The A-Z of Formula Indy racing cars...

No, not any new book about the subject (yet) ...

I’ve just decided what will be my 2005’s main project: THE A-Z OF INDYCARS.

In fact, when I started here at TNF, one of my ideas was to create a “Directory of Indycar racing” with the cars, drivers, teams, etc. that raced in USAC and CART races since 1956.
My interess in the subject grew and I’ve collected many infos, but my job took me all the time, and the project was put in a hold. Now I have a little more time, and after reading some threads, I’ve decided to create this project. I just don’t know yet where and how this will finish, but if all the TNF friends could help, this will grow and perhaps become THE place to search, when any doubt occours. (And also it’s a way to help Allen with his search...)

Ok,
to start, here are all the makes that raced in the USAC period 1956-1979. (that includes Dirt Champ Cars, Roadsters, Rear Engine Cars, and other types)

A
ATLANTA, ANTARES

B
BLOUGH, BLUM, BROMME, BRABHAM, BRAWNER, BRP, BORTH, BURNETT, BROOKS

C
CURTIS, CHRISTAIN, CECIL, COYOTE, CHENOWETH, CHEETAH, CHINOOK, COLT (aka VP COLT), CEDOZ, CANNON, CARILLO, CICADA, COOPER, CHRISTIANSEN, CONNAUGHT, CONZE

D
DUNN, DUNLOP, DRAGON

E
EPPERLY, EWING, ELDER, EISERT, EAGLE, EDMUNDS

F
FERRARI, FLYNN, FINLEY, FOX, FIORE, FRAY, FERGUSON

G
GERHARDT, GRANATELLI, GLEN-BRYANT, GILBERT

H
HILLEGASS, HILL, HALIBRAND, HAWK, HUFFAKER, HORTON, HAYHOE, HOPKINS, HURTUBISE

K
KURTIS-KRAFT, KUZMA, KINGFISH (aka KING), KENYON, KRAMER

L
LESOVSKY, LOLA, LAYCOCK, LIGHTNING, LOTUS

M
MEYER, MASERATI, MERCEDES, MOORE, MESKOWSKI, MONGOOSE, MORRIS, McNAMARA, McLAREN, MALLARD, MANTA, MARATHON, MARCH, McGEE-CARMAN, McKEE, McELREATH,

N
NAVARRO

P
PHILIPP, PANKRATZ, PENSKE, PARNELLI, PORTER, PETERSON

R
RUSSO-NICH, R-MILLER, RANDOL, RASCAR, RILEY

S
STEVENS, SCHROEDER, SILNES, SHILALA, SALIH, SNOWBERGER, SCOPA, SUTTON, SCORPION, SEYMOUR, SPIRIT, STOYE, SHRIKE, SHELBY

T
TEMPLETON, TURNER, TREVIS, TIPKE, THOMPSON, TROUTMAN, TAYLOR, TROUT-BURN

V
VOLLSTEDT,

W
WATSON, WATTS, WILDCAT, WEBSTER, WALTHER, WEISMAN, WARD, WOLVERINE

Y
YUNNICK

Did I miss any?

This data are mainly from the Phil Harms files.
Some cars are one-offs, others are mass production, others simply changed their original names and become new entities.
In the next days I will put here all I have about every make/car, and we’ll see if this thread will grow...or not...


Some NOTES for start:

1) I think the MARATHON and HORTON cars are the same. Any clues?
2) The HOPKINS (1976) was in fact the first LIGHTNING, right?
3) The BRAWNER and HAWK cars are the same?

Yes, the Hopkins is the Lightning; the Laycock is the Moongose. I think I already did all your work from 1970 to today ;-)

Off the top of my head I think your missing: Reynard, Truesport, Swift, March-Porsche, March-Alfa Romeo and Dan Gurney's All American Eagle, all from the 80's on. Miller from the "Golden Age"

Nice one, brickie. Let's see what I can do to help

A
ATLANTA: 1972 McLaren M16 copy later modifed at Ras-Cars
ANTARES: 1972 pig's ear that amazingly came back to qualify in 1979

B
BRABHAM: the BT12, BT25 and BT32 but the BT12 was copied many times
BRAWNER = Hawk (65-69) or Scorpion (70-71)
BRP: just the 1965 car?

C
CURTIS: a one-off special, I think
CECIL: just two cars, a 66 and a 69?
CHEETAH = Gilbert
CHINOOK: did it ever happen?
CARILLO: or was it just the Eagle they built in 1976?
CICADA: a one-off (from Wisconsin IIRC)
COOPER: just the T54?

D
DRAGON: the name of the 1976 Coyote-copy King

E
EISERT: 1965-67 Harrison Specials then a 69/70 car.
EDMUNDS = Wolverine, but he also built the production Lightings, didn't he?

F
FINLEY = complete can of worms! Modifed Huffakers, two 68 cars and later 'Fleagles'.
FOX = Sugai Fox
FIORE: a puzzle

G
GERHARDT: lots of them from about 1965 to 1970.
GRANATELLI: was there one?
GLEN-BRYANT: His name was Glen Bryant and he built the chassis for the Adams Turbine
GILBERT: Gilbert's 'Cheetah' built c1968

H
HAWK: cars from 1965 to 1969, initially based on the Brabham BT12
HUFFAKER: space frame cars in 1964; monocoque cars in 1966
HAYHOE: two more BT12 copies in 1968
HOPKINS = the original Lighting 76
HURTUBISE = Mallard?

