Save Monza!

The Monza circuit in Italy is closed. The present situation is that 'environmental' protestors have forced the circuit to only have three events this year, but the reality is that a limited closure will mean permanent closure of this historic venue. The protestors are not, apparently, the traditional group who objected to trees being cut down in the park, but a small group of recently arrived residents nearby who don't like the noise. They have arrived in the area where they knew there was a circuit, and much like Goodwood, want it closed. This is the situation as I am aware from a visit a week ago.

There is a petition to sign if you wish to object.


http://www.petitiono...4/petition.html


(That is the number 0 not letter o in the m0nz4 section)

Ed McDonough

When this disaster started one of the best quotes came from a motorcycle site


"racing too loud for Italians? welcome to hell everyone"

Originally posted by edmcd

The protestors are not, apparently, the traditional group who objected to trees being cut down in the park, but a small group of recently arrived residents nearby who don't like the noise

Rumors say that those protestors (three (3) (III) households - sic!- ) don't live near the circuit anymore !!! Thus giving a certain degree of credibility to another rumor, according to which behind the protest lies a huge edification plan (read: speculation in property development) that requires both the the racing track and the surrounding park to be wiped out. Guess who seems to be involved in this disaster (hint: someone related to someone else who's placed very high in the ranking - we hope not for long - here in Italy. No, it's not the Pope!)

If noise emissions from racing cars are truthfully the only issue here that is causing the closure of the circuit and the ending of all testing and racing , then personally I think the fitting of Silencers , (mufflers is probably a more accurate word because they only suppress and lower the noise level ) and/or the compulsory fitting of substantially sized exhaust catalysts which have a very similar noise reduction effect is a price very well worth paying.

Which of us here, who for years have attended meetings in whatever capacity, can say their hearing now has not been damaged by the noise from racing engines ?

If you sit in the grandstand on the start line at Le Mans even today every car that passes physically hurts your ears .

On the main A20 road in the village of West Kingsdown a couple of miles from the Brands Hatch circuit when unsilenced F1 cars ran , the noise levels in all honesty were appallingly high ,I often wondered how long it would be tolerated.

So fit the silencers and keep the tracks going.

I have signed, the more the better. Since this a continuing issues signatures on hand can be used to hopefully used not only in this situation, but for future. Assume nothing, and never get complacent please!

And this news broke some time before some members of the BRDC apparently decided that building houses on Silverstone was a good idea.

Can someone point to a source that confirms and/or explains this situation? All I recall is a court case last year where the magistrate made rude comments about motor-sport in general. Did he make some order agianst Monza or what?

Well, I have signed.

I don't get it. I mean, is there really that much noise? I am sure that the autostrada is noisier. I mean, does anyone think cars ripping along at 150 km/h are quiet? At least when I drove on A1 last year no one was going anywhere near the 110 km/h limit and the little Seat Ibiza I was in was screaming

Sure, F1 cars make a good deal more noise than others... but this is nuts.

I don't like the general intolerance of things that is spreading in this world of ours. The quote Ross Stonefeld cited is spot on.

BRG, you may have picked up on this already, but here

Ah, thanks - now it is on this site, we have some certainty!

I note rhp96's comment about intolerance but we should remember that this sort of complaint is hardly anything new. I happened to be leafing through a book the other day in my local library about the Locke-King family (promoters of Brooklands) and was reminded that there were two major court cases in the 1920s and 30s about the noise caused by racing at Brooklands - leading of course to the famous Brooklands silencers. And the Weybridge and Byfleet area in those days was far less densely populated than Monza.

Originally posted by BRG
Ah, thanks - now it is on this site, we have some certainty!

