Ok, ok... perhaps the picture was not printed well, as happened sometime... but I seem to remember the green car.
The next GP (in Spain, I think) Team Tyrrell had a blue Matra (Elf sponsored) for J.Y.Stewart.
Stewart in a green Matra?
Started by
Nanni Dietrich
, Mar 08 2005 11:33
66 replies to this topic
#1
Nanni Dietrich
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 11:33
I remember a picture of the Matra MS9-Ford, entered at the South African GP by Team Tyrrel, sponsored Caltex (not Elf), and in a colour light green (not blue).
Ok, ok... perhaps the picture was not printed well, as happened sometime... but I seem to remember the green car.
The next GP (in Spain, I think) Team Tyrrell had a blue Matra (Elf sponsored) for J.Y.Stewart.
Ok, ok... perhaps the picture was not printed well, as happened sometime... but I seem to remember the green car.
The next GP (in Spain, I think) Team Tyrrell had a blue Matra (Elf sponsored) for J.Y.Stewart.
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#2
Huw Jadvantich
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 11:49
Thats correct it was Stewart and it was a drab green Matra, and it was the South African GP.
The picture was printed in Motorsport. The rest of this is purely from memory but I think it was a prototype f2 car with a Cosworth DFV, it certainly had a rather ugly nose cone and looked thoroughly undeveloped compared to the car Stewart used for the world championship in 1969.
The picture was printed in Motorsport. The rest of this is purely from memory but I think it was a prototype f2 car with a Cosworth DFV, it certainly had a rather ugly nose cone and looked thoroughly undeveloped compared to the car Stewart used for the world championship in 1969.
#3
Macca
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 12:13
http://perso.wanadoo...l/M-Tyrrell.htm
Picture there; it started out with a 'normal' nose in practise but overheated IIRC.
Paul M
Picture there; it started out with a 'normal' nose in practise but overheated IIRC.
Paul M
#4
st59cz
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 12:52
I suppose it was only primer and not definitely color...
#5
FLB
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 13:15
Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
Thats correct it was Stewart and it was a drab green Matra, and it was the South African GP.
The picture was printed in Motorsport. The rest of this is purely from memory but I think it was a prototype f2 car with a Cosworth DFV, it certainly had a rather ugly nose cone and looked thoroughly undeveloped compared to the car Stewart used for the world championship in 1969.
You're absolutely correct. Stewart drove an MS9, a F2 car, at the 1968 South African GP. The team felt the new car wasn't ready yet, so Stewart drove a chassis he'd tested before (and liked). The nose on Stewart's car was like a big gaping mouth, to accomodate for the DFV's cooling.
#6
Hieronymus
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 13:39
I have a nice photo of Stewart in the green Matra at Kyalami. Have to find it...
#7
Nanni Dietrich
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 13:48
At Kyalami 1968 Team Tyrrell entered two Matra's: the green Caltex sponsored MS9 for Stewart and... what car (and what colour... and what sponsor ;) ) for JP Beltoise? Perhaps a MS7 F. 2?
#8
Hieronymus
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 14:06
Beltoise won the Cape South Easter race at Killarney, Cape Town on 6 January 1968 in a F2 Matra MS7. The car was blue and I recall a big Caltex sign on the nose of the car...there is something about this race, that I can't lay my finger on at the moment. Some controversy...
#9
FLB
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 14:08
Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
At Kyalami 1968 Team Tyrrell entered two Matra's: the green Caltex sponsored MS9 for Stewart and... what car (and what colour... and what sponsor ;) ) for JP Beltoise? Perhaps a MS7 F. 2?
According to Michel Hubin's Championnat du monde des conducteurs 68, Beltoise indeed drove an MS7.
#10
Hieronymus
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 14:18
Yes, and the same car he used in the 1968 SAGP was raced at Killarney - 6 days later. The car was blue in Johannesburg and still blue in Cape Town.
#12
VDP
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 15:09
JP Beltoise was entered by Matra Sports with a Formula 2 car with ballast.
For the south african GP there werre two Matra international the interim car Ms 9 hastly prepared and not painted only in primer and a back up Ms 7 cosw FVA, which color this one ?
The color in 1967 for the fomula 2 cars were green.
Robert
For the south african GP there werre two Matra international the interim car Ms 9 hastly prepared and not painted only in primer and a back up Ms 7 cosw FVA, which color this one ?
The color in 1967 for the fomula 2 cars were green.
Robert
#13
Barry Boor
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 19:07
Green always seemed a strange primer colour for a Matra blue topcoat to me.
But, it was definitely an undercoat - not a sponsor colour or anything like that.
But, it was definitely an undercoat - not a sponsor colour or anything like that.
