Robert O'Brien - mystery man...
#101
Posted 31 March 2006 - 09:19
Rather than chasing after what are possibly false leads isn't there a need now to start at the very beginning. Does anyone have access to contemporary foreign language reports of the race, Belgian newspapers of the time or whatever which might give some clues as to the identity of this driver?
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#102
Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:26
Huet in his Gordini book writes that "the car usually driven by Claes was driven by Belgian O'Brien". Just to muddle things a bit more.....
If Richie Jenkins reads this:
I went to the site you mentioned earlier and found all the short drivers' bio I wrote for Leif's Golden Era site copied there. What do you suggest that Leif and I do about this?
Please email me.
#103
Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:31
Looking at photographs of drivers in Gordinis in 1952 most of them have their shoulders lower than the rear bodywork of the car. Trintignant and Manzon were fairly short I think and Behra was no taller although his torso was longer and his legs shorter so his shoulders are almost level. O'Brien in the Belgian GP appears to have his shoulders above the rear bodywork which would indicate he was quite tall. Photographs of O'Brien out of car suggests this was not the case.
He doesn't seem to bee any taller than Frere or Behra, from the pictures that I can compare with. Note that he is leaning in the car.
And he also seem to have a raincoat on (just like some other of the drivers that day) and since that has blown up in the wind, he looks a lot bigger then he probably is/was.
#104
Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:51
Originally posted by alessandro silva
I do not know if this had been ever mentioned before:
Huet in his Gordini book writes that "the car usually driven by Claes was driven by Belgian O'Brien". Just to muddle things a bit more.....
If Richie Jenkins reads this:
I went to the site you mentioned earlier and found all the short drivers' bio I wrote for Leif's Golden Era site copied there. What do you suggest that Leif and I do about this?
Please email me.
May be you can see this in some context with the fact that his car was entered and owned by Comtess de Walkiers.
#105
Posted 31 March 2006 - 14:54
#106
Posted 31 March 2006 - 15:11
I also found WALCHIERS but if you try WALCKIERS google will helpOriginally posted by KJJ
This Comtesse or Viscomtesse de Walkiers (both versions appear on TNF), is there an alternative spelling of the surname? There don't seem to be very many references on Google for what I assume was a prominent aristocratic family.
#107
Posted 31 March 2006 - 17:57
#108
Posted 05 June 2006 - 17:54
The Walckiers family does exist on several genealogy sites on the web. They seem to come from a place called Denderhoutem, east of Brussels.
The Robert O'Brien pictured pushing Frere's car at Zandvoort, is also clearly pictured in the Gordini pit at Spa in 1952 in a photo in Delsaux's book "50 Grands Prix de Belgique". (Pity it can't be posted due to "copyright"). So we know he was there!
Also, the racing image of Gordini No.44 is definitely taken at Spa (identified by Roger Clark as photographed from the infield below the pits, approaching Eau Rouge).
#109
Posted 05 June 2006 - 19:55
I hope this O'Brien mystery can be solved from the Belgian end by someone who has access to the Belgian (French or Flemish) newspapers and magazines of the period.
#110
Posted 05 June 2006 - 20:24
de Walckiers seems more likely to be a bankier family active in 18 and 19 century
Robert
#111
Posted 05 June 2006 - 22:07
Originally posted by KJJ
I hope this O'Brien mystery can be solved from the Belgian end by someone who has access to the Belgian (French or Flemish) newspapers and magazines of the period.
No need for the Belgians.
We think we've cracked this.
Adam sent me an e-mail earlier with the findings of his request for info from the IMMRC. With his permission, and for the benefit of all, I reproduce it below.
I have now received a reply from the IMMRC at Watkins Glen.
I asked them for :-
1) copies of two programme entry lists for U.S. races which we know RO'B competed in (1951 Palm Shores & 1952 Vero Beach).
2) copies of the lists of new SCCA members for 1951 from the SCCA bi-monthly magazine "Sports Car", as Mike Argetsinger's post said the RO'B joined the SCCA in 1951.
Of the two entry lists, at Vero Beach O'Brien isn't listed, so he must have been a last minute entry
However, at Palm Shores he is listed as "Bob O'Brien......Hackensack, New Jersey".
The Sports Car new members lists for 1951 don't list anyone called Robert O'Brien. However, for whatever reason, they only sent me copies up to October 1951. I'll follow up and see whether he is listed in Nov/Dec 1951 or later.
Of course, a middle initial would still help things greatly!
Roger Clark also discovered that RO'B was entered for the Targa Florio in a Frazer Nash, one week after the Belgian Grand Prix, but didn't start. This would tie with the quote from Considine's book "O'Brien toured Europe that season, towing his Frazer Nash behind a Cadillac".
Conclusion (so far........)
I think we know that :-
The "Robert O'Brien" who appeared in Europe in 1952 was the same guy who raced in East Coast racing in the U.S. in 1951/52 (photos show this)
This guy was from Hackensack, New Jersey (in 1951) and Nassau, New York (according to Mike Argesinger), hence his racing was exclusively on the East Coast.
