Unraced cars & engines

Originally posted by Peter Morley
Or at least include cars where they constructed some significant components - e.g. the Kieft or Bizzarini F1 (if it is anything like his sportscars I wonder how many 'he' has built by now!!).

Well, someone just showed me this ebay ad for the Bizzarini "Formula One" car (with a Corvette engine), chassis 001, "the only one he made." Interesting little car, and the bidding starts at $1,000 US.

Originally posted by Rob G

Well, someone just showed me this ebay ad for the Bizzarini "Formula One" car (with a Corvette engine), chassis 001, "the only one he made." Interesting little car, and the bidding starts at $1,000 US.

The world's only 2-door F1 car?

Does anyone know the history of this car, was it ever tested, or was it just a shelved Bizzarrini project?

Respectfully,

Jacques N. Dresang

Originally posted by Gokart Mozart
Does anyone know the history of this car, was it ever tested, or was it just a shelved Bizzarrini project?

Respectfully,

Jacques N. Dresang

Also what was it built for?
Were they going to reduce the size of the engine to make it a 3 litre F1 car?

Originally posted by ian senior


The world's only 2-door F1 car?

Wasn’t there a three-wheel-drive Ferrari F-1 car with a single steered front wheel, two wheels at the side and a single rear wheel? Or it may have been that the three wheels to the rear were all on a common axle line. I remember reading something about this concept in the ‘90s. It was supposed to be a way to achieve some of the traction advantages of four-wheel-drive and some of the aerodynamic advantages (as claimed for six small wheels).

Does anyone know about this? Are there any photos or drawings?



Thanks & Regards

Gerald

Originally posted by Gerald Ryan
Wasn’t there a three-wheel-drive Ferrari F-1 car with a single steered front wheel, two wheels at the side and a single rear wheel?

It was not a Ferrari, but an idea by Enrique Scalabroni. I posted some pics in message #250 of this thread.

Ciao,
Guido

Originally posted by Gerald Ryan
Wasn’t there a three-wheel-drive Ferrari F-1 car with a single steered front wheel, two wheels at the side and a single rear wheel? Or it may have been that the three wheels to the rear were all on a common axle line. I remember reading something about this concept in the ‘90s. It was supposed to be a way to achieve some of the traction advantages of four-wheel-drive and some of the aerodynamic advantages (as claimed for six small wheels).

Does anyone know about this? Are there any photos or drawings?



Thanks & Regards

Gerald

I've seen those sketches too!

I think it was a typical Autosprint off-season special of the early 90s, although I do recall Enrique Scalabroni saying it was a very practical configuration for an F1 car so it might've been during his time at Maranello. One ruddy great driven wheel (like a motorbike), two outriggers and a front steering wheel - it was essentially a very low, very wide motorbike with stabilisers, IIRC.

Autosprint always seemed to be full of wild racing car schemes in the silly- and off-seasons, Autosport would usually pick up on them a couple of weeks later...

Originally posted by petefenelon
I think it was a typical Autosprint off-season special of the early 90s

I'm not sure what you mean by off-season: are you talking about the winter period without races?

If so, it is not true: this sketches where published at the end of June 1993...

If not... ok I don't understand you!;)

Ciao,
Guido

Drifting away from F1, does anybody remember a spoof Autosport report of a Nassau Speed Week in which various preposterous entries ran including a FLAT 12 Porsche. How ridiculous.
JF

Originally posted by Sharman
Drifting away from F1, does anybody remember a spoof Autosport report of a Nassau Speed Week in which various preposterous entries ran including a FLAT 12 Porsche. How ridiculous.
JF

Not a Flat 12 Porsche, but is this what you were thinking of?

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=18585

Roger
I seem to remember a more believable version but don't recall when it was. One of Paddy McNally's efforts?
JF

I, too, remember a later version, which was reported in both Autosport and Motoring News (IIRC in their Christmas week issues) which must have been late '60s, as key players were Bruce and Denny in McLaren M6s or M8s, while I think a Chaparral or two were also involved in what was a type of super-libre event.

The reports featured photographs which were hard to pinpoint to any particular circuit. and I remember the whole idea working pretty well.

Guido

That's the one. Thank you for the link.

Referring to that 1-2-1 diamond car, now I’ve had an opportunity to think about the vehicle over the holidays, several questions come to mind. I’m most interested in everyone's opinions and comments. Assuming such a car was actually built and raced there is a good possibility that it would be aerodynamically more efficient than a conventional car. It would possibly have more downforce with less drag. BUT how would such a car handle?

A/. Staying with the arrangement where the single front wheel and the single rear wheel articulate to accomplish the steering task (that is the non-paired wheels steer whereas the “axle” pair remain fixed and do not steer), what would happen as the car reached maximum slip angle and then the driver decided to increase the radius of cornering path (that is, reduce lateral acceleration)? In that case he’d be adding to the rear wheel slip angle while simultaneously reducing the front wheel slip angle. What would occur if the rear wheel lost (static) traction because of this? Would the effect of the single rear wheel losing grip dominate? Would the increase in slip angle at the rear tend to over steer the car putting it into a slide or a spin? Or would the combination of the three other wheels act to resist oversteer and slides?