Looks like you missed all previous reports (Look in the RELATED STORIES box on the right of that last story):

RELATED STORIES

F3000 to start season at Adria
Monza cancels F3000 race over noise levels
Monza looks for out-of-court settlement
Officials launch Monza appeal
Monza officials seek to overturn verdict
Racing at Monza under threat

I've just heard on the news that the court, today, has confirmed his previous statement (along with all the unnecessary comments about motor-racing being dangerous, useless and more or less utterly stupid).
This means that all the racing activities involving unsilenced cars (farewell Coppa Intereuropa!) can't be held in this venue anymore, since the protestors refused the offer to have anti-noise barriers fitted to their houses.
This is the typical Italian way of screwing off things. Living in Genoa, I can tell you one or two things about people complaining about noise: the centre of the city, a net of narrow and twisty alleys and historical buidings, was until , say, 15 years ago a den of thieves, cut-throats and junkies and you were pretty sure you couldn't pass through it at night without being, at least, robbed. Then some courageous investors started to open shops and pubs, and to restore buidings with the help of the municipality and quickly the centre of the city became the place to live and to spent evenings and nights in (people litteraly flocked - and still flock - there). Now, the same inhabitants who, as a result of this "renaissance", has seen their properties' value to sky-rocket during the past few years, are bearing a foolish battle to shut down all the business in the place, since they're sick of all the "mayhem" caused by the patrons. And we're slowly heading to the dark ages again...

In England we have a term 'NIMBY' which stands for 'Not In My Back Yard'

Anyway, I've signed the petition.

I've signed it too. #3665, not far from a certain " Johnny Bute (Dumfries) " #3556
I must say I'm not aware of all the lastest details. This is a long lasting battle in Milano. I just hope that even if they close the racing facility the circuit will be preserved some way, for the sake of history and in memory of Arcangeli, Ascari, Trips, Peterson, Campari, Rindt, Moser and all the others who died there...

This is unbelievable! If you don't like the noise, then don't move there. Go live in Como, near the lake.

It's unbelievable that something like that can happen. Isn't there any historical landmark rule in Italy? It's like taking down the roman ruins to built an apartment building. You can't do that? ANd, who is this group anyways? Does anyone have any information on these people?

Originally posted by Frank Verplanken

I just hope that even if they close the racing facility the circuit will be preserved some way, for the sake of history and in memory of Arcangeli, Ascari, Trips, Peterson, Campari, Rindt, Moser and all the others who died there...

...not forgetting Renzo Pasolini and Jarno Saarinen.

Monza is to my mind the most evocotive circuit still in active use for international racing, and losing it would be nothing short of a tragedy. I'll be there for the World Superbikes (which last year attracted a bigger crowd than the GP) and will be tuned-in for any developments.

Just ridiculous, really.

On a side note, the same thing happened to Hockenheim. Residents living in newly built houses near the circuit managed to impose a decibel limit during weekdays. The result is that no racing teams go testing there anymore. I'm sure this isn't helping Hockeinheim in it's current situation.

Laguna Seca has the same problem. The Skip Barber cars have to run mufflers. I believe this is why they built Buttonwillow in the middle of the freaking desert; only the coyotes & jack rabbits will be p*ssed off and so far these guys can't vote....

I can see Phoenix Int. (oval) having a problem in the future. There is big development close by. Honestly, if the track was there first, people should know this and shouldn't be able to complain. It's like building a house near train tracks, can you really complain about the noise?

Monza is surrounded by apartment buildings, and from what I understand they have always been there, so why is it now an issue? The track is more or less in the middle of Monza the city. It's the central park, and is close to a palace, which I assume is the mayor's house. So, what is the issue all of a sudden?

OK, according to this: http://www.repubblic...blemimonza.html

There are three families who filed the complaint. 3-families who live close to the track will close the place down because some judge feels that racing is, "unnecessary, dangerous and of no social usefulness." What a complete joke the Italian justice system is if this indeed happens. :

Is this crisis purely a noise issue ?

Is the same issue actively a real threat to other racing venues around the world ?

If so then reality must be faced up to quickly by the F.I.A. ............this is precisely their function in life .

