Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

1947/48 Cisitalia 202 Pinin Farina Coupe # 046

Started by vintageautomobilia , Sep 21 2004 21:48

Please log in to reply

27 replies to this topic

#1 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 21 September 2004 - 21:48

Hi,

I am trying to trace the history of my 1947/48 Cisitalia Tipo 202 Pinin Farina coupe chassis # 046.
It was sold by a Mr. Scagliarini of Turin, Italy, in 1965 to a Mr. Rolf Hartmann of Nurnberg, Germany, and licensed with plate # N - AU 202 on 22, June 1965. I wonder if Mr. Hartmann is still alive, and if so, could he be located. I have the German Registration book which shows his address at that time. Perhaps he would remember something about this car.

Later it was sold to William L. Petty, an American service man stationed in Germany, and in April, 1970 it was shipped to the USA. Later, it shows up in John deBoers list as belonging to Everitt Lovelace. About 4 or 5 years ago I traded a 1950 Motto bodied Siata Daina spider to a dealer, Franco Maneti, for the Cisitalia.

I would like to know the history of this car in Germany, but more than that, I want the Italian history. "Scagliarini" is a well known name in Cisitalia and Abarth history and I would like to explore this connection. The original engine (# 082) is missing and I would like to know if it still exists.

Any leads or other information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Back to top

#2 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 22 September 2004 - 14:28

1948 Vercelli Italy
1st OA
G.Scagliarini Cisitalia 202

1948 Mantova Italy
4th OA?
G.Scagliarini Cisitalia 202

1948 Mille Miglia
5th OA
G. Scagliarini-Maffiodo
Cisitalia 202

1949 Targa Florio
29th (DNF) Guido Scagliarini
Cisitalia 202

Seems for most of 1949 and later, both Scagliarinis (father and son) ran the Cisitalia/Abarth 204 or Abarth 205..

Back to top

#3 eukie

Member

247 posts
Joined: November 03

Posted 23 September 2004 - 10:56

My online-telephonebook says there are (at least) two Rolf Hartmanns in Nürnberg today, one living in the Hohenzollernstraße, the other in Mörikestraße.

Back to top

#4 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 23 September 2004 - 20:56

Marco,

Thank you for checking. In 1965-67, this Rolf Hartmann lived at Schnieglingesstr. 264 in Nurnberg, according to the Kraftfahezeugbrief I have. Of course, either of the two that are listed could be the same man that imported my Cisitalia from Italy to Germany. I wrote to the address above but the letter was returned.

Back to top

#5 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 15 October 2004 - 20:17

Marco,

Would it be possible for you to email me the addresses of the two Rolf Hartmann listings in Nurnberg?
Although Hartmann is not an unusual name in Germany, I would like to write to them on the chance that one of them might know something about my Cisitalia. After all, it's just the cost of a postage stamp, and "nothing ventured, nothing gained"!

email: vintageautomobilia@thegrid.net

Thanks!

Back to top

#6 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 26 December 2005 - 23:34

Hi,

I thought I would bring this up again in the hope it might result in further information about this car. Thanks

Peter

Back to top

#7 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 27 December 2005 - 01:28

Hi Peter! Happy Holidays from Salt Lake.

I haven't found anything further on the Cisitalia coupe.

What did Franco do with the Motto Diana?

How is the "Goldmanini" progressing?

Back to top

#8 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 28 December 2005 - 00:21

Hello, and Happy Holidays to you Stu!

I keep hoping that someone will know about the history of #046. Oh well, it's a "work of art" so I think I'll keep it even if I don't know its pedigree. Sort of like my dog and my cats -- I don't know their pedigrees either, but I still love them!

The Motto-Cisitalia spider corsa (barchetta) is as it has been. I did find and purchase the correct Jaeger chronometric contagiri (rev counter) for it. Tony Krivanek saw it listed on eBay Italy (thanks Tony!!) and I was able to buy it after much travail. But it is EXACTLY the correct rev counter! I also got brand new correct motor mounts out of Italy. Now I need to find the correct top cover with shift lever for the gearbox. That's turning out to be more difficult than I thought, as my gearbox has a two-piece top cover (I need the smaller, upper part) and most I'm offered are the one-piece cover. I keep looking...

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE ELSE ALSO! MAY YOUR NEW YEAR BE FANTASTIC!!

Back to top

#9 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 28 December 2005 - 01:24

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia
Hello, and Happy Holidays to you Stu!

I keep hoping that someone will know about the history of #046. Oh well, it's a "work of art" so I think I'll keep it even if I don't know its pedigree. Sort of like my dog and my cats -- I don't know their pedigrees either, but I still love them!

The Motto-Cisitalia spider corsa (barchetta) is as it has been. I did find and purchase the correct Jaeger chronometric contagiri (rev counter) for it. Tony Krivanek saw it listed on eBay Italy (thanks Tony!!) and I was able to buy it after much travail. But it is EXACTLY the correct rev counter! I also got brand new correct motor mounts out of Italy. Now I need to find the correct top cover with shift lever for the gearbox. That's turning out to be more difficult than I thought, as my gearbox has a two-piece top cover (I need the smaller, upper part) and most I'm offered are the one-piece cover. I keep looking...

