Well Kimi won in Japan didn't he? China was a toss up race in which Renault had the best car . . . go figure.Originally posted by prty
Despite you still haven't explained why Kimi couldn't answer Alonso's pace when he had alredy won the championship
How many WDCs will Alonso win?
Started by
skittt
, Nov 11 2005 23:07
133 replies to this topic
#51
Ricardo F1
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 18:55
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#52
Menace
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 18:57
Originally posted by DCult
No, to people that are not full of fanatism as yourself, it is clear that Kimi has not won the championship in 2003 and 2005 because of the reliability of the McLaren. End of story. You think you are cleverer than the average person here? What exactly is your agenda and what are you trying to accomplish posting this **** over and over again? Why are you so afraid of Kimi? Please I would like to know.
It has been the same story since 2003, when according to Vrba Kimi was just "cruising" in the best car. Don't take it personally, Vrba (Speed_A) has a complex with Kimi. He knows Kimi is head and shoulders above the rest of the grid besides maybe MS and Alonso. You have to remember, Vrba rated Schumachers 2005 season more impressive then that of Kimi's.
#53
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:14
...within the current points system. Otherwise you wouldn't have included a "current points system where 1 DNF can mean you need 5 (!) wins to make it up" in your post.
Yes. But I didn´t say there is anything wrong with the current points system.
#54
magicalonso
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:26
So Kimi finishing behind Alonso doesn't mean anything because the Renault is the fastest car, but when the McLaren is the fastest car and Alonso doesn't win you don't view it quite like this, right?Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Well Kimi won in Japan didn't he? China was a toss up race in which Renault had the best car . . . go figure.
#55
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:26
Hehehe not quite, Tubbs started the discussion about needing more than a decent car if Kimi is around, or "you are pathetic" posts, so I'd say Kimi's fans (actually not Kimi's fans, but FA bashers) are more insecure to be honest, after all Fernando was the one who won
Well, if somebody claims FA in a decent car beat KR in a best car, rubbishing such statements is hardly insecurity.
I´d call it common sense.
Despite you still haven't explained why Kimi couldn't answer Alonso's pace when he had alredy won the championship
In China? Because there Renault had better car. According to FA himself he had the best car in Japan too, BTW.
The fact that overall McLaren had the pace advantage after Imola (where KR and FA had similar pace after 2 first laps) doesn´t mean McLaren was faster all the time. In Canada it looked like Renault had the upper hand, until Fisi had mechanical gremlins and Alonso stuffed it to the wall. In France & Great Britain it was very close. Nurburgring, too.
Even if we are generous and say McLaren was faster 2/3 of the time, it´s small advantage compared to 100% reliability.
#56
chris_canuk
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:33
FA will win one less WDC than KR.
#57
SeanValen
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:42
It's difficult to guess what teams are gonna be competitive for how long and when, but I think we should see more consistent challenges from other teams against Renault, which we didn't see this year, mclaren's reliability wasn't as good as the renault and they didn't get their qualifying sorted until Imola, and even then reliability knocked kimi out. But when consistent challenges happen, Alonso will be driving under more pressure, as will his challengers, then it'll be up to him to make the difference, the real test of a champion.
#58
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:46
Of course it's not KR's fault but it's FA's quality to always be there ready to pounce. Only great drivers are as consistent.Originally posted by Tubbs
So? It's not Kimi's fault that MS (who had the absolutely fastest car at Imola) and JPM made mistakes in those races.
#59
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:48
I'm not afraid of him at all. What did he won at all so far during his 4 years with a top team? I just respond to attempts to put down FA or MS and to hype up KR.Originally posted by DCult
No, to people that are not full of fanatism as yourself, it is clear that Kimi has not won the championship in 2003 and 2005 because of the reliability of the McLaren. End of story. You think you are cleverer than the average person here? What exactly is your agenda and what are you trying to accomplish posting this **** over and over again? Why are you so afraid of Kimi? Please I would like to know.
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#60
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:51
It's difficult to guess what teams are gonna be competitive for how long and when, but I think we should see more consistent challenges from other teams against Renault, which we didn't see this year, mclaren's reliability wasn't as good as the renault and they didn't get their qualifying sorted until Imola, and even then reliability knocked kimi out. But when consistent challenges happen, Alonso will be driving under more pressure, as will his challengers, then it'll be up to him to make the difference, the real test of a champion.
True...personally I don´t think Alonso was cruising this year, but I would like to see him in similar situation with KR this year - being forced to push 100% most of the time. He was great in Japan (like KR), but the question is could he do the same consistently? Don´t get me wrong - he was worthy champion, had the best machinery and used it to take the title with comfortable margin, but hopefully in the future we will learn how good he really is.
