Lister sports-racing cars in the USA

Well, I could have made the post longer to mention that the Hangsen VPP9 was a replacement for the crashed Scott-Brown VPP9, but had already said that earlier, and presumed I didn't need to repeat it

The page 187 you mention is full of words like "possibiity" - again as I mentioned earlier

Having seen the Lister prior to John Mays restoration all I can say is that it WAS NOT matt black

BHL119.
Well, I`ve seen some fanciful claims for Lister histories but this one takes the biscuit.

David, you forgot to mention that Doug also states in his book, he completely accepts the car as being a perfectly genuine car. That should be worth mentioning! I spoke with Paul Skilleter before I bought the car and he has no question whatsoever that it is genuine and I trust his judgement. He has known the car personally for 40 years. Paul has many photos of this car is his book including one of him pushing the car in the paddock 38 years ago.

These cars went through a period in their life that they were just an old race car and worth very little. As Doug stated before, sometimes identities were altered for tax reasons or other reasons and when they have no real value, usually nobody documented what happened… nobody really cared. This is not limited to Listers, but other marques as well. This does not mean they are no longer the car they were when they left the factory. Sometimes the history is not as black & white as some people demand. This is just reality.

John May told me it was matt black but that was 40 years ago, maybe he made a mistake…People make mistakes. We should not read more into it than that! I mentioned the color because that's what I was told and thought it would help someone remember if they saw it in the US in the 60s, there weren't many out there. Ted, I know you have many photos of the car during its early days including when at Johns shop. I have asked to purchase whatever you have and look forward to seeing them.

I am sure I could have Brian Lister put his hand on a stack of bibles and swear that he remembers building this car and here is the full story…. and even so, there would be some people that would prefer to argue that it is not true. My original post was simply asking if anyone had any period photos or historical information on this car. I was just doing research, as anyone should do with a car they own. I had hoped to generate positive, constructive feedback with information, but seems like all I get are comments from people looking for a good argument. Is it not possible to use this website for the good of gathering historical information for these important cars without wasting all this time & frustration in a never ending debate?? Is this website set up to be constructive and for the good of the historical car world, or is it for the purpose of those that wish to create controversy for their own entertainment?

Edited by terryokv2, 07 February 2011 - 14:40.

I haven't seen anyone questioning on this thread, or anywhere else, that VPP9 (probably c/no BHL3) was the replacement works car raced by inter alia Walt Hansgen at the 1958 British Grand Prix meeting. So we don't need photos in Paul Skilleter's book, or a sworn affidavit from Brian Lister to that effect

Nor does it matter that Doug Nye says BHL119 is a "perfectly genuine" car

You neglect to say that DCN also says, of the Hansgen (etc) VPP9 "perhaps exported..as 119, perhaps not!"

So what we need a stack of bibles for is to connect the two

This forum is very constructive and is a source of excellent information on many car histories. It is not a vehicle to make fanciful
claims and then throw the toys out of the pram if you don`t get your own way. Post some EVIDENCE of your claim and I have no
doubt it will be discussed rationally.

David, You really need to read the entire story (on page 187) as I explained earlier. Doug Nye goes into detail and I agree with what he states. You are making short comments that do not cover the entire truth and give the wrong impression. The original BHL 3 VPP9 was destroyed and scrapped when Archie was killed. This was NOT the Hansgen car. The registration number VPP9 was transfered to another car which is what Walt raced. Paul Skilleter knows this car well and certain it is genuine but still researching its early history regarding the identity question. The histories of some of these cars can be extremelty difficult, maybe impossible, to document to the satisfaction of some people like yourself, but that is OK.

Steady on Terry - when you you make extensive play of what I have written - as if I'm an authority on these hunks of junk rather than just someone who has been interested in them since I was a kid - please do NOT over-egg the pudding. I recall what has come down to us as 'BHL 119' very well from its period as a restored look-alike 'MVE 303' here in British historic racing of the 1970s. It appeared, I think, as the front cover car on an early issue of 'Thoroughbred and Classic Cars' magazine, the photo probably taken by Paul Skilleter. It is very important that those who recall the car as initially retrieved from the US in 1970 bore NO features to identify it at that time as having once been a works car. Such features were worked into the car once it became an 'MVE 303' look-alike. I am still happy that it began life as a perfectly genuine but (subsequently) misidentified in-period car...and as I wrote It could well have begun life as the third 1958 works car. But that is absolutely as far as it goes. It could equally - since it apparently returned from the US with no distinctive works car features - have gone there around 1960 as an unused frame, body panels, bits and pieces - to have been completed and raced somewhers, some when, by someone as yet unidentified amongst the numerous Lister runners on record. There is another process of elimination, therefore, to be applied to all known Lister US - and Canadian - racing entities through the 1960s.