#14
Bonde
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 19:31
To quote from DCN's superb 'history of the Grand Prix Car 1966-91', and as recorded by Jabby Crombac:
"Tyrrel was far from impressed when [his] car turned up... ...painted in a coat of ugly green primer, just to make him feel this [MS9 F-2 chassis w. DFV test hack] was not a proper racing car." Tyrrel wanted to race it ASAP - Matra were more circumspect.
Green hues are typical of aerospace (zinc or other chromate) pigmented primer for aluminium alloy.
Interesting, BTW, that March would take the Matra-like route in 1972 - but starting out with an F1 car and then modify their F2 car to replace their 721X F1 dog...
"Tyrrel was far from impressed when [his] car turned up... ...painted in a coat of ugly green primer, just to make him feel this [MS9 F-2 chassis w. DFV test hack] was not a proper racing car." Tyrrel wanted to race it ASAP - Matra were more circumspect.
Green hues are typical of aerospace (zinc or other chromate) pigmented primer for aluminium alloy.
Interesting, BTW, that March would take the Matra-like route in 1972 - but starting out with an F1 car and then modify their F2 car to replace their 721X F1 dog...
#15
Barry Boor
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 19:36
Green hues are typical of aerospace (zinc or other chromate) pigmented primer for aluminium alloy.
Thank you, Anders. Just the sort of thing an engineer like yourself would know.
#16
David Beard
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 19:54
Originally posted by Bonde
Green hues are typical of aerospace (zinc or other chromate) pigmented primer for aluminium alloy.
I've been round one or two aircraft factories and noted the green primer: it's a sort of matt BRP.
#17
Roger Clark
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 22:32
A few people have said that the MS9 was a Formula 2 car. It may have been based on the MS7, but it was different in may respect. Most obviously, the F2 had a full length monocoque, whereas the the F1 used the engine as a stressed member with the monocoque finishing behind the driver. It also had hubs and uprights from the Group 6 sports car, larger wheels and a DG instead of an Ft Hewland. THe central moncocoque was based on the formula 2 car which restricted fuel capacity and I believe that if it had lasted the distance at Kyalami it would have had to stop.
#18
Bonde
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 23:00
Roger,
I believe you are correct in your assessment of the MS9 - it was definitely not the sort of job you could just retrofit back to F2 spec. I should have written 'F2-based'. Thanks for the clarification - accuracy matters!
I believe you are correct in your assessment of the MS9 - it was definitely not the sort of job you could just retrofit back to F2 spec. I should have written 'F2-based'. Thanks for the clarification - accuracy matters!
#19
David Beard
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Posted 08 March 2005 - 23:25
Originally posted by Bonde
Roger,
I believe you are correct in your assessment of the MS9 - it was definitely not the sort of job you could just retrofit back to F2 spec. I should have written 'F2-based'. Thanks for the clarification - accuracy matters!
Roger is always right
. One of these days, I am going to catch him out.
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#20
billthekat
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Posted 09 March 2005 - 00:07
Originally posted by David Beard
One of these days, I am going to catch him out.
David, Dream on.....
#21
Hieronymus
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Posted 09 March 2005 - 07:05
Originally posted by Hieronymus
Beltoise won the Cape South Easter race at Killarney, Cape Town on 6 January 1968 in a F2 Matra MS7. The car was blue and I recall a big Caltex sign on the nose of the car...there is something about this race, that I can't lay my finger on at the moment. Some controversy...
An ice cream paper blown up by the ever-obliged wind, from which the South Easter race takes it name, got clogged in Beltoise's radiator grille. This lead to overheating and a pit stop on lap 38. Two laps later he had to pit again to top up the radiator after it lost water. JPB's only real challenge came from John Love and after Love retired, J-P cruised to any easy win.
Beltoise's blue Matra also carried sponsorship from Elf, apart from Caltex.
Nanni
I have found the nice photo of Stewart's green Matra. Can scan and send it to you, if required...
#22
Nanni Dietrich
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Posted 09 March 2005 - 09:26
Thanks, Hieronymus
I've sent you a PM.
Watching the pictures in the page Macca wrote, I see the start of 1968 South African GP: JYS started the race well and leaded for some laps, if my memory goes well...;)
I've sent you a PM.
Watching the pictures in the page Macca wrote, I see the start of 1968 South African GP: JYS started the race well and leaded for some laps, if my memory goes well...;)
#23
glyn parham
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Posted 09 March 2005 - 22:42
Fascinating thread and one on which I was given the real reason for the car appearing in green rather than blue by my French friend Dominique Pinaud.
Dominique was working for Matra during the eighties and nineties on the Renault Espace and in his spare time was keeping the Matra race cars running and appearing at various Historic meetings. He told me that way back in 1969 the team were late finishing the car before it was sent to South Africa and did not have time to paint it.