K
KUZMA: the 1969/70 wedge cars?
KINGFISH: the 1970, 1971, 1972 and 1973 King cars
KENYON: a modified 1967 Coyote produced in 1970 and raced until 1974 at least.
KRAMER: another real puzzle

L
LOLA: T80, T90, T150 series and T270
LAYCOCK = Mongoose
LIGHTNING: one in 1976, a host in 1977 and a couple or more in 1978.

M
MOORE: the Zink Trackburner Brabham copy?
MONGOOSE: from 1967 to 1970
MORRIS: around 1969/70/71; includes the "Morris Marauder"
McNAMARA: the T500 in 1970 and the T501 in 1971.
McLAREN: M15, M16 and M24 series
MANTA = Antares

N
NAVARRO: was a Watson 64 with a AMC Rambler engine built by Navarro

P
PHILIPP: c1965
PARNELLI: the VPJ6 series from 1975 to 1979

R
RASCAR: rebuilt Atlantas
RILEY: the 1974 car built for Hopkins

S
SCORPION: Brawner's 1970/71 car
SEYMOUR: was there one?

T
TIPKE: one-off oddity built in NW by sprint car man

W
WATSON: roadsters then RE cars built 1964-1966 and maybe 1967 then lots of heavily modified Eagles.
WILDCAT: already being documented on a thread near here.
WEBSTER: an Eagle or an Eisert?
WALTHER: Huh? A Morris?
WOLVERINE: 1970 car for Agajanian?

You ask if you missed any: I think there was also a McKee in 1969 (IIRC) for Vose.

I'm really, really looking forward to this thread!

Allen

You missed the Parnelli VPJ1-3, the later Lolas, I'll soon post something about the Antares that you'll like.

btw:

Just browsing the web I've finally found a picture of Emmo testing the McLaren, maybe you're interested:

http://www.gptotal.c...as/castilho.htm

here's another good resource about 1967:

http://www.dixierunn...967/indy67race/

finally, the Tipke:

http://www.victoriaa...rs/display.html

Didn't Hurtubise enter a car called Maxson in 1970 ?

And there was 1980 Chaparral 2K of Johnny Rutherford 1980 Indianapolis 500 winner.

Wandering in by mistake, I think a more appropriate title for this thread would be an "A-to-Z of Champ Cars,"the "Formula Indy" is enough to make me want to steer way clear of it since it (a) makes me want to gag and (b) if you are going to do this, do it right by getting what the cars were actually called correct, if that isn't asking too much.....

thank you all for the way you welcomed this idea.

Off the top of my head I think your missing: Reynard, Truesport, Swift, March-Porsche, March-Alfa Romeo and Dan Gurney's All American Eagle, all from the 80's on. Miller from the "Golden Age"

I'm talking here (for the moment) only the USAC period up to 1978. Those cars you mentioned are from the CART era 1979-2005.

Wandering in by mistake, I think a more appropriate title for this thread would be an "A-to-Z of Champ Cars,"the "Formula Indy" is enough to make me want to steer way clear of it since it (a) makes me want to gag and (b) if you are going to do this, do it right by getting what the cars were actually called correct, if that isn't asking too much.....

Well spoted, I will change it. I don't know if the title could be changed

Yes, the Hopkins is the Lightning; the Laycock is the Moongose. I think I already did all your work from 1970 to today ;-)

I would love to see what you've got...;)

Wasn`t there something called Spyder at the end of the 70s?

Wasn`t there something called Spyder at the end of the 70s?

Yes, in 1979-80, in the CART era. I will post tomorow the cars from that period.


Some infos:

LOLA
T80 (1965) 3 cars
T90/T92 (1966/67) 6 cars
T150/T152/T153/T154 (1968-69) 7 cars
T270 (1972) 5 cars
T500 (1978) ??

VOLLSTEDT
10 cars: 1959: 1; 1963: 1; 1965: 1; 1966: 2; 1967: 2; 1971: 1; 1973: 1; 1977: 1

KINGFISH
1973, 3 cars
I don't know how many cars were made in the other years, but the first Rear Engined one was built in 1970 for Art Pollard. Also some Dirt Cars from 1969 on (in fact Al Unser won all the Dirt races of 1970 in one of this cars for the Parnelli team)

DRAGON
2 cars in 1976 are in fact built by Grant King and latter raced as KINGFISH's

LIGHTNING
1 car in 1976 also known as HOPKINS which I supose we could erase from the list as the car was latter called LIGHTNING and I only saw the Hopkins name in the late Phil Harms docs.
7 cars in 1977.

McLAREN
M15A (1970) 3 cars
M16A (1971) ??
M16B (1972) ??
M16C (1973) 6 cars
M16C/D (1974) ??
M16E (1975) ??
M24 (1977) 7 cars including the B versions of 1978.