He entered/raced under the same name in Europe as in the U.S., so there is no reason to suppose that Robert O'Brien was not his real name.
He was definitely at Spa for the 1952 Belgian GP (see latest photo)
He was about 30-35 years old in June 1952 (see photos)
So, we are looking for a Robert O'Brien, based on the East Coast, who was born around 1917 to 1922. Does the US SSDI give any candidates?
I'll post something on TNF re. the Spa photo of O'Brien.
Hope all this helps.
That's the background.
Then we realised that one of the 30 "probables" I found way back fits, very, very snugly indeed, with the above information and the probable age taking that photo into account.
and that is:
born 11 April 1908 (appears to be Lyndhurst, New Jersey) d. 10 February 1987, Hackensack, New Jersey
I think this is our man for a few reasons:-
1) Hackensack is a HUGE co-incidence. There are others who fall in that category, but not of the right age. Of course, ROB may've moved, but there's no evidence for that - certainly he was still in NJ in the 1960's.
2) The man is clearly over 35 in the photo. 44 seems a fair age, taking the photo in account, and it fits in enough with a brief racing career after WW2. If he were younger, you'd expect his career to go on longer.
3) Above ROB has no middle initial I can ascertain. Neither does the SCCA man.
4) Crucially, it appears ROB spent most of his time in NJ or NY. 1908-1987 ROB died in NJ, was born in NJ, but also lived in NY, one of these places included....... Nassau.....
Of course, this isn't 100% cast-iron, but I don't think it ever will be, such is his obscurity. But as I said to Adam, who deserves a huge pat on the back for all his efforts, there quite simply isn't anyone else who comes close, considering all the evidence.
So it's up to you folks, but for now, I will be submitting & using the 1908-1987 theory around & its up to everyone to make their own minds up.
#112
Posted 06 June 2006 - 00:43
#113
Posted 06 June 2006 - 05:48
Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
I think we know that :-
The "Robert O'Brien" who appeared in Europe in 1952 was the same guy who raced in East Coast racing in the U.S. in 1951/52 (photos show this)
This seems to be the key to the identification, I think we need to see these photographs.
#114
Posted 06 June 2006 - 08:45
I think we need to see these photographs
Unfortunately, due to Bira's much appreciated restrictions on posting photos, I can't post them.
I will e-mail you a copy, and to anyone else who is interested.
#115
Posted 07 June 2006 - 16:58
#116
Posted 07 June 2006 - 17:10
I'll be in New Jersey in early August and was going to volunteer to do some digging but I'll be based down in Hopewell so I guess you're much better placed. Do you know if the Bergen Record has a public library?
Allen
#117
Posted 07 June 2006 - 17:19
#118
Posted 07 June 2006 - 18:36
Originally posted by scags
Their site is www.northjersey.com/therecord. I'll try to find the obit, but I can't get to it for a week or two.
That would be great. At best, it could confirm it. At the worst, it would remove another possibility, or a few, actually. Would you mind looking for any other Hackensack Robert O'Brien's, Scags, just in case?
#119
Posted 07 June 2006 - 20:26
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#120
Posted 08 June 2006 - 19:35
But - unfortunately - we are no closer.
Allen
#121
Posted 08 June 2006 - 20:18
Richie - anything else you'd like me to ask the Bergen Record?
Allen
#122
Posted 08 June 2006 - 20:27
a) Do they have ANY newspaper reports or anything on him? Surely, if he was from Hackensack at some point, there might have been a report either in the 1950's or a nostalgia report later on.
b) There was a garage he owned nearby, I believe. would they be able to track back & confirm local businesses, ie. a garage named Robert O'Brien... Ford or whatever?
Cheers
#123
Posted 09 June 2006 - 11:41
Although he does not appear to have actually raced the car in Europe, O'Brien or a W.O'Brien (New York) did acquire a Frazer-Nash Mille Miglia, 421/100/163 in 1952, although the delivery date was February, according to the appendix in Jenk's "From chain drive to turbocharger", the book about the marque.
Another Frazer-Nash, a Mk II Le Mans Replica, 421/200/193, was delivered to W.O'Brien (New York) in January, 1954.
Possibly the Frazer-Nash Club has more details about these cars and subsequent owners.
Slowly a profile is being built up about this man, if indeed W.O'Brien (New York) is our Robert "Bob" O'Brien!!
Also there is a likely reason O'Brien received no recognition, if indeed that is the case (!!), from the SCCA on his Belgian GP drive.
Included in the restrictions placed on the amateurs drivers of the SCCA was one that stated members could participate in an international FIA race provided they were granted permission by the club. Possibly O'Brien jumped at the chance to drive at Spa and failed to get official sanction from the SCCA before the race. This would lead to his expulsion from the club; thus no mention of his exploits. However there would be a terse statement about his ban in their journal "SportsCar".