#61
prty
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:52
Not in an explicit way. But a "(!)" after saying that you need 5 wins to make up for a DNF implies it. Come on, don't be so hipocriteOriginally posted by Spunout
Yes. But I didn´t say there is anything wrong with the current points system.
I asked it to BorderReiver, I guess you know why. But if you don't, it was because while Renault had to play it safe for the championship, he was saying how Kimi was a much better driver as Alonso couldn't match his pace, and he will win it with less wins, etc. After China he had to shut up, though.Originally posted by Spunout
[B]
Well, if somebody claims FA in a decent car beat KR in a best car, rubbishing such statements is hardly insecurity.
I´d call it common sense.
In China? Because there Renault had better car. According to FA himself he had the best car in Japan too, BTW.
But don't get deffensive, as you alredy know, I think Alonso and Kimi are as fast as each other until they are in the same team for some time, while Alonso has the upper hand in thinking during the race.
#62
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:52
I'm not afraid of him at all. What did he won at all so far during his 4 years with a top team? I just respond to attempts to put down FA or MS and to hype up KR.
He almost beat 7XWDC MS with inferior car, and has won few races, too.
What did Mika Häkkinen win during his first 4 years at McLaren?
#63
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:56
Not in an explicit way. But a "(!)" after saying that you need 5 wins to make up for a DNF implies it. Come on, don't be so hipocrite
I am not, honestly! There was lots of discussion about "unfair points system" back in 2003, but I was one of the people defending it based on fact that nobody forced MS to throw away Brazil and Malaysia. To be perfectly honest, I´d propably prefer the old points system (EDIT - preferably with some tweaks to give points for top 8), but I really wasn´t critisizing the new one here
#64
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:56
If anything, KR fans seem to have a FA/MS complex as they constantly have to hype up KR, tell the rest of the world how KR is the best out there by far BEFORE they have any concrete proof for that. Guys, if KR really were that good, he wouldn't need your non-stop bashing of other drivers (winners) and his results would be good enough to show it even to the most suspicious observer. One day KR really gets a good result, all you excuses about equipment would not be necessary. Until the, they cannot help his cause as there are other drivers to praise for real achievments.Originally posted by chris_canuk
FA will win one less WDC than KR.
To make myself clear once more: I don't doubt KR's speed and he certainly has some other qualities as well (managing to stay out of trouble, especially when comparing to trouble-magnet like JPM) and I consider him o be one of the top 3 drivers in Formula 1 today. No more, no less.
#65
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 19:58
If anything, KR fans seem to have a FA/MS complex as they constantly have to hype up KR, tell the rest of the world how KR is the best out there by far BEFORE they have any concrete proof for that. Guys, if KR really were that good, he wouldn't need your non-stop bashing of other drivers (winners) and his results would be good enough to show it even to the most suspicious observer. One day KR really gets a good result, all you excuses about equipment would not be necessary. Until the, they cannot help his cause as there are other drivers to praise for real achievments.
If equipment is "excuse", could you list all the drivers with better results since 2001?
#66
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:00
There is no such thing as almost beat. Either he did beat him or he didn't. Alain Prost almost won 7 titles. He won 4.Originally posted by Spunout
He almost beat 7XWDC MS with inferior car, and has won few races, too.
What did Mika Häkkinen win during his first 4 years at McLaren?
#67
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:01
MS, FA, JPM is more-less equal. I'll discount RB. That supports my opinion of KR being an top-three driver.Originally posted by Spunout
If equipment is "excuse", could you list all the drivers with better results since 2001?
#68
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:03
MS, FA, JPM is more-less equal. I'll discount RB. That supports my opinion of KR being an top-three driver.
Maybe you should check out wins, poles and points of KR & FA since 2001. Discounting 2002 since FA was test driver that year.
#69
Tubbs
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:06
Originally posted by Speed_A
There is no such thing as almost beat.
But there is even though it causes you pain.
#70
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:06
There is no such thing as almost beat. Either he did beat him or he didn't. Alain Prost almost won 7 titles. He won 4.
But of course there is. Do you watch motor racing at all? Are you telling me 96/97/98/99 by Schumacher were unimpressive and completely irrelevant because he didn´t win the title? Or did you select this criteria simply because it happens to suit FA?
#71
Tubbs
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:11
Originally posted by Speed_A
If anything, KR fans seem to have a FA/MS complex as they constantly have to hype up KR, tell the rest of the world how KR is the best out there by far BEFORE they have any concrete proof for that.