LOTUS
Types:
29 (1963) ??
34 (1964) ??
38 (1965/67) ??
42F (1966/67) 1 car ??
56 (1968) ??
64 (1969) ??
also a type 16 in 1963 (an ex-F1 car I supose)

COOPER
T54 (1961) 1 car
T53 (1960) 1 car used at Indy 61 as a backup

KURTIS-KRAFT
Some Roadsters from 1952, also some Dirt Cars.
KK500F (1956) 2 cars for the Novis Team
KK2000 (??) 13 Dirt cars (in fact this cars were a little older by the time period we're talking about but where used in the Dirt races in the period)
KK3000 (1948) 5 cars (as above)
KK500 ??
KK500A ??
KK500B (1953) 7 cars
KK500C (1954) 10 cars
KK500D ??
KK500E ??
KK500G ??
KK500H ??
KK500J ??

WATSON
some Dirt cars
23 Roadsters
some Rear Engined cars

GERHARDT
44 cars built ??


Some more latter.

Originally posted by brickyard


I would love to see what you've got...;) [/B]

There you go, I've just added a lot of '72 Eagles...

http://67.18.8.78/

-the Spyder was possibly run by Hoffman Auto Racing, but I haven't got any information yet.
-there have to be at least two '73 and '77 Vollstedt cars, the #17 and the #27.

There's more on TNF regular Allen Brown's site

Brickyard, rather than starting from scratch why not offer to collaborate with someone who has already started compiling data.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Nice one, brickie. Let's see what I can do to help


G
GRANATELLI: was there one?

Allen

Yes and no.

the 1965 built 4WD Novi Powered car never got a name other than the STP Special but the chassis was built by the Granatelli brothers. So it could be named Granatelli.
Chassis was back at Indy in '66.

But for the same reason, since they owned Paxton and Paxton built the 1967 side-by-side Turbine, so perhaps that '65 Novi could also be named Paxton.
It simply had no name.


Other Name: is Skee already named? Tom klausler drove a Skeee-Chevy V6 in I believe 1979 at the Speedway.

Other than tha, a slight addition:


KURTIS-KRAFT
Some Roadsters from 1952, also some Dirt Cars.
KK500F (1956) 2 cars for the Novis Team
KK2000 (??) 13 Dirt cars (in fact this cars were a little older by the time period we're talking about but where used in the Dirt races in the period)
KK3000 (1948) 5 cars (as above)
KK500 ??
KK500A ??
KK500B (1953) 7 cars
KK500C (1954) 10 cars
KK500D ??
KK500E ??
KK500G ??
KK500H ??
KK500J ??



There was als the type 500G2, a slightly modified version of the 500G
There was one single 500H, 1962 saw two 500K's being built, these were the last two Novi Roadsters built,
a single 1963 500L was the rollcage car of 1963.

Hurtubise's cars: there were two Mallards, one went to Ebb rose but eventually back to Jim for parts.

The Maxson was a separate, different car, Herk had nothing to do with that one.


There are several books dealing with Kurtis Kraft built indycars out as well as one about the Watson roadsters.


I'm gonna love this thread too....


Henri Greuter

Originally posted by gbl
You missed the Parnelli VPJ1-3, the later Lolas, I'll soon post something about the Antares that you'll like.

That will teach me to work mainly from memory. So let's add:

LOLA
T500: 2 cars (HU1 and HU2 for Hall/Unser) in 1978, three (HU3, HU4 and HU5 for Armstrong) in 1979.

PARNELLI
VPJ1: 1972; no idea how many
VPJ2: 1973; no idea how many
VPJ3: 1974; no idea how many but probably few as it wasn't successful

Originally posted by gbl
finally, the Tipke:

http://www.victoriaa...rs/display.html

I've pulled in the picture below. That looks to me like a very professional effort. Maybe I'd underestimated that car?



Allen

Originally posted by brickyard
LOLA
T80 (1965) 3 cars
T90/T92 (1966/67) 6 cars
T150/T152/T153/T154 (1968-69) 7 cars
T270 (1972) 5 cars
T500 (1978) ??

Did these figures come from Lola records? The T150-series numbers seem plausible but could include an extra tub used to repair a crashed car. The T270 numbers also seem high as I can only see evidence of three distinct entities: the STP and Gene White cars at Indy and the second STP car that Pollard raced at Ontario. But Pollard's crash at Indy required a replacement tub so the figure of 5 T270s may be monocoques rather than complete cars.

Originally posted by brickyard
VOLLSTEDT
10 cars: 1959: 1; 1963: 1; 1965: 1; 1966: 2; 1967: 2; 1971: 1; 1973: 1; 1977: 1

Are these from the Vollstedt book? That book seems to lose its thread after 1973 and I'm not sure how the three cars built after 1972 square with Hungness. One of the 1972/73/74 cars must have been rebuilt later to the same shape as the 1977 car.

Originally posted by brickyard
KINGFISH
1973, 3 cars
I don't know how many cars were made in the other years, but the first Rear Engined one was built in 1970 for Art Pollard. Also some Dirt Cars from 1969 on (in fact Al Unser won all the Dirt races of 1970 in one of this cars for the Parnelli team)

Three? I can only see two from the Hungness yearbooks and the entry lists. I have a 1973 media guide that says one Kingfish was built in 1970, one in 1971 and two in 1972.

