My friend Adelino Dinis, Chief Editor of Classic Car Magazine in Portugal, has approached me with some questions related to Mario Araujo de Cabral, the first F1 Portuguese driver, of whom he is writing a biography.
Whislt some of the questions have been already solved, I will like your help on two specific items, both related to victories by this driver :
a) In 1957 there was a GT race in Madrid (of all places, what a shame I cannot answer myself this one!), namely in a track at the Casa de Campo (that I heard my father talk about when I was a kid), and Mario Araujo de Cabral took the win. Any details, like date, will be extremelly welcomed.
b) In 1960, and driving the Centro-Sud's Maserati 300S, he won another sports car race, namely the "GP de Guanabara", in Rio de Janeiro. Details end up there, so again I will be delighted to hear any other that you might find.
Thanks in advance,
Felix Muelas
Mario Araujo de Cabral : help !
Started by
Felix Muelas
, Aug 02 2000 17:13
28 replies to this topic
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#2
Racer.Demon
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Posted 09 August 2000 - 13:49
Dear friend,
I think you finally managed to come up with a question that no-one on this Forum (and with that the possible extension to no-one in this world) has the answer to.
Congratulations... ;-)
I think you finally managed to come up with a question that no-one on this Forum (and with that the possible extension to no-one in this world) has the answer to.
Congratulations... ;-)
#3
Darren Galpin
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Posted 09 August 2000 - 14:00
I did check, but I came up with nothing....
#4
Marcel Schot
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Posted 10 August 2000 - 06:05
Same here, searched myself silly, but there's no trace of these 2 particular races.
Only thing clues I found is that of the Maserati 300S cars, only 2 were certainly in South America around 1960 : #3062 and #3072. Maybe something for our Maserati serial specialist Don?
Scuderio Centro Sud appears to have had #3068 and #3077 (which is suposedly ex-#3056, which crashed in Venezuela). But then again, you probably knew that already, since it's easily available on the net.
Only thing clues I found is that of the Maserati 300S cars, only 2 were certainly in South America around 1960 : #3062 and #3072. Maybe something for our Maserati serial specialist Don?
Scuderio Centro Sud appears to have had #3068 and #3077 (which is suposedly ex-#3056, which crashed in Venezuela). But then again, you probably knew that already, since it's easily available on the net.
#5
Felix Muelas
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 09:14
Guys,
thanks for the comments.
I was expecting a "no reply" forever on this subject, and although disappointed for the lack of data -I was truly believing that Darren would come up with the answer- I have appreciated your attention.
Of course there must be an answer, so expect seeing this thread re-appear later in the year, when I will finally find them.
:-)
fm
thanks for the comments.
I was expecting a "no reply" forever on this subject, and although disappointed for the lack of data -I was truly believing that Darren would come up with the answer- I have appreciated your attention.
Of course there must be an answer, so expect seeing this thread re-appear later in the year, when I will finally find them.
:-)
fm
#6
John Cross
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 17:47
There is a book called 'Time and Two Seats: Five Decades of Long Distance Racing' by Dr. Janos Wimpffen which may have the answer. Does anyone have this book, and if so can they see if it answers Felix's question. More info on the book is here:
http://www.vintagera...duct_review.cfm
and here:
http://www.net-link....ndTwoSeats.html
It's supposed to be very good - so far I have resisted the temptation, but I'm weakening...
http://www.vintagera...duct_review.cfm
and here:
http://www.net-link....ndTwoSeats.html
It's supposed to be very good - so far I have resisted the temptation, but I'm weakening...
#7
Joe Fan
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 20:00
Felix and John, I am currently in search of similar non-championship sport car race result information for Masten Gregory and I e-mailed the author of "Time and Two Seats" and asked him if his book contained non-championship sports car races and here is what he had to say:
As to the scope of Time and Two Seats, it's essentially only the points scoring races, with some slight variations. From 1960-1965 the FIA awarded a GT championship which included many minor events. Those are all there. Then in the late 70s there was a World Challenge for Endurance Drivers which was largely IMSA inspired. Since the end of the formal WSC in 1992 I've included the various branches; the new WSC, BPR, FIA GT, etc
As to the scope of Time and Two Seats, it's essentially only the points scoring races, with some slight variations. From 1960-1965 the FIA awarded a GT championship which included many minor events. Those are all there. Then in the late 70s there was a World Challenge for Endurance Drivers which was largely IMSA inspired. Since the end of the formal WSC in 1992 I've included the various branches; the new WSC, BPR, FIA GT, etc
#8
Felix Muelas
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 21:39
Thanks again for the clue. Now I am wondering two things :
a) If the two Cabral's victories will be included (as 1957 and 1960 in combination with the exotic places of the races look to me like excellent candidates to be left out), and
b) If the price of the basic package is $150 or $190 (each one of the links John quoted has a different price...