Most thing KR fans here do is debunk the utterly ridiculous claims to put down Kimi into every way possible made by known bashers like you. I wouldn't call that hyping up nor proof of some FA/MS complex.
#72
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:11
What pain? My man won, you are the one who has to comfprt yourself with such inventions as "almost wins". You are the one who cannot find the name of your favourite in history books ;)Originally posted by Tubbs
But there is even though it causes you pain.
#73
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:12
McLaren and Renault teams have quite different histories and it goes all the way up to today. McLaren as a team was always a step above.Originally posted by Spunout
Maybe you should check out wins, poles and points of KR & FA since 2001. Discounting 2002 since FA was test driver that year.
#74
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:14
What pain? My man won, you are the one who has to comfprt yourself with such inventions as "almost wins". You are the one who cannot find the name of your favourite in history books
What a brilliant "my dad is stronger than your dad" argument.
Fanboyism at its best
#75
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:15
MS's 3rd place in 1996 was an extraordinary achievment considering his equipment. But it's not an almost win. It's a 3rd place in circumstances that put much more odds on lower placings. It's an unexpected and excelletly achieved 3rd place but it's a third place, not an almost win or almost second. It's a 3rd place with much weight on its side.Originally posted by Spunout
But of course there is. Do you watch motor racing at all? Are you telling me 96/97/98/99 by Schumacher were unimpressive and completely irrelevant because he didn´t win the title? Or did you select this criteria simply because it happens to suit FA?
#76
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:16
McLaren and Renault teams have quite different histories and it goes all the way up to today. McLaren as a team was always a step above.
But you said equipment is an excuse. Remember?
One day KR really gets a good result, all you excuses about equipment would not be necessary.
#77
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:16
Fanboyism or not, it's true. My man has concrete results behind him. Your guy has not. It's nothing to do with "my dad is stronger" level of argument. It's a mere statistical fact.Originally posted by Spunout
What a brilliant "my dad is stronger than your dad" argument.
Fanboyism at its best
#78
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:18
Yes because I wanted to say that I consider KR's equipment was good enough to warrant better results than he achieved. In other words, I think there are two drivers on the grid that would have fared better.Originally posted by Spunout
But you said equipment is an excuse. Remember?
#79
Tubbs
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:19
Originally posted by Speed_A
What pain? My man won, you are the one who has to comfprt yourself with such inventions as "almost wins".
But your man didn't win anything (except the USGP farce).
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#80
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:20
Yes because I wanted to say that I consider KR's equipment was good enough to warrant better results than he achieved. In other words, I think there are two drivers on the grid that would have fared better.
Oh dear
Look, you are confusing the rest of us by changing your arguments every 2 minutes, depending on whether they happen to suit your favourites.
#81
Tubbs
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:22
Originally posted by Speed_A
Yes because I wanted to say that I consider KR's equipment was good enough to warrant better results than he achieved. In other words, I think there are two drivers on the grid that would have fared better.
BS. The few mistakes of Kimi did not cost him the championship but the unreliability of his equipment. And MS did more mistakes during the year so I don't know how you can reach your conclusion.
#82
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:23
My men won 1st and 3rd places and beat McLaren on both fronts, I'm a happy man ;)Originally posted by Tubbs
But your man didn't win anything (except the USGP farce).
#83
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:24
I was completely consistent. I don't expect you to see it, though.Originally posted by Spunout
Oh dear
Look, you are confusing the rest of us by changing your arguments every 2 minutes, depending on whether they happen to suit your favourites.
#84
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:34
I was completely consistent. I don't expect you to see it, though.
You were? I´ll give one example:
One day KR really gets a good result, all you excuses about equipment would not be necessary.
So, equipment is an excuse (applies only to KR, of course).
McLaren and Renault teams have quite different histories and it goes all the way up to today. McLaren as a team was always a step above.
Oh, so the quality of equipment is based on history.
MS's 3rd place in 1996 was an extraordinary achievment considering his equipment.
But...I thought Ferrari had rather succesful history?
#85
Tubbs
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:34
Originally posted by Speed_A
My men won 1st and 3rd places and beat McLaren on both fronts, I'm a happy man ;)
When did you become Alonso fan two weeks ago?
Everybody here knows that MS is "your man". You are pretending to be FA fan only to serve your agenda. Oh now third place is won. Unsurprisingly I don't remember you saying Kimi won the 2nd place.
#86
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:36
When did you become Alonso fan two weeks ago? Everybody here knows that MS is "your man". You are pretending to be FA fan only to serve your agenda. Oh now third place is won. Unsurprisingly I don't remember you saying Kimi won the 2nd place.