Originally posted by brickyard
DRAGON
2 cars in 1976 are in fact built by Grant King and latter raced as KINGFISH's

Did they later race as Kingfish? Note that the pair of 1973 cars made a comeback in 1979 with Chevy engines but shared the same 97 and 98 numbers in practice which has confused reports.

Originally posted by brickyard
LIGHTNING
1 car in 1976 also known as HOPKINS which I supose we could erase from the list as the car was latter called LIGHTNING and I only saw the Hopkins name in the late Phil Harms docs.
7 cars in 1977.

What's your source for the 7 in 1977? It looks right but I'd be interested to know how 'official' it is.

Originally posted by brickyard
McLAREN
M15A (1970) 3 cars
M16A (1971) ??
M16B (1972) ??
M16C (1973) 6 cars
M16C/D (1974) ??
M16E (1975) ??
M24 (1977) 7 cars including the B versions of 1978.

The M16 thread gives chapter and verse on the M16-series cars.

Originally posted by brickyard
GERHARDT
44 cars built ??

What's your source for this? There seem to have been very many rear-engined Gerhardts but I'd be surprised if the figure is as high as 44.

Allen

Originally posted by D-Type
There's more on TNF regular Allen Brown's site

Brickyard, rather than starting from scratch why not offer to collaborate with someone who has already started compiling data.

D-Type

I think Brickie may be aiming to do exactly what you suggest.

Originally posted by brickyard
I’ve decided to create this project. I just don’t know yet where and how this will finish, but if all the TNF friends could help, this will grow and perhaps become THE place to search, when any doubt occours. (And also it’s a way to help Allen with his search...)

Although I've published a lot of data this week, I've barely stratched the surface of this subject. My Rafaela 300 thread did start to bring out the full resources of TNF but this thread is an excellent idea.

Allen

There was a twin engine Porsche car. I don't know who built the chassis. The Mickey Thompson roller skate cars, and a four wheel steering one. There were a couple of turbines that were withdrawn after McLaren and Amon got scared shitless in them. There was another turbine that Rick Muther tried to qualify. I don't see the Novis listed but I may have missed it. There was a 4 wheel drive car Jack Fairman tried to qualify that was way slow.

Originally posted by Buford
There was a twin engine Porsche car. I don't know who built the chassis. The Mickey Thompson roller skate cars, and a four wheel steering one. There were a couple of turbines that were withdrawn after McLaren and Amon got scared shitless in them. There was another turbine that Rick Muther tried to qualify. I don't see the Novis listed but I may have missed it. There was a 4 wheel drive car Jack Fairman tried to qualify that was way slow.

Buford,

Novis:

1 was a 1935 heritage Miller chassis out of the '35 Miller-Ford catastropy.
2 were FWD Kurtisses one built in '46, the other in '47
2 were 1956 Kurtis 500F 's (`regular 500 frames but adapted to home the Novi V8)
2 were 1962 Kurtis 500K's (= 500J modified to take the Novi V8)
1 was 1964 Ferguson P104 4WD chassis
1 was 1965 Granatelli built nameless chassis (Paxton or Granatelli)

total: 9 cars

Novi was ònly the brand of engine, which striclty spoken was born as the Winfield V8 but later on took/got the Novi name. Cars were named Novi too but other than that '65 Granatelli car, all chassis were ordered from outside suppliers thus as a car brand, it officialy doesn't exist. But try to explain that to the many fans of the cars!


Henri Greuter

Sorry, Allen I missed the reference in post 1 and that you had already posted. It was really a general comment aimed at anybody compiling a database that duplicates one that's up and running.

Is it worth posting a similar query on Trackforum ? The contributors there are knowledgeable and Indy focussed.

About the Kramer: According to this article this could have been a Rolla Vollstedt car:

http://www.theautoch...s/98051403.html

Originally posted by gbl
About the Kramer: According to this article this could have been a Rolla Vollstedt car:

http://www.theautoch...s/98051403.html

Well spotted gbl!

I checked in the Vollstedt book and it mentions the 1965 car (the seventh Vollstedt) being used in west coast road racing by Bob Gregg in 1968 and 1969 before being bought back by Vollstedt in the fall of 1969. It was used as a Supermodified in 1970 and pictures on p85 and p86 of the book shows it racing as #79. It was then sold to Larry Kramer 'in the winter of 1971' (which I take to mean Jan/Feb 1971). He 'took it the car to Trenton, NJ for the first USAC Championship race of 1971, with Tom Sneva driving'.

Our mystery entry is for a #79 Kramer-Chevrolet driver at Trenton by Tom Sneva. Bullseye! Well, almost a bullseye - if we ignore the 'first race' bit.

I think I'll change 'Kramer' to 'Vollstedt 65' in my database. A 320ci Chev is mentioned as the powerplant of this car (p85).