John, in order to solve a) do you think you could pass me the email of the author?
Thanks
fm
a) If the two Cabral's victories will be included (as 1957 and 1960 in combination with the exotic places of the races look to me like excellent candidates to be left out), and
b) If the price of the basic package is $150 or $190 (each one of the links John quoted has a different price...
John, in order to solve a) do you think you could pass me the email of the author?
Thanks
fm
#9
Felix Muelas
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 21:41
Sorry Joe, my question is adressed to you...
:-)
:-)
#10
John Cross
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Posted 13 August 2000 - 17:33
Felix,
His email address is on this page:
http://www.sportscar...k/misc/tats.htm
The same site has another review:
http://www.sportscar...iew/tatsrev.htm
I don't think there is anything quite like this for F1, is there?
His email address is on this page:
http://www.sportscar...k/misc/tats.htm
The same site has another review:
http://www.sportscar...iew/tatsrev.htm
I don't think there is anything quite like this for F1, is there?
#11
Felix Muelas
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Posted 16 August 2000 - 11:38
Originally posted by John Cross
I don't think there is anything quite like this for F1, is there?
Thank God!
The idea of a single source scares me to death !
Jokes apart, there are some nice efforts out there directed as you know, in the majority of cases, just to the World Championship races (Mike Lang's work comes to mind) but to be honest, not until I get my copy of the Time and Two Seats I will be able to know what exactly you mean by "this".
:-)
Felix
BTW, Janos has been extremelly helpful. As suspected by all of us, no, the book does not include the two races originating this thread, but he has promised to put his contacts in Brazil and Spain (and it's not me, I swear) to investigate further.
I'll keep you posted about the results. I am still convinced we'll get the details (and all of you will be mentioned as acknowledgements in the book...)
#12
John Cross
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Posted 16 August 2000 - 18:02
Felix,
I quite agree that we don't want a 'single source' - perish the thought! I meant a comprehensive volume which describes each race in reasonable detail (the sort of detail on Leif's terrific site, for example). For example, this is from the review I mentioned above:
Is there anything so beautifully written and researched for F1? I certainly haven't got anything!
I quite agree that we don't want a 'single source' - perish the thought! I meant a comprehensive volume which describes each race in reasonable detail (the sort of detail on Leif's terrific site, for example). For example, this is from the review I mentioned above:
One example of the character of this book. Picture Spa-Francorchamps in 1970. Sub-heading "Showdown". Ickx's home ground, time to take his revenge over the two Gulf 917s. "Heading off the grid on a damp but drying track, three of the cars went with lights ablaze, tapping and nudging each other through Eau Rouge and up the hill off towards Stavelot. They were Siffert, Rodriguez and Ickx - Kings of the Golden Age. Kicking up spray while roaring down the Masta Straight at nearly 350 kilometers per hour, Ickx was now forcing himself between the Porsche teammates, who were truly more rivals than cooperative representatives of the same marque. Lap after lap the trio repeatedly broke the lap record, entering altogether new horizons of speed in road racing."
That race saw the debut of Derek Bell in top line sportscars - and János graphically describes the pit-stop fire, Bell trapped in the yellow 512S after the pull wire on the door broke. Then he recounts how Bell was reunited with a 512 in 1994 at Monterey, and the checks the Englishman made on the door pull before he dared venture out onto the track. This isn't just race accounts...it's so much more.
Is there anything so beautifully written and researched for F1? I certainly haven't got anything!
#13
Felix Muelas
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Posted 16 August 2000 - 22:32
John,
I am VERY tempted to pay what still looks to me like a very high price ($190 + $60 in postage -the package is said to weight 9 kilos-) to obtain a standard copy of the Time and Two Seats.
Your quote, must be said, has been quite instrumental in this respect, so of course I will blame you if I am disappointed...;-)
Did I understand correctly and Darren (Galpin) has already a copy? If that is the case, is there any reason, Darren, for me not to buy it? I mean, you are a man who cares for his pounds and pennies so you might be in a position to tell me something...Plus we are friends, remember?
:-)
More to follow...
fm
I am VERY tempted to pay what still looks to me like a very high price ($190 + $60 in postage -the package is said to weight 9 kilos-) to obtain a standard copy of the Time and Two Seats.