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE ELSE ALSO! MAY YOUR NEW YEAR BE FANTASTIC!!

Exactly what did the gearbox come out of, an 1100S or a pre-war car? I don't think I've ever actually seen a box with a two-part top cover...

Back to top

#10 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 30 December 2005 - 22:00

That's the problem. I don't know exactly what this gearbox is. It looks like a late prewar or early postwar floor shift gearbox from a Fiat 1100 or Simca 8 with a long tailshaft housing, and a two-piece top cover. It has special gear ratios and they are stamped on the side of the gearbox. You can see a picture at:

http://img492.images...ttotrans6qa.jpg

at least I hope you can!

Can anyone out there help me find the gearbox cover and shift lever that I need?

Back to top

#11 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 30 December 2005 - 22:19

Why don't you try sending a photo of the gearbox to Righini, the guy with the big collection who alos has the Auto Avio 815. I have no idea where the gearbox is from, but he might, as he has and knows pre-war FIATs well...

Best,
Stu

Back to top

#12 antonvrs

Member

500 posts
Joined: October 02

Posted 30 December 2005 - 22:55

Peter, what materiel is the case and top cover cast in? Iron? Aluminium? Magnesium?
TK

Back to top

#13 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 05 January 2006 - 21:01

Stu,

I don't have an email address (or any address) for Righini. I've heard his name of course, but I don't know him at all.

Tony,

The case and bellhousing are one piece. They and the two top cover pieces appear to be cast aluminum, as does the tailshaft housing. Although, the bellhousing and gearbox case metal is of a different color (it's lighter) than the top covers and the tailshaft housing -- so the case and bellhousing could be magnesium. Here's a link to a photo from the side which shows the entire gearbox:

http://img281.images...totrans18zd.jpg

Peter

Back to top

#14 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 05 January 2006 - 21:30

I clicked on that last image I listed but it didn't come up. Let's try it again

http://img252.images...totrans18ea.jpg

Back to top

#15 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 05 January 2006 - 22:04

Here is the link to Righini's web site..

http://www.righinimario.it/

and the e-mail:

info@righinimario.it

He has an OM gearbox for sale on the sight, so he might know where your gearbox came from. I would suggest you e-mail him the photos of the gearbox....

Stu

Back to top

#16 antonvrs

Member

500 posts
Joined: October 02

Posted 06 January 2006 - 04:56

Peter-
IIRC, the gearbox in the OSCA 750 that I worked on some years ago(751) for Don Whatshisname looked just like that one and just looking at the pic I would guess that the case is aluminium and the top cover is magnesium. Magnesium is generally darker in color than aluminium.
The OSCA had an aluminium case with close ratio gears based on an early 1100/508C box with a mag cover and remote shifter. Unfortunately, I don't have any photos of any of the mechanicals of that car.

Hmmm. I just looked in the Orsini-Zagari OSCA book and the few gearbox pics show a very different bell housing and shift arrangement. Never mind.
After further study of my early Fiat parts books I would say that the main case is 1100B. However, the 1100B has a long central lever and a short tailshaft housing with the typical external contracting parking brake system.
According to Balestra's Cisitalia book the 202 gearbox "was taken directly from the Fiat 1100".

Best regards,
Anton

Back to top

#17 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 06 January 2006 - 16:47

Could it possably be special casting by Giusti's Casa 'dell Auto? It's my understanding that they made a 5 speed version of a Topolino gearbox!!?? Never seen one or a photo though...

Back to top

#18 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 06 January 2006 - 21:58

Thanks Tony and Stu for your input.

The gearbox itself does look to be Fiat 1100 A, B, or C, and the normal configuration for these would be a one piece gearbox top cover with a long central shift lever, and short tail shaft housing with parking brake mechanism as you describe Tony. I have one of these gearboxes from a 1939 Fiat 1100 that I'll probably use in my Cisitalia 202 coupe #046. However, the gearbox for my Motto-Cisitalia spider differs from this in that it has that two piece top cover, where the upper cover incorporates the shift lever and bolts to the lower cover, and that long tail shaft housing with no parking brake mechanism. (Tony, you're right of course, magnesium is normally darker in color than aluminum -- I'm getting old!)

Stu, I'll email Righini with some photos and see what he has to say. With my luck, this gearbox with it's special ratios, two piece top cover, and long tailshaft housing will turn out to be the creation of somebody like Abarth, Volpini, Stanguellini, or such -- for a specific application. Italian speed equipment for a Fiat 1100 -- although the long tail shaft housing is similar to Simca 9 Sport.
In fact the whole gearbox is similar to a Simca Sport, but the Simca Sport was an outgrowth of the Fiat 1100 anyway.

I'll keep looking and maybe somebody, somewhere will know what this is and how I can find the pieces I need.