Thanks gbl

Allen

Originally posted by Buford
There was a twin engine Porsche car. I don't know who built the chassis. The Mickey Thompson roller skate cars, and a four wheel steering one. There were a couple of turbines that were withdrawn after McLaren and Amon got scared shitless in them. There was another turbine that Rick Muther tried to qualify. I don't see the Novis listed but I may have missed it. There was a 4 wheel drive car Jack Fairman tried to qualify that was way slow.

The twin-engined Porsche was built up by Frank Arciero, for Al Unser Sr's rookie year, but it wasn't nearly fast enough, and reportedly was an absolute nightmare to drive.

The 1968 side-engined Turbines were designed by Ken Wallis, and I believe built in Carroll Shelby's shop.

Art

Missing from all these lists are the chassis built by Mickey Thompson:

1962 3 cars

1963 5 cars

1965, one car, front wheel drive, side engine Chevy 3-valve pushrod engine

1966, two cars

Art

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson
Missing from all these lists are the chassis built by Mickey Thompson:

1962 3 cars

1963 5 cars

1965, one car, front wheel drive, side engine Chevy 3-valve pushrod engine

1966, two cars

Art

Didn't Mickey also build a car in 1964? That car (the Sears Allstate Special) is more well known for being the last ride of Dave MacDonald.

Arthur A.
You have mixed up big .....which I do all the time.....Arciero/Stein/Weismann/Ongais/Unser etc. It's only 40 plus years ago, after all...

The 1966 twinny Porsche was designed by Albert Stein from Oakland, Ca. Joe Huffaker did the fabrication, Stein the assembly. Lancia running gear, Porsche engines......DNQ.
Rumored to have been sold to Goodwill Industries for......$1.

The 1965 Arciero entered Weismann-Maserati for Al Unser.
Some info (not much that is accurate, however) here and pics.
http://www.weismann.net/indy.html

There was also the 1966/7 Huffaker built RE Chev Mickey Thompson car for Danny Ongais...there is something I've seen about it on the www....I'll track it down.

Buford, I think the car you are thinking of, of Jack Fairman (did he test the M?T cars, too? ) was the Connaught in '62, not 4WD, but as you said...slow. Fairman did a demonstration (for the Granatellis?) of the Ferguson F1 4WD at the Speedway. IIRC ?

Originally posted by Gerr
.....Fairman did a demonstration (for the Granatellis?) of the Ferguson F1 4WD at the Speedway. IIRC ?

That rings a bell with me, too... but it wasn't F1 I wouldn't think... probably had the 2.5 Climax fitted. As used by Graham Hill in the 1963 Australian races.

Buford, I think the car you are thinking of, of Jack Fairman (did he test the M?T cars, too? ) was the Connaught in '62, not 4WD, but as you said...slow. Fairman did a demonstration (for the Granatellis?) of the Ferguson F1 4WD at the Speedway. IIRC ?

Yeah that is the car I was thinking of. I was thinking it was 4WD but maybe was confusing the demonstration run.

Have we covered the Smokey Yunick sidecar? There was a car built in Indy that Arnie Knepper drove for a team called MVS or DVS or something like that.

Many of these Indianapolis cars are covered in one of the newer -and better books- about Indianapolis in the 60s, called:

Indy's Wildest Decade by Alex Gabbard.

A good read!
Paul

Originally posted by paulhooft
Many of these Indianapolis cars are covered in one of the newer -and better books- about Indianapolis in the 60s, called:

Indy's Wildest Decade by Alex Gabbard.

A good read!
Paul

Just bought it on Amazon. How I love 'one-click'!

Allen

Allen,

If it is delivered at your home:
Please tell me ,
If I am wrong...
Paul

Have we covered the Smokey Yunick sidecar?

it is in the book...
and there is some talk about another intresting none by him too:
A tilting Indy car by Smokey Yunick called the Left Turn !
It must be one of the forgotten gems of Indianapolis...
I have seen one photo of it , but love to hear and see more!
Next: a tread on Smokey Yunick?
Paul

Here's some information about the 67 eagles and the 1972 coyote:

http://www.microweld...tion/index.html

The 1972 coyote is called a model III, with the 1971 car a model II, can we say that the 1967-1970 cars where all model I ? They look all the same anyway.

This site reveals nearly the complete story of the Antares Manta after 1972!


http://www.fasiautom...ypics/index.htm

At age 19, Keith Schuck (now the owner of FasiAutomotika) was blessed
with the opportunity to assemble 1 of 5 Monoque chassis, Miller Manta champ cars
(previously the Antres). Built in a small champ car shop,
this car which was owned by Ed Finley, Gary Miller and crew was powered
by a 305 cid sprint engine.
Future engine builder Keith Schuck had his second attempt
at long range engine reliability in the small block Chevy-powered Manta.
USAC ruling at that time allowed stock block entries.

So in 1975 this car was entered by Shamrock Racing (owned by Finley, Miller and crew); there are pictures from the following races:

1975 Milwaukee -> Antares, not Eagle like Phil Harmes reports
1975 Phoenix / fall race -> DNS, not mentioned by Phil
1976 Trenton
1976 Milwaukee

For 1977 Ken Mahoney took over the team and it was then named "B/M" or "BFM" (probably Biederstedt-(Finley)-Mahoney), the site features pictures from
the 1977 Indianapolis with an Offy engine (not mentioned in the trackside report) and the team continued with the car until the early 80s.