Your quote, must be said, has been quite instrumental in this respect, so of course I will blame you if I am disappointed...;-)
Did I understand correctly and Darren (Galpin) has already a copy? If that is the case, is there any reason, Darren, for me not to buy it? I mean, you are a man who cares for his pounds and pennies so you might be in a position to tell me something...Plus we are friends, remember?
:-)
More to follow...
fm
#14
Barry Lake
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Posted 17 August 2000 - 05:38
I bought this two-volume book and admit the cost is enough to send one into shock. But where else can you get all of this information in one place?
The level of research is just beyond belief.
Unfortunately the books are so heavy and are bound in such a way they could easily be destroyed by their own weight.
I have found it better to sit in, say, a lounge chair and cradle the book between your legs so you don't open it right up.
If you lay them flat on a table and go through them, the books begin to distort at the spine.
When paying the price, think of the hours of research they will save - and the likelihood of finding information you might never find elsewhere.
Thank heavens there are people in the world prepared to do this sort of research.
The level of research is just beyond belief.
Unfortunately the books are so heavy and are bound in such a way they could easily be destroyed by their own weight.
I have found it better to sit in, say, a lounge chair and cradle the book between your legs so you don't open it right up.
If you lay them flat on a table and go through them, the books begin to distort at the spine.
When paying the price, think of the hours of research they will save - and the likelihood of finding information you might never find elsewhere.
Thank heavens there are people in the world prepared to do this sort of research.
#15
John Cross
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Posted 17 August 2000 - 19:00
But the question remains - is there anything like this for F1?
#16
TonyKaye
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 01:20
Felix,
I hope I'm not too late with this reply. I've had the data for quite a while but was unable to register with AtlasF1 until today.
Rio de Janeiro GP at the Guanabara Circuit:
Date: November 1960
Distance: 35 x 4.285m = 150km
Results:
1 Mário Araújo Cabral, Por (Maserati 3000cc)1:08:43,3
2 Fernando da Silva Ramos, Bra (Porsche 1500cc)1:09:28,9
3 Daniel Magalhães, Por (Porsche 1500cc)
4 Henrique Casini, Bra (Maserati 4500cc)
5 Luis Milan (Ferrari 5000cc)
6 Frank Francis (Lotus 1300cc)
7 Annie Soisbault, Bel (Porsche 1600cc) no other finishers.
Cabral's Maserati was a 300S loaned by Mimo Dei's Scuderia Centro-Sud and
the Magalhães Porsche, is a 718 RSK.
I hope I'm not too late with this reply. I've had the data for quite a while but was unable to register with AtlasF1 until today.
Rio de Janeiro GP at the Guanabara Circuit:
Date: November 1960
Distance: 35 x 4.285m = 150km
Results:
1 Mário Araújo Cabral, Por (Maserati 3000cc)1:08:43,3
2 Fernando da Silva Ramos, Bra (Porsche 1500cc)1:09:28,9
3 Daniel Magalhães, Por (Porsche 1500cc)
4 Henrique Casini, Bra (Maserati 4500cc)
5 Luis Milan (Ferrari 5000cc)
6 Frank Francis (Lotus 1300cc)
7 Annie Soisbault, Bel (Porsche 1600cc) no other finishers.
Cabral's Maserati was a 300S loaned by Mimo Dei's Scuderia Centro-Sud and
the Magalhães Porsche, is a 718 RSK.
#17
Don Capps
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 03:01
Oh, yea of little faith!!!!
After the "Typ E" and the Ferrari F2 threads I am finding it hard to find the words that adequately describe feelings beyond "Dumbfounded" or "Flabbergasted" when things like this happen.... I was getting ready to toss this one to my Maserati buds...
Absolutely amazing.... Good heavens! What next? Doug Nye, Alan Henry, and Mike Lawrence join Karl here on TNF?
After the "Typ E" and the Ferrari F2 threads I am finding it hard to find the words that adequately describe feelings beyond "Dumbfounded" or "Flabbergasted" when things like this happen.... I was getting ready to toss this one to my Maserati buds...
Absolutely amazing.... Good heavens! What next? Doug Nye, Alan Henry, and Mike Lawrence join Karl here on TNF?
#18
Ray Bell
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 03:10
'ye' of little faith, Don.
Looking at this thread, I was surprised I hadn't seen it before, but it was only active during the period in which I was moving house.
One wonders, though, with a couple of people lately saying that they haven't been able to get on, what is the problem?
It appears Tony has been waiting two months... and he looks like being yet another valuable addition to the ranks, so I guess we should welcome him?
Looking at this thread, I was surprised I hadn't seen it before, but it was only active during the period in which I was moving house.