Stop critisizing him. He is completely consistent, we just can´t see it
#87
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:48
You know very well what I wanted to say but choose to pretend not to understand. OK with me.Originally posted by Spunout
You were? I´ll give one example:
So, equipment is an excuse (applies only to KR, of course).
Oh, so the quality of equipment is based on history.
But...I thought Ferrari had rather succesful history?
#88
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:51
MS and FA are my favourites. I'm neutral to KR and dislike McLaren. I don't deny it. Now, English is not my mother tongue but as far as I know, every place is won and KR therefore won second place. Deservedly.Originally posted by Tubbs
When did you become Alonso fan two weeks ago?
BTW, isn't it funny that not a single poster ever objected my posts EXCEPT die-hard KR fans?
#89
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 20:51
You know very well what I wanted to say but choose to pretend not to understand. OK with me.
Nobody knows what you are trying to say anymore.
#90
Tubbs
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 21:10
Originally posted by Speed_A
I'm neutral to KR and dislike McLaren. I don't deny it.
You dislike them both. Why do you try to deny it? Trying to get you some creditability?
Now, English is not my mother tongue but as far as I know, every place is won and KR therefore won second place. Deservedly.
A true politician.
BTW, isn't it funny that not a single poster ever objected my posts EXCEPT die-hard KR fans?
Funny? It's completely predictable that since you hype up FA and MS their fans don't object. Then there are those who don't care or are too tired to argue. I know if there's a driver I feel indifferent to I rarely will want to get into debating.
#91
Spunout
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 21:17
BTW, isn't it funny that not a single poster ever objected my posts EXCEPT die-hard KR fans?
That´s only because you call people who object "die-hard KR fans". Meaning most people here are die-hard KR fans, of course.
#92
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 21:24
There is also another possible explanation, far more plausible. I'll let you guess it.Originally posted by Tubbs
Funny? It's completely predictable that since you hype up FA and MS their fans don't object. Then there are those who don't care or are too tired to argue. I know if there's a driver I feel indifferent to I rarely will want to get into debating.
#93
Speed_A
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 21:26
No, you can almost yount people who object my posts on the fingers of the one hand: you, Weber, HSJ, menace, tojack, Tubbs. If I forgot somebody, sorry, I din't mean to.Originally posted by Spunout
That´s only because you call people who object "die-hard KR fans". Meaning most people here are die-hard KR fans, of course.
#94
Ricardo F1
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 21:49
Nope, just answering the question. When you've two top drivers like FA and KR going head to head the fact is only a faster car or some radically better team work in the pits is going to show the difference.Originally posted by magicalonso
So Kimi finishing behind Alonso doesn't mean anything because the Renault is the fastest car, but when the McLaren is the fastest car and Alonso doesn't win you don't view it quite like this, right?
#95
jokuvaan
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 22:33
I would predict that he wins max 1 more. Especially if he is going to retire way younger age than MS.
#96
Bravo
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 22:49
Even if Alonso drops in a total-domination-like-Ferrari team? One thing not impossible at all, by the way. It could happen to Kimi if he ends in la Scuderia and they retake their good years, as well. But saying that in any case, Alonso will take at max one more championship is too much, isn´t it?Originally posted by jokuvaan
I would predict that he wins max 1 more. Especially if he is going to retire way younger age than MS.
#97
V10 Fireworks
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 23:00
Most likely a Solberg - Raikkonen case I think. Subaru ~ Renault, Citreon ~ McLaren.
So only one for alonso for now, possibly two for Raikk in next years.
However it is highly probable Toyota will be fastest and best team and Jarno Trulli will win 4 WDCS.
So only one for alonso for now, possibly two for Raikk in next years.
However it is highly probable Toyota will be fastest and best team and Jarno Trulli will win 4 WDCS.
#98
jokuvaan
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 23:01
Tyres are most important performance factor and quite soon there will be only 1 maker so nobody has that sort of tyre advange.
#99
Bravo
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Posted 12 November 2005 - 23:49
Quite the oposite I would say. Ferrari has a preferece treatment from Bridgestone and I don't think they are going to lose this condition in the next years. Recall cases like McLaren and B∙A∙R scaping from Bridgestone. Actually I believe this is what will happen with a single (Bridgestone) tyre supplier. The boy in red will be very lucky in the future.Originally posted by jokuvaan
Tyres are most important performance factor and quite soon there will be only 1 maker so nobody has that sort of tyre advange.
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#100
jokuvaan
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Posted 13 November 2005 - 00:00
Maybe FIA will screw some teams and get goodyear or somebody to do the job more neutrally.