They need to negotiate a new world noise level standard and then impose a ruling for everyone and commission work to produce a technical fix to comply.

At the same time they would do well to incorporate mandatory exhaust catalysts (already in force in some catagories for 13 years ) , remember TWR 's class winning XJ220 at Le Mans 1993 post race disqualification because the catalysts were missing from the exhast systems ?
The conversion of toxic gases in to beneign ones and noise level reductions would at a stroke disable much of the environmentatist argument.

Action is needed now ......not after the circuits have been built over.

This is a live issue and ignoring it will not do anymore in 2006..............otherwise we will lose the lot in short order.

Monza is to my mind the most evocotive circuit still in active use for international racing, and losing it would be nothing short of a tragedy.

I mulled this petition over for a few nanoseconds and refuse to sign it. I am not going to waste any of my tears on the place. Whatever mixed feelings I may have had about the old place, when it became chicane-heaven I basically wrote it off. Get over it, Monza is dead. Get used to it, folks. European motor racing as it once existed, with its grand style, is long dead. The Monza that exists today is just something that happens to be on the same spot as the old place. The real Monza died decades ago. I really don't give a **** if they never have another race there. Maybe Italy can outsource its GP -- excuse me, "F1 GP" to Kuwait or Saudia or even Libya or some other market such as India or Indonesia or allow a second F1 race in China. It is getting easier with every day that passes to lose interest in motor racing as it is currently practiced.

A quote from the latest autosport article:
"According to Gazzetta dello Sport, the Monza residents were willing to accept a reduction of noisy activity at the track from the current 75 days per year to 60, but the managers of the circuit deemed the restriction too severe and rejected the arrangement"."

Reading this I find thread title like "Save Monza" and all the whining the end of racing way over the top!
A maximum of 60 noisy days is a very reasonable thing to ask IMHO.

Originally posted by scheivlak
A quote from the latest autosport article:
"According to Gazzetta dello Sport, the Monza residents were willing to accept a reduction of noisy activity at the track from the current 75 days per year to 60, but the managers of the circuit deemed the restriction too severe and rejected the arrangement"."

Reading this I find thread title like "Save Monza" and all the whining the end of racing way over the top!
A maximum of 60 noisy days is a very reasonable thing to ask IMHO.

I read that too. But, from what I understood in Italian, and our friend gdecarli who lives in Monza can better inform us, is that the residents asked for 60, but the judge deemed it too much because he said racing was useless, etc. And, that's why racing and testing have been canceled so far. I think if Monza would have agreed to 60-days, then that 60-days would turn into 50 next year, then 40, then 30, etc. I think 75 days is already a deal made between the track and residents. You have to understand that Autodromo Monza makes it's money when 'noisy days' happen. I.E If the track stays idol, no revenue is brought in. But, if there is testing and racing, then revenue is made.

I've got some sympathy with what Don says.

What a desperately dull, bland, sanitised, featureless place that Malaysian track was today with decades of senseless refusal to change the cars rather than the circuits this is what we are left with.

Ugly looking race cars , with nasty 'tea tray' shaped objects sticking out all over them , still with insane levels of downforce and ludicrously complex qualifying rules that make a mockery of any real racing and are a complete turn off,................ the future looks bleak indeed.

Originally posted by RTH

I've got some sympathy with what Don says.

So you agree that Monza is dead?

I'm no chicane lover - far from it - but the venue as a whole absolutely oozes charisma everywhere (bar the pitlane) like no other circuit. Loads of it remains untouched; access roads, tunnels and the like plus of course a decent ammount of the banking remains.

Of course being forced to bugger about with the track layout hasn't done it any favours (has it anywhere?) and F1 there is as crap as it is everywhere else, but it does still make a fantastic track for motorcycle racing.

Oh no , that is the last thing I want to see happen , I've been there myself and it is a special and aethetically pleasing place with plenty of character.
I don't subscribe to the view that motor sport has to be beyond the threshold of aural pain to be real. A bit of toning down would I think make some visitors MORE likely to return.