One wonders, though, with a couple of people lately saying that they haven't been able to get on, what is the problem?
It appears Tony has been waiting two months... and he looks like being yet another valuable addition to the ranks, so I guess we should welcome him?
#19
Barry Lake
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 04:13
Five posts only from Tony so far and he's come up with at least one big winner! I haven't checked the other four yet, but my feeling is we're going to be VERY happy to have him on board.
Is Fernando da Silva Ramos the same Nano da Silva Ramos from Brazil who drove in GPs in 1955-1956?
Is Fernando da Silva Ramos the same Nano da Silva Ramos from Brazil who drove in GPs in 1955-1956?
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#20
Barry Lake
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 04:15
Perhaps Tony can tell us how he finally became registered.
Then maybe we could get Milan from New Zealand on as well.
He still is having trouble and I am sure he will be a valuable addition to the fold.
Then maybe we could get Milan from New Zealand on as well.
He still is having trouble and I am sure he will be a valuable addition to the fold.
#21
Darren Galpin
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 07:00
Felix,
I must admit to having a slightly vested interest in "Time And Two Seats", as the author telephoned me one day to discuss race circuits, although looking at the references it doesn't seem as though he used any of my information! Still, yes it is very expensive, and it is also very detailed - I haven't seen anything else as detailed on Sportscar racing. I mean, I even managed to find Sportscar race information on Mr Ricardo Londono and Gimax (see other thread). I'm happy with the books - but as someone who looks after their pounds and pennies, I did get it as a combined Christmas and birthday present!
I must admit to having a slightly vested interest in "Time And Two Seats", as the author telephoned me one day to discuss race circuits, although looking at the references it doesn't seem as though he used any of my information! Still, yes it is very expensive, and it is also very detailed - I haven't seen anything else as detailed on Sportscar racing. I mean, I even managed to find Sportscar race information on Mr Ricardo Londono and Gimax (see other thread). I'm happy with the books - but as someone who looks after their pounds and pennies, I did get it as a combined Christmas and birthday present!
#22
Felix Muelas
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 07:46
As for "Time and Two Seats" I have some mixed feelings. On the one hand, yes, it is an extraordinary piece of information, expensive, no doubt, but probably worth it.
On the other, I reckon that I was expecting to find details of races that I could have never heard of, and it isn't the case. Whilst no doubt some things like the huge entry lists of some races might leave some people speechless, I thought, for a moment that some strange and minor non-champ races would be included. Disappointment there.
And there is also the question of the indexes. You will excuse my ignorance, but once one is able to locate a driver on the index, and, for instance, he is recorded as participant in let's say three races (with the first one and the last one being quoted as standard info on the index, thank you very much) how do you find the one in the middle? Browsing through the entry lists? Or am I missing something here?
Because if I am not, then the prospect of making any serious recollection of data for any driver with more than two participations on the races recalled in the books is simply impossible!
Last month, whilst preparing part of an official Why for one of the 8W pictures, I spent an incredible number of hours trying to find the driver on each one of the entry lists for about five years. After that, I gave up, if only because I had been able to find about fifteen relevant results and it took me ages!
So yes, I am able to accept that the contents of the two books is incredible (and interesting) and I know that if Sheldon would have "merged" his F1 records, put some pictures and use decent paper to produce a book it would cost several times what we paid for "Time and Two Seats".
But...(and as a buyer I think I have the right to express this)...I am not convinced I did the right thing buying it.
Plus it doesn't solve any of the two original questions that were the reason behind this thread, i.e. the two wins by Mario Araujo de Cabral that we do not even have a date for...
Felix
On the other, I reckon that I was expecting to find details of races that I could have never heard of, and it isn't the case. Whilst no doubt some things like the huge entry lists of some races might leave some people speechless, I thought, for a moment that some strange and minor non-champ races would be included. Disappointment there.
And there is also the question of the indexes. You will excuse my ignorance, but once one is able to locate a driver on the index, and, for instance, he is recorded as participant in let's say three races (with the first one and the last one being quoted as standard info on the index, thank you very much) how do you find the one in the middle? Browsing through the entry lists? Or am I missing something here?
Because if I am not, then the prospect of making any serious recollection of data for any driver with more than two participations on the races recalled in the books is simply impossible!
Last month, whilst preparing part of an official Why for one of the 8W pictures, I spent an incredible number of hours trying to find the driver on each one of the entry lists for about five years. After that, I gave up, if only because I had been able to find about fifteen relevant results and it took me ages!