B/. An alternative arrangement would be to keep the single rear wheel fixed while steering the other three. There would need to be some sort of linkage to do this- a sort of modified Ackerman geometry needing to be implemented. Would this be a better arrangement? The designer must have thought about this possibility and perhaps thought not. It would be interesting to understand why.

C/. For a diamond car where the three rear wheels are powered while only the front and rear wheels steer there is no need to have more than one differential unit. The path distance executed by the single rear wheel is always equal to the average of the paths executed by the paired wheels. Hence the rear wheel can be powered from an extension shaft driven from the crown wheel of a differential unit powering the paired wheels. The description given relating to the F-1 diamond car suggests that two differential units were to be untilised. Why so?

And those are my questions. Any comments greatly appreciated!

Thanks & regards

Gerald

Thought I would contribute a couple of scans from the Motoring News:

There was a McNally Hesketh planed in the 70s. Is it the same Hesketh as the Hesketh F1 team?

Yes. Lord Hesketh backed the engine project for a while, but eventually lost interest. See this earlier thread:

The McNally F1 car

From Motorsport aktuell: There was a Russian F1 engine planed called Egonomash. Any details about that?

I remember being shown a BRM P153 rolling chassis in the cellar of Hoar Cross Hall by it's then resident, Bill "Gingerly" Jones (probably around 1974). Bill was intending to fit a Berta V8 for a privateer F1 entry - but it all came to nothing.

Daewoo wanted to enter F1 (South Korean car maker) with an engine from Hart, Lamborghini or Oral.

Daewoo wanted to enter F1 (South Korean car maker) with an engine from Hart, Lamborghini or Oral.

When?

Sorry, in 1995

Source: Motorsport aktuell

Joe Saward reported rumours in 1999 from Daewoo with Minardi.

Not an unraced F1 car, but an unraced Grand Prix car. Alphi was a small French manufacturer who built 4 cars between 1929 and 1931. One of these was a car powered by a 6-cylinder supercharged CIME engine of 1.4 litre capacity, which was built for the 1929 French Grand Prix. Edouard Brisson was the nominated driver, however it was not ready for the race, and AFAIK, never competed in any Grand Prix race. Was the car eventually completed, and did it actually compete at all?

I, too, remember a later version, which was reported in both Autosport and Motoring News (IIRC in their Christmas week issues) which must have been late '60s, as key players were Bruce and Denny in McLaren M6s or M8s, while I think a Chaparral or two were also involved in what was a type of super-libre event.

The reports featured photographs which were hard to pinpoint to any particular circuit. and I remember the whole idea working pretty well.

 

Apologies for the thread resurrection, but I wasn't a member back in 2006. It must have been Christmas 1970, as the Chaparral 2J featured strongly, but suffered an unfair disadvantage as part of the circuit was on an open-planked pontoon bridge which negated its ground-effects. There were a number of weird cars "entered" including one with a Lycoming (?) aircraft engine. Photos were taken from the magazine archives over the years. It was either the Bermuda or Bahamas GP IIRC and was allegedly held "in camera" as there was a secret summit meeting on the island with all reporters banned hence the lack of any pre-race publicity.

Here is a photo and line drawing of the 1500cc DOHC 8-cylinder engine of the 1965 Moskvitch GD-1:

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.autosovie....org/index3.htm

Paul Rosche wanted to build an BMW V10 engine in 1972/1973

Source?

the kraco kr-1 champ car. designed by don halliday. it was tested by pete halsmer at laguna seca turning competitive lap times it was shelved in favor the marches for that year.

 

the late allan mccall helped in the project.

 

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

Edited by Marc Sproule, 28 March 2017 - 06:20.

the kraco kr-1 champ car. designed by don halliday. it was tested by pete halsmer at laguna seca turning competitive lap times it was shelved in favor the marches for that year.

 

the late allan mccall helped in the project.

 

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

Thanks as always for the pics, Marc. A fair number of CART teams had a go at building their own chassis in the mid 1980s (or commissioning their own from a chassis builder) but rarely got the cars onto the tracks, although most of them made at least one or two races before the teams gave up, taking them out of the "unraced" qualifier in the thread title. Seemed to be a case of the cost of just buying a developed March or Lola off the shelf, even though that wouldn't necessarily lead to the "unfair advantage," overrode the cost of designing, building and developing one's own stuff. 

I have personally been involved in at least two current-generation WRC cars which never saw a competitive special stage. Both Japanese manufacturers, neither of which I can say much more about...

Well that's a rather pointless titillating post!

 

How frustrating

I have personally been involved in at least two current-generation WRC cars which never saw a competitive special stage. Both Japanese manufacturers, neither of which I can say much more about...