The source for the 8 Lightnings including a mystery Laydown version:

http://www.donedmund.../indy/index.htm

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Novi was ònly the brand of engine, which striclty spoken was born as the Winfield V8 but later on took/got the Novi name. Cars were named Novi too but other than that '65 Granatelli car, all chassis were ordered from outside suppliers thus as a car brand, it officialy doesn't exist. But try to explain that to the many fans of the cars!

I strongly object against that: there was never such an animal as a "Kurtis-Kraft/Novi", these cars were Novis pure and simple! I could understand the point if Novi had bought off-the-shelf KK chassis and fitted their engine, but alas, that wasn't so. The 1946 Novi was a Novi-design, its building outfarmed to Frank Kurtis ("Kurtis-Kraft" didn't even exist then!), whereas the later cars were Specials as well. Do you call a 50s Ferrari a "Gilco/Ferrari", then? Or the 1925 Halford an "Aston-Martin/Halford"? The 1915 Sebring a "Marmon/Duesenberg"? The twenties Italona an "Itala/Isotta-Fraschini/Hispano-Suiza"???

Originally posted by gbl
The source for the 8 Lightnings including a mystery Laydown version:

http://www.donedmund.../indy/index.htm

Nothing mysterious about the "Laydown", it was the 1979 car with the Drake-Offy tilted to one side, raced by Johnny Parsons in '79 and '80.

Originally posted by fines

Nothing mysterious about the "Laydown", it was the 1979 car with the Drake-Offy tilted to one side, raced by Johnny Parsons in '79 and '80.

Is this the same car that appeared in 1977 but only ran in practice and was then Parsons' 16T backup car at Indy in 1978?

Allen

I realize I'm treading on thin ice here...

I was under the impression it was new in '79, but I may be confusing it with the Drake V8-engined car. I seem to recall I posted something about this a few years ago, when I was more immersed in the subject. Perhaps a search on "Drake V8" would yield some results...

I was at the Toronto Auto Show today and they had an exhibit on automotive aerodynamics. One of the cars they had on display was the 1957/58 Belond Special, Salih chassis, lay down offy driven by Sam Hanks in 57 and Jimmy Bryan in 58, both winning the Indy 500. Enjoy the pics

Originally posted by fines

I strongly object against that: there was never such an animal as a "Kurtis-Kraft/Novi", these cars were Novis pure and simple! I could understand the point if Novi had bought off-the-shelf KK chassis and fitted their engine, but alas, that wasn't so. The 1946 Novi was a Novi-design, its building outfarmed to Frank Kurtis ("Kurtis-Kraft" didn't even exist then!), whereas the later cars were Specials as well. Do you call a 50s Ferrari a "Gilco/Ferrari", then? Or the 1925 Halford an "Aston-Martin/Halford"? The 1915 Sebring a "Marmon/Duesenberg"? The twenties Italona an "Itala/Isotta-Fraschini/Hispano-Suiza"???

I am such a rookie in history that none of the names you mention do ring a bell with me.....

About the Novis, I must agree that indeed the FWD's were designed and the work being carried on behalf of. In that respect , yes, then there were two Novis. But the four roadsters were based on the standard "500" chassis, the lkatest version but then modified to take the V8. No revolutionary new designs from outside and ordered with KK as with the FWD's.
So I won't name call these Novi-Novi's or just Novi, just like I won't call "Fergie" the Novy-by-Ferguson-Novi. Yes I speak about them as Novis but technically that's not correct I think.

Henri Greuter

Henri, I was desperately trying to think of more common examples, but my mind wasn't up to it...

Try the Honda RA300; by your definition we should be calling it a Lola/Honda! The Rebaque a Penske? The 1954 Vanwall a Cooper/Vanwall???

The UK production racing car business offers better examples. March and Brabham outsourced the manufacture of their frames to Arch Motors and others but the cars are never calls Archs.

In the era I know best, I can think of the BRM P126s being built by Len Terry, a McLaren M23 being built by BS Fabrications, a Ferrari chassis being built by Thompson and the Lec being built by Mike Pilbeam. There's a fine line between a company doing most of the job but outsourcing the chassis construction and a sponsor. The Lec is a good example here: the F1 Register actually calls it a Pilbeam in their records as Lec could be regarded as a mere sponsor.

I'm glad I started my USAC research in 1971 as the chassis builder is pretty clear in the 1970s. However, I'm finding that the late 1960s cars can be very different. For example, the Navarro is, to my UK-trained thinking, a Watson-AMC or a Watson-Rambler if you prefer, as Barney Navarro was 'just' the engine tuner and entrant. But I would imagine Indy historians would call it the Navarro. The 1971 Watson entries are, to me, 1968 Eagles but Phil Harms calls them Watsons. The #54 Jack Adams Aircraft Turbine Special is a favorite example: I have it as as a Bryant-Allison!

I'm not sure we'll find a 'technically correct' answer to all this.