Back to top

#19 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 07 January 2006 - 01:57

I don't remember how you got the gearbox. Was it there and hooked up the the Mercedes 190 motor?

Back to top

#20 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 07 January 2006 - 22:38

No, the Mercedes 190SL motor had its original Mercedes gearbox. Luckily, this Mercedes combination never was operational in the Motto-Cisitalia spider. The motor mounts and trans mount were fabricated and the Mercedes motor & gearbox installed in the car sometime in the mid 1960's, but thank the gods the installation was never completed. I bought the Motto-Cisitalia in 1973 and immediately removed and sold all the Mercedes "junk". The 1100 motor and gearbox I have are the original units that I located several years later after a very long search.

By the way, the Mercedes motor and transmission that ended up in the Motto-Cisitalia came out of a 190SL when Tom Payne of Ypsilanti, Michigan put in a small block Chevy. Tom Payne was a racer and operated a sports car dealership in Ypsilanti. In fact about that same time, I bought a Porsche 550 - 1500RS Spyder from him for $1,495. That 550 Spyder was a very nice car and would have scored 88 to 92 points at any concours - and it came with spare parts and a trailer. Those were the days!

Back to top

#21 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 08 January 2006 - 20:22

Now I want to hear where the proper motor and gearbox was found

Back to top

#22 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 30 June 2006 - 22:06

I finally purchased a stock one piece top cover and shift lever from a Fiat 1100B gearbox, for my 1948/49 Motto-Cisitalia spider corsa. I was growing older by the minute waiting to find the upper part of my special two-piece cover. I want to get this very beautiful little barchetta finished and running! (Now watch, the correct two-piece top cover will finally appear.)

Now all I need is a little fabrication work and a few small pieces. The light at the end of the tunnel better not be a freight train!

This car was probably a deep maroon color originally, then it was painted red, and when it arrived in America it was painted white. It still has the original bucket seats which are medium-dark blue with orangey-red piping. I don't want another red Italian car so I'm thinking of painting it French Racing Blue (sky blue). The Ferrari 500TR coupe by Pinin Farina is that color blue and it looks great. But also, the dark red/maroon would look nice.

Peter

Back to top

#23 D-Type

Member

9,705 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 30 June 2006 - 23:11

Only Bugattis, Delages, Delahayes, Gordinis and Talbots like to be painted light blue. A Cisitalia would not feel comfortable in light blue. I'm sure it would be happier to be painted maroon and would repay you by behaving itself. Why not ask it?

Back to top

#24 dretceterini

Member

2,991 posts
Joined: May 02

Posted 01 July 2006 - 03:44

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia
I finally purchased a stock one piece top cover and shift lever from a Fiat 1100B gearbox, for my 1948/49 Motto-Cisitalia spider corsa. I was growing older by the minute waiting to find the upper part of my special two-piece cover. I want to get this very beautiful little barchetta finished and running! (Now watch, the correct two-piece top cover will finally appear.)

Now all I need is a little fabrication work and a few small pieces. The light at the end of the tunnel better not be a freight train!

This car was probably a deep maroon color originally, then it was painted red, and when it arrived in America it was painted white. It still has the original bucket seats which are medium-dark blue with orangey-red piping. I don't want another red Italian car so I'm thinking of painting it French Racing Blue (sky blue). The Ferrari 500TR coupe by Pinin Farina is that color blue and it looks great. But also, the dark red/maroon would look nice.

Peter

I would paint it to match the piping on the seats, assuming that is the original material.

Back to top

#25 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 15 July 2006 - 22:52

Yes, my seats are still covered in the original material, and they are like new. Remember, this car has been driven less than 75 miles in the last 52 years! But the orangey red color on the piping would look awful on the car.

Back to top

#26 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 28 September 2006 - 00:23

Does anyone know if any of the Cisitalia company records still exist? Especially records for the Tipo 202, indicating each chassis number's production date and first owner? If so, who might have access to this information? I have attempted to contact Nino Balestra several times recently, but so far have received no reply.

Back to top

#27 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 08 October 2006 - 20:08

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia
Does anyone know if any of the Cisitalia company records still exist? Especially records for the Tipo 202, indicating each chassis number's production date and first owner? If so, who might have access to this information? I have attempted to contact Nino Balestra several times recently, but so far have received no reply.

I know in Great Britain it is sometimes possible to access old automobile registration records for different areas, and to thereby trace the ownership history of a particular car. Does anyone know if this is possible in other countries, specifically Italy and Germany (post war of course)? Also, is it possible to turn this process around and search the records by owners names and make of car?

Back to top

#28 vintageautomobilia

Member

231 posts
Joined: September 04

Posted 06 November 2006 - 23:58

Does anyone know someone in Turin, Italy that would have the time, and be willing to search the automobile registration records for 1947 and 1948, to see if there is any record of my Cisitalia 202 Pinin Farina coupe, chassis number 046?

Any other ideas would be gratefully appreciated.