 

Now, that could only have been Mitsubishi and Subaru; or even more interestingly, Subaru and Mazda.... I don't think Mitsu and Subaru are doing well financially-wise, though, & Mazda is probably spending a lot of money with their IMSA programme. All in all it would make more sense for them to sponsor motorsports in the US. Hahah I'm quite in the conjecture mode!

Edited by guiporsche, 28 March 2017 - 12:00.

I think the recently discovered 1949 Larkens 500 qualifies for this thread:

 

http://www.prewarcar...3.html#comments

How far advanced was the Prodrive F1 car project of 2000-ish when the company cancelled it because it could not secure a suitable supply of engines?

 

Oh yes, and do I recall that BMW produced a normally-aspirated V12 F1 engine in the late 1980s, soon after their stunning 1.5-litre turbocharged 'four' was banned ? I seem to recall seeing it in their private (archive, as opposed to the bigger public) museum in Munich. 

How much do we know about Al Melling, (the'wizard of Rochdale' as he was once described by a seriously knowledgeable - and cynical - rival) ? One way or another his road car engines proved to be failures until substantially rescued by other hands, but didn't he design more than one potential F1 engine in the 1990s, then try to sell on the rights ?

 

Sorry this may sound woffle-like, but I don't want to be sued ....

Edited by AAGR, 28 March 2017 - 14:28.

Sorry, me again. Surely Toyota's withdrawal from F1 was so abrupt, the decision made so late towards the end of 2009, that the 2010 car was already finished and race-ready ? AFAIK that unraced/unrun car is still in the company's museum in Cologne.

Dunno about Cologne, but there is one in the Prototyp in Hamburg.  Or at least there was in 2015.

 

 

 

 

One of the Stefan GP projects was to paint this red and have a punt.

Edited by ensign14, 28 March 2017 - 14:41.

Source?

 

Heinz Prüller in his book "Die Story der deutschen Formel 1"

 

Thanks - when was that written (which year?)

I realise that some folks think that the world revolves around F1, but the thread title is, "Unraced non-F1 cars & engines", i.e anything that ISN'T F1!!!

 

There's plenty of F1 garbage on this site already so could we at least keep this thread reserved for interesting stuff and move the F1 discussion elsewhere?

 

Ta.

the kraco kr-1 champ car. designed by don halliday. it was tested by pete halsmer at laguna seca turning competitive lap times it was shelved in favor the marches for that year.

 

the late allan mccall helped in the project.

 

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57626043689098/

As ever, terrific pictures, Marc.  And how quiet the testing was in terms of people present...

As ever, terrific pictures, Marc.  And how quiet the testing was in terms of people present...

 

thank you .

 

test days were some of the most enjoyable of my career. for several years there were no media types or spectators allowed in.

 

that meant that my daughter josie and i were the only spectators. as a consequence she got to be friends with many of my racing mates.

 

'tis her in the pic below. she has a daughter about the same age that she was when i took the pic.

 

https://www.flickr.c...57646443645344/

I realise that some folks think that the world revolves around F1, but the thread title is, "Unraced non-F1 cars & engines", i.e anything that ISN'T F1!!!

 

There's plenty of F1 garbage on this site already so could we at least keep this thread reserved for interesting stuff and move the F1 discussion elsewhere?

 

Ta.

I think that at some stage in the last 15 years a thread on unraced F1 engines was merged with it.

Stet. The endless surge of the mundane continues. We're doomed!

Yes that is the TF110, the other car is currently in the TMG foyer in Cologne.

 

One of the rally cars was the still-born original version of the Suzuki SX4 WRC, designed at Monster Sport Europe (responsible for the ultra-successful S1600 championship campaign) in Milton Keynes before the project was cancelled and re-allocated to Michel Nandon etc in Europe - having thought about it it's long enough ago now that I won't offend anyone!

 

The other car was neither Mazda or Subaru, MUCH more recent. And I definitely can't say. I'm sure it's not unique...

Edited by Hamish Robson, 29 March 2017 - 05:07.

Al Melling is a clever guy but also responsible for some howlers, he tried tio build a V8 Norton for goodness sake.

 

But his TVR engines were decent where they not?

 

If it's Japanese I would expect it was a Daihatsu, INfiniti or something.

 

Either way we are never going to know so what you don't know lets you move on.

 

There were lots of cars made during all sorts of programs that you don't know about. and eventually do!

Was the 4 cylinder JAP 500cc engine ever raced?

Not sure.  There were a lot of ridiculously complex and clever bike engines raced in the 60's and 70's though!

Was the Daimler 4.5 litre V8 ever raced?  I know the 2.5 litre ran on the hills.

Was the 4 cylinder JAP 500cc engine ever raced?

It was discussed in this earlier thread:

JAP 4-cylinder F3 engine

It appears never to have raced, or even been installed in a car, although an engine was displayed on the Arnolt stand at the 1954 New York Motor Show.