Allen

Originally posted by fines

I strongly object against that: there was never such an animal as a "Kurtis-Kraft/Novi", these cars were Novis pure and simple! I could understand the point if Novi had bought off-the-shelf KK chassis and fitted their engine, but alas, that wasn't so. The 1946 Novi was a Novi-design, its building outfarmed to Frank Kurtis ("Kurtis-Kraft" didn't even exist then!), whereas the later cars were Specials as well. Do you call a 50s Ferrari a "Gilco/Ferrari", then? Or the 1925 Halford an "Aston-Martin/Halford"? The 1915 Sebring a "Marmon/Duesenberg"? The twenties Italona an "Itala/Isotta-Fraschini/Hispano-Suiza"???

Fines,

Of course not. In the era of the Novi engine, only a very few cars were truly known by their chassis builder, or referred to by the press as being the marque of the chassis builder--the best example I can think of being the Maserati driven by Wilbur Shaw in 39-41--that car was almost always referred to in press accounts as the "Boyle Maserati", but then the chassis, engine and bodywork were all built by Maserati.

However, the "Novi" wasn't always called the "Novi" either. The '41 car was termed, as it should have been, the Bowes Seal Fast Special, after the car's sponsor, Bowes Seal Fast Corporation of Indianapolis, then a major supplier of tire patch kits and tire repair materials and tools. The chassis was listed (correctly) as Miller-Ford--as that is where it came from, and the engine was called a "Winfield V8", as it was Ed and Bud Winfield who conceived the idea for it.

In 1946, while the new front-drive car was correctly described in the press, and the Speedway program as the Novi Governor Special, the engine was still attributed to the Winfields, called a Winfield V8. The description of the chassis was correctly given as Kurtis. By 1947, however, the Novi name was pretty much popularly applied to the engine as well, and given the legendary nature of the cars powered by this potent V8, the name Novi stuck with them all the way through 1965, even Andy Granitelli referring to even the last of the breed, the 4WD cars as Novi's.

One ought to wonder at the modesty of both Fred Offenhauser and Leo Goosen, however, in light of the mid-1970's naming of the last modification of the turbocharged Offenhauser engine as the DGS (Drake--the engine manufacturer, Goosen--the draftsman/Engineer/designer, Sparks--Art Sparks--engineer who came up with the idea of the revised top end) in 1941 and later. Perhaps the Winfield/Novi engine should have been named the OGW? (O-for Offenhauser, whose company produced the engine, G-for Goosen, who did all the drafting and engineering, and Winfield--for the brothers who came up with the idea in the first place).

But, you are technically correct: Almost none of the cars that Frank Kurtis built truly carried his name, except on entry blanks, or in the history books, no more than did any Kuzma, Watson, etc. chassis, until in later years when they were being described for readers. But, technically, the "specials" that have dominated Indianapolis since the end of the 91cid era of the late 20's, should always be described as to their chassis & engine sources, or so it seems to me, lest we somehow find writers referring to the "dominating engines" built by Bowes, DA, Filter Queen. or in the 70, by Hy-Gain. Thus, a postwar, pre-4WD "Novi", to me at least, will always be described as a Kurtis (chassis) Novi (engine), but more easily and simply called a "Novi".

Art

Jeez, Louise,

I think that we sometimes get so damned wrapped up fighting the alligators that are chewing on our ass we forget that the original idea was to drain the pond.

There is a serious problem with the use of a "typical" database orientation when working on issues which can be as subtle and complex as some of those we seem to be dealing with here (as well as in other areas as well).

To go back to the GP examples for a moment: While we call it a "Ferrari," we also need to know or realize or acknowledge that the actual work was done by Gilco; the same with work done by Arch or Progressive or BS for various British teams.

One problem that I hesitiate to bring up (again) is that there is an effort perhaps to force upon this endeavor a taxonomy which may not necessarily fit, but damn well better fit if it knows what is right for it. However, the former taxonomy seems to not meet the needs being placed upon it, so something has to give.

One of the reasons I abandoned using a database format, especially for this area of endeavor, is that there is greater need for notes and other information than a typical database format can offer. Most likely this is more a reflection of my personal predjudices than anything else, true, but we are still literally years away from the level of knowledge and familiarity which we completely take for granted in the GP/F1 world at the moment.

It is clear that there are many missing pieces to this puzzle which are most likely being sat up at the IMS or at USAC or other places which would go a long ways to making this more accurate and better nuanced. The Laycock notecards, USAC technical spec sheets, and other such information which usually includes much detailed information about the entries would be invaluable. However, access is hit-or-miss or restricted or they simply don't seem to exist.

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson


Fines,

Of course not. In the era of the Novi engine, only a very few cars were truly known by their chassis builder, or referred to by the press as being the marque of the chassis builder--the best example I can think of being the Maserati driven by Wilbur Shaw in 39-41--that car was almost always referred to in press accounts as the "Boyle Maserati", but then the chassis, engine and bodywork were all built by Maserati.