No problem, extra hand luggage, included pots of paint and spray guns etc were packed and the car was duly painted in the paddock at Kyalami. A short time later the team noted that the car was surrounded by a puddle of blue paint, apparently the fibre glass bodywork and the paint didn't bond due to a chemical reaction in the fibre glass and the solution to the problem would have to wait until the team got back to France.
Glyn
Dominique was working for Matra during the eighties and nineties on the Renault Espace and in his spare time was keeping the Matra race cars running and appearing at various Historic meetings. He told me that way back in 1969 the team were late finishing the car before it was sent to South Africa and did not have time to paint it.
No problem, extra hand luggage, included pots of paint and spray guns etc were packed and the car was duly painted in the paddock at Kyalami. A short time later the team noted that the car was surrounded by a puddle of blue paint, apparently the fibre glass bodywork and the paint didn't bond due to a chemical reaction in the fibre glass and the solution to the problem would have to wait until the team got back to France.
Glyn
#24
philippe7
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Posted 10 March 2005 - 15:40
....and of course, Caltex was the name of one of the french petrol companies that were merged together to form Elf . ( with Fina, I think, and some others I don't recall... ) I was a kid then but I do remember all the signs of the petrol stations belonging to those brands being "secretely" replaced and covered up with black tarpaulins, and then all uncovered together on the morning of the official launch day....
#25
D-Type
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Posted 10 March 2005 - 17:52
Nope. Caltex is an American company, the Californian Texas Oil Company, one of the companies formed when Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company was broken up. The changing of the branding was more likely the result of Caltex selling a load of outlets to Elf, who are (I think) French Government owned. Or it could be some sort of joint venture like Shell and BP used to have, and maybe still have, in Britain.Originally posted by philippe7
....and of course, Caltex was the name of one of the french petrol companies that were merged together to form Elf . ( with Fina, I think, and some others I don't recall... ) I was a kid then but I do remember all the signs of the petrol stations belonging to those brands being "secretely" replaced and covered up with black tarpaulins, and then all uncovered together on the morning of the official launch day....
#26
philippe charuest
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Posted 10 March 2005 - 18:14
right caltex is a company related to texaco, elf was create in 68 by the fusion of many small french oil company and they bought french division of many foreign company like caltex . the merge with antar and fina(from belgium ) came much later. petro -canada was done in the seventies using the same method by nationalising canadian branch of BP-gulf -elf -fina ect
#27
philippe7
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Posted 10 March 2005 - 18:53
well, right, OK, I was apparently over-simplifying things....sorry about that , but well, you get what I was trying to say.......and if Stewart's Matra was sponsored by Caltex , it hints that Elf had already started acquiring the petrol station network .
If the Fina and Antar takeovers came "much later" , then I really wonder who on earth were those other small companies whose outlets Elf had bought....I used to know, because the topic was hot with my brothers when we were driving round France on the back seat of the family Simca 1000 , but I was only around 12 then , you see ...Anybody knows , seriously ?
#28
philippe charuest
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Posted 10 March 2005 - 20:19
many oil company dont have network of gaz station they are not in the the distribution business . even now big holding like exxon,bp or elf buy oil from "relativily" small oil company.
#29
Ray Bell
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Posted 10 March 2005 - 21:08
Caltex, of course, still operate in Australia...
There are even some old enough to remember when the name changed from Texaco to Caltex.
There are even some old enough to remember when the name changed from Texaco to Caltex.
#30
Hieronymus
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Posted 11 March 2005 - 05:33
Originally posted by Hieronymus
Beltoise's blue Matra also carried sponsorship from Elf, apart from Caltex.
#31
Vicuna
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Posted 11 March 2005 - 19:45
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Caltex, of course, still operate in Australia...
And NZ...
#32
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 March 2005 - 20:36
Originally posted by Vicuna
And NZ...
Anyone there old enough to remember the transition from Texaco?
#33
T54
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Posted 11 March 2005 - 21:43
In 1968, I designed the very precise kit made by Heller in 1/24 scale of the F2 MATRA MS5/7. That kit was pretty intense in its detailing, with a very accurate Cosworth SCA and Hewland MK5 and a multi-piece tub with very exacting bulkheads reproducing the full-size unit with great accuracy. If someone needs it to make a model or to play with CAD, I have a very exacting 3-view drawing with sections of the tub and nose. Hand-drawn of course, CAD did not even exist then...
Regards,
T54
Regards,
T54
#34
Alan Cox
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 13:31
Seen at Donington yesterday. I can't say that I have ever seen the MS9 before - No details provided of ownership but I presume it is from Abba Kogan's all-encompassing Matra collection.
Edited by Alan Cox, 05 February 2011 - 13:55.
#36
David Lawson
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 16:40
The MS9 was at the Donington GP Live meeting in 2007, I can't find my programme to check the owner/driver of the car.