It's a huge leap from "could well have begun life" to your car being "the only possible choice" to be the Hansgen works car from 1958. We don't really know yet if all contemporary Listers which have survived have yet re-emerged into the light of day. And the jiggery-pokery involving the swopping around and revionist identification of Lister bits - including basic chassis - has continued to this day. This place is one in which everything is subjected to peer review - as I know to my occasional embarrassment - and even if the reaction might offend some sensibilities, don't knock it.

DCN

As a reminder this is my original post:
Does anyone have any knowledge of the history of BHL 119 while in the US? It sold to the US in approximately 1960 and returned to the UK in 1970. It was then restored by John May who said it had an SCCA badge on the dash and was mat black in color. From 1970 on it was heavily raced in the UK and well known by Paul Skilleter and others. I own the car and researching its history. I would appreciate any information or photos during any period of the cars life. thanks.



You seem to have forgotten what my original post & question was. When asked detailed questions by you guys, I answered the best I could and mentioned the theory that Doug Nye had in his book and that I agreed with what he stated. I made no big “fanciful claims” as you so falsely state. I stated what I had learned, what Paul Skilleter said, what was printed and that I was looking for more historical information.

You guys just wanted to argue and trash the car and myself. You proved my point in my last post…. Thank you. Which is…. You enjoy conflict and argument. There can be nothing productive from trying to communicate with someone like you.

Bye

Doug, Just saw your post. I had no intentions of overstating anything. If it seemed like I was overstated my opinion, I did not mean to. There have been a couple others on this thread doing a lot of overstating their opinion. Your quote that I said my car was the "only possible choice" for this history is not exactly right. I said "when you look at the individual history of each car, it APPEARS there is no other car that could have that history and FROM WHAT I COULD TELL, there were no other cars out there claiming that history". Saying "appears" and "is" are 2 different things. Again if that is overstating my opinion, It was not intended. I am just pointing out the fact that I have looked at all the others and could not find any that fit with this history. I see a lot of strong opinions posted, not sure why I can't express my opinion. My original post (copied above) just said I was trying to research its history, and they asked questions. I was trying to answer their questions, state the theory and explain the reasoning. I was simply looking to do more research on the car. I would like to find out as much as I can about the cars history. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited by terryokv2, 07 February 2011 - 22:34.

You guys just wanted to argue and trash the car and myself. You enjoy conflict and argument. There can be nothing productive from trying to communicate with someone like you.

I think this IS quite wrong. There is perhaps a difference in sensitivities between outspoken Brits (and an honorary Brit) and America.

DCN

Welcome Mr Larson,

I'm sure you will be most helpful with the knowledge you have of curtain Jaguars etc.
Perhaps it would be more helpful if you could Give more information regarding the races BHL 119 was in. west/east coast ? perhaps the mid west ? Drivers/owners ?

Good luck with your quest for Information.

Horizon
BHL 121 ;)

Is this the time to say I drove BHL108 at Laguna Seca?

Only if Laguna Seca is in ENGLAND, and the car was painted flat black!

ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 08 February 2011 - 22:37.

Nah!!
I raced against the flat black Lister Chev as mentioned earlier-I finally found some results from that race and the driver was Kirk Axtell of LA. That was the ex Windridge car I believe.

I drove BHL108 at Laguna Seca in 1981 when Mike Blackie owned it. We had become friends when he and his wife Barbara came to Westwood to race. Unfortunately, I drove it in the almost empty paddock But I did get it into third gear and frightened the life out of some people!

I raced against the flat black Lister Chev as mentioned earlier-I finally found some results from that race and the driver was Kirk Axtell of LA. That was the ex Windridge car I believe.

If you mean the matte black Kelso Auto Dynamics Lister-Chev, I believe that it went from Kelso to Ed Lowther c1961-62. I know it was still with Kelso in mid 1961, and that Lowther was driving it from early 1962. So that may tend to leave it out as the ex-Windridge (Kelso) car.
Tom

Nineteen Eighty One Tom. I am still a young man...

And by 1979 the Kelso car was in Calfornia, owned by Bill Harlan

Nineteen Eighty One Tom. I am still a young man...

oops, I did not catch the year in your post. For some reason I read it as 1961. My error, apologies, and I am glad to knock some years off your age!

Tom

Didn't George Constantine win the one and only Vanderbilt cup race run in the parking lot of Roosevelt Raceway (trotters) in a Lister something?

Didn't George Constantine win the one and only Vanderbilt cup race run in the parking lot of Roosevelt Raceway (trotters) in a Lister something?