However, the "Novi" wasn't always called the "Novi" either. The '41 car was termed, as it should have been, the Bowes Seal Fast Special, after the car's sponsor, Bowes Seal Fast Corporation of Indianapolis, then a major supplier of tire patch kits and tire repair materials and tools. The chassis was listed (correctly) as Miller-Ford--as that is where it came from, and the engine was called a "Winfield V8", as it was Ed and Bud Winfield who conceived the idea for it.

In 1946, while the new front-drive car was correctly described in the press, and the Speedway program as the Novi Governor Special, the engine was still attributed to the Winfields, called a Winfield V8. The description of the chassis was correctly given as Kurtis. By 1947, however, the Novi name was pretty much popularly applied to the engine as well, and given the legendary nature of the cars powered by this potent V8, the name Novi stuck with them all the way through 1965, even Andy Granitelli referring to even the last of the breed, the 4WD cars as Novi's.

One ought to wonder at the modesty of both Fred Offenhauser and Leo Goosen, however, in light of the mid-1970's naming of the last modification of the turbocharged Offenhauser engine as the DGS (Drake--the engine manufacturer, Goosen--the draftsman/Engineer/designer, Sparks--Art Sparks--engineer who came up with the idea of the revised top end) in 1941 and later. Perhaps the Winfield/Novi engine should have been named the OGW? (O-for Offenhauser, whose company produced the engine, G-for Goosen, who did all the drafting and engineering, and Winfield--for the brothers who came up with the idea in the first place).

But, you are technically correct: Almost none of the cars that Frank Kurtis built truly carried his name, except on entry blanks, or in the history books, no more than did any Kuzma, Watson, etc. chassis, until in later years when they were being described for readers. But, technically, the "specials" that have dominated Indianapolis since the end of the 91cid era of the late 20's, should always be described as to their chassis & engine sources, or so it seems to me, lest we somehow find writers referring to the "dominating engines" built by Bowes, DA, Filter Queen. or in the 70, by Hy-Gain. Thus, a postwar, pre-4WD "Novi", to me at least, will always be described as a Kurtis (chassis) Novi (engine), but more easily and simply called a "Novi".

Art

Art,
I can't say it any better than you did.

It is also a but remeniscent with, for example the use of the name Lotus (brabham or whatever Garagisti constructo in the 70's)
Lotus was all about the chassis Chapman designed and he took whatever engine he felt the best to have at the time or could get. So we talks about the Lotusses but they were Lotus-Climax or whatever they had in the back

Lew Welch had his engine as the heart of his team, that was what his cars were all about, that engine.
Now to `home` it, he had to order a chassis and bought whatever was available to him. But then, there were not many options for someone who wanted a chassis. other than a few mechanic's that built the occasional ride for their team owner. In the early 50's Kurtis was about the only one building them on a regular base and on orders. Watson begaon to built customer cars only late 50's.
Yes I agree, it is different, but there is some simularity in it. We talk about the kit-car era and only name the brand of the chassis, igniring that it was powered by Cossies, Novi's were about the engine and the chassis builder was easily overlooked and not mentioned.
I also talk about the Novis, like almost everyone does, but the cars actually were Kurtis-Novis, or, if the entry sheets at IMS don't lie for the early 50's: Kurtis-Winfield V8's.

Henri Greuter

I don't want to drag this on forever, but Art, how do you come to say the chassis of the first Novi (or "Bowes") was correctly called a "Miller-Ford"? That is another misnomer, like "Lancia-Ferrari" - look at the Indy entry lists, these cars were called simply "Ford V8" when new. I agree, we shouldn't take every sponsor's name as gospel and talk about the "Hy-Gain" finishing first from the "Commander Motor Home" - these were standard customer cars from McLaren and AAR, after all - but all the same I dislike "made-up" names when there's no need for them: Why call a Sumar a "Blouch" - that's like calling a Williams FW07 a "Head" or a Tyrrell Mk1 a "Gardner": Nonsense! Also, the Clancy 6-wheeler is a Clancy and not a "Ewing", "Kurtis" or "Bowen" or whatever.

I don't want to drag this on forever, but Art, how do you come to say the chassis of the first Novi (or "Bowes") was correctly called a "Miller-Ford"? That is another misnomer, like "Lancia-Ferrari" - look at the Indy entry lists, these cars were called simply "Ford V8" when new. I agree, we shouldn't take every sponsor's name as gospel and talk about the "Hy-Gain" finishing first from the "Commander Motor Home" - these were standard customer cars from McLaren and AAR, after all - but all the same I dislike "made-up" names when there's no need for them: Why call a Sumar a "Blouch" - that's like calling a Williams FW07 a "Head" or a Tyrrell Mk1 a "Gardner": Nonsense! Also, the Clancy 6-wheeler is a Clancy and not a "Ewing", "Kurtis" or "Bowen" or whatever. And the Leitenberger is not a "Silnes/Sherman", the Navarro is not a "Watson/AMC", and the Jack Adams is certainly not a "Bryant/Allison"!

Michael, I think what Art is saying that is thinking of this in "European" terms doesn't necessarily work very well and perhaps adds to the already considerable confusion.

Postscript. Art points out the real disconnect that I alluded to earlier and why I make an effort to record a race entry with its race number, entrant, designation as a special, and then the constructor and engine information.