So yes, I am able to accept that the contents of the two books is incredible (and interesting) and I know that if Sheldon would have "merged" his F1 records, put some pictures and use decent paper to produce a book it would cost several times what we paid for "Time and Two Seats".
But...(and as a buyer I think I have the right to express this)...I am not convinced I did the right thing buying it.
Plus it doesn't solve any of the two original questions that were the reason behind this thread, i.e. the two wins by Mario Araujo de Cabral that we do not even have a date for...
Felix
#23
Darren Galpin
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Posted 13 October 2000 - 08:12
Felix,
I must admit that the fact that the book only covers Championship events is a drawback, as one of the things I need to find in it and cannot are the non-championship events. Yes, the "Index" is also a problem, but it does give the number of events entered, so it gives you an idea of how often the guy raced. With Gimax for instance, it said that he entered 19 events, and a quick check showed that he only ever entered Italian events. But the lack of more of an index is a serious drag. You are not missing anything Felix - you need to know something about the driver before you can perform an adequate search. One day I will have most of the results on my website, and it will then be machine searchable........
I'm happy with the book, but then I also like it for the track maps which I will sometime get around to searching more fully. I also didn't have to pay postage and packaging.
Cheers,
Darren
I must admit that the fact that the book only covers Championship events is a drawback, as one of the things I need to find in it and cannot are the non-championship events. Yes, the "Index" is also a problem, but it does give the number of events entered, so it gives you an idea of how often the guy raced. With Gimax for instance, it said that he entered 19 events, and a quick check showed that he only ever entered Italian events. But the lack of more of an index is a serious drag. You are not missing anything Felix - you need to know something about the driver before you can perform an adequate search. One day I will have most of the results on my website, and it will then be machine searchable........
I'm happy with the book, but then I also like it for the track maps which I will sometime get around to searching more fully. I also didn't have to pay postage and packaging.
Cheers,
Darren
#24
Felix Muelas
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Posted 14 October 2000 - 19:37
OMG!
Well, I knew someday it will happen...
Age has some wonderful things, and some other a little bit more annoying !
So here I come yesterday, I see that the thread has some new answers and I get right to the very end. I see Darren´s post, I post a reply, and...that´s it!
I mean, I completly overlooked the fact that Tony Kaye HAD FOUND the results for the Guanabara race, and that no other people but the members of the Holy Trilogy have spotted it, and have commented it!
Of course I have no excuse, I assume that I was so pessimistic over the affair that I never expected an answer!
So, better late than never, thanks a lot, Tony. It is much more than what I expected and I will make sure that Adelino includes an acknowledgement in his forthcoming book.
Un abrazo,
Felix Muelas
Well, I knew someday it will happen...
Age has some wonderful things, and some other a little bit more annoying !
So here I come yesterday, I see that the thread has some new answers and I get right to the very end. I see Darren´s post, I post a reply, and...that´s it!
I mean, I completly overlooked the fact that Tony Kaye HAD FOUND the results for the Guanabara race, and that no other people but the members of the Holy Trilogy have spotted it, and have commented it!
Of course I have no excuse, I assume that I was so pessimistic over the affair that I never expected an answer!
So, better late than never, thanks a lot, Tony. It is much more than what I expected and I will make sure that Adelino includes an acknowledgement in his forthcoming book.
Un abrazo,
Felix Muelas
#25
Ray Bell
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Posted 15 October 2000 - 12:15
'Holy Trilogy' Felix? How does that description come about?
#26
Felix Muelas
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Posted 15 October 2000 - 14:00
Ray
My apologies.
Sorry if my description was too subjective, or if for whatever reasons it might have offended someone...it wasn´t intended to be like that.
On the contrary, I had that idea in mind that using those words might show my admiration. A bit twisted maybe. I will refrain a little bit more in the future.
;)
Felix
My apologies.
Sorry if my description was too subjective, or if for whatever reasons it might have offended someone...it wasn´t intended to be like that.
On the contrary, I had that idea in mind that using those words might show my admiration. A bit twisted maybe. I will refrain a little bit more in the future.
;)
Felix
#27
Ray Bell
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Posted 15 October 2000 - 14:50
No problem with that Felix, just wondering why I'm accorded this high honour... even if it's something I would not consider to be so.
#28
Racer.Demon
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Posted 16 October 2000 - 22:36
Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Dear friend,
I think you finally managed to come up with a question that no-one on this Forum (and with that the possible extension to no-one in this world) has the answer to.
Congratulations... ;-)
Thanks to Tony, you can start and serve me my slice of humble pie now ;)
At what heights will this Forum's rise ever stop?
#29
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 October 2000 - 01:11
Everest's, we hope...