No. The attempted revival of the Vanderbilt Cup, which did take place at Roosevelt Raceway as you say, was in 1960. The feature, for the Vanderbilt Cup, was a Formula Junior race won by Harry Carter in a Stanguellini. The attendant sports racing SCCA Regional event was won by Walt Hansgen in a Maserati T-61. Constantine was in the race in the Kelso Lister-Chev, but as far as I can tell did not finish. Hansgen led all the way.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 11 February 2011 - 16:46.

OK, thanks, I'll buy that.

Lister Jaguar carrying BHL 119.
First imported to UK with no chassis number by Chris Renwick approx 1970.
Chris applied for and got the old MVE 303 logbook which carried the chassis number 2/19.
Anthony Hutton bought the car and had a restoration carried out by John May.
The car then went to Forward Engineering and was race developed and run by John Harper and Anthony Hutton.
This went on for some years and then the car was sold to Philippe Renault.
After Renault sold the car another claimant of the identity had appeared and because that seemed to have a better claim
the first car claimed BHL 119 purely because it sounded nearest and no one else was claiming it.
It was largely wishful thinking that attributed a works history to this car as it had no particular works features although it was
undoubtedly a genuine car. Incidentally it was not black when it was imported.
Any claim that this was any form of works car is pure fantasy.

===========================================================
When I sold it to Chris, via Dan Margulies, it was flat black and regularly street driven, including on a midnight run from L.A. to Carmel because unwise me HAD to see my Girlfriend! She had moved to Carmel. I wrote a song about it on www.yangna.org/ in 1969. I have a street video, from 8mm, taken in 1968 when it was still in Airway Motors colors. I'd received it as a pile of parts and gave it a Silverlake shakedown. As I say often, I was not a clever lad at the time. There are stills of it in flat black in "Photos" at www.pvbms.com/. I am so pleased that the British owners brought it back to it's deserved glory. It was a wonderful street car.

Edited by OpLock, 28 March 2011 - 18:09.

Dont think we are talking about the same Lister.Renwick imported 3 or 4 cars from the States.

I have a piece from an 1981 magazine JM 3-4 where a Howard E. Turner of Atlanta Georgia notes he owned a 1959 Lister Jaguar that he had purchased in 1979.
He was chasing general information on Listers.
Which car did he have presumably a Costin bodied car?
terry

Edited by terry mcgrath, 26 April 2011 - 04:27.

No, a knobbly
...and probably with a not very long history ;)

I have a piece from an 1981 magazine JM 3-4 where a Howard E. Turner of Atlanta Georgia notes he owned a 1959 Lister Jaguar that he had purchased in 1979.
He was chasing general information on Listers.
Which car did he have presumably a Costin bodied car?
terry

Terry,

I happen to have a copy of the Jaguar Marque from Fall 1979 sitting on my desk. There are pictures of Turner's Lister, and his story of racing the car at Road Atlanta (in a vintage race). In one picture Jim Southard's Lister-Chevy is in the foreground, racing at the same event.

The same issue has a story on the Walter Mitty from that year. The story mentions only the author's experience at the event, but there are some photos and a table of results (my Ferrari 206 SP had the fastest time). Turner is shown only as a "DNF," but I remember quite well how badly he crunched both the nose and tail of the Lister. As I recall it was some time, possibly two years, before the car was restored. Turner doesn't mention where he obtained the car, the chassis number, nor when (or to whom) he sold it.

David Seibert

Reading these posts on Listers in the US, I was reminded of something that happened in late 1969 or early 1970. I saw an ad in the local Costa Mesa, CA, paper for a Lister-Jaguar. I made an aapointment to see the car but didn't get there until early evening. In a very dimly-lit garage I found a bare rolling chassis partially covered with a tarp. There was a Jaguar engine and gearbox sitting nearby. When I asked the seller about the bodywork, he produced a black-and-white photograph that showed clearly a Lister that had been the vitcim of a roll-over. The body color in the photo was dark, maybe a black, a blue or a green. I don't recall any distinguishing features, such as a number or lettering on the car. I don't recall that he said where the accident had happened. He took me outside to show me a Kellison coupe body he planned to use for the car. Although my knowledge, or lack therof, about Listers wouldn't have allowed me to verify that the rolling chassis was genuine, the fact that it was sitting on those Dunlop disk knockoff wheels was good enough for me. After ruminating about it for a couple of days, I called him to say the project was far beyond what I wanted to tackle. The ad never appeared in the paper again, so I have no idea of what happened to the car. Does such a car ring any bells?