If this is the only argument I think that is quite surmountable . The F1 cars however need a root and branch rethink and the sporting rules could well go back to those of the 1970s with benefit.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


I mulled this petition over for a few nanoseconds and refuse to sign it. I am not going to waste any of my tears on the place. Whatever mixed feelings I may have had about the old place, when it became chicane-heaven I basically wrote it off. Get over it, Monza is dead. Get used to it, folks. European motor racing as it once existed, with its grand style, is long dead. The Monza that exists today is just something that happens to be on the same spot as the old place. The real Monza died decades ago. I really don't give a **** if they never have another race there. Maybe Italy can outsource its GP -- excuse me, "F1 GP" to Kuwait or Saudia or even Libya or some other market such as India or Indonesia or allow a second F1 race in China. It is getting easier with every day that passes to lose interest in motor racing as it is currently practiced.

Save Monza! I would rather say "Save F1"

There is much more to Motor Racing than Formula 1.
Monza is a great circuit, even today!
Apart from the first chicane which is badly done, the rest is ok and when you race at Monza you feel it's History.

The Italian Government should take the decision to keep it open and running. If they close Monza, they may as well close the Vatican...........
The protesters should not be allowed to close a circuit that's been there since 1922; when did they move in???

If we don't fight these stupid decisions we will only keep modern Tilke-stadiums that have nothing to do with a real racing circuit, and on top of that we will only be able to race in Dubai or China.

Originally posted by WHITE
I would rather say "Save F1"

"F1" is well beyond saving at this point.

Originally posted by hhh
There is much more to Motor Racing than Formula 1.

Outside of this forum, I doubt few Elsewhere on A/AF1 or any of a dozen other fora would agree with that sentiment at all.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


"F1" is well beyond saving at this point.

I agree with you, but I didn't dare saying it myself !

Originally posted by Twin Window
So you agree that Monza is dead?

I'm no chicane lover - far from it - but the venue as a whole absolutely oozes charisma everywhere (bar the pitlane) like no other circuit. Loads of it remains untouched; access roads, tunnels and the like plus of course a decent ammount of the banking remains.

Of course being forced to bugger about with the track layout hasn't done it any favours (has it anywhere?) and F1 there is as crap as it is everywhere else, but it does still make a fantastic track for motorcycle racing.

I agree with what's written here.

The chicane madness (the first chicane really is dire compared to the old one) at the same time provides an entertaining showcase for a modern GP car. Watching them in person come down that straight at nearly 230mph and then watch them brake is absurd. The first few cars that come through your eyes and head pan at a rate that doesnt expect the car to stop so quickly. You're looking where you expect it to be in a fraction of a second, and its already come to an almost dead stop.

Monza of the 80s/90s was very nice I thought. Lesmos were still two very proper corners and even the first chicane complex took a bit of technique, bearing in mind the wiggle-factor of ultra low df open wheelers.

At least Monza can provide us with a throwback to what once was. Whilst it's certainly not the circuit it used to be, it does give us that glimpse of the great days, without too much concentration of the imagination. Where else does nowadays - unless you want to include Monaco?

I didn't see the Grand Prix today (normal, for me), but I did see five minutes or so of the practice yesterday and really didn't get it at all. Inevitably, that cretin James Allen only served to provide more confusion and once I'd noticed that the landscape this week seemed to be a rather odd looking grey (as opposed to the sandy colour provided last week), I simply turned off.

Yes, Formula One is unpleasant on the eye these days, but it would help if at least the backdrop had some semblance of normality.

As has been said on here before, time and time again, change the cars!!!