Does any TNTer have a run of the magazine?
John
#124
Posted 09 June 2006 - 20:44
#125
Posted 09 June 2006 - 20:56
#127
Posted 13 June 2006 - 20:17
Little information can be gleaned from the British journals of the day about the F2 race but I turned to an old notebook compiled back in the 1970s and, to my surprise, I had recorded that amongst the starters for the F.Libre race was - R.O'Brien (Gordini)!
Checks in Motor Sport, Autosport, The Motor, no mention, but in The Autocar there was a list of all the starters in the F.Libre race and sure enough - R.O'Brien (Gordini)! Whether O'Brien or Johnny Claes drove the car in the F2 race is not known.
Now Graham any photographs of #28 would be useful.
John
#128
Posted 13 June 2006 - 21:52
#129
Posted 14 June 2006 - 07:22
#130
Posted 14 June 2006 - 11:56
Originally posted by scags
So far, no luck from the Star -Ledger, but it might be interesting if someone (AKA Ritchie), who knows all the details so far, would email the Record and pitch it as a story for their paper. If they're up for it, they would use their library for info, and if printed, it might bring friends and family of our mystery man out of the woodwork.
Okay, but with a slight difference.
I'd do a rough write-up of everything, then send it to you, via e-mail, Scags, if that's alright, and then you take it from there? It also gives you a chance to proof-read it before you send it to them.
What with the World Cup & a heap of other stuff to do, I hope to have it done by the end of the week at the earliest, probably over the weekend.
#131
Posted 14 June 2006 - 17:02
#132
Posted 14 June 2006 - 18:49
Originally posted by Allen Brown
I'm glad I'm not the only man who sees the World Cup as the main priority for the month.
At the moment, I'm having to pack all the "Must-Do's" & other bits & pieces like shopping etc. into the day before two. Eating comes in between the 2nd match and the start of the 3rd!! I'll be glad when it's only two games a day, gives a bit more lee-way.
#133
Posted 14 June 2006 - 20:18
#134
Posted 14 June 2006 - 21:13
Originally posted by scags
Fine with me. Do you have my e-mail address? By the way, there are 224 O'briens listed in the Hackensack area white pages.....
I'll send it via Atlas.
Surely 1 of those 224 O'Brien's must know something.....
David, we know you hate football, but please let us on TNF who love the sport, enjoy it, just for once, with another sniping or sniffy comment?
I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I polluted every motorbike thread in TNF with the same, for I feel the same way about motorcycling as you do football.
#135
Posted 14 June 2006 - 23:27
#136
Posted 25 June 2006 - 12:48
#137
Posted 28 June 2006 - 17:29
I know this because I own both the O'Brien Nashes and am in touch with the person who not only helped deliver the second car to him in early 1954 but also bought it from him in 1957. He said that this man never raced and hardly travelled.
I am also the Frazer Nash Car Club's registrar for the post-war Frazer Nashes and a trustee of the Frazer Nash Archives in Henley-upon-Thames. I would dearly like to know which Frazer Nash Bob O'Brien did own in 1952 as I have been unable to identify it out of the 84 built post-war.
James Trigwell
#138
Posted 28 June 2006 - 18:03
That's one avenue closed. Just a long shot but did Miles Collier ever own a Frazer Nash?
John
#139
Posted 28 June 2006 - 18:24
I'm new and dont know what a TNFer is !! Is it good or bad?
Miles Collier did not (an MG man n'est-ce pas?) but Briggs Cunningham did.
: James
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#140
Posted 28 June 2006 - 18:53
It's the highest possible accolade - it means you are a member of The Nostalgia ForumOriginally posted by Trigwell
I'm new and dont know what a TNFer is !! Is it good or bad?
#141
Posted 30 June 2006 - 18:52
#142
Posted 30 June 2006 - 18:59
Originally posted by scags
I I also got to hear some great stories about driving against Sterling Moss in the coup d' alps.
Was that a NASCAR race?
#143
Posted 30 June 2006 - 21:40
Originally posted by scags
I had a talk today with a guy named Klaus Rexroth, who raced in the northeast during the fifties & sixties. He rembered a guy named O'brien, and believed he ran an Alfa-Romeo dealership, in Patterson, nj.
Well, that fits in, with the possible garage/dealership in New Jersey, that's for sure. (providing it's the same man)
Thanks for the info.
How far is Patterson from Hackensack?
#144
Posted 30 June 2006 - 22:56
#145
Posted 30 June 2006 - 23:05
#146
Posted 30 June 2006 - 23:18
#147
Posted 01 July 2006 - 05:29
In bad taste, i am disabled...............................................................................Originally posted by Paul Taylor
'Tis this!:
http://www.crasheram.../52_BelgianGP_O
#148
Posted 01 July 2006 - 10:09
#149
Posted 01 July 2006 - 10:35
#150
Posted 11 July 2006 - 22:31