ramp until the big guns emerged in the early morning. Would love to figure out exactly at which little village or farm Aldo Piva was blasted past in his Fiat 500 by the silver streak of Moss and Jenkinson's Mercedes. Just where and when did they pass each and every other car?
The last finishers must have come in hours and hours after the crowds were gone, the banners had been taken down and the race forgotten about. "Hey, Roberto, look a car with numbers on it just pulled up in front of the cafe. Hand the poor guy a bottle. 28 hours? sounds close enough."
It was a Trabant actually. Won by a fellow in New York City.
I also often wondered about those slow rollers in the Mille Miglia. One day when I am truly warped I'd like to sit down and do an interactive map of that race. The little tiddlers were set off at one minute intervals beginning at about 2100 the night before. All through the darkness they rolled down the ramp until the big guns emerged in the early morning. Would love to figure out exactly at which little village or farm Aldo Piva was blasted past in his Fiat 500 by the silver streak of Moss and Jenkinson's Mercedes. Just where and when did they pass each and every other car?
The last finishers must have come in hours and hours after the crowds were gone, the banners had been taken down and the race forgotten about. "Hey, Roberto, look a car with numbers on it just pulled up in front of the cafe. Hand the poor guy a bottle. 28 hours? sounds close enough."
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#20
dretceterini
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 01:49
Actually, something like 28 hours of driving as fast as possible in a Fiat Topolino sounds like fun to me 
#21
Frank de Jong
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 08:35
Hi Janos, I'll contact you. As a "times and 4 seats (and 4 wheels)" historian I finally should study your piece of work...
#22
Udo K.
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 19:33
Hi Janos,
great to see you here at TNF.
And to all others interested in sports cars: Get your copy of TATS. You will not regret it.
.. and, of course, we are looking forward to things to come..
great to see you here at TNF.
And to all others interested in sports cars: Get your copy of TATS. You will not regret it.
.. and, of course, we are looking forward to things to come..
#23
D-Type
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 22:15
Hi Janos,
How much in Euros, including p&p to UK?.
How much in Euros, including p&p to UK?.
#24
dretceterini
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Posted 12 November 2004 - 22:47
Lets see...the 4 companion photo books to T&TS...Tony Adriaensens Siata book....the Bucciali book...Simon Moore's Alfa GP cars book...need to save up some money for all the good stuff coming.... 
#25
D-Type
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Posted 13 November 2004 - 00:02
Cheer up, Christmas is coming!
#26
docjanos
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Posted 13 November 2004 - 01:27
Hi Udo--thanks
to D-type, probably best to e-mail about business matters (jlwmrg@earthlink.net)--If I am correct then we're not supposed to do official promo and business on the forum.
to Dretceterini, you have both my sympathies and no sympathy at the same time. My wish list of racing books stands at 5 pages. Everytime I buy one, I hear of a new one. For example, I rewarded myself after a busy week by ordering Paul Lawrence's "Nowhere to Hide, the Story of Royale." While clicking through my credit card I happened to glance at a review of the new book by Bjorn Tiedemann, "Speed in Sweden: A Century of Motorsport" -gotta get it -- see what I mean.
to D-type, probably best to e-mail about business matters (jlwmrg@earthlink.net)--If I am correct then we're not supposed to do official promo and business on the forum.
to Dretceterini, you have both my sympathies and no sympathy at the same time. My wish list of racing books stands at 5 pages. Everytime I buy one, I hear of a new one. For example, I rewarded myself after a busy week by ordering Paul Lawrence's "Nowhere to Hide, the Story of Royale." While clicking through my credit card I happened to glance at a review of the new book by Bjorn Tiedemann, "Speed in Sweden: A Century of Motorsport" -gotta get it -- see what I mean.
#27
dretceterini
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Posted 13 November 2004 - 01:40
Only 5 pages?
There are about 50 books already out that I want and don't have as yet, plus some old books that I'm looking for at a reasonable price..
I was just mentioning the stuff I know about that isn't out yet (OK, I do have the Bucciali book on the way).
Regards,
Stu Schaller
There are about 50 books already out that I want and don't have as yet, plus some old books that I'm looking for at a reasonable price..
I was just mentioning the stuff I know about that isn't out yet (OK, I do have the Bucciali book on the way).
Regards,
Stu Schaller
#28
harryglorydays
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Posted 13 November 2004 - 14:24
Originally posted by docjanos
As to the existing Time and Two Seats--affectionately referred to as TATS [good thing that I didn't call it "Time In Two Seats."]
Janos - perhaps you should change the name - it would sell like gangbusters on the Internet!
Can't wait to see the new edition.
#29
Graham Gauld
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Posted 12 December 2004 - 14:30
Reference the Trabant on the Mille Miglia and the Isettas. As many of my friends will know I made the 1958 pilgrimage from Edinburgh to Modena and Back including over the old St Bernard Pass, with a used Heinkel Bubble car, three wheels etc. I got through nine plugs, one of which managed to unscrew itself hit the steel plate above and rebound to bury itself into the tarmac of the road !
I can sympathise with the Isetta drivers on the Mille Miglia as my maximum speed was 20 mph and climbing the St Bernard I never got above 10 mph. When, after a three day journey from Edinburgh I arrived at Ollon Villars Hill climb in Switzerland about an hour before the start and parked the Heinkel, just as Olivier Gendebien walked bye. He paused when he saw me get out and remarked " You didn't drive that thing from Scotland did you ?" when I replied yes, he suggested we go and have a cup of coffee. Never was a coffee more welcome. The answer to the obvious question is that had it been possible at the time I would have driven an Isetta on the Mille Miglia : just think of the interesting cars that would have passed you during the night and day !
GG
I can sympathise with the Isetta drivers on the Mille Miglia as my maximum speed was 20 mph and climbing the St Bernard I never got above 10 mph. When, after a three day journey from Edinburgh I arrived at Ollon Villars Hill climb in Switzerland about an hour before the start and parked the Heinkel, just as Olivier Gendebien walked bye. He paused when he saw me get out and remarked " You didn't drive that thing from Scotland did you ?" when I replied yes, he suggested we go and have a cup of coffee. Never was a coffee more welcome. The answer to the obvious question is that had it been possible at the time I would have driven an Isetta on the Mille Miglia : just think of the interesting cars that would have passed you during the night and day !
GG
#30
xkssFrankOpalka
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Posted 14 December 2004 - 05:15
Graham, Iagree, the best place to watch a race is from another race car, very interesting
#31
sprite
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Posted 14 December 2004 - 06:21
For everyon's information, Janos Wimpfffen has a copy available on Ebay. (if my copy hadn't arrived today I don't know if I would have mentioned it) It's worth whatever it takes to get it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/...4512299537&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/...4512299537&rd=1