I agree what some of you are saying about F1. But, a lot of newer fans have no idea what F1 was like in 80's, 70's or 50's & 60's for that matter. I can't talk about F1 in the 70's because I was too young. 1982 and above is when I can really talk about F1. For me F1 as 'THE' series died in 1994. Not really after Senna died, but when the rules became stupid and the tracks even more. I can tell you about the 1988 season a lot better then the 1998 season. I watch every GP since 1985, but could honestly give a sh*te about the ones after 1993. But, this last season I got interested again, and this season I am really into it. It's a combination of open wheel racing in the states being comepletely uninteresting and the fact that we have some new faces in f1 that are worth following.

But, history is history and no matter how lame Monza, Spa and Nurburgring have become those places still mean something special. If we lose those 3 races, it's like losing Ferrari. Monza still means something and as twin window said, the track has personality. If you go, you must jump the fense and stand on the old banking. It's pure magic! The 24-Hours of Le Mans is still the 24-Hours of Le Mans, no matter how mickey mouse they make the track. As long as the race happens at Le Sarthe, the race will always mean something. Therefore, as long as Monza is around, it will always be special, chicanes or no chicanes. Closing it will be a tragity.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


I mulled this petition over for a few nanoseconds and refuse to sign it. I am not going to waste any of my tears on the place. Whatever mixed feelings I may have had about the old place, when it became chicane-heaven I basically wrote it off. Get over it, Monza is dead. Get used to it, folks. European motor racing as it once existed, with its grand style, is long dead. The Monza that exists today is just something that happens to be on the same spot as the old place.

St Andrews has been lengthened and altered over the years to keep pace with golf technology and tournament requirements, but it doesn't make the place any less special or historically important.

I'm afraid I don't share the cynical view displayed by others, and personally think it would be a shame if motor-racing fans didn't kick up a fuss about this purely because they stuck some chicanes in and ruined the Lesmos. Underneath it all, it's still Monza.

Originally posted by Fiorentina 1
I read that too. But, from what I understood in Italian, and our friend gdecarli who lives in Monza can better inform us, is that the residents asked for 60, but the judge deemed it too much because he said racing was useless, etc. And, that's why racing and testing have been canceled so far. I think if Monza would have agreed to 60-days, then that 60-days would turn into 50 next year, then 40, then 30, etc. I think 75 days is already a deal made between the track and residents. You have to understand that Autodromo Monza makes it's money when 'noisy days' happen. I.E If the track stays idol, no revenue is brought in. But, if there is testing and racing, then revenue is made.

You misunderstood. The sequence of events is:

1) local residents file a formal complaint
2) judge temporarily bans racing and writes that racing is useless
3) residents and track fail to find a compromise (60 days limit not accepted by the Monza autodrome)

Next event will be a new court hearing on March 30th.

I know Fiorentina 1 touched on this, but it still hasn't gone into my poor old brain: is the 60 days for all circuit activity, or just that which goes above a particular noise limit?

If it's the former, 60 days can't be enough to keep the place going all year round.

I agree that the modern Monza as a racing venue is pretty dire. But as a monument to the glorious past of our beloved sport, there are few equals.

So maybe Monza should be converted into a silent museum.

Edward

Originally posted by SEdward
I agree that the modern Monza as a racing venue is pretty dire. But as a monument to the glorious past of our beloved sport, there are few equals.

So maybe Monza should be converted into a silent museum.

Edward

How many would be prepared to hear the silence ? :

Excuse me if I sound a bit cynical but, as long as I can switch the TV on and confortably seat down on my armchair to watch a race ( preferably an interesting one ), I do not really mind whether it takes place in Italy, Belgium, here in Spain or wherever it can be.

Excuse me if I've missed something but....if you don't like the noise emitted by racing cars, why the hell move to near Monza?! I'm pretty sure the circuit has been there longer than any residents have, short of any 80-90-somethings who have lived there their entire life...nothing has been forced on them!!!

Signed.

Originally posted by Mickey

3) residents and track fail to find a compromise (60 days limit not accepted by the Monza autodrome)

Originally posted by James Page

I know Fiorentina 1 touched on this, but it still hasn't gone into my poor old brain: is the 60 days for all circuit activity, or just that which goes above a particular noise limit?