David
David
Edited by David Lawson, 05 February 2011 - 16:42.
#37
Ralf Pickel
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 16:55
Looking at the helmet I would suggest it is Abba Kogan.
#38
Duc-Man
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 16:57
The MS9 was at the Donington GP Live meeting in 2007, I can't find my programme to check the owner/driver of the car.
David
Jaysis! That could cause eyecancer! Never seen such a horrible looking car from that timeframe before.
#39
jj2728
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 17:08
More excellent photos. My word I'd forgotten how cobbled together that car looked.
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#40
D-Type
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 21:26
Compared to the photo in Motor Sport February 1968, it looks as if the car is now a daker shade of green, which could well be simply a trick of the light or ink fading in 40 years. But it also looks a lot shinier which is a shame. If it was matt primer then, that's what they should aim for now. Or am i being overly picky?
#41
David Shaw
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 21:54
It looks like an army prototype for a high-speed one man tank.
#42
jj2728
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 22:14
Compared to the photo in Motor Sport February 1968, it looks as if the car is now a daker shade of green, which could well be simply a trick of the light or ink fading in 40 years. But it also looks a lot shinier which is a shame. If it was matt primer then, that's what they should aim for now. Or am i being overly picky?
Looking at the photos closely, I'm pretty sure it's a matte finish and as close as possible to the original color. Notice also it's 2 tone which is correct.
#43
Vitesse2
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 22:17
Duncan, that's the infamous issue with the duff green printing: Hill and Clark in emerald green Lotus 49s and Graham in a green helmet!Compared to the photo in Motor Sport February 1968, it looks as if the car is now a daker shade of green, which could well be simply a trick of the light or ink fading in 40 years. But it also looks a lot shinier which is a shame. If it was matt primer then, that's what they should aim for now. Or am i being overly picky?
#44
macoran
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Posted 05 February 2011 - 23:17
When I started compiling my Formula One Encyclopedia 10 years ago, there wasn't a proper picture of MS9,
so I have always treasured Hector Luis Bergandi's painting of Jackie at the S African GP
so I have always treasured Hector Luis Bergandi's painting of Jackie at the S African GP
#45
mfd
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Posted 06 February 2011 - 00:24
I imagine it has clear matt lacquer over a regular green paint that's a similar shade to the original. Helps keep it clean, in the spirit of the original. If that Aero spec alloy primer was out there, they could have given it a try, but long term "pretty" I doubt...Compared to the photo in Motor Sport February 1968, it looks as if the car is now a daker shade of green, which could well be simply a trick of the light or ink fading in 40 years. But it also looks a lot shinier which is a shame. If it was matt primer then, that's what they should aim for now. Or am i being overly picky?
#46
arttidesco
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Posted 06 February 2011 - 00:49
SLOT IRCC Caltex & Shell were the two big brands in southern Africa at the time.
In 1977 after I got my driving licence, the first time I filled up my folks FIAT 124 Special at the nearest garage in Luanshya, Zambia it was definitely Caltex branded.
In 1977 after I got my driving licence, the first time I filled up my folks FIAT 124 Special at the nearest garage in Luanshya, Zambia it was definitely Caltex branded.
#47
Peter Morley
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 14:46
The original car was presumably presented in etch-primer (having not had enough time to slap a coat of blue paint on?).
Since etch-primer is hygroscopic you shouldn't leave it unpainted for long and certainly should not take a chance on it being rained on.
Maybe they have etch-primed the car as original and then applied some kind of sealant/varnish to protect it from the elements.
Since etch-primer is hygroscopic you shouldn't leave it unpainted for long and certainly should not take a chance on it being rained on.
Maybe they have etch-primed the car as original and then applied some kind of sealant/varnish to protect it from the elements.
#48
mfd
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 15:53
I somehow doubt H&H would do it like that, it's not their style Peter.The original car was presumably presented in etch-primer (having not had enough time to slap a coat of blue paint on?).
Since etch-primer is hygroscopic you shouldn't leave it unpainted for long and certainly should not take a chance on it being rained on.
Maybe they have etch-primed the car as original and then applied some kind of sealant/varnish to protect it from the elements.
#49
barrykm
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 16:02
Compared to the photo in Motor Sport February 1968, it looks as if the car is now a daker shade of green, which could well be simply a trick of the light or ink fading in 40 years. But it also looks a lot shinier which is a shame. If it was matt primer then, that's what they should aim for now. Or am i being overly picky?
Agree, not the same green. Original was lighter. No disrespect to the current owners of course.
Edited by barrykm, 08 February 2011 - 16:03.
#50
Barry Boor
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Posted 08 February 2011 - 18:58
No you aren't, Duncan.
Matt green primer is what it should be.
Matt green primer is what it should be.