Do any of our American TNFers have particular recollections of such US 1958-1961 Lister-Jaguar and Lister-Chevrolet drivers as:

Pete Harrison
Art Huttinger
Gerry Georgi
Howard Quick
Bud Gates
Bob Colombosian
Chuck Howard
George Constantine
Fred Windridge
Bill Pollack
Ronnie Hissom...

...and of any other Lister pedallers that might be recalled, less the obvious stars, Walt Hansgen, Ed Crawford and Jim Hall...????

DCN

This is a photo of, I believe, George Constantine and his Kelso Lister-Chevrolet at 1960 Vanderbilt Cup meeting, Roosevelt Field, Long Island

This is a photo of, I believe, George Constantine and his Kelso Lister-Chevrolet at 1960 Vanderbilt Cup meeting, Roosevelt Field, Long Island

I think this is the Howard Quick Lister at corner 5 at Road America. Tom can verify. Ron N. www.classicvintagemotorsports.com


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I think this is the Howard Quick Lister at corner 5 at Road America. Tom can verify. Ron N. www.classicvintagemotorsports.com


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Correct.
Tom

That is a v. nice picture. From this angle it certainly looks 'Knobbly' doesn't it.

DCN

That is a v. nice picture. From this angle it certainly looks 'Knobbly' doesn't it.

DCN

Question about the front fender shapes on the Knobbly body Listers, on the above pic of BHL 112 the front fenders are kinda round and follow the front tire, and on others such as the car pictured in post #116 it angles back from top of fender to the cowl.
was this an early / late car diff. or was it mag. body / alum. body diff., I know bhl112 was a mag. body car and has roundy front fenders.
I have seen old pics of the early sn# Cunningham cars and they look to have run both types fronts at diff. times.

Edited by TEDD, 01 May 2011 - 08:41.

Ecurie Ecosse eased the roundness of the rear part of the front wing of their car(s)

I don't know if the car in post 116 is ex-Ecosse, or a copy of the body style

The standard factory shape was closer to the car in the latest posting

Question about the front fender shapes on the Knobbly body Listers, on the above pic of BHL 112 the front fenders are kinda round and follow the front tire, and on others such as the car pictured in post #116 it angles back from top of fender to the cowl.
was this an early / late car diff. or was it mag. body / alum. body diff., I know bhl112 was a mag. body car and has roundy front fenders.
I have seen old pics of the early sn# Cunningham cars and they look to have run both types fronts at diff. times.

Here are two shots of the Cunningham Listers a Road America. I think this was 1959. Ron


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Ron, it was the 1958 Road America June Sprints. Hansgen first, Crawford second.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 02 May 2011 - 14:12.

I found this add in R&T sept 63

Lister corvette costin body, 8 mag wheels, 327cu in fuel injected, slightly modified ex Briggs Cunningham
John Synder silver spring MD
R&T 9-1963

Ward Delano's Lister Costin around 1966

This car had a modified 327 Chevy engine in it.
Ward Delano and Al Allin of the Grand Rapids, Michigan area in 1966 went to pick up this Lister from the previous owner who lived in Oregon. A 1963 Fuel injected Corvette was part of the trade for this car. Note the previous owned cut the tail off ala Cobra Daytona Coupe, Kamm effect. He still had the original tail piece and asked them if they wanted it. They didn't. This car had a Corvette 4 speed T-10 gearbox and Chevy engine with 6 Stromberg 97 Carbs.

The car was sold around 1967 or 1968 to Mike Verana of Grand Rapids, Michigan and it was Dark Blue in color.

photos: Bill Wiswedel collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 10 August 2011 - 21:23.

Fantastic Jerry!

DCN

Ward Delano's Lister Costin in front of his garage
Glad you enjoyed the pictures Doug.


photo: Bill Wiswedel collection

Very interesting! I believe this must be BHL 124. This car was raced by Tom Carstens, Lew Florence, Bill Stephens, Stan Bennett (1964), and Bob Erickson (1965). Both Bennett and Erickson are from Portland. I believe when Erickson had it (and maybe Bennett), the tail was cut off. This may have been a result of Stephens crashing in the 1963 Kent USRRC. More info at posts 17 (mentions the 6 carbs), 31, and 34 on this page:

http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0

Some results here:

http://www.racingspo...lts/BHL124.html

Last I heard, Rob Walton owns this car, although I haven't seen it out for a few years.

Vince H.

I think you will find that it is now with Larry Bowman

Doug and Red Socks and Vince:
If you notice this car has a hole cut out in the nose to let the radiator exhaust out. I believe this would have also helped with front end lift at speed. A very good idea for the day. This was done by the guys in Oregon.