The first limit asked, from the three Families, who wanted 30 days overall, was later changed to 60 days. Three Families from more then 100’000 Monza inhabitants.

This means Monza has to stop also it's regular driving school activity with normal road cars and bikes. This activity is normally 150 days during the year, absolute nothing to do with racing activity.

This means also 35 families without fulltime work, and also the part time work will by oppressed.

Originally posted by bschenker
3) residents and track fail to find a compromise (60 days limit not accepted by the Monza autodrome)

I know Fiorentina 1 touched on this, but it still hasn't gone into my poor old brain: is the 60 days for all circuit activity, or just that which goes above a particular noise limit?


The first limit asked, from the three Families, who wanted 30 days overall, was later changed to 60 days. Three Families from more then 100’000 Monza inhabitants.

This means Monza has to stop also it's regular driving school activity with normal road cars and bikes. This activity is normally 150 days during the year, absolute nothing to do with racing activity.

This means also 35 families without fulltime work, and also the part time work will by oppressed.

Somehow I have the idea that this is either a rather simplistic account or (quite possible) the Monza circuit board are the worst lobbyists in the world.

Originally posted by Mickey

You misunderstood. The sequence of events is:

1) local residents file a formal complaint
2) judge temporarily bans racing and writes that racing is useless
3) residents and track fail to find a compromise (60 days limit not accepted by the Monza autodrome)

Next event will be a new court hearing on March 30th.

Thanks. This makes more sense. Noisy days include racing schools with road cars, correct? If yes then I see why Monza did not go for the 60-days.

I still can't believe 3 families could do that. So basically, if Mugello wanted to fight Monza for the rights to host the Italian GP all they have to do is pay-off 3 Monza residents to file a complaint.....

Originally posted by Fiorentina 1
I still can't believe 3 families could do that.

Let's be sensible. Just because there are only three actual plaintiffs in the case doesn't mean that there aren't a lot more who back what they are doing. I don't know if Italian law allows for 'class actions' as in the US where there can be hundreds or even thousands of joint plaintiffs in a case. Monza is in a major urban area and it is quite likely that, rightly or wrongly, there are a lot more disaffected residents than just these three family groups. The argument that they shouldn't have moved there if they don't like the noise is a bit thin. Many of them may have been born there and have hjhad no choice but to put up with the noise for all of their lives. Maybe some are saying 'OK, I have put up with this for 20/30/40 years but enough is enough'

We do our case no favours by arrogantly dismissing the objections of people who do not share our enthusiasms.

I agree with that, Monza MUST now face up to this issue and cut the noise levels from all cars that run at their track, beautiful park though it is , - it is in an urban area, its only fair in this day and age to drastically quieten it all down, then there would be no reason the circuit could not be used every day.

F.I.A. face up to it quieten all racing cars including F1 all around the world .

About the 60 days limit an example:

You go with a Citroen 2 CV to Monza a make an only lap with this car, end then for the rest of the day is not other activity.


This will count like one-day activity.

Originally posted by bschenker
About the 60 days limit an example:

You go with a Citroen 2 CV to Monza a make an only lap with this car, end then for the rest of the day is not other activity.


This will count like one-day activity.

Is this true? I thought there was some sort of noise issue here.

Originally posted by RTH
I agree with that, Monza MUST now face up to this issue and cut the noise levels from all cars that run at their track, beautiful park though it is , - it is in an urban area, its only fair in this day and age to drastically quieten it all down, then there would be no reason the circuit could not be used every day.

F.I.A. face up to it quieten all racing cars including F1 all around the world .

I'll begrudgingly agree that this is the way motor racing will probably have to go, but what a shame. Would V16 Auto Unions and BRMs, V12 Matras and Ferraris, or even a latter-day V10 have had quite the same appeal if they'd been silenced?

Personally, I think the noise is an integral part of motor racing, but will agree that - across society in general - that very much puts me in the minority.