These were beautiful looking cars. This particular one was fairly worn out by the time Ward Delano got it and the engine was basically a stock 327 Corvette power plant. The six carburators were a bit much for the stock engine. When Ward ran it he felt disconnecting 2 of the 6 carburators made the engine more responsive.

I think you will find that it is now with Larry Bowman

Here is a link to Larry Bowman's knobbly Lister BHL 108 at Monterey last year (ouch!) Is that the one you were thinking of? And the next photo shows how the Scarab ended up! That was scarey!

http://photos.bobhea...971039879_F3GHa

Vince H.

And the next photo shows how the Scarab ended up!

Fortunately the Collier Museum is restoring the Scarab to be good as new. The crashed car luckily was running with a replica frame; the original frame was hanging on a wall at the Museum. The restoration is with the original frame and other parts that had been replaced for racing, so the 'fixed' car will be more original that the version that the Collier Museum has been racing for the past ten years. The restored car will not be raced, just displayed, which I think is a wise decision. As Augie Pabst has retired his Scarab from competition, that leaves just the car of Rob Walton as the only real front engine Scarab sports racer that still occasionally sees the track.
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 12 August 2011 - 15:03.

My photo of the Hal Keck Lister at Thompson Raceway, 1963.

 

http://www.flickr.co.../116104369@N03/

Doug:

 

The Cunningham Listers are described in detail in Richard Harman's new Cunningham book. If you need any info, I can look it up for you.

 

Frank

BHL-102. the second of two Briggs Cunningham 1958 Listers, is now owned by Colin Comer of Milwaukee.

Willem Oosthoek was wondering if anybody ever established the chassis number of the knobbly that went to Ronnie Hissom?

Robert Edwards is currently attempting to sort out the Lister Register on behalf of the new brand-owner.  When I attempted a similar project out of the goodness of my simple heart, I concluded that one of the Ed Cantrell cars appears to have survived as 'BHL 17' while what we believed to have been the Hissom car has survived with 'BHL 18' stamped into its frame.  Neither seem legitimate serials since they 'should' have applied to Lister-Bristol style 'kite-shaped' chassis frames - '117' or '118' being the subsequent style normally applied to the Jaguar/Chevrolet 'Knobbly' and 'Costin' bodied vehicles.  Given the practicalities and practises of Customs paperwork-cum-duty avoidance in period anything is possible.  In period it was never mind the words, just enjoy the music, and "Ahem, I am sure between gentlemen we understand one another perfectly".  Computerised data search capability has taken so much of the creative fun out of motor sporting custom.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 06 February 2014 - 00:26.

Doug and Red Socks and Vince:
If you notice this car has a hole cut out in the nose to let the radiator exhaust out. I believe this would have also helped with front end lift at speed. A very good idea for the day. This was done by the guys in Oregon.

These were beautiful looking cars. This particular one was fairly worn out by the time Ward Delano got it and the engine was basically a stock 327 Corvette power plant. The six carburators were a bit much for the stock engine. When Ward ran it he felt disconnecting 2 of the 6 carburators made the engine more responsive.

I suspect it was overjetted.Too rich. Disconnecting 2 carbs should have leaned out a couple of cylinders quite a lot.To the point of detonation. 97s only flow about 140cfm. And are surprisingly efficient for their age.

Utica NY Observer-Dispatch, Monday 24 Oct, 1960

Pacific G.P. - Laguna Seca, CA, two heats

George Constantine, Sturbridge, MA, 3rd heat one, in Kelso Lister Chevrolet.

(Race won by Stirling Moss, Lotus Mk XIX Monte Carlo.)

 

Utica NY Observer 1962, undated

WINS FEATURE

Lime Rock, Conn. (AP)

Richard Stolz of Lake Katrine,

N.Y., driving a Lister Jaguar,

won the feature race at Lime

Rock Park yesterday with an

average time of 31.02 sec-

onds per mile and a half lap.

 

Niagara Falls, NY, Gazette, 1962

Richard Stolz Wins Car Race 

Lime Rock, Conn. (AP)-

Richard Stolz of Lake Kat-

rine, N.Y., driving a Lister

Jaguar, won the feature race

at Lime Rock Park Satur-

day with an average time of

31.02 seconds per mile and

a half lap.

Second in the 27 lap event

was another Lister Jaguar pi-

loted by Don Adams of Weat-

oge, Conn. Edward Depa-

Squale was third in a Lister

Buick.

Saturday's six races spon-

sored by the New Jersey re-

gion of the Sports Car Club

of America, drew 160 entries

and a crowd of 5,000.

END

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 07 February 2014 - 